Someday could a skater ever be considered best ever without an Olympic Gold

[bardtoob]

Cecilia Colledge
Dick Button
Tenley Albright
David Jenkins
Janet Lynn
Trixie Schuba
Denise Beillmann
Midori Ito
Tonya Harding
Michelle Kwan
Evgeni Plushenko
Patrick Chan
Yuzuru Hanyu

* I suspect MVO should be on the list, but I have only seen footage of her skating while coaching.
** How would have Laurance Owen developed?

 

[lala]

Currently the consensus best ever in each discipline- Gordeeva & Grinkov or Shen & Zhao in the pairs, Yu Na Kim, Katarina Witt, or Sonja Henie in the ladies, Hanyu or Dick Button in the mens, and Torvill & Dean, Gritshuk & Plato, or Virtue & Moir in ice dance all have Olympic Gold. In fact most have multiple Oly Golds, and those who dont have a OGM plus atleast 1 other medal. So currently and probably all the years prior to now there is no real example. However someday could a skater who fails to win Olympic Gold have a record and impact so astounding in all other ways they are most people's pick as best ever even without the Oly Gold medal? Or is this unrealistic to ever happen.

Even if you disagree with it need to mention Plushenko names.. I find it funny becaue you didn't mention him. Two Oly golds ( I know he has one individual gold) and two Oly silvers in 4 OGs aren't enough? Ridiculous. He was nominated in Philip Hersh' tweet as a GOAT and he received votings.

 

[znhurston]

Well, there are a lot of people who consider Kwan the best ever. I'm not sure what percentage it would be.

Kwan competed 12 times at worlds and either won or medaled 9 times. I think that warrants GOAT status.

 

[VGThuy]

Whether Kwan can be GOAT or not (I mean she did lose Nagano and people can say what they want about her being slower and more hesitant but she skated beautifully and the loss was more attributed to a judges' 6-3 split that could have reasonably gone the other way whereas SLC did slip out of her fingers with that triple flip error) I will say her longevity, competitive record, consistency, and ability to inspire a huge amount of skaters that came after her coupled with the way she was able to gain public notoriety, name recognition for a niche sport, a great financial nest egg, and fame for figure skating in the pre-social media days is something remarkable. She basically had a OGM career without the OGM. I know someone is going to say she was riding the wave of the post-whack hype, but she really made the best use of it and it's not like it was any guarantee that anybody else would have been able to reach the levels she did just because there was that opportunity.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Again it about consensus GOATs. I am sure there are some who consider Plushenko or Kwan the GOAT of their gender (mostly Russians for Plushenko and Americans for Kwan) but there are others who more people consider the best ever than them, thus they are not the consensus GOATs, if there is even such a thing.

Especially not Plushenko. Goodness most consider Yagudin best of Plushenko's own generation, he isn't even he best skater of his own era; Kwan atleast is probably that, how can he be the best ever yet only the 2nd best skater of his own era. And just among modern day skaters who have come since Hanyu has clearly surpassed him, and arguably Chan too. Who today still ranks Plushenko over Hanyu after his 2nd Olympic Gold? Maybe some diehards, but that is it. If one wants to pick him as their GOAT fine, but he is far from being most people's top choice which is what a consensus GOAT is. Just a few notes to remember:

1. Yagudin owned Plushenko head to head in big events.
2. Yagudin was just as strong a jumper and footwork master and bascic skater, but had much better choreography and packaging.
3. Yagudin won more world/Olympic titles than Plushenko competing in the same era, in a career less than half as long due to injury.
4. Yagudin had to beat a fellow first tier all time great like Plushenko to win all his titles. Plushenko had years with no real competitor and still couldn't catch Yagudin.

BTW almost nobody even considers Yagudin the best mens singles skater today.

 

[lala]

Again it about consensus GOATs. I am sure there are some who consider Plushenko or Kwan the GOAT of their gender (mostly Russians for Plushenko and Americans for Kwan) but there are others who more people consider the best ever than them, thus they are not the consensus GOATs, if there is even such a thing.

