Question about English idioms.

[Tinami Amori]

Me and few friends were sitting arguing all night about languages, literature, etc., and few questions about English idioms came up, and went unresolved. Can anyone offer explanations?

“Born with a silver spoon in his mouth”. We understand the meaning.
Question: why “silver” and not “gold”? Gold would indicate more prosperity. Is it because spoon out of gold metal is not a durable as silver, and yet silver is still expensive enough?

“Let the cat out of the bag”. We understand the meaning, but are wondering about the origin of such image. Was there ever a practice to keep a Cat in a bag? Why “cat” and not some other animal or object?

“Cry over spilt milk”. Why “spilt”’ and not “spilled”?

“Whole 9 yards”. We understand it means “all the way”. But why “9” and why “yards”? Is there a game or practice running across the yards of 9 neighbors?

“Barking up the wrong tree”. We understand it means taking the wrong step or action, but can’t picture what association one must have to see the bark being pulled off the tree upwards. What does it mean to “pill off bark upwards”?

"Cut some slack". Understand the meaning. What is "slack" in this context?

and last one “Bone to pick”. We understand it means a confrontation or an argument to solve some differences. But what is the symbolism behind the choice of words? I imagine very weird scenarios: 2 tribal men picking out 2 large mammoth bones to go and fight each other; Adam picking which Eva’s rib to tear out; a knight aiming a gauntlet at opponent’s rib-cage….

Any help is appreciated. We have a bet among our group of friends who comes up with right answers in 24 hours.

 

[Sparks]

Yards refers to the measurement, not someone's property.
Barking refers to the sound a dog makes. Barking up the wrong tree is like a hunting dog barking at a tree which not not hold prey.

ETA: I bet there is a website which explains English idioms.

 

[IceAlisa]

I think babies used to be fed with a silver spoon because it was considered good for them but I am not 100% sure.

Nine yards refers to ammo. This is one of the reasons in Wiki, given first

• Perhaps the most commonly offered explanation is that World War II (1939–1945) aircraft machine gun belts were nine yards long. There are many versions of this explanation with variations regarding type of plane, nationality of gunner, and geographic area. This theory is no longer considered viable, since the phrase predates World War II. However an alternative weapon is the ammunition belt for the British Vickers machine gun, invented and adopted by the British Army before the first World War (1914–1918)

Cutting some slack as in a rope, to lengthen or slacken a rope someone is holding or pulling, to go easy on them.

 

[Sparks]

I *think* the silver spoon refers to only the wealthy had real silver utensils.
My grandmother's "Wedding Silver" from 1921 was silver plate. It's what people could afford in rural Oklahoma.
I own that set now.

 

[Spun Silver]

Silver because who eats with gold spoons and forks?

Kittens were commonly seen as nuisances and drowned in bags. Even in my husband's youth, his father drowned kittens.

Spilt is just an archaic spelling of spilled, indicating the age of the expression.

Whole nine yards: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_whole_nine_yards (There is probably an entry for each of these phrases.)

Slack means loose, so if you are Anna in Downton Abbey, sent out to buy some silk for Lady Mary, you might ask a friendly draper to cut you some slack, i.e., hold the cloth loosely so you get a little extra in your purchase. By extension, to give you just a little break. Just my guess.

To pick a bone is to pull off the little bits of meat. Vegetarian that I am, I perform this horrible task frequently for my toypoos (hubby is a carnivore). To pick a bone WITH someone is to fight over something niggling, like a scrap of meat, as my dogs would do if they were picking their own bone instead of making me do it for them.

Fun, huh?

 

[Artemis@BC]

“Born with a silver spoon in his mouth”. We understand the meaning.
Question: why “silver” and not “gold”? Gold would indicate more prosperity. Is it because spoon out of gold metal is not a durable as silver, and yet silver is still expensive enough?

Because every upper-crust (there's another one for you) family would have silver flatware, but the only place you'd find gold would be in Versailles. Or perhaps present-day Dubai.

Cutting slack is I think more likely to be in relation to sailing than to cloth. There are various riggings that, when the ropes are slackened, you have more leeway (!) for how you can control the sails/boat.

 

[Tinami Amori]

First, thank you, each and every one of you, for providing answers. I appreciate it.

ETA: I bet there is a website which explains English idioms.

I found websites which explain the meaning and use, which we already knew, but not (for the lack of better term) the etymology and origins of the sayings.

Yards refers to the measurement, not someone's property. .

Got it! “yards” as in “3 feet”.

Nine yards refers to ammo. This is one of the reasons in Wiki, given first.

I found the wiki article, but it does not give one single explanation and states it is “an entymological riddle”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_whole_nine_yards

Barking refers to the sound a dog makes. Barking up the wrong tree is like a hunting dog barking at a tree which does not hold prey.

Now I can see it. Dog with paws up the tree barking, thinking there is a squirrel, while its on another tree. Great! That works.


All answers about “Silver Spoon” (vs. “gold”). Got it! Thank you! Looks like “silver spoon” is a specific object, and silver is not a just a choice word to describe wealth, because there is also “golden egg” where “gold” indicates “precious”.

