Proposed tech requirement changes (ISU Congress June 2024)

[peibeck]

With only nine jumping slots in the free, you could imagine someone ending up with only two kinds of jumps, with 2 4Toes, 2 3Toes, and 2Toes, and a 3A and 2 2A. Not that this kind of layout would be smart points wise, but it would have been a possibility without the 3 jump maximum rule.

That jump layout couldn't happen because a skater would be limited to only 3 of the same jump type regardless of revolutions. (At least, that's how I'm understanding it.) So a competitor could do a 4t/3t combo and a solo 4t, but their other combo could NOT be a 3a/2t because they would have exceeded doing the same type of jump by adding on that 2t.

And lowering jumping passes down to 6 from 7 is going to be extra painful for a skater who ends up popping a jump (or two).

 

[On My Own]

That jump layout couldn't happen because a skater would be limited to only 3 of the same jump type regardless of revolutions. (At least, that's how I'm understanding it.) So a competitor could do a 4t/3t combo and a solo 4t, but their other combo could NOT be a 3a/2t because they would have exceeded doing the same type of jump by adding on that 2t.

Yes. For women without 3A, @Private Citizen seems to have got it right.

For men, I think this means a dead end to the +2A+2A combos? They will need to jump two 3As to rack up their BV, but then can't do +2A+2A. ( )

We could see
4Lz
4T+3F
4S
4T
3A+3T+2Lo or 3A+3T+3Lo (or 3A+3T+2A I guess)
3A

Three toe loops, two Salchows, two/three Axels, one Lutz, one Flip, one/zero Loop.

 

[On My Own]

Ilia could do

4A
4Lz
4F
4Lo
4T+4S (if he doesn't have it he should train it, assuming it can be attempted in the free skate)
3A+3A+3Lo

 

[Yyzskater]

I don't know if this has been discussed but there seems to be a change to the number of difficult variations being allowed to count as a level in spins. They are proposing that only 2 positions will be counted for level features. Wouldn't this make it much more difficult to get a level 4 spin now because most skaters were using variations to get 3-4 features to get their levels?

 

[Lilia A]

I don't know if this has been discussed but there seems to be a change to the number of difficult variations being allowed to count as a level in spins. They are proposing that only 2 positions will be counted for level features. Wouldn't this make it much more difficult to get a level 4 spin now because most skaters were using variations to get 3-4 features to get their levels?

On paper will be more difficult for those who rely heavily on difficult variations. The hyper-flexible skaters took full advantage of being able to achieve tons of difficult positions but they'll need more now. But if only two spins will be leveled then that's a lot less features to have to count in one free program. Unless it's a skater who got all of their features by doing difficult variations, but surely most have something else like difficult entry/exit or 8 revs already in their planned content.
The question I have is how the spin rule will affect the short program. Are they still doing combo spin + flying spin + layback/change foot spin? That would mean there's one more leveled spin in the short vs the free. In that case, yes, I can see the two difficult variation limit being a problem for some.

 

[kwanfan1818]

So, “Him Fa” is Adam’s Chinese given name, or “first” name in a Western sense?

I’d always thought that Adam Siao Him Fa was similar to Michelle Wingshan Kwan or Patrick Lewis Wai-Kuan Chan, which was the naming convention of all of the first American-born generation of Chinese-American kids I grew up with and also some of their parents who adopted Western first names, sometimes translations of the characters of their Chinese names. Which would have made Fa alone his last name in the Western order (FirstNames/Last Name) or Siao alone in the order in Chinese (Last Name/First Names). I was surprised to learn that Siao Him Fa was his last name.

 

[On My Own]

I don't know if this has been discussed but there seems to be a change to the number of difficult variations being allowed to count as a level in spins. They are proposing that only 2 positions will be counted for level features. Wouldn't this make it much more difficult to get a level 4 spin now because most skaters were using variations to get 3-4 features to get their levels?

Well they are planning on canning a spin altogether in the free skate in favour of the choreographic spin, but you're right for the short program. This change doesn't seem to have been underlined as being new as is usually the case, nor has it been highlighted which means it's already part of the handbook (unlike the ones that are pending congress ruling), so I'd missed it.

