Should women be allowed to do a quad in the SP?

[Karen-W]

?‍ I think the likelihood of this happening is as good as the likelihood of increasing the age minimum to 16 is. But, then again, maybe some feds would be willing to make that tradeoff.

 

[Marco]

Allow it. Why not?

 

[VGThuy]

Why not? Things can’t be more predictable than they are now.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I will say this because ANL is nothing if he isn’t fair.

Lets allow the quad in the short program but I want the age limit for seniors raised to 18. I want to see actual women in women’s figure skating (Loena, Satoko, Amber) not girls or teenyboppers and that’s how it’s becoming in my opinion.

#truth

And let them do all the quads they want in juniors as well

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

?‍ I think the likelihood of this happening is as good as the likelihood of increasing the age minimum to 16 is. But, then again, maybe some feds would be willing to make that tradeoff.

Lol I’m going through other peoples replies now, look what my previous reply is about. Lol

 

[SpeedySucks]

No.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

I will permit multiple quadruple jumps in the short program as long as scoring is weighted accordingly:

40% compulsory figures
10% short program
50% free skating

See? I'm more flexible and modern than you think.

-BB

 

[bardtoob]

I don't think there should be different rules between the ladies and men's competition now.

I mean we are already at the natural extension to that, which is well known, that females that keep a slender 12-16 year old build (by keeping a very low body fat, which holds off a natural voluptuous mature build) can basically perform the same tricks as a slender 17-24 year old man.

The only female skater I find at all interesting from Russia is Tuktamysheva because her work with Mishin is true scientific development of technique that is generalizable to all skaters.

 

[antmanb]

We aren't anywhere close to half of the field landing quads in the FS. Once we hit that threshold then we can discuss whether or not it should be allowed in the SP.

They changed the SP rules to allow a 3A when basically only Asada was landing a 3A (was there any other woman doing the jump in competition). There are considerably more skaters attempting quads now than were attempting 3As then.

There had also been occasional not clean attempts by other skaters on rare occasions, including salchow and lutz, but not necessarily internationally.

Don't forget Michael Weiss attempting 4Lz at the Nagano Olympics in 1998. I don't know if he attempted it all season long in his FS but I definitely remember him falling on it at the opening of his LP in Nagano.

 

[gkelly]

They changed the SP rules to allow a 3A when basically only Asada was landing a 3A (was there any other woman doing the jump in competition). There are considerably more skaters attempting quads now than were attempting 3As then.

Yukari Nakano had been doing it in the late 00s, so she was probably on the minds of those proposing the rule change. But she retired in 2010.

Still, only skaters from one country.

Don't forget Michael Weiss attempting 4Lz at the Nagano Olympics in 1998. I don't know if he attempted it all season long in his FS but I definitely remember him falling on it at the opening of his LP in Nagano.

I was remembering his US Nationals attempt but wasn't remembering whether he had attempted it internationally that year.

 

[MsZem]

Yukari Nakano had been doing it in the late 00s, so she was probably on the minds of those proposing the rule change. But she retired in 2010.

Still, only skaters from one country.

Well, Meissner was credited with a 3A once.

 

[On My Own]

Well, Meissner was credited with a 3A once.

Meissner only ever landed it nationally, once in 2005. I don't think she was on the minds of the people writing the rules for the 2010-11 season...

 

[antmanb]

Even if we say that three women were landing 3As at the time the rule was changed for the SP. I can, off the top of my head, name six currently competing senior women who have been credited with landing quads (7 if you count Tursynbaeva which seems fair if we're counting Miessner in the 3A rule change), and that's not knowing all the russian senior skaters up from juniors...to say nothing of the junior skaters (who i don't follow). Not allowing quads seems unnecessarily punitive and unfair. And yes the PCS need to be factored the same as the men.

 

[screech]

If they allow quads in he SP, they REALLY need to adjust the PCS factoring - if they're going to do the same tech as the men, they should get the same PCS.

If the PCS factoring had been equal, Valieva would have basically tied with Nathan Chen in the FP at Skate Canada.

If quads are allowed in the SP, it will be claimed to be 'unfair' to those who can't do them. But it will push them! Many skaters couldn't do 3/3 when they started being done in the SP. Most couldn't do 3A when it started...
Our current world champion didn't land a quad or attempt a 3A when winning her title. Our current world silver medalist doesn't do quads. Our current bronze medallist didn't do a 3A. 4th-6th at Worlds didn't do quads Or 3A, but somehow manage to stay competitive with the rest of the field.

I think that quads should be allowed AND the pcs factoring should be equal to mens.

 

[Cachoo]

I will say this because ANL is nothing if he isn’t fair.

Lets allow the quad in the short program but I want the age limit for seniors raised to 18. I want to see actual women in women’s figure skating (Loena, Satoko, Amber) not girls or teenyboppers and that’s how it’s becoming in my opinion.

#truth

And let them do all the quads they want in juniors as well

This is an interesting point. Do you believe more mature skaters will be able to do quads or will it remain a certain body type and a certain age? Last year at Worlds I found Loena and Karen—just off the podium—more complete with their triples and their artistry. And the revolving door in Russia is depressing. I’d like to see
some of these skaters beyond their teenage years. I don’t have any answers…just questions.

