Paul and Islam: "No Matter What"

[skatingfan04]

Add me to the list of people who doesn't get why Poirier is considered superior to Islam. He might look more powerful, but that's because he and Piper spend haf of every program stroking and posing. It's easy to look powerful doing that, and much harder to do so when you're moving in and out of holds seamlessly like P/I do. Furthermore, I can often see the work behind Poirier's movements, but Mitch almost always looks light an fluid, even when lifting. I've never seen any indication that Islam is less technically capable than Alex is. In contrast, I think he's just a shade stronger of a technician than her.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Mitchell is a good enough technical skater but he has NO expression, projection, or confidence at all out there, and it is very evident and greatly drags down their performance and desire of the judges to throw big marks. Usually I look at technical abilities before artistry and performance abilities first in dance, but when you are that weak in those areas, it is an exception.

He is always so nervous going out to compete, and is prone to stupid errors when nervous too.

 

[Emdee]

Add me to the list of people who doesn't get why Poirier is considered superior to Islam. He might look more powerful, but that's because he and Piper spend haf of every program stroking and posing. It's easy to look powerful doing that, and much harder to do so when you're moving in and out of holds seamlessly like P/I do. Furthermore, I can often see the work behind Poirier's movements, but Mitch almost always looks light an fluid, even when lifting. I've never seen any indication that Islam is less technically capable than Alex is. In contrast, I think he's just a shade stronger of a technician than her.

Paul is forced to do this because of Piper. Look at his programs with Vanessa when he was much younger.
Agreed that Mitch is very light and fluid but he has to do something to bring out his personality on the ice. Last year he just faded when Alexandra wore that gorgeous red dress. Its almost like how Charlie white had to grow his hair to bring attention to himself. While IMP Charlie ecclipsed meryl in quality her looks made her larger than life.

 

[skatingfan04]

Paul is forced to do this because of Piper. Look at his programs with Vanessa when he was much younger.

I'm not going to argue with the fact that Paul has dumbed down his skating for Piper, because it's obvious. That being said, he didn't do anything with Vanessa (who was his equal technically) that was more difficult than what P/I are doing now, IMO. And I disagree with Mitch fading away behind Alex. I'm not suggesting that he's the most dynamic performer out there. Being a P/I