Question About Quad Throw in Pairs Skating

[brennele]

Can someone please explain to me what is meant by "cheating" in the context of a quad throw wherein (supposedly) the man starts the spinning before he releases her. I read somewhere that the last couple to do a "true" quad throw was Hongbo Zhou and his partner. She did not land the move, as best I remember but the attempt was met with much fan fare. Several years later, I read where several couples DID land the element but that they "cheated" in that the man did something or another before releasing the woman. I can't quite grasp what is being conveyed in this commentary. How does the woman spin or twist before she is released?

 

[gkelly]

Better move this to Great Skate Debate.

This is a participant forum and I doubt there are any FSUers who have performed quad throws, cheated or not.

 

[brennele]

Better move this to Great Skate Debate.

This is a participant forum and I doubt there are any FSUers who have performed quad throws, cheated or not.

I am confused - what do you mean by "participant forum?" Do you mean that this is a forum wherein only people who actually skate (vs viewers) post?

 

[gkelly]

Yes, Moves in the Field section is for discussing our own skating.

 

[brennele]

It was suggested that I move my question here (vs in the "Moves in the Field" forum where I would think it belongs. .....so here is the post/question/

Can someone please explain to me what is meant by "cheating" in the context of a quad throw wherein (supposedly) the man starts the spinning before he releases her. I read somewhere that the last couple to do a "true" quad throw was Hongbo Zhou and his partner. She did not land the move, as best I remember but the attempt was met with much fan fare. Several years later, I read where several couples DID land the element but that they "cheated" in that the man did something or another before releasing the woman. I can't quite grasp what is being conveyed in this commentary. How does the woman spin or twist before she is released?

 

[brennele]

Yes, Moves in the Field section is for discussing our own skating.

Oh OK, that makes sense. I took your suggestion and moved it. I would think, however, that if one is actually doing skating, he or she would know quite a bit about it. Quad throws are pretty incredible elements.

 

[alj5]

Fundamentally it means that the rotation was not completed in the air. Either:
* "post-rotation" where a portion of the last 1/4 - 1/2 rotation on the ice on the landing
* "pre-rotation" before the woman's blade leaves the ice

For a twist lift to be "cheated", it's pretty much the same thing except it's more about the position of the woman moment the man releases and catches her. They should be chest to chest and his hands should be on her hips for both the release and the catch.

 

[overedge]

Oh OK, that makes sense. I took your suggestion and moved it. I would think, however, that if one is actually doing skating, he or she would know quite a bit about it. Quad throws are pretty incredible elements.

Knowing about a move is not the same as being able to do it and to explain how it works.

 

[brennele]

Fundamentally it means that the rotation was not completed in the air. Either:
* "post-rotation" where a portion of the last 1/4 - 1/2 rotation on the ice on the landing
* "pre-rotation" before the woman's blade leaves the ice

For a twist lift to be "cheated", it's pretty much the same thing except it's more about the position of the woman moment the man releases and catches her. They should be chest to chest and his hands should be on her hips for both the release and the catch.

But here is the part I don't get, how does he twist her before releasing her? Seems to me that once she is free of his hands the revolutions should count from there. I am not talking about the element wherein he throws her in the air and then catches her as she is twisting in a horizontal position. I am referring to where he throws her forward - away from him - and she twists several times before landing on one foot. Supposedly the couples who successfully perform this maneuver now are said to be "cheating" versus the original couple who did it the right way (without success). I can't get a mental image of how the woman is twisting in the air unless she is free of his hands. Where does the cheating come in? Also who is controlling the number of revolutions in the air? Is it the person throwing the twisting individual i.e. the man or is it the individual a actually doing the twisting i.e. the female? Who in the duo is controlling the dynamics which results in the actual number of revolutions before she hits the ice to land.

 

[alj5]

The throw rotation is mostly based on the position of her skating blade. Pre-rotating is much less common than post-rotating.