 

[gkelly]

If the age limit is raised to 18 and juniors are allowed to do quads (at least in the free skate, as is already the case), then I'd expect to see more quads among the junior than the senior women.

And more juniors who burn out physically, or from the cutthroat competition in deep fields, before they ever reach senior age.

Fans of women pushing athletic limits will probably prefer watching the juniors.

I don't know whether it would be good to showcase the junior jump feats for the general public, or whether that would only put more pressure on those kids and make it less likely for most to survive in the sport until seniors.

Also, the age had better be raised to the same age for men as well as women, but fewer junior men would be outjumping the senior men.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

This is an interesting point. Do you believe more mature skaters will be able to do quads or will it remain a certain body type and a certain age? Last year at Worlds I found Loena and Karen—just off the podium—more complete with their triples and t

I’m not sure if they will or won’t but La Tuk is able to do triple axels and supposedly a quad. Its just if I’m gonna sit down to watch a women’s competition I’d like to see women then.

 

[briancoogaert]

Please no.
Russians are already receiving undeserved high PCS (in the SP and LP) because they can do quads... It will kill the competition.
I agree to allow quads in the SP only of the PCS are reflecting the actual skating, and not the fact that you can do or not a quad (it's already in the TES !)

 

[Deleted member 80234]

I don't think there should be different rules between the ladies and men's competition now.

I mean we are already at the natural extension to that, which is well known, that females that keep a slender 12-16 year old build (by keeping a very low body fat, which holds off a natural voluptuous mature build) can basically perform the same tricks as a slender 17-24 year old man.

The only female skater I find at all interesting from Russia is Tuktamysheva because her work with Mishin is true scientific development of technique that is generalizable to all skaters.

But at what cost do you keep that build & low body fat? There is a risk of young adult osteoporosis and there may be an unseen impact from the girls that try and fail - some girls will have a body type where they can do this and stay strong but others who dedicate themselves to the sport for years and try unhealthy things to keep themselves at low body fat may disappear from the public eye. I’m not an expert on it by any means but I wonder how much of that goes on. What about raising point values of non jump technical elements?

 

[bardtoob]

But at what cost do you keep that build & low body fat? There is a risk of young adult osteoporosis and there may be an unseen impact from the girls that try and fail - some girls will have a body type where they can do this and stay strong but others who dedicate themselves to the sport for years and try unhealthy things to keep themselves at low body fat may disappear from the public eye. I’m not an expert on it by any means but I wonder how much of that goes on. What about raising point values of non jump technical elements?

There is no additional cost at this time because the skaters can already do it. It's just the rules preventing them.

You are right, it is not healthy. However, the current differences in the rules between men and ladies do not actually create a great enough contrast to drive the sport in a better direction.

 

[Deleted member 80234]

There is no additional cost at this time because the skaters can already do it. It's just the rules preventing them.

You are right, it is not healthy. However, the current differences in the rules between men and ladies do not actually create a great enough contrast to drive the sport in a better direction.

But if the jump values are already high, doesn’t allowing quads in the short make the impact of being able to do quads even higher? If you wanted to make it so that quads had less value compared to other technical elements, could you raise the technical value of step sequences, spins, and triples relative to quads?

 

[bardtoob]

But if the jump values are already high, doesn’t allowing quads in the short make the impact of being able to do quads even higher? If you wanted to make it so that quads had less value compared to other technical elements, could you raise the technical value of step sequences, spins, and triples relative to quads?

I think having the same rules for men and ladies and increasing the value of elements relative to jumps can both be done together or be done independently.

I also think it's funny that everybody assumed making the rules the same for men and ladies means changing the ladies rules rather than changing the rules for men. We could restrict the jumps men do.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Please no.
Russians are already receiving undeserved high PCS (in the SP and LP) because they can do quads... It will kill the competition.
I agree to allow quads in the SP only of the PCS are reflecting the actual skating, and not the fact that you can do or not a quad (it's already in the TES !)

It won't kill it. Everyone else will catch up. Them they will refine it artistically and so on.

 

[Marco]

Please no.
Russians are already receiving undeserved high PCS (in the SP and LP) because they can do quads... It will kill the competition.
I agree to allow quads in the SP only of the PCS are reflecting the actual skating, and not the fact that you can do or not a quad (it's already in the TES !)

It's a different problem really. Russians are already receiving undeserved high PCS (in the SP and LP) even though they cannot do quads in the SP yet. So it's not the quads that is affecting the PCS. It's just poor PCS judging all along, with or without quads (e.g. Liza does not have a quad).

 

[Marco]

But if the jump values are already high, doesn’t allowing quads in the short make the impact of being able to do quads even higher? If you wanted to make it so that quads had less value compared to other technical elements, could you raise the technical value of step sequences, spins, and triples relative to quads?

Should GOEs for non-jump elements be worth more (% to BV) than for jumps?

If ISU regards difficulty first, they may support jump GOEs to be worth more / as much as non-jump GOEs. This is quite logical. However, if ISU would like to encourage non-jump element quality, they may consider rewarding more absolute value (% to BV) for non-jumps just like what they currently do to the ChSq. This way, jumping beans would also need to pay more attention to spins and steps and not just gloss over them thinking they have a 2 quad advantage. Also, this way skaters who simply don't have the quads can have a way to narrow the gap.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Uggggg