Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir, #46 : Until the End of Time

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pani

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From reading through all this, I gather many feel that V/M would have been better served if they didn’t try and tell a story and just danced. No theme, no storyline, just pure glide and movement with the music. Thoughts?
And we will read about TS skated Mahler again. To be honest people never be happy with VM programs and skating.
 

Rafter

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From reading through all this, I gather many feel that V/M would have been better served if they didn’t try and tell a story and just danced. No theme, no storyline, just pure glide and movement with the music. Thoughts?
Which is what they did in 2014 and it didn't work.
 

Rafter

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I know many are fans of Tessa's present FD costume, but I'm not. While it's great for the first half, it doesn't work for me for the second half.

As I've said before, my big issue with this FD is that it doesn't make much sense without knowing the story of MR, which is a problem as MR isn't a movie everyone has seen. I'd like them to sit down and really examine what they're trying to show with this program, so that the performance can stand on its own even if you don't know the story.

What is Tessa's character in the beginning? Someone who is challenging Scott? Thinks she's too good for him? Is teasing him? Wants to know more about him? It's not very clear to me. For Scott, it looks like his character is someone who wants Tessa but can't get her. But does he love her? Or does he want to own her? Not clear to me.

Then there's the change to Come What May. What happens here? What changed in their relationship and why? How am I supposed to believe these characters have gone from a tango to a lyrical love story? It's a common trope, so it's not too hard to make most viewers get there, but right now, I'm not seeing it. I think that choreographically, there has to be a suggestion in the tango that there's a possibility of love between the two, and it's not just all about lust.

Then the end. Tessa looks triumphant in that last lift; it looks we've reached a happy ending for our characters. Then what the heck happened? Why is she falling all of a sudden? Was she sick the entire time? Why is this ending unhappily? It comes out of nowhere. Can there be a suggestion in the choreography somewhere earlier that this story isn't going to end well?

There's so much going on that it's hard to get sucked in to the story without falling out somewhere due to confusion. And I think that impacts the PCS because it's hard for the viewer to connect to what they're seeing.
I think you're being way too analytical/literal. What do you expect them to do when they only have 4 mins?

I get where they're going with the program. The fiery, dramatic beginning and transitioning to the more lyrical style. The program really showcases Tessa's dance training and versatility and also their musicality.

I suspect they chose MR strategically because apparently MR is hugely popular in South Korea. I also think they're trying to showcase their versatility both musically and dance movement-wise by skating to these two pieces.

As for the last lift looking triumphant. I'm not seeing that. To me it looks more like angst or pain...like she knows the end is near.
 
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kittysk8ts

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I should add @sap5, I hope you don't feel like I was picking on you! I do understand your meaning. I did not understand Pechalat/Bourzat's Le Petit Prince et sa Rose. I had to google that so I could understand the story because I personally was not understanding it via their interpretation/movement :) In contrast, I personally believe MR easily translates.
 
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chantilly

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You could pretty much say it about every FD.
I don't know what their story is or if they have a story
What about the Shibs, Libestraum, C and B.
P and C aren't attempting to sell a story at all? Is that better/worse.
I jus feel V and M are being held to a different standard.
 

iggie

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even if you knew nothing about moulin rouge and take the free dance for what it's worth, it makes sense:

there's them meeting. there's resistance, drama, sensuality, a fiery start. then there's love. they connect, it becomes soft and romantic. the final lift isn't triumphant for me. it's kinda sad. then she starts fainting and fainting and quickly dies.

plus, the entire free dance is narrated. each section has a song the explains what is going on in words, except for the end when it's just really dramatic, ominous music and still every one knows, she's fainting and dead.

in fact, if you know moulin rouge, the free dance makes little sense because in the movie, they're instantly in love, the drama is in the middle ... and to go in more detail, first love, then drama, then love, then another breakup, the fainting is all through the movie. they are constantly being threatened by outside forces and encouraged by other forces too, they are trying to make it work. then there's a big breakup, then a big reunion, then she's quickly gone. in fact, the tango's drama that they portray comes mostly from the prostitute and the argentinian. in that song, satine and chris aren't doing much. [edit: i've thought about it and if t/s started in the middle of the movie, then it's somewhat like the moulin rouge. it's not their entire love story, just the middle and the end. the story was bigger than this and they picked what could fit into a free dance]

for what it's worth, it's a beautiful dance. the three parts of it are clearly distinguished and obvious -- drama! love! dying!. the dance can stand on its own. it doesn't need a four page explanation of what's going on in order for you to say, "oh, okay, so that's what i'm seeing." it doesn't need the movie. it doesn't have to have the nuances and depth of a 2 hour ballet or the character development of a major movie ... it's just a 4 beautiful minute free dance.
 