Pre-rotating is more of a combination of the two skaters. She starts rotating her body before her foot actually leaves the ice, but he has to have his hands on her in a way that facilitates the pre-rotation of her body (in respect to her blade position).
Post-rotating is all the woman.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

It was suggested that I move my question here (vs in the "Moves in the Field" forum where I would think it belongs. .....so here is the post/question/

Can someone please explain to me what is meant by "cheating" in the context of a quad throw wherein (supposedly) the man starts the spinning before he releases her. I read somewhere that the last couple to do a "true" quad throw was Hongbo Zhou and his partner. She did not land the move, as best I remember but the attempt was met with much fan fare. Several years later, I read where several couples DID land the element but that they "cheated" in that the man did something or another before releasing the woman. I can't quite grasp what is being conveyed in this commentary. How does the woman spin or twist before she is released?

Maybe if you could link to where you rea that information would help.

The man has no choice but to gives angular momentum to the woman before take-off. All jumps, even the throws, imply a certain amount of rotation before getting off the air. Technically, no triple jumps are truly 360 degrees x 3 in the air.

 

[brennele]

alj5, OK, I think I understand your explanation. Here is how I interpret what you said. Once the woman leaves the male's hands, after being thrown, she determines the number of times her body rotates. He gives her the height and impetus she needs to pull off 3 or 4 turns and she determines how many times her body will twist around. Is that correct? She could elect to do no rotations at all after being thrown i.e. simply land on one foot or she could do 1,2, 3 or 4 rotations, depending on her skill and how much time she has. The thowing of the female by the male substitutes for the woman using her own muscles to jump upward into the air, but once she is in the air, her own muscles take over from there and determines how many turns to do before landing. Is that a correct interpretation of what happens?

Is it also correct to state that women, thus far, are not pulling off quads because they do not have sufficient muscle strength to jump high enough in order to have sufficient time to execute 4 rotations. I am also thinking that the male can't throw her too hard or too high in the interest of giving her enough time for rotations. If he throws her too high or with too much force, she will be unable to land the jump because there will be too much downward force on her landing leg i.e. there will be too much force on her leg when she lands and she will not be able to maintain an upright stance i.e. she will fall over from the force on landing. Is that interpretation also correct?

 

[brennele]

Chiquita, I will look for the link. I found it twice already. I will try again.

 

[brennele]

Chiquita, I found it right away. I do not understand what he is communicating here. I can't quite get a handle on the physics. Perhaps you will be able to explain his point. I saw the Shen and Zhao skate he is referencing and it was very exciting. Unfortunately she did not hold on to it. Do you understand what he means? Here is the link https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?55768-Quad-throw-in-pair-skating ............and here is what the poster said concerning the issue of "cheating" on quad throws.

I'm not super impressed with the current Quad throws because they not only tend to slow down a lot before going in, but are also ALL cheated. In all the pairs doing it now, the man doesn't completely release the lady until she is a full turn into the jump. It's a far cry from the Quad Salchow that Shen&Zhao attempted, which released earlier, was huge, fast going in, and had barely any setup time.​

​

Last edited by Blades of Passion; 07-20-2015 at 11:17 PM.​

 

[alj5]

alj5, OK, I think I understand your explanation. Here is how I interpret what you said. Once the woman leaves the male's hands, after being thrown, she determines the number of times her body rotates. He gives her the height and impetus she needs to pull off 3 or 4 turns and she determines how many times her body will twist around. Is that correct? She could elect to do no rotations at all after being thrown i.e. simply land on one foot or she could do 1,2, 3 or 4 rotations, depending on her skill and how much time she has. The thowing of the female by the male substitutes for the woman using her own muscles to jump upward into the air, but once she is in the air, her own muscles take over from there and determines how many turns to do before landing. Is that a correct interpretation of what happens?

Yes. Of course speed going into the throw or an awkward/poor throw/release by the man (among other things) could also impact her ability to rotate.

Is it also correct to state that women, thus far, are not pulling off quads because they do not have sufficient muscle strength to jump high enough in order to have sufficient time to execute 4 rotations. I am also thinking that the male can't throw her too hard or too high in the interest of giving her enough time for rotations. If he throws her too high or with too much force, she will be unable to land the jump because there will be too much downward force on her landing leg i.e. there will be too much force on her leg when she lands and she will not be able to maintain an upright stance i.e. she will fall over from the force on landing. Is that interpretation also correct?

As someone who never consistently did more than basic moves in the field/spins/single jumps, I'm not really in a position to answer compared with elite coaches.