Especially not Plushenko. Goodness most consider Yagudin best of Plushenko's own generation, he isn't even he best skater of his own era; Kwan atleast is probably that, how can he be the best ever yet only the 2nd best skater of his own era. And just among modern day skaters who have come since Hanyu has clearly surpassed him, and arguably Chan too. Who today still ranks Plushenko over Hanyu after his 2nd Olympic Gold? Maybe some diehards, but that is it. If one wants to pick him as their GOAT fine, but he is far from being most people's top choice which is what a consensus GOAT is. Just a few notes to remember:

1. Yagudin owned Plushenko head to head in big events.
2. Yagudin was just as strong a jumper and footwork master and bascic skater, but had much better choreography and packaging.
3. Yagudin won more world/Olympic titles than Plushenko competing in the same era, in a career less than half as long due to injury.
4. Yagudin had to beat a fellow first tier all time great like Plushenko to win all his titles. Plushenko had years with no real competitor and still couldn't catch Yagudin.

BTW almost nobody even considers Yagudin the best mens singles skater today.

I'm tired of this.. I don't care about if you will like more Yagudin but you have many mistakes. I just want to correct it and I will write again and again if I read similar mistakes.

1. Please, if you write something check it that is true, or not. Yagudin lost to the very young Plushenko many times at ECHs, GPFs, and one time WCH and Yag wasn't Russian Champ never because Plush beat him all the time. All of these happened between Plush's 15-19 yo of age! When Yagudin retired Plushenko was only 19( he was born in November)!!! Yagudin was almost 3 years older. Thus they great rivals happened- the fs world mentioned it many times even today Plushenko was almost a kid.- Plus Plushenko competed in new system and could win not once. This says everything.

2. You learned these things on some forums but probably you never checked it. Plushenko had harder footworks in his career he is famous about it ( Many versions of Godfather, MJ SP, Tango and Flamenco SP, the Tribute to Nijinsky LP's footwork, or the last footwork in Sochi's SP, etc) . He was the first skater who received 3 level for his fotowork in new system. I know Yag's Winter footwork is famous but that is not too hard. And Yag wasn't better spinner as Plush, this is obvious. Maybe Yag has better choreography but that is matter of taste and that don't make him better skater. Plushenko was the innovator Yag copied his combinations if he wanted to be competitive with Plush. Plush had much more 60.s for his presentation if we test their same period. ( Yag 1996-2002 and Plush 1998-2004) Plushenko had 75 6.0s Yag had not so many.. Plushenko had more than Michelle Kwan( 58) Can you imagine that?LOL! Any other things?

3. Of course, Yag won. Everything came from their age differences. They competed together once at OG and Yag won. But you don't forget that was Yag's second OG he was 5th on the first. SLC was the first of Plush and he was 2nd. I mention for you again when they competed together Plush was almost a kid, Yag had 2 seasons! advantage. That is big! So their rival praises much more Plush than Yag because the 15-16. y. o. kid was the greatest rival of the new world champion Yag (since 1998). Can you mention another skater who did similar thing who had similar results before him? No.

4. I answered you to your first sentence. He could catch Yag not once. LOL! Yag was a real great skater, one of the bests, he won everything for 6 years. Yes. But for me that is greater who can be on the top for 16 years (1998 15.y.o- 2014 31 y.o.) almost on same level. Can you tell me another one? No?. No, of course.
Did not he have opponents? Brian Joubert, Daisuke Takahashi, Stephane Lambiel, Timothy Goeble, Evan Lysachek,Michael Weiss, Takeshi Honda, Jeffrey Butle, Johnny Weir..

These things, his longevity, results (2 Oly golds, 2 Oly silvers, 3 WCh golds, 4 GPF golds, 7 ECH golds,18 Gp golds, 10 Russian Champ titles plus some silvers and bronzes) records ( under the Code of Points system, he has set 13 world record scores 5 in the short program, 4 in free skating, and 4 in the combined total), and achievements make him one of the GOATs, thus we need to mention him in similar thread despite anybody like his skating or don't.. And he was mentioned as a GOAT many times especially before Hanyu's second victory.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Let me put it this way. Post Pyeongcheng when the discussion about if Hanyu was now the best ever came up the names mentioned as a counter were Button, Curry, and to a couple people Boitano due to his longevity and amazing pro career. Plushenko's name hardly ever came up that I saw. Nobody said 'oh Hanyu isn't the best ever yet, it is still Evgeni Plushenko.'

 

[lala]

Let me put it this way. Post Pyeongcheng when the discussion about if Hanyu was now the best ever came up the names mentioned as a counter were Button, Curry, and to a couple people Boitano due to his longevity and amazing pro career. Plushenko's name hardly ever came up that I saw. Nobody said 'oh Hanyu isn't the best ever yet, it is still Evgeni Plushenko.'