Spilt is just an archaic spelling of spilled, indicating the age of the expression.

Got it!

To pick a bone is to pull off the little bits of meat. Vegetarian that I am, I perform this horrible task frequently for my toypoos (hubby is a carnivore). To pick a bone WITH someone is to fight over something niggling, like a scrap of meat, as my dogs would do if they were picking their own bone instead of making me do it for them.

Ha! interesting. got it.

Kittens were commonly seen as nuisances and drowned in bags. Even in my husband's youth, his father drowned kittens.

got it! (ouch!..... yes it was an old time practice in many places, just never crossed my mind).

Kittens were commonly seen as nuisances and drowned in bags. Even in my husband's youth, his father drowned kittens.

Slack means loose, so if you are Anna in Downton Abbey, sent out to buy some silk for Lady Mary, you might ask a friendly draper to cut you some slack, i.e., hold the cloth loosely so you get a little extra in your purchase. By extension, to give you just a little break. Just my guess.

Cutting some slack as in a rope, to lengthen or slacken a rope someone is holding or pulling, to go easy on them.

Cutting slack is I think more likely to be in relation to sailing than to cloth. There are various riggings that, when the ropes are slackened, you have more leeway (!) for how you can control the sails/boat.

Got it! I mean I believe you’re right. Had a hard time with this one. I knew “slack” was a rope or loose material. Knew the phrase means various forms of “help me out/give me a chance”. There is also “throw me a rope” (to save me). So I did not get how “cutting a rope” would mean “saving”, rather than “cutting the rope which can pull you out of ditch or water”. Got it now.


Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I think I’ll be the first one with the answers among my friends.

 

[IceAlisa]

The ammo is the explanation I was given by my husband, without consulting Wiki. It is unclear which particular brand of weaponry gave rise to the expression but it was likely the British one invented before WW1.

 

[acraven]

To me, "cut some slack" is pretty specific. I'd use it when asking to be judged not-so-harshly for having done a rather sloppy job of something. For example, if I served ugly-looking cookies to friends, I might say, "You've gotta cut me some slack here; I'm not much of a baker".

 

[pat c]

“Let the cat out of the bag”.

I read the history of this one a while back, in a book I have. Anyway, it's actually to do with two things:

Back in the day, people would sell weanlings (piglets) for sale at the local market. They would put them in a bag, or as the saying would go, a pig in a poke. (a type of bag)
But even then, you had some shifty types, and they would try and sell you a pig in a poke, but instead of a piglet, it would be a cat. So, they wouldn't ever want to let you let the cat out of the bag, which would prove you were being taken.

Or that's the way this book presented them.

 

[Prancer]

“Born with a silver spoon in his mouth”.

"In medieval tradition, wealthy godparents gave their grandchildren silver spoons as gifts during at their christening ceremonies. Because only the rich could afford such items, silver spoons became a symbol of the affluent."

From Red Herrings and White Elephants: The Origins of the Phrases We Use Everyday.

“Let the cat out of the bag”.

I can't find my book of animal-term etymology at the moment, but I remember that this one's origin is unclear.

This is the closest discussion of what I recall from the book: http://www.snopes.com/language/phrases/catbag.asp

“Whole 9 yards”.

Another one of unclear origin: https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/where-did-we-get-the-whole-nine-yards/

“Bone to pick”.

"Bone to pick," which dates back to the 16th century, simply refers to a dog chewing endlessly on, and "picking clean," a large bone. A "bone to pick" is thus a subject or issue that is expected to require considerable discussion or argument. A similar phrase, "bone of contention," meaning an issue over which two people argue, also dates back to the 1500s and refers, appropriately, to two dogs fighting over an especially choice bone.

 

[Artemis@BC]

"Bone to pick," which dates back to the 16th century, simply refers to a dog chewing endlessly on, and "picking clean," a large bone. A "bone to pick" is thus a subject or issue that is expected to require considerable discussion or argument. A similar phrase, "bone of contention," meaning an issue over which two people argue, also dates back to the 1500s and refers, appropriately, to two dogs fighting over an especially choice bone.

That one becomes less clear for folks because most people who use it today mean "I have a complaint to make to you," rather than the original meaning of "There's an issue we need to discuss at length."

 

[Andrushka]

Me and few friends were sitting arguing all night about languages, literature, etc., and few questions about English idioms came up, and went unresolved. Can anyone offer explanations?

“Born with a silver spoon in his mouth”. We understand the meaning.
Question: why “silver” and not “gold”? Gold would indicate more prosperity. Is it because spoon out of gold metal is not a durable as silver, and yet silver is still expensive enough?

“Let the cat out of the bag”. We understand the meaning, but are wondering about the origin of such image. Was there ever a practice to keep a Cat in a bag? Why “cat” and not some other animal or object?

“Cry over spilt milk”. Why “spilt”’ and not “spilled”?

“Whole 9 yards”. We understand it means “all the way”. But why “9” and why “yards”? Is there a game or practice running across the yards of 9 neighbors?