That said, there have been some women who can do a quad. And really if you look at a body type like Vincent Zhou presently has (though at 17 I would expect some increase in muscle mass and height over the next few years), it's not all that dissimilar from some of the taller females.

Certainly the height and the force of the throw will affect her ability to land the jump, but that's true regardless of a triple or a quad. I once heard a skater in an interview say they had no time difference between a double and triple axel (from when the blade left the ice until it landed again) and minimal height difference. So that leads me to believe that a quad would not necessarily need a higher or longer throw (at least compared with the harder throw triples like the lutz/flip).


When we look back at early quads from Sabovcik/Browning/Stojko in the mid/late 1980s - they are nothing like the quality of quads we see from most of the elite men today. It wasn't until around 2000 that most podium finishers had a consistent quad, and only really in 2014 that podium finishers needed 2 different quads. As much as I have a crush on Browning and really liked Stojko's Bruce Lee program, most of their "successful" attempts would likely earn a negative GOE in today's men's landscape.

As to pairs and quads, they really have only been attempted for the past 12 years or so. And very sporadically. The first attempt at a major event was Shen & Zhao at the 2002 Olympics. The first successfully landed/ratified quad throw was fall 2007 by Vise & Trent of the USA. We've only been seeing multiple teams with good quality quad twists over the past few seasons (although the first successful was in 1977). If we still see 1-2 teams attempting/landing throw quads in 2027, then I'd be skeptical that it's universally possible.

 

[brennele]

alj5 - your detailed explanation is really appreciated as is the time it took to craft it. It truly helps me understand what is going on with the various elements of elite skating - truly amazing. We are reaching a point where we are maxing out what is possible for a human to do. I wll look up the Vise-Trent maneuver on Youtube to watch it. I found it fascinating about the GOE scores of today's quads as opposed to those eared by earlier contenders. I had no idea of how the sport had evolved so. I am more of what would be termed a casual fan although I have been said casual fan for a very long time. The first skaters I recall watching were sometime in the mid-60s when one or another event was watched together with the family. I have been watching on and off for about 50 plus years now but never really understood much about what was going on until I landed on this site and started posting. Anything else I ever knew was what the sports commentators would say or what one could read in the NY Times. I also read some Brenner books which were fascinating. I am learning a whole lot from this website and esp from people like you who take the time to teach others about what they know. Speaking of sports commentators, I love Hamilton and his exuberant enthusiasm but, truth-be-told, other commentators explain more. We the uninformed public are very dependent on the commentators.

When you know so little about skating, as I do, people like Brenner or Hamilton or whoever can really influence you and your opinions about skaters. I am trying to figure out where and when I developed such a negative attitude about Michele Kwan, a skater everyone else seems to adore. I would not know enough to form my own opinion. I am thinking it must have come from one of the books I read. I read one heck of a lot of books and NYT newspaper articles.

 

[gkelly]

So I did a web search for "Quad Throw Salchow" and found this band.

Anyone know anything about them?

 

[skatingguy]

So I did a web search for "Quad Throw Salchow" and found this band.

Anyone know anything about them?

No, but here's the video for the their single 'Unwelcome Guest'. Can't imagine why they didn't break through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWB66f5fPy8

 

[alj5]

You're welcome brennele.
The concept of GOE is unique to the COP/IJS universally in use since the 2004-2005 season. In the late 1980s/early 1990s, doing any mostly rotated quad was considered good.

Personally, I don't enjoy most of the commentators. Tanith was the only NBC sports one I could stand. Scott Hamilton adds excitement, but he's like a cheerleader for everyone and gives very little technical knowledge/understanding. I feel like he contributes to those that think Adam Rippon should've been higher ranked. I literally had to explain to multiple coworkers that while Adam skated really well, he did not deserve an individual medal.

Be careful here about any anti-Kwan sentiments. She is the living embodiment of perfection to many of us.

 

[brennele]

alj5, Hamilton has been criticized for this very issue of not explaining enough to the audience. It came to a head when Sara Hughes won vs Kwan. It was said that Hamilton did not explain enough to the the general public as to how that scenario came about and it occurred again with some other skater who won due to something or another. Hamilton was said to be a "Kwan apologist" where he did not provide the viewer with enough information to understand the process.