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double runner

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You could pretty much say it about every FD.
I don't know what their story is or if they have a story
What about the Shibs, Libestraum, C and B.
P and C aren't attempting to sell a story at all? Is that better/worse.
I jus feel V and M are being held to a different standard.
I agree with you completely. As others have said, V/M are being scrutinized on a different level. I’m enjoying MR the more I watch it. Obviously I’m aware of the movie’s plot but that being said, I just enjoy their skating.
 

sap5

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From reading through all this, I gather many feel that V/M would have been better served if they didn’t try and tell a story and just danced. No theme, no storyline, just pure glide and movement with the music. Thoughts?
No, I think V/M should do the program they like. They have chosen a program that tells a story, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't think I'm being hypercritical or asking too much by simply asking for the story to make sense.

If they can show how the different parts of the story connect through the choreo and the performance, I think the FD will be amazing. It's just not there for me yet.
 

sap5

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for what it's worth, it's a beautiful dance. the three parts of it are clearly distinguished and obvious -- drama! love! dying!. the dance can stand on its own. it doesn't need a four page explanation of what's going on in order for you to say, "oh, okay, so that's what i'm seeing." it doesn't need the movie. it doesn't have to have the nuances and depth of a 2 hour ballet or the character development of a major movie ... it's just a 4 beautiful minute free dance.
I don't want a four page explanation. It should stand on its own with no explanation. For what it's worth, I've shown that dance to many of my friends, none of whom have seen MR the movie, and none of them understood what they were seeing. They saw 3 separate dances -- a tango, a romantic piece, and then an abrupt ending. TBH, the fact that she died in the end wasn't even clear. Some people thought she fainted; others thought she fell asleep.

I'm not trying to be mean here. I'm just posting what I'm seeing. Does any of this matter when it comes to scores? I think it does on some level, because when an audience is enthralled, the judges feel that too. I want that to happen, and I believe it can with a few changes. They've got the time to do that.
 

iggie

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i think it does. do you want me to bring out all the people who watched it and adore it and get it?

if you're trying to find answers about why it's stuck at 117 and p/c are maxing out, this isn't it.
 

sap5

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i think it does. do you want me to bring out all the people who watched it and adore it and get it?

if you're trying to find answers about why it's stuck at 117 and p/c are maxing out, this isn't it.
I'm glad that it makes sense to you. That doesn't make mine or others' opinions less relevant.

And I didn't say this is the answer. I just said I think this is one thing that could stand to be improved.
 

iggie

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well, the list of what you want for this free dance to work for you and your friends is massive and i doubt it can fit into a 4 minute program and i doubt you'd have asked any other team to do that -- t/s are legends, but unrealistic expectations are overwhelming sometimes.
 

sap5

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well, the list of what you want for this free dance to work for you and your friends is massive and i doubt it can fit into a 4 minute program and i doubt you'd have asked any other team to do that -- t/s are legends, but unrealistic expectations are overwhelming sometimes.
What list? I'm asking for one thing: adjust the choreography so that the pieces they already have fit better together.
 

Rafter

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No, I think V/M should do the program they like. They have chosen a program that tells a story, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't think I'm being hypercritical or asking too much by simply asking for the story to make sense.

yet.
No, I think V/M should do the program they like. They have chosen a program that tells a story, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't think I'm being hypercritical or asking too much by simply asking for the story to make sense.
But the program as it is does make sense as far as the story of Moulin Rouge goes. If the program didn’t follow the story of movie, then THAT wouldn’t make sense.
 