This is also new, and a welcome inclusion:

Difficult blade feature: using the blade in a way that has a significant impact on the balance, control and execution of
the spin. The feature must be executed in camel, sit or Layback position and can be achieved for example by spinning
on the heel or toe of the blade.

I think Selevko's variation in his camel spin from last season counts?

For comparison with last season's handbook: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/31570-technical-panel-handbook-1/file

This season: https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/33668-isu-communication-2623/file

 

[On My Own]

This is because Siao Him Fa is the phonetic version of his full Chinese Name, so which makes Siao his surname. I've never met any other Chinese person who does it in this order, but the world is full of variations! My English middle name happens to be the phonetic version of my Chinese given name.

So, “Him Fa” is Adam’s Chinese given name, or “first” name in a Western sense?

I’d always thought that Adam Siao Him Fa was similar to Michelle Wingshan Kwan or Patrick Lewis Wai-Kuan Chan, which was the naming convention of all of the first American-born generation of Chinese-American kids I grew up with and also some of their parents who adopted Western first names, sometimes translations of the characters of their Chinese names. Which would have made Fa alone his last name in the Western order (FirstNames/Last Name) or Siao alone in the order in Chinese (Last Name/First Names). I was surprised to learn that Siao Him Fa was his last name.

According to a friend, Siao Him Fa is actually his grandfather's name. His own Chinese name is actually 萧传文 -> Xiao Chuanwen read in Mandarin. (Siao indicates a different dialect than Mandarin)

So Xiao/Siao would be the family name, and Chuanwen (or however it's read in his dialect) would be the given name.

BTW, he's called 笑笑 in Chinese fan circles. 笑=Xiao so similar to his family name (not the same pronunciation though). And it means "laugh" or "lol" too. Not sure if there's a specific reason for that apart from similar sounding words.

 

[Private Citizen]

Ilia could do

4A
4Lz
4F
4Lo
4T+4S (if he doesn't have it he should train it, assuming it can be attempted in the free skate)
3A+3A+3Lo

What about?
4A
4Lz+3T
4Lz
4Lo
4S
4T+3A+3A

Could also substitute in 4F for one of them.

 

[On My Own]

What about?
4A
4Lz+3T
4Lz
4Lo
4S
4T+3A+3A

Could also substitute in 4F for one of them.

4A
4Lz+4F
4Lz
4Lo
4S
4A+4T+4T

No triples!

 

[Karen-W]

What about?
4A
4Lz+3T
4Lz
4Lo
4S
4T+3A+3A

Could also substitute in 4F for one of them.

I think he's done 4F in sequence with a 4S in some of his "for fun" IG reels. And I'm pretty sure he's done at least a 4T on the back-end of the 4Lz. I'm guessing his team is figuring out the most optimal layout for him but I won't be surprised to see a quad+quad combo or sequence from him next season.

 

[Vagabond]

The Sino Mauritian Family

Find the Mauritian family tree and generation names

www.kwonghatongmru.com

Clans & Surnames — Hakka Mauritians 客家

www.hakkamauritians.org

Apparently, many Mauritians of Chinese ancestry use a transliteration of the full Chinese name of a patrilineal ancestor as their given name, with the surname placed first in Chinese style. Thus, the Siao Him Fa family's original name must have been Siao, and a Siao with the given name Him Fa was the one who emigrated to Mauritius.

 

[Sylvia]

Thanks for all the extra info on Adam's family name and his own name - I've re-posted the above in his fan thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/adam-slay-siao-him-fa-fan-thread.111746/#post-6590617

 

[cheremary]

Clans & Surnames — Hakka Mauritians 客家

www.hakkamauritians.org

Apparently, many Mauritians of Chinese ancestry use a transliteration of the full Chinese name of a patrilineal ancestor as their given name, with the surname placed first in Chinese style. Thus, the Siao Him Fa family's original name must have been Siao, and a Siao with the given name Him Fa was the one who emigrated to Mauritius.

Thank you - this is super interesting! I know some Singaporeans and Malaysians of Chinese origin write their names in that order (Western given name - surname - Chinese given name) and had figured Him Fa would be Adam's Chinese given name, except his brother Benjamin's last name is also Siao Him Fa. Nice way to honor their grandfather!

 

[leilaofpaper]

4A
4Lz+4F
4Lz
4Lo
4S
4A+4T+4T

No triples!