Yes, I am aware that there are man Kwan-affectionados here and elsewhere. I am not sure where and why I developed negative sentiments so it must have been from one of the Brenner books I read. I can't imagine that I would know enough on my own to form an independent opinion. I think somehow I got the impression of a sense of entitlement but perhaps I had help in forming this opinion. I just do not recall but I am thinking it might have come from a Brenner book. One thing I do know is that I did not like the "Field of Gold" performance where she skated while was crying over the loss. That whole thing rubbed me the wrong way and seemed like poor sportsmanship. I think sports writers can have a big influence with those not in the know. This whole notion goes all the way back to 1980 where both my then significant other and I had a negative impression of Linda Fratianne based on how the sports writers of the NY Times had portrayed her. We were not exactly rooting for her (and we both had negative views of her ) yet neither of us knew enough about skating so as to form an independent opinion. I am thinking that it had to have come from the NY Times - we were both avid readers of that newspaper. Now in politics I know a whole lot so the NYT and other media sources has no influence on me. I pay absolutely no mind to what the media says when it comes to political candidates and issues.

I think we develop "chemistry" with some skaters and we love them. Other skaters do not appeal to us regardless of skill. It is hard to explain chemistry. Why are we strongly attracted to one person yet not another. Why do we like one breed of dog but not another. I think chemistry plays a big role in skating, as well.

 

[rvi5]

Chiquita, I found it right away. I do not understand what he is communicating here. I can't quite get a handle on the physics. Perhaps you will be able to explain his point. I saw the Shen and Zhao skate he is referencing and it was very exciting. Unfortunately she did not hold on to it. Do you understand what he means? Here is the link https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?55768-Quad-throw-in-pair-skating ............and here is what the poster said concerning the issue of "cheating" on quad throws.

I'm not super impressed with the current Quad throws because they not only tend to slow down a lot before going in, but are also ALL cheated. In all the pairs doing it now, the man doesn't completely release the lady until she is a full turn into the jump. It's a far cry from the Quad Salchow that Shen&Zhao attempted, which released earlier, was huge, fast going in, and had barely any setup time​

I think what needs to be clarified first, is when do they start counting rotations in a throw? When the male partner lets go, or when the female partner lifts off the ice? (as it would be with a singles skater) The person brennele quoted, seems to be assuming rotations begin counting after the male lets go. Hence the perception of cheating, if the female is partly turned while still being held by the male.

 

[brennele]

Rvi5 - It would seem bizarre to begin to count beginning when the female lifts off the ice. She is not exerting any effort at that point but rather the male is doing all the work. If he twists her before letting go, then he is still doing all the work. She is effectively in the same position as a baseball which is being manipulated by the pitcher before it leaves the pitcher's hand. Once she leaves the male's hand, she is now free to put her own effort into the element and do one or more twists in the air. If judges are counting turns done to her upright body while in the male's hands, it IS cheating because what is transpiring has absolutely nothing to do with any effort on her part. He could put spin onto her body, the way a pitcher puts spin onto a ball and doing so would enhance her ability to twist but he would need to release his hands before the counting begins.

 

[skatingguy]

Rvi5 - It would seem bizarre to begin to count beginning when the female lifts off the ice. She is not exerting any effort at that point but rather the male is doing all the work. If he twists her before letting go, then he is still doing all the work. She is effectively in the same position as a baseball which is being manipulated by the pitcher before it leaves the pitcher's hand. Once she leaves the male's hand, she is now free to put her own effort into the element and do one or more twists in the air. If judges are counting turns done to her upright body while in the male's hands, it IS cheating because what is transpiring has absolutely nothing to do with any effort on her part. He could put spin onto her body, the way a pitcher puts spin onto a ball and doing so would enhance her ability to twist but he would need to release his hands before the counting begins.

It would depend on the technique that the couple are using in the throw. The traditional technique that I remember hearing about when learning about pairs skating is that the throw is the ladies jump and the man is only assisting. That to me would suggest that the rotation begins when she leaves the ice because she is jumping, and he is not lifting her. The newer technique seems to be to have the male put all his effort in to getting the lady in to the air to get as much height and distance as possible. You see this with the male skater leaving his feet (or foot) to get the lady in to the air. I'm not sure when to mark the rotation because it seems that most of the time the lady starts to rotate before his hands are completely off her hips, and I'm not sure it would be possible to throw a human being into the air, and then have them generate their own rotation without starting the idea of the rotation before leaving the grown.