Did you hear every commentator in the world?? Did you read every article in the world? No? Probably you are American this is the reason why you didn't heard it. Otherwise Michael Weiss said Plushenko is the GOAT after Hanyu's second victory.

But don't get me wrong I didn't say Plushenko is the GOAT ( even he didn't think it he supports Hanyu so loudly and says he is the best ever), I just said everybody needs to mention him in the "one of the GOAT's" list. That's all.

I recommend you this video, I find it funny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYHXBZAfp9w - The Trick That's Changing Men's Figure Skating - Tipical American brainwashing video..They totally forgot 2010 . The Americans always diminished Plush. Maybe he should have accepted the offer from a American Fs club when he was young and moved there...

 

[savchenkoboss]

So Michael Weiss thinks Plushenko is the GOAT? Wow I am sold, Plushenko is the consensus GOAT, end of discussion, LOL!

PS- Plushenko has Olympic Gold so even if he were the best ever he means nothing to this topic anyway. Others brought up examples of people who some atleast might consider as the GOAT without Olympic individual Gold- Browning, Chan, Duhamel & Radford, Kwan, Papadakis & Cizeron. You instead are fighting a skater who won Olympic Gold by 27 points, irrelevant to the topic even if he were the GOAT.

 

[Sonata]

Personally I think of Kurt Browning fits the bill, due to the breadth of his legacy in both the technical and artistic areas of figure skating.
On the technical side, he is the first man to successfully complete a quadruple combination in competition and do three triple-triple combos in the same program. He did an extremely difficult triple-triple combo (triple salchow triple loop) at Olympics when this was still uncommon. His intricate footwork, with changes of direction, showed his mastery of skating skills and still holds up now. Artistically, his character-based programs, like Casablanca,was emulated many times over by generations of skaters after him. Choreographically, he presented complete programs that were well balanced and contained difficult entries to jumps and variations in spins. In terms of titles and duration of influence, he is a four time world champion (uncommon at the time) and somehow was well known enough to crack the American market (Diet Coke commercial?? I still remember it). He also continues to mentor skaters to this day.

He might not necessarily be one of the first names mentioned when we speak of legend, but his influence on the sport twenty years later speaks to me of his legacy as one of the GOATs.

 

[attyfan]

IMO, there is a distinction between GOATs and GOTEs (Greatest Of Their Era). Kurt Browning and Michelle Kwan are definitely GOTEs even if not GOATs. I also believe that figure skating is unusually difficult to pick a GOAT, simply because the sport has changed so much and it is too difficult to compare over different eras (i.e., pre-Olys jump inventors vs. quadsters).

 

[giselle23]

Kwan competed 12 times at worlds and either won or medaled 9 times. I think that warrants GOAT status.

And she won 5 times and medaled 4. 3 of the 4 non-gold medals were silver.

 

[VGThuy]

And since the 1995-1996 season to 2004 Worlds Kwan never placed lower than second at any GP, Nationals, GPF, and Worlds competition with the exception of 1996 Centennial on Ice, 2001 Skate Canada, and the 2002 Olympics where she placed third.

 

[UGG]

Kwan was on the podium every event she entered starting fall 1995 up until worlds 2005 where she was 4th and her career ended due to injury. People view her Olympics as a disappointment but she skated great in 1998 and even with mistakes in 2002 wasn’t she one 2nd place ordinal in the LP away from winning?

 

[PDilemma]

The problem with using the OGM to judge a skater's entire career is that the damn thing is more or less about timing. Essentially of birth, no less.

Seriously, had the change of years for the Winter Olympics not happened when it did, would Lipinski have an OGM? She wasn't ready yet in 1996 (15th at Worlds in her debut) and was done due to injury by 2000. You can claim that they would have trained differently to peak later or whatever--but that injury was going to take her down by 2000 no matter what. It's all timing. Zagitova was timing. If the Olympics had been a year ago, she would not have an OGM and Med likely would. (Or again, let's say the change for Winter Games never happened and they were in 2016). And I'll eat my laptop if she's there and medaling in 2022.

 

[savchenkoboss]

The problem with using the OGM to judge a skater's entire career is that the damn thing is more or less about timing. Essentially of birth, no less.