Can’t repeat more than one quad - you have him repeating three (4Lz, 4A, 4T)

 

[On My Own]

Can’t repeat more than one quad - you have him repeating three (4Lz, 4A, 4T)

I didn't notice at the time.

I wonder if triples can't be eliminated then.

 

[zebobes]

Unless the ISU gets rid of the only one Quad repeat rule, Ilia could at most have seven quads in a FS.

This is the layout that would make the most sense to me based on his FS this past year at worlds and his crazy IG posts, while avoiding any "boring" triples.

4A
4Lz-4S (with the newly "invisible" euler in between). I'm making this jumping pass second, as it would take time to stabilize such a difficult combination, and putting it in the second half seems unnecessarily difficult. He could also choose to swap out the 4S with a 4F, which would change the next jumping pass.
4F (This depends on his previous combination)
4Lo
4Lz
4T-3A-3A

That jump layout couldn't happen because a skater would be limited to only 3 of the same jump type regardless of revolutions. (At least, that's how I'm understanding it.) So a competitor could do a 4t/3t combo and a solo 4t, but their other combo could NOT be a 3a/2t because they would have exceeded doing the same type of jump by adding on that 2t.

And lowering jumping passes down to 6 from 7 is going to be extra painful for a skater who ends up popping a jump (or two).

I am aware of that, I was trying to say the ISU is trying to keep a layout like this from being legal, thus the new rule.

 

[On My Own]

Edit: NVM! Seems with all the proposed rules, @zebobes has got to Ilia's best layout.

 

[Private Citizen]

I thought I read that one had to be a true combination -- i.e., a skater cannot do one combination with an euler and one with an axel, but would have to choose. Or did I misinterpret EdgyIceMarks's post?

"There may be up to

• two (2) jump combinations or
• one (1) jump combination without using an Euler (half-loop) 1) and one (1) jump sequence.

One jump combination or jump sequence can consist of up to three (3) jumps, the other up to two (2) jumps."

In that case, Malinin could NOT do both 4Lz+eu+4S and 4T+3A+3A.

I think, however, he could (theoretically) do 4Lz+eu+4S+3A. The sequence rules specifically reference eulers, so I'm taking this to mean skaters can include both an euler and an axel in the same pass. Not sure it would be worth it, though, because then that eliminates using the 3A at the end of another pass.

I suspect his two combos will be 4Lz+3T and 4T+3A+3A given how easily he can put a triple axel on the end of anything. I also suspect fewer jumping passes will push Malinin to try quad-quad combinations. E.g., this layout:
4A
4Lz+3A+3A (or 4Lz+4T)
4Lz
4F
4Lo
4S+4T (or 4S+3A+3A)

 

[On My Own]

I thought I read that one had to be a true combination -- i.e., a skater cannot do one combination with an euler and one with an axel, but would have to choose. Or did I misinterpret EdgyIceMarks's post?

"There may be up to

• two (2) jump combinations or
• one (1) jump combination without using an Euler (half-loop) 1) and one (1) jump sequence.

One jump combination or jump sequence can consist of up to three (3) jumps, the other up to two (2) jumps."

I skipped that huge chunk of the post because they said it was for Novice competitions, fwiw.

but if it's the case, then taking my layout from #183, he could instead do:

4A
4Lz
4F
4Lo
4Lz+4S (if he doesn't have it he should train it, assuming it can be attempted in the free skate)
3A+4T+3Lo

 

[zebobes]

I missed the rules on combinations. Man, with the ISU adding so many rules to the combinations, there really is not much wriggle room for "freedom," with not many choices if you want to squeeze in as many triples as possible. Now, we were looking at the top level skaters, but if a man without a quad (i.e., Jason) wanted to maximize his layout, what would that look like? I have a feeling that Jason doesn't like doing a triple toe directly after a triple axel, but if he wanted to do eight triples, it would be difficult, as he can't do -double axel and a -triple sal. I have no idea if something like this would be feasible.

3A
3A-2A-3S (putting either the 3S or 2A first, depending on what is easier for him, but I am worried this combo is too risky for him)
3Lo
3F
3F-3T (Jason prefers the Flip, I believe? If he wanted more points, he could go for the Lutz)
3Lz

Of course, maybe it would be smarter for Jason to just use a 2T here or there to insure he can do the program cleanly, but fitting eight triples and a 2A is actually quite challenging to do in just six jumping passes. Jason's base level would actually not be greatly affected, as he would only be losing one 2A and the point value of a measly euler. With the new euler rules, people actually have 10 jumping passes.