 

[brennele]

skatingguy, For sure the male is helping the process i.e. starting the twist. I think, however, that it is possible to initiate rotation without help. I think if a male picked up a female skater and simply threw her up and forward, she could start to rotate her body using her own volition and muscles. For sure cats can do such a thing and I think humans can also but likely they would not have enough time to complete many rotations. She might get one rotation in and possibly two if he did not help with the process - certainly never a quad. I don't know if the female is actively doing anything when the male throws her up from a horizontal position and catches her. I am thinking that perhaps he is putting all the rotations onto her body and she is sort of passive in this process but, again, I don't know for sure. It would be helpful if we had some pairs skaters here to comment on these various maneuvers. It requires a whole lot of trust on the part of the female to even participate in such an element. The female is totally vulnerable at that point and could do nothing to mitigate the fall if for whatever reason he did not catch her. With the other elements, she is in a position to mitigate the damage in a fall - not so with the horizontal twist element. Does that element have a name?

 

[rvi5]

It would depend on the technique that the couple are using in the throw. The traditional technique that I remember hearing about when learning about pairs skating is that the throw is the ladies jump and the man is only assisting. That to me would suggest that the rotation begins when she leaves the ice because she is jumping, and he is not lifting her...

So now the question is, did the ISU choose to carry that thinking over to the newer throw method, or have they since altered it? If a couple can still choose between using either technique, do they have different rotation counting rules apply for each, or one rule fits all? If one rule, which rule?

...If he twists her before letting go, then he is still doing all the work...

To get her started, but I would think she still needs to work at getting most of the rotations in herself. It doesn’t seem likely the male partner alone could spin her fast enough to get four rotations, while also lifting and throwing. It’s team work.

As noticed, everyone is doing it and not ever getting penalized for cheating. Is a rule actually written somewhere, or is this all just an assumption? Inquiring minds would like to know

...not so with the horizontal twist element. Does that element have a name?

Yes, the over head toss and catch element is called a “twist”.

 

[brennele]

Your answers are excellent in helping me (and other interested persons) in understanding what is going on. So much of the whole thing does not make sense to the outsider or casual observer unless someone takes the time - as you have done - to explain it. More and more I am getting an appreciation for how skilled (and dangerous!) some of the pairs FS elements really are - esp the "twist." There is so much trust involved. If he slipped and dropped her, it could be enormously damaging to the dropped person and potentially fatal. It is hard to imagine having so much trust in someone. I can't even fall backwards into someone's arms who is standing behind me - you know that game children play called "trust me." i can't do it. In answer to your query, my guess is that there is but one rule and one grading system for the throw maneuver. When they upgraded the whole system, as they did, they probably included grading elements for the current way it is being done.

When you look at how incredibly difficult the pairs throw and twist maneuvers are, it is amazing to me that anyone even goes into it - the percentage of people who can become elite skaters, given the difficulty of these maneuvers - is so small that it surprises me that people go after this goal at all. I did hear several times, however, that xyz male pairs skater was originally a male singles skater but went into pairs when it become evident that he could no longer be competitive for lack of the ability to do quads. John Baldwin comes to mind in this regard. The good male skater who happens to be muscular with a heavy set frame/body type (not fat just heavy and muscular) is not going to be able to do quads. These days, pairs might be the only option for him if he want to remain in the game. We might see a divergence in the near future where the thin men with a certain body type remain in the singles and the other men gravitate over to pairs where they can still be competitive and where their heavier and more muscular body type is even an advantage. I do believe we will see just that evolution in the not so distant future as this whole male quad thing plays out.

I had a patient once who was the mother of a male pairs skater. He was rising up in the ranks. I don't recall her name so I cannot look up the name to see what became of him i.e. did he make it into the big league. She said that male FS are so scarce in relation to female FS that a male pairs skater is a highly sought after commodity. Her son was a very competent pairs skater and he had many, many offers from females who wanted to partner with him. It ever amazes me how very strong are men even with slim and non-muscular builds - not only in FS but also in ballroom dancing. You look at them and they don't look like they would be as strong as they are. I noticed that with my own husband. He is not esp bulky but in his younger days, he was incredibly strong. His strength was well out of proportion to what you would expect based on his build. Some of these thinner guys surprise you. They don't look like they could lift much but when push comes to shove they have amazing strength and you are flabberghasted with how strong they actually are and how much endurance they have. In the case of my husband, he was a gung-ho bicycle rider. Now at age 68, he cycles 26-32 miles per day......every day. When I first met him, it was 75 miles per day several times per week.

