Tara Lipinksi's op-ed piece in NYT

[attyfan]

...

As for Tara's career ending injury, well... Michelle had one, too. Injuries are part of sports, and, in skating, nasty ones can happen doing doubles or having a freak fall out of a flying camel.

Michelle sustained her career ending injury as an adult. Tara OTOH had a career ending injuury at an age when she was too young to consent to medical treatment ... but IIRC she didn't begin to practice her triple loop combos until she was at least at the senior national level. Both of these are quite different than her recommendation that "young skaters" take more risks. That injuries can happen in any sport doesn't alter the fact that when the participants are young, you don't encourage the kids to increase the inherent danger!

 

[dramagrrl]

Wow, and they say Virtue and Moir Uber’s are bad. Time to move on folks.

I will start a skating message board on which, if you try to type the names "Papadakis and Cizeron", it will always come out as "P******** and C******", no matter what you do.

(This is a joke, and will only make sense to people who have been on this board since the EZ Board days, long long ago. )

 

[oleada]

I don’t think Tara is entirely wrong. USFS was late in adapting to IJS, and the national judges ignore under rotated jumps and rarely call edge calls. The jump content of the overall field at US Nationals was well below that of Russia or Japan. I think they were much quicker to adapt to IJS than we were. I think giving out bonuses for the tougher jumps is a step in the right direction.

 

[Allskate]

agree with Tara ... But I can still tell she has a hard time saying Michelle Kwan

She says "Michelle Kwan" in the first sentence. I saw an interview with Tara last week, and she said that she recently was on the same plane as Michelle and they shared a big hug. She said they had a "bond."

Having said that, I don't agree much with Tara's op-ed. Yes, risk should be rewarded, but not risk that doesn't lead to success and not to the exclusion of everything. IMO, there is too much reward for underrotated quads and quads with falls. I don't want to see a bunch of skaters falling or doing poor quality jumps. There were so many falls with the men last week. I suspect that casual fans watching on tv don't want to see that either. How many people enjoyed the relatively high-placing programs from Kolyada that didn't have good quads? I sure didn't.

If a program wouldn't impress me if it was performed with all doubles, then I think that's unfortunate. If skaters focus so much on jump risk, then they are not only risking more injury, but also probably spending less time developing other parts of their skating. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be quads or risk, but there needs to be more balance. Brian Orser was talking about this the other day. He said he makes sure to work with all of his skaters on the quality of their skating and he's not willing to increase the number of quads more because it would come at the expense of the rest of the program. Personally, I'd rather watch Javi's long program than Nathan's long program. (And before Nathan ubers jump on me, I was really happy to see him fight back in that long program, and I'm not saying that he can only do quads, but he was not great at anything else in that long program.)

 

[Lucy25]

They all do weight training. If you go on the USFS web site you will see suggested physical program and a photo of Nathan on the cable machine. I think Kristi was very fortunate that she remained relatively injury free and able to maintain high technical level. Some skaters seem more prone to injury than others.

Agreed. In a recent article, Michelle was asked what she would do differently during her career. She said she would have done more off-ice training to be stronger.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

No, they don't. Nathan didn't really do it until he started to get plagued with injuries. Hanyu was lacking in that department pre-Orser, and commented about how it changed how he felt on ice. There are MANY who I have interviewed in the past who talked about how they learned about off-ice training and how it was a revelation for them. I think that it's getting better, but I would say that it's not a given that all skaters do weight training... or any off-ice at all.

In my experience in the US, not all rinks or all coaches have off-ice programs. Those that do, the quality and content differs a lot. Most rinks don't have weights/machines - skaters would need to do that on their own.

Of the seven (yes, seven) rinks I skate at with some regularity, four have elite level coaches. All four of those have formal off ice programs. But at three of those rinks, the off ice programs are tied into your coach - if you are with a different coach, there's not an off ice program for you.

Three rinks (not all overlapping with the elite coaches) have weights. Of the three that have weights, two have gyms you'd need to join to use the weights, and one has a couple of weight machines off at the back of one of the rinks, along the side, behind some barriers that say no trespassing, so that one probably doesn't count.

 

[Yazmeen]

Agreed. In a recent article, Michelle was asked what she would do differently during her career. She said she would have done more off-ice training to be stronger.

IIRC, one of the issues that may have led to Tara's injury was her refusal to warm up before getting on the ice, she was just get out there and go.