Seriously, had the change of years for the Winter Olympics not happened when it did, would Lipinski have an OGM? She wasn't ready yet in 1996 (15th at Worlds in her debut) and was done due to injury by 2000. You can claim that they would have trained differently to peak later or whatever--but that injury was going to take her down by 2000 no matter what. It's all timing. Zagitova was timing. If the Olympics had been a year ago, she would not have an OGM and Med likely would. (Or again, let's say the change for Winter Games never happened and they were in 2016). And I'll eat my laptop if she's there and medaling in 2022.

Nobody considers Lipinski or Zagitova the best ever though. They aren't even in contention for it. So a better example to show your point would be to pick a true legend who this applies to (if there even is one).

 

[savchenkoboss]

Personally I think of Kurt Browning fits the bill, due to the breadth of his legacy in both the technical and artistic areas of figure skating.
On the technical side, he is the first man to successfully complete a quadruple combination in competition and do three triple-triple combos in the same program. He did an extremely difficult triple-triple combo (triple salchow triple loop) at Olympics when this was still uncommon. His intricate footwork, with changes of direction, showed his mastery of skating skills and still holds up now. Artistically, his character-based programs, like Casablanca,was emulated many times over by generations of skaters after him. Choreographically, he presented complete programs that were well balanced and contained difficult entries to jumps and variations in spins. In terms of titles and duration of influence, he is a four time world champion (uncommon at the time) and somehow was well known enough to crack the American market (Diet Coke commercial?? I still remember it). He also continues to mentor skaters to this day.

He might not necessarily be one of the first names mentioned when we speak of legend, but his influence on the sport twenty years later speaks to me of his legacy as one of the GOATs.

I agree if there is a skater in any discipline who might be the GOAT in their discipline without the Olympic Gold medal it would be Browning. However I hear more people say Hanyu, Curry, Button (or I guess if you ask lala and his friends Plushenko, LOL, jk) then say Browning so even he wouldn't really qualify for the consensus part, but he is probably the closest example until P&C add to their string of world titles before their inevitable OGM actualy happens in 2022.

 

[lala]

I agree if there is a skater in any discipline who might be the GOAT in their discipline without the Olympic Gold medal it would be Browning. However I hear more people say Hanyu, Curry, Button (or I guess if you ask lala and his friends Plushenko, LOL, jk) then say Browning so even he wouldn't really qualify for the consensus part, but he is probably the closest example until P&C add to their string of world titles before their inevitable OGM actualy happens in 2022.

If somebody doesn't want to be ridiculous will mention Plushenko names as one of the greatests because of his results only. His results make him one of the greatests in the figure skating history, in the sport history regardless of what thinks about this an insignificant, biased, North American poster on a figure skating forum.

The other things is just start with this word: "if" which makes no sense in any sports. LOL!

 

[bardtoob]

I think it easy to call some one GOAT when they excel in way that preserves or enhances the sport in an exceptional way.

 

[savchenkoboss]

If somebody doesn't want to be ridiculous will mention Plushenko names as one of the greatests because of his results only. His results make him one of the greatests in the figure skating history, in the sport history regardless of what thinks about this an insignificant, biased, North American poster on a figure skating forum.

The other things is just start with this word: "if" which makes no sense in any sports. LOL!

Yes Mrs. Plushenko, whatever you say Mrs. Plushenko.

 

[Polaris]

Nobody considers Lipinski or Zagitova the best ever though. They aren't even in contention for it. So a better example to show your point would be to pick a true legend who this applies to (if there even is one).

The topic is whether a skater can be considered a GOAT without an OGM, not whether an OGM makes you a GOAT.

These are two different topics.

As for the original topic, I say no. Without the OGM, you can't make a complete case for a skater being the GOAT. You can debate all you want about how OGMs depend on luck and what not, but that's the OGM for you.

If Kwan had the OGM, there wouldn't need to be so many posts defending why she is still great despite not having an OGM. It'd be an open and shut case.