“Barking up the wrong tree”. We understand it means taking the wrong step or action, but can’t picture what association one must have to see the bark being pulled off the tree upwards. What does it mean to “pill off bark upwards”?

"Cut some slack". Understand the meaning. What is "slack" in this context?

and last one “Bone to pick”. We understand it means a confrontation or an argument to solve some differences. But what is the symbolism behind the choice of words? I imagine very weird scenarios: 2 tribal men picking out 2 large mammoth bones to go and fight each other; Adam picking which Eva’s rib to tear out; a knight aiming a gauntlet at opponent’s rib-cage….

Any help is appreciated. We have a bet among our group of friends who comes up with right answers in 24 hours.

these have already probably been answered but I'll bite anyway.

People usually make eating utensils out of silver rather than gold.Hence why during wars etc...the women of the house went and buried the good silver in the garden before invading armies marched in.

Let the cat out of the bag...as it has already been mentioned...people had a bad habit of drowning unwanted kittens.

Barking up the wrong tree...in my opinion and in the South it probably refers to hunting dogs treeing an animal...in the South,usually a Raccoon or squirrel (I do not condone coon hunting,I'm from the Raccoon Clan,Wotkvlke in Mvskoke-Creek...I'm not allowed to harm/kill then myself).But..if you were coon hunting,if your hunting dog treed a coon and it wasn't in that tree..your dog would be barking up the wrong tree.

slack would be like if you had a rope and there's a bit that's not tight,it's the slack.

Bone to pick....picking all the meat off a bone.

 

[Tinami Amori]

.......

I can't find my book of animal-term etymology at the moment, but I remember that this one's origin is unclear..

Thank you, Prancer, for answers and book refs. All answers are noted, and I did order the book on animal-term etymology. Love the content!

To Androushka and Arthemis, thank you for your replies!

 

[pat c]

The book I got that example from is called Straight from the Horse's Mouth by Teri Degler. (let the cat out of the bag)
Other articles/books cited in the bibliography are Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable by Dr. Ebenezer Cobham Brewer, Harper & Row, NY 1981
To Coin A Phrase: A dictionary of Origins by Edwin Radford Hutchinson of London, rev 1973

Interesting stuff.

 

[Tinami Amori]

The book I got that example from is called Straight from the Horse's Mouth by Teri Degler. (let the cat out of the bag)
Other articles/books cited in the bibliography are Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable by Dr. Ebenezer Cobham Brewer, Harper & Row, NY 1981
To Coin A Phrase: A dictionary of Origins by Edwin Radford Hutchinson of London, rev 1973

Interesting stuff.

I will check it all out. Thank you. I love idioms... .

 

[Skate Talker]

Tinami Amori - you and my grade 12 English teacher. He had us studying the origins of idioms all the time.

The version of letting the cat out of the bag we were told is mostly the same as the one pat c posted. Only variation was something to the effect that the piglet sales were illegal so often quite clandestine so this allowed for the sneaky switch to a cat. The purchaser would want to quickly disappear with the sack and not open it until in a safe place, then finding out they had been duped when the cat leapt out.

The version of Whole Nine Yards I know is the one about the ammo belts.

I don't know if this one is true or not but thought you might find it interesting. People often talk about the "Rule of Thumb" as in the way it most usually is/happens. I heard that it originated in New England and referred to a law that said a man could beat his wife/children etc. as long as he used something that was no bigger than the width of his thumb. Don't know if this one is true but I have tried to avoid using it ever since.

 

[Artemis@BC]

I don't know if this one is true or not but thought you might find it interesting. People often talk about the "Rule of Thumb" as in the way it most usually is/happens. I heard that it originated in New England and referred to a law that said a man could beat his wife/children etc. as long as he used something that was no bigger than the width of his thumb. Don't know if this one is true but I have tried to avoid using it ever since.

That one is an etymological myth -- no such law ever existed. I've hear it attributed to early New England law, as well as to "old England" law (specifically common law), but both are false.

Although the exact origin of "rule of thumb" is not know, the most likely source is a measurement one, since body parts were used for estimating and measuring for so long.

 

[liv]

Yes, the rule of thumb explanation as described is how I was taught it as well. I also love idioms...

 

[Japanfan]

I don't know if this one is true or not but thought you might find it interesting. People often talk about the "Rule of Thumb" as in the way it most usually is/happens. I heard that it originated in New England and referred to a law that said a man could beat his wife/children etc. as long as he used something that was no bigger than the width of his thumb. Don't know if this one is true but I have tried to avoid using it ever since.

I believe it to be true. I saw a British documentary recently on the Suffragettes and that's the explanation they gave on rule of thumb.

 

[Vagabond]

Don't believe everything you hear in British documentaries.

Wikipedia webpage for "Rule of Thumb"

The idea that the term comes from some law or judicial ruling about wife-beating appears to be an urban legend.

 

[Prancer]

Rule of Thumb

This is more or less what my idiom and word origin reference books say as well.

As a rule of thumb , WordOrigins and World Wide Words and other sites run by etymologists and linguists are probably the best place to find accurate information about words. This is not to say that what Wiki said was wrong (although the documentary definitely was), just that there are more reliable sources out there.