Rafter

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I don't want a four page explanation. It should stand on its own with no explanation. For what it's worth, I've shown that dance to many of my friends, none of whom have seen MR the movie, and none of them understood what they were seeing. They saw 3 separate dances -- a tango, a romantic piece, and then an abrupt ending. TBH, the fact that she died in the end wasn't even clear. Some people thought she fainted; others thought she fell asleep.
I think it’s very clear she’s dying at the end, based on the choreo and her positions, but also Scott’s expressions.

I don’t think we’ll see many changes to the program between now and Feb.
 

professordeb

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Quite frankly, I don't get why it is so important that their dance be a "story". As other have posted, do other teams tell a story with their skating? Off hand I can't think of any. So why then does the FD of V/M have to tell a story? Simply because their music was used in a movie? Does everyone else who has used this music held to the notion that they are skating to this particular story? If someone uses music that comes from a movie, do we automatically presume that they are skating to the storyline? Should we be so presumptious?
I am asking because I really would like to understand WHY dance presumes a story must be told, regardless of the music used. Remember Seasons? and how we got confused/changing stories of what it was supposed to be about? I mostly stayed confused about the "story" but I loved the skating.
And then there was Carmen! Did V/M perform the "generally accepted" story of Carmen? Nope! They ended their dance before the usual tragic end, choosing to tell only early part of the story and end it a triumphant Carmen ... before the bad stuff happens and she dies.
IIRC, they say that they chose the music because it represents them/resonates with them. Almost as if it has similarities to what they have experienced in their skating lives over the past 20 years. (I am likely paraphrasing this paragraph because I don't always recall the exact words but I try to remember the gist of it).
These two have a tendency to think outside the box and it works magnificently for them. Last year it was Prince for the SD and there was a lot of doubt as to whether or not it would work. It worked most excellently. For their FD they showed their "lyrical" side about the relationship between a man and a woman.
This season in the SD we get music from bands I considered more rock and roll than anything Latin and yet, they found music from those different groups and made it work without resorting to changing up the tempo of the music to fit the Latin rhythm! Again, out of the box thinking and then making it work -- well it works for me. Their FD just blows my mind away. From that first spin where Tessa throws herself backwards in Scott's arms to the tenderly way he holds her as she dies at music's end, I am enthralled and very much drawn into drama being performed for me. I don't care if there is a story being portrayed from a movie or just a story they are portraying about themselves and their relationship, I am always drawn into their programs. How they make the difficult look so easy still blows my mind away and yes, I have seen them live. Not recently but I just couldn't get over watching them skate, they made going to practices in freezing cold temps worth it.
Regardless of what music they skate to or who/what they are portraying, I am so thrilled that they have returned to competitive skating. They are the only reason I watch ID after taking a 2 year break. When they retire I think my interest in ID will wane and perhaps cease altogether. For me, they are a once in a generation type of team and I am so very glad to have watched them all these years.
 

Isabelle.G

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I think their decision to go for MR took by a surprise almost everyone. I wasn't extremely happy with that at first, but when I read or listen to their interviews and found out how convinced they seem to be with this program, I thought alright, let it be Moulin Rouge then. In my opinion, the free dance keeps getting better and better. Yes, for me too the three parts are put together quite abruptly, especially the ending. The message is clean, I'd say, but the death scene could be longer or there could be something that would point out more significantly what part of the story they're trying to express in that moment. The way the free dance is now, the last part seems too abrupt. Like they declared love to each other and then she dies in another moment. I know they have only 4 minutes, but there could be something preceding the final moment, that would make it more clear or even dramatic.
Let's not forget that they improved the first part tremendously since their first skating to it, I believe we'll see more details and perhaps even changes of the second part at the GPF. There's still enough time to grow and polish both of the programs. :)
 

Anyasnake

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They have to tell a story because it is one. If you think about it :

If they were skating to the first music only, they wouldn't have to try to sell a (movie) storyline. I can fin a dozens SP singles programs that are skating to Tango de Roxanne just for the tango part, the best one ever being Yuna Kim. Just portray power, passion, seduction games, etc.
Again, if just skating to Come What May : it's music for love, romance, 2 people finding each other. You don't need the MR storyline to go with it.

It's the linking of the 2 parts that makes it a story.