 

[soogar]

No, they don't. Nathan didn't really do it until he started to get plagued with injuries. Hanyu was lacking in that department pre-Orser, and commented about how it changed how he felt on ice. There are MANY who I have interviewed in the past who talked about how they learned about off-ice training and how it was a revelation for them. I think that it's getting better, but I would say that it's not a given that all skaters do weight training... or any off-ice at all.

Nathan is only 18 years old. Weight training in general is not encouraged in athletes before puberty. Most coaches build strength in kids with body weight exercises. If you look at gymnastics, almost all of the conditioning involves body weight exercises like pull ups and rope climbing. Body weight exercises permit athletes to build strength and develop mobility and do not interfere with growth and development.

I don't know what Kristy did growing up, but all those videos of her in the weight room were taken when she was over 18 years old, I presume she had stopped growing.

Tessa Virtue was featured in a fitness magazine talking about her kettlebell routine. Madison Hubbel also talked about the changes her body went through after she started weight training.

 

[Vagabond]

Wow, and they say Virtue and Moir Uber’s are bad.

Give them twenty years.

With her op-ed, Tara joins the chorus of ex-skaters forced out of the sport due to overuse injuries that insist that the “technically difficulty” constantly needs to be upped.

Lipinski also artfully ignores the difference between the scoring system in her day and the scoring system now.

Under the current iteration of COP, skaters can achieve more points for Technical Elements than they can ever possibly achieve for Program Components, e.g., Nathan Chen's recent TES of 127.64 in the FS, as opposed to the highest possible PCS of 100. Under 6.0, where the absolute score wasn't as important as a skater's score relative to others', the highest possible technical and artistic marks were the same.

ETA: Thanks, @skatingguy.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

Nathan is only 18 years old. Weight training in general is not encouraged in athletes before puberty. Most coaches build strength in kids with body weight exercises. If you look at gymnastics, almost all of the conditioning involves body weight exercises like pull ups and rope climbing. Body weight exercises permit athletes to build strength and develop mobility and do not interfere with growth and development.

I don't know what Kristy did growing up, but all those videos of her in the weight room were taken when she was over 18 years old, I presume she had stopped growing.

Tessa Virtue was featured in a fitness magazine talking about her kettlebell routine. Madison Hubbel also talked about the changes her body went through after she started weight training.

It used to be the case that some people didn't feel that weight training was a good idea for teens, for the reasons you mentioned. The view on that has changed. They've realized that weight training for teens, under proper supervision, in the correct way (so not huge weights, etc. - a specific program for teens) is beneficial.

With that said, I'd like the training to be done under the supervision of someone who knows weight training for this age group, and not under a skating coach, *unless* that skating coach has had training in this. And I am talking teens, not younger kids.

For example, my local Y has programs for teens that involve weight training, but the teens follow a specific, supervised program. They aren't out there pounding weights.

 

[Wyliefan]

She says "Michelle Kwan" in the first sentence. I saw an interview with Tara last week, and she said that she recently was on the same plane as Michelle and they shared a big hug. She said they had a "bond."

Shh, you'll disrupt the narrative.

 

[skatingguy]

Lipinski also artfully ignores the difference between the scoring system in her day and the scoring system now.

Under the current iteration of COP, skaters can achieve more points for Technical Elements than they can ever possibly achieve for Program Components, e.g., Nathan Chen's recent TES of 109.69 in the FS, as opposed to the highest possible PCS of 100. Under 6.0, where the absolute score wasn't as important as a skater's score relative to others', the highest possible technical and artistic marks were the same.

Chen's technical score for the Free Skate was 127.64.
109.69 was Jin Boyang. The top six skaters all made more than 100 technically in the free skate, which is pretty remarkable considering it's been just over four years since that feat was first achieved.

 

[Vagabond]

The top six skaters all made more than 100 technically in the free skate, which is pretty remarkable considering it's been just over four years since that feat was first achieved.

Similar things are happening in the other disciplines, which use different factoring for the PCS. Lipinski makes it sound like the choice to go for greater technical content is up to the skaters, but, as long as they can score more TES than PCS, it's been made for them.

 

[Guinevere]

I thought Tara had problems with injuries because she wasn't doing proper conditioning? I seem to recall chatter about her not stretching properly before or after her practices? If so, then her injury can't really be attributed to higher difficulty of jumps, but not taking care of yourself.