 

[rvi5]

It would depend on the technique that the couple are using in the throw. The traditional technique that I remember hearing about when learning about pairs skating is that the throw is the ladies jump and the man is only assisting. That to me would suggest that the rotation begins when she leaves the ice because she is jumping, and he is not lifting her. The newer technique seems to be to have the male put all his effort in to getting the lady in to the air to get as much height and distance as possible...

I was thinking about this further, and remembered commentators refering to “throw-flips”, “throw-sal”, etc. The judges protocol sheets also lists 3FTh, 3STh, etc. Clearly the female partner is still doing her various jumps, and the male partner is assisting. It is not just a case of the male picking her up, and tossing her. Why would she pretend to jump? As you said, the technique has changed in that the male partner is now using much more power than in the past. Timing is critical.

As you also mentioned, it seems likely rotations begin when she lifts-off (as in single skating), not when the male partner releases. That would probably explain why nobody has ever been penalized for cheating based on when they let go of their partner. I suspect this cheating idea originated with making false assumptions. As I mentioned earlier, we need to first confirm the exact rules regarding how/when rotations are counted.

 

[rvi5]

More and more I am getting an appreciation for how skilled (and dangerous!) some of the pairs FS elements really are - esp the "twist." There is so much trust involved. If he slipped and dropped her, it could be enormously damaging to the dropped person and potentially fatal. It is hard to imagine having so much trust in someone.

Yes, it is very dangerous. Here are some Pairs skating accidents. Not for the squeamish...

https://youtu.be/5IwKBUaaoOc
https://youtu.be/YfX-sPtVCmg
https://youtu.be/ebF218zgz3I


The twist explained...
https://youtu.be/RyOj6RS18pU

 

[gkelly]

Where is @5Ali3 when we need him/her?

According to the technical panel handbook for pairs

Calling under-rotated or down-graded throw
jumps
The Technical Panel must call the attempted throw jump even if it is clear that it is
under-rotated or will be downgraded. Both under-rotated and downgraded throw
jumps will count as the intended jump in the application of Well Balanced Program
regulations.
The quarter and half mark of landing are the border lines to identify cheated throw
jumps.
The camera angle is important to consider when deciding upon a cheated throw
jump particularly when the jump is at the opposite end of the rink than the camera.
In all doubtful cases the Technical Panel should act to the benefit of the skater.

Also

Turning of the Man on the ice
In cases of turning of the Man on the ice before throwing the Lady in the air the
GOE will be reduced for “Poor take-off”.

But I don't think that's what you're referring to.

All rotational jumps in skating rely on rotation that begins as the skater leaves the ice, most rotating in the same direction as the takeoff edge, counterrotated jumps like lutz and walley working against the entry edge to reverse direction. You can't really jump up in a straight line with no rotation at all until after you leave the the ice. The rotation begins on the ice or at the point of takeoff and then accelerates as the skater pulls in in the air; it doesn't start from nothing after the skater is in the air.

With a salchow, the takeoff edge is already rotating on the ice and the skater just increases the speed of that rotation in the air by pulling in.

I don't know as much about pairs technique and throws, but my understanding is that the the rotation starts from when the lady's blade leaves the ice same as if she were doing the jump on her own.

We could use someone who has actually done pair skating and preferably served on a pairs technical panel to clarify.

 

[antmanb]

I think the poster on Golden Skate giving their opinion about cheated jumps is wrong.

It is very obvious to me that throw jump technique basically involves the man holding on to the woman through most of the first rotation. When you watch the pairs warm up the majority go through single and double before doing the triple, the men barely lets go of the woman on the big throw singles because that is the phase of the jump where the assistance occurs.

Just from the timing and mechanics of the throw jump, if the man didn't do that, there would be very little assist and it would be all more or less the woman's technique and strength going into the throw.

Most of the pairs have a technique whereby the man lets go at the point that his arms are fully extended, the woman by then is facing forwards or further round.