But I would dislike for them to just skate to one song only, it wouldn't make much sense.
For those still not convinced, the FD will come together. Stop torturing yourself.
And of course, they were not going with the lyrical/no storyline this year. First they'll be constantly compared to P/C since it's where they are the best. Also, The Seasons didn't worked out quite well for them. They were trying to sell a story too (IIRC in interviews, and it got confused), but they shouldn't have done that because it was not necessary. Did Malher had a particular storyline ? Or Carmen ? Because I don't know Carmen's story and I was surely convinced (If she were 100% healthy at the time, I think they would have done unbelievable things with with it).

Compare interviews for the FD 4 years ago : They LOVE MR so much, they didn't seem entirely conviced by Seasons. The difference is so striking.
How about evalutaing everything after GPF ? We'll have bigger crowds, better trained teams, programs changes and everything. Sometimes, it just take a little bit longer.
 

pani

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Didn't TS show, how love changed the Man and the Woman? And after all everyone wish "love to the end of times".
For me its interesting to know, what they could do in your opinion to show better first part connection with second? Just interesting to know.
 

sap5

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I don't think anyone is torturing themselves. I was just trying to start a discussion that was more interesting than what happened at V/M's comeback announcement two years ago.

As for connecting the two halves, I think it's just a matter of being a bit more nuanced in the choreo so that there's a bit more foreshadowing of what comes next. You can see they're trying to do that a bit in the tango, so I'm excited to see how it will be at GPF.
 

Goody2shoes

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Btw, sap5, discussion about the comeback announcement started on Dance Hall thread recently but no one ever told them to stop discussing it. Still if you don't find it interesting (or maybe in this case, boring) this is still a V/M thread where we pretty much are free to share or discuss issues we like/thought about. As much as I am excited about the costume changes and more tweaking of their programs, we are speculating on what those changes are/may be anyways. That too is becoming repetitive. Again, still good topic to discuss in the meantime.
 

puglover

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It is so amazingly wonderful to me that I can come to this thread - one devoted to my all-time favorite dance team - and read comments discussing their latest programs, costumes and all things Tessa and Scott. I personally think MR is a smart choice and for the first time at an Olympics they have a program that will help sell them - rather then the total responsibility resting on them. I think the average "once every 4 years" spectator will know and respond to the music but not be tired of it. I first discovered Tessa and Scott as more then names on a sheet at a divisional competition that my son skated pairs at when they were novice. I knew then they were something really special. My son, who is 2 years older then Scott, is married, has a son, and is a corporate lawyer about to become a partner in a large law firm. I mention this only because I think it puts in perspective the sacrifice in other pursuits that these young athletes make to pursue their passion. I wish all of us true fans could be together to witness their Olympic performances. Truly the end of an era for me but then I thought it had ended 4 years ago so I am grateful to relive it.
 

kittysk8ts

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It is so amazingly wonderful to me that I can come to this thread - one devoted to my all-time favorite dance team - and read comments discussing their latest programs, costumes and all things Tessa and Scott. I personally think MR is a smart choice and for the first time at an Olympics they have a program that will help sell them - rather then the total responsibility resting on them. I think the average "once every 4 years" spectator will know and respond to the music but not be tired of it. I first discovered Tessa and Scott as more then names on a sheet at a divisional competition that my son skated pairs at when they were novice. I knew then they were something really special. My son, who is 2 years older then Scott, is married, has a son, and is a corporate lawyer about to become a partner in a large law firm. I mention this only because I think it puts in perspective the sacrifice in other pursuits that these young athletes make to pursue their passion. I wish all of us true fans could be together to witness their Olympic performances. Truly the end of an era for me but then I thought it had ended 4 years ago so I am grateful to relive it.
Lovely post :) I am with you 100%
 

Goody2shoes

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It is so amazingly wonderful to me that I can come to this thread - one devoted to my all-time favorite dance team - and read comments discussing their latest programs, costumes and all things Tessa and Scott. I personally think MR is a smart choice and for the first time at an Olympics they have a program that will help sell them - rather then the total responsibility resting on them. I think the average "once every 4 years" spectator will know and respond to the music but not be tired of it. I first discovered Tessa and Scott as more then names on a sheet at a divisional competition that my son skated pairs at when they were novice. I knew then they were something really special. My son, who is 2 years older then Scott, is married, has a son, and is a corporate lawyer about to become a partner in a large law firm. I mention this only because I think it puts in perspective the sacrifice in other pursuits that these young athletes make to pursue their passion. I wish all of us true fans could be together to witness their Olympic performances. Truly the end of an era for me but then I thought it had ended 4 years ago so I am grateful to relive it.
That’s a great memory you get to treasure, puglover :) and congrats on your son’s success in making partner at the law firm.