 

[skatesindreams]

Could too much repetition of 3/3 jumps have contributed to Tara's injuries?
As I recall, there was speculation about this at the time.

 

[VGThuy]

I was wondering, did the international judges do a disservice to skaters like Mirai, Caroline, and Ashley when they gave them their junior success under IJS? Or did the USFS think their wins and medals there was enough of a sign that they'd be ready for the senior level once they were age eligible rather than analyzing their actual scores and realizing there was room for improvement technically speaking?

I also wonder why our Men generally tend to have pretty great and competitive skating skills and power while our Ladies do not. That's one thing I find glaring in U.S. ladies as a whole, more so than the lack of consistency in the jumps, is that just basic skating wise, they are at a real disadvantage. They just don't have the same glide and ability to do difficult transitions. I'm not even talking Med/Zagitova level but even the Japanese seem to move in and out of their elements with transitions with much more ease and flow than the American women are capable of. I actually think the lack of jump consistency goes hand-in-hand with that.

 

[MacMadame]

I thought Tara had problems with injuries because she wasn't doing proper conditioning? I seem to recall chatter about her not stretching properly before or after her practices?

There was chatter. That doesn't mean this is why she got injured. If you read the scientific literature, it's really hard to build a case for stretching before a workout as a form of injury prevention. In fact, if done before certain types of sports (and figure skating is one of them), stretching decreases power and therefore is considered detrimental.

There are other, better ways to warm up than stretching in the lobby.

 

[NadineWhite]

I'm glad I finally gave in & read this article, as personally I cannot stand watching Tara Lipiinski the commentator, but this article shows an intelligent, articulate, well rounded individual & writer. And I agree with everything she states. A competitor has to outsmart his rival(s), identify his/her strengths, and up the ante! And hope that when it comes time to take the biggest stage of their life ~ the Olympics ~ they have the skate of their life, with a touch of luck thrown in for good measure (aka "all the stars aligning just right").

Here's hoping to read more great articles from Tara...

 

[Justathoughtabl]

She says "Michelle Kwan" in the first sentence. I saw an interview with Tara last week, and she said that she recently was on the same plane as Michelle and they shared a big hug. She said they had a "bond."

She has talked about this on the podcast she has with Johnny. She said something like, "Do people realize it's been 20 years? Michelle and I are very friendly, we've hugged it out, and everything is fine between us." She said they had seen each other many times over the last 20 years, and there's no rivalry and no resentment. Skating fans just have that in their head. (She didn't say that last part. I added it.)

I get what Tara is saying, and she's right that under the current system, U.S. skaters have to keep upping their difficulty. But I don't like the current system. Only the very top skaters can balance the art and the technical content, and while you can say that everyone else should try to get to that level, the reality is that viewers end up watching a bunch of boring, artless quad and triple-triple attempts with little to no beauty and lots of falls. Skating competitions only get interesting when you get to the last group, or maybe the second-to-last. But I know my argument is nothing new or original. Just saying.

 

[gkelly]

Skating competitions only get interesting when you get to the last group, or maybe the second-to-last.

I found that to be largely true in the 6.0 era as well. There were occasional interesting performances in the lower rankings, but the majority were just technical exercises that may or may not have looked pretty. And once triple and harder jumps started driving results, there were a lot more falls.

The same was even true in the final group during the figures era, when it didn't take strong freeskating to make it to the final flight.

Of course, we might disagree about which specific programs were interesting or boring.

 

[Cachoo]

She has talked about this on the podcast she has with Johnny. She said something like, "Do people realize it's been 20 years? Michelle and I are very friendly, we've hugged it out, and everything is fine between us." She said they had seen each other many times over the last 20 years, and there's no rivalry and no resentment. Skating fans just have that in their head. (She didn't say that last part. I added it.)

I get what Tara is saying, and she's right that under the current system, U.S. skaters have to keep upping their difficulty. But I don't like the current system. Only the very top skaters can balance the art and the technical content, and while you can say that everyone else should try to get to that level, the reality is that viewers end up watching a bunch of boring, artless quad and triple-triple attempts with little to no beauty and lots of falls. Skating competitions only get interesting when you get to the last group, or maybe the second-to-last. But I know my argument is nothing new or original. Just saying.

Also what she probably could not say was "do you realize how lucky you were to have so many world class skaters at that time? Let us hope that the Russians don't punish A for having the nerve and talent to defeat Med.