 

[On My Own]

I missed the rules on combinations. Man, with the ISU adding so many rules to the combinations, there really is not much wriggle room for "freedom," with not many choices if you want to squeeze in as many triples as possible. Now, we were looking at the top level skaters, but if a man without a quad (i.e., Jason) wanted to maximize his layout, what would that look like? I have a feeling that Jason doesn't like doing a triple toe directly after a triple axel, but if he wanted to do eight triples, it would be difficult, as he can't do -double axel and a -triple sal. I have no idea if something like this would be feasible.

3A
3A-2A-3S (putting either the 3S or 2A first, depending on what is easier for him, but I am worried this combo is too risky for him)
3Lo
3F
3F-3T (Jason prefers the Flip, I believe? If he wanted more points, he could go for the Lutz)
3Lz

Of course, maybe it would be smarter for Jason to just use a 2T here or there to insure he can do the program cleanly, but fitting eight triples and a 2A is actually quite challenging to do in just six jumping passes. Jason's base level would actually not be greatly affected, as he would only be losing one 2A and the point value of a measly euler. With the new euler rules, people actually have 10 jumping passes.

Again. If you read that post, it's about novice level.

 

[raruki]

Another example similar to Adam's case is that there is a French basketball player called Steeve Ho You Fat from French Guiana, “Ho You Fat(何佑發)” is his family name and also his grandfather's full name. I don't know which Han Chinese clan he belongs to but his family name sounded pretty Cantonese to me as a native Cantonese speaker. So I guessed using their grandfather or ancestor’s full name as their family name is some kind of convention among the early Chinese immigrants who migrated and even naturalized in France?

 

[cailuj365]

As an Asian person, I am so embarrassed that I did not realize that Adam is actually of Chinese ancestry. I don't know why I thought he was Vietnamese, maybe because he is from France, but seeing that Siao is actually his Chinese surname makes so much sense. This thread has been highly illuminating!

Also, I know these are theoretical, maxed-out BV layouts, but ending a free skate with a quad-quad is making my head spin. Let's see one in competition first. I am mourning the fact that the potential rule changes likely means the end of Ilia's 3Lz-3A though. It's almost as signature for him as the 4A and raspberry twist. Part of what makes his free skate scoring so successful is that he essentially never misses this combination, and he can also throw in the 3T at the end if he misses his three-jump combination earlier. It's an ol'-reliable 15-20 point-getter for him, which is crazy. Not sure he will really want to mess with such success. I could see him replacing it with a 4T-3A, but his 4T can be less reliable when it's in the 2nd half.

 

[Private Citizen]

Again. If you read that post, it's about novice level.

At first, I thought you were talking about Jason Brown's jump layout .

Yes, the quoted excerpt was from novice program guidelines, but if novices and seniors are going down to two combinations / sequences each, I don't see why the rules would be tighter for novice than for senior. It seems like the ISU is going to require one of the two to be a "real" combo with no euler. The euler isn't going to be invisible. It's going to be a jump with no base value that can be used once per program.

I am mourning the fact that the potential rule changes likely means the end of Ilia's 3Lz-3A though.

He may end up doing 3Lz+3A+3A. The exciting part about the rule change is that I think it will motivate him to do an x+3A+3A sequence, since he can throw off triple axels like they're nothing. I would bet he tries 4T+3A+3A, but maybe he'll do 3Lz+3A+3A if he feels like "taking it easy."

 

[cailuj365]

Heh, yes, he can do some of these jumps in his sleep on Instagram in isolation (we saw a 4A+3A+3A+3A once), but in competition?! At the end of the program?! Nawww man... I'll believe it when I see it, lol. I already feel that he is skating through a chronic foot injury, so I hope that he stays healthy enough to make it to 2026 with even his current content.

 

[Sylvia]

The Final Agenda document (126 pages; Communication No. 2629) for ISU Congress 2024, June 8-14 in Las Vegas, is online - have at it!

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/33753-isu-communication-2629/file

ETA - new thread in GSD: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/2024-isu-congress-agenda.111760/