For me, well, coming from a place where winter sports doesn’t exist and football(soccer) is pretty much a grand affair, it gets pretty lonely to be a fan of ice skating. An American friend introduced me to the sport of skating. So for a while i enjoyed skaters like Katarina witt, nancy kerrigan, Tara Lipinski, Michelle Kwan and the occasional pair couples (i enjoyed pairs then). But it wasn’t until she showed me Valse Triste, did i got really excited. Whereas before, i anticipated the smooth toe jumps, awesome throws, this time it was the whole package with V/M. It was just pure dance on skates. I dont know how to explain. Mesmerizingly breathtaking is probably a good word.

For a time, i watched ice dance and the variety of couples. But time and again, i couldn’t help but be drawn to this Canadian couple in particular. Something about them on ice and even off makes me think of what a great fortune/fate that they were paired together at such a young age. They simply just click.

For me, every season they would come with a program. And commit to it and always, in the end, made me believe in it. Yes, I do go through with misgivings thoughts when debut (for some, not all past programs) but knowing that they make it grow and evolve over the season is what keep me rooting for them. Today, i would revisit past programs and still feel excited about them. They simply put their own unique signature to them somehow.

On ice, they have chemistry, connection and awesome (both artistic & athletic/technical) skating skills. Off ice, they are really comfortable with each other. They are respectful, always complimentary towards each other, more than gracious of each others strengths as well as to the fans. This wholehearted trust, intuitiveness and genuine love for each other and the sport radiates from them.

Like so many of you here, over the years i am happy to be able to read your experiences and thoughts about them & their programs. It feels bittersweet and fleeting that just that I knew of them at the start of their Senoir circuit and now, they are soon to retire. (My eldest daughter is just starting to be a fan)

Still happy for them. Positive vibes and thoughts goes to them in the next couple of months...
 

Emdee

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Thanks Puglover and Goody2shoes for opening out your hearts to us. Puglover has been active on this board for awhile so is aware of all our collective angst at the machinations of both humans and fate.

Let us enjoy these last few months as true lovers of TS in its purest form without the comments that seem to have agendas. To those who have agendas would request you kindly go to the dance hall or elsewhere. Cannot stop anyone from coming here and creating discord but would appreciate you allowing us true blue fans some space.

TS really love MR and we know they will commit 100% to this journey.

As their song says

Come what may...
 

kittysk8ts

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Thanks Puglover and Goody2shoes for opening out your hearts to us. Puglover has been active on this board for awhile so is aware of all our collective angst at the machinations of both humans and fate.

Let us enjoy these last few months as true lovers of TS in its purest form without the comments that seem to have agendas. To those who have agendas would request you kindly go to the dance hall or elsewhere. Cannot stop anyone from coming here and creating discord but would appreciate you allowing us true blue fans some space.

TS really love MR and we know they will commit 100% to this journey.

As their song says

Come what may...
:cheer2:
 

Zazy

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I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. People will get stirred up by the movement matching the intensity and drama of the music and will fill in the blanks with their own feelings and thoughts that they get from the program and skating.
I feel figure skating fans generally put way too much emphasis on storylines when it isn't necessary. I agree the transition between the different parts of the program needs work but that's because there's too much of an abrupt change in styles which basically makes it 3 different programs. The story they're trying to tell in those 3 programs is irrelevant; it's dancing, not acting.
 

jl22aries

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We're getting close to 1000. I know it's not necessary anymore, but it's a fun ritual to start a new thread. What are all your thoughts?
 

RoseRed

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We need the right title. I can't think of anything right now. Tessa had a quote of the day "Dreams don't expire", which I kind of like with the recent discussion of them 'coming back', but I don't know
 
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