Likewise, if Chan had won the OGM, his standing in the skating pantheon would be different.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I personally wouldn't consider Kwan the best ever even with the OGM, although many more probably would. Her record on paper would now be better than someone like Yu Na Kim and Mao Asada, even if only Kim lost in one of the biggest highway robberies ever see in sport in Sochi but still is what it is. Of course it isn't only about your record anyway as otherwise everyone would be saying Sonja Henie is the GOAT and Katarina Witt the GOAT of modern day skaters. For me one requirement to be the best ever is if you can imagine said skater having a winning record vs other greats in their mutual primes. I have little doubt Kwan in the same era as say Yu Na Kim, Kwan loses a vast majority of the head to head meetings (and I am not a fan of either so have no horse there, it is just what I honestly feel), atleast under IJS, under 6.0 it might be closer to 50-50, so based on that alone I would have a hard time picking her as GOAT, but that is just me. I also think she loses more than she wins against Asada, again atleast under IJS, although Asada was more inconsistent so that one would probably be closer. She even lost more often than she won vs Lipinski and Slutskaya in their primes (Lipinski 97-98, Slutskaya 2000 until her retirement), so how can I imagine she would win more often than not vs a fellow actual real great/all time legend with all due respect to Lipinski and Slutskaya.

Chan is a little different. Before 4+ quads became mandatory I could see him maybe having a winning record vs anyone of the last 25 years or so (beyond that the sport was too different to accurately even make an educated guess on that), including maybe even the great Hanyu, especialy since Hanyu is more inconsistent than Chan in his prime was. However in an era like today where 4+ quads are mandatory, he definitely loses much more often than not to someone like Hanyu and possibly a younger version transported to this era with modern training methods/coaching Plushenko, even in his prime. So in Chan's case that hypothetical depends almost entirely which exact era he is skating in.

It is the same reason I have a hard time picking Virtue & Moir as the GOAT. Their head to head against Davis & White is close to 50-50, I believe they might be barely ahead, but not by much. At their all time peak, clearly even according to their own ardent fans far better than they were both in 2009-2010 and 2012-2014, their previous other primes, they were still also struggling and evenly matched with a baby non prime version of Papadakis & Cizeron, who are only going to get a lot better from here. That is not to mention P&C being in an awful slump and in their worst form ever in the 2016-2017 season if we are being real so if we are being realistic we should toss out all the results from that season in a realistic evaluation of even non prime/very young P&C vs peak V&M as that was below even the typical standard of non prime/young P&C. If you look only at their 2017-2018 meetings non prime baby P&C went 1-1 vs all time peak V&M and won 3 of 4 programs, and had higher scores throughout the year, even if V&M won the big meeting. How could I believe they would have a winning record against many of the other GOATs, based on that. Again for me envisioning quite possibly/likely having a winning record against all other greats, atleast all other greats in relatively the same time frame, is a must to be the GOAT. If I cant envision that I cant even think of that person/team as the GOAT.

 

[savchenkoboss]

The topic is whether a skater can be considered a GOAT without an OGM, not whether an OGM makes you a GOAT.

These are two different topics.

As for the original topic, I say no. Without the OGM, you can't make a complete case for a skater being the GOAT. You can debate all you want about how OGMs depend on luck and what not, but that's the OGM for you.

If Kwan had the OGM, there wouldn't need to be so many posts defending why she is still great despite not having an OGM. It'd be an open and shut case.

Likewise, if Chan had won the OGM, his standing in the skating pantheon would be different.

Yes exactly. Many are confusing whether you need an OGM to be the best ever (personally I am not a fan of the best ever concept to begin with, but I realize many are) for those who deem it necessary to pick a best ever, with an OGM making a legend or a GOAT. The two are not the same at all.

And as one previous poster said of course MANY non OGM winners can be ranked above many OGM winners. That is not the same as being the consensus GOAT without an OGM.

 

[PDilemma]

Nobody considers Lipinski or Zagitova the best ever though. They aren't even in contention for it. So a better example to show your point would be to pick a true legend who this applies to (if there even is one).

So let's say that Med sticks around, picks up a few more World titles and is beaten by another 15 year old phenom in the next Olympics. Had there been an Olympic games in 2016, she wins the OGM. But say she retires without one (and I think this scenario is more likely than not) but with 4 or 5 World titles. Is she then not in the conversation because of the bad luck of birth meaning that her phenom years didn't coincide with an Olympic game?

And that exact thing describes Kwan.

 

[savchenkoboss]

So let's say that Med sticks around, picks up a few more World titles and is beaten by another 15 year old phenom in the next Olympics. Had there been an Olympic games in 2016, she wins the OGM. But say she retires without one (and I think this scenario is more likely than not) but with 4 or 5 World titles. Is she then not in the conversation because of the bad luck of birth meaning that her phenom years didn't coincide with an Olympic game?

And that exact thing describes Kwan.

Medvedeva's skating is unmemorable. For that alone she isn't in contention IMO. Plus the fact she skated her absolute best at the Olympics and still lost to a 15 year old girl with iffy artistic skills to boot (ironically that last part also applies to Kwan).

In Kwan's case the combination of not winning the Olympics and winning the Grand Prix final only once makes it more clear she isn't in contention. At 2 of the 3 biggest events in the sport she isn't even close to being one of the best ever, only at one (worlds) is she up there and even there she is far from the most dominant per say, her 5 titles is almost strictly due to longevity (which is in part due to the lack of an OGM in the first place). That alone would take her out of serious consideration for being GOAT IMO. Then you have an event like Four Continents, she never even skated there. So really other than worlds where was she even dominant, especialy relative to other greats. Of course my opinion isn't important, the consensus opinion is, like how for instance I don't consider V&M as the GOAT at all, or even top 3 probably, but inspite of my opinion they are atleast close to the consensus GOAT along with maybe T&D, but that obviously doesn't apply to Kwan, Browning, Papadakis & Cizeron (yet) or any skater with no OGM, even the better suggestions of this thread thus far . I mentioned on Virtue & Moir's thread one reason I don't consider them the best ever is they won the Grand Prix final only once, and while unlike Kwan, Browning, and others being talked about here, V&M had a lot of GOAT votes, a lot of the people who didnt vote for them agreed with me on that point; and yet they have 2 (or 3 technically) Olympic Golds, so with that said just imagine somone who only won it once plus never winning the far more important Olympics on top of that being GOAT, LOL!

For Medvedeva the Grand Prix final part doesn't apply, but her skating just isn't memorable the way Kwan, Kim, Asada, Witt, Ito, and tons of others are. She just wins big titles by skating smart to collect points and being consistent, but there is nothing breathtaking about her even at her best. And if you look at the youtube comments below her videos of even her best skates, you will see a lot of people feel the same way. Some of her videos in 2016 had more dislikes
than likes for awhile, even for perfect skates, how embarrassing is that for the so called queen of the ice.

I think after reading all the responses in this thread it is pretty much settled the best chance of that happening is Papadakis & Cizeron if they win the next 2/3 worlds, prior to the 2022 Olympics. They might become the first non OGM winner to be the consenus GOAT of their discipline at that point. Even then, it would likely be very short lived, as their inevitable OGM barring a major crash would be waiting at the 2022 Games, thus removing them from the category. The best case in any discipline right now as it is, based on all the responses, is probably Browning, but even his isn't a very good one.

 

[Marco]

Without the OGM, you can't make a complete case for a skater being the GOAT. You can debate all you want about how OGMs depend on luck and what not, but that's the OGM for you.

That's like saying you don't deserve to be world or Olympic champion if you do not have a quad.

 

[attyfan]

Nobody considers Lipinski or Zagitova the best ever though. They aren't even in contention for it. So a better example to show your point would be to pick a true legend who this applies to (if there even is one).

Most of the founders of the sport (such as Jackson Haines and the majority of the people who invented the jumps) made their contributions before figure skating was an Oly sport ... Are you saying that these critical people can't be GOATs because they don't have OGMs? Or are they no longer true legends?

 

[berthesghost]

Considering how much effort has been spent on P&C vs V&M, I don’t think any of this GOAT talk is about Rittberger, Paulson or Salchow.

 

[VGThuy]

If this was just ten years ago, this whole thread would only be about Michelle Kwan with a bit of Kurt Browning, Irina, etc. sprinkled in.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Most of the founders of the sport (such as Jackson Haines and the majority of the people who invented the jumps) made their contributions before figure skating was an Oly sport ... Are you saying that these critical people can't be GOATs because they don't have OGMs? Or are they no longer true legends?

Well if we are being realistic only the diehards, like most of us who post here, even know who Jackson Haines is. So tragically he could never be close to the consensus GOAT anyway as casual skating fans (who still are the vast majority just like casual tennis fans, casual Survivor fans, etc...) dont even know he or such similar people exist. So my answer to that would be yes they cant be, as they clearly arent anything like the consensus GOAT with only diehards even knowing about them. The true legends part of course, but I never once said anywhere in this thread you cant be a true legend without an OGM, there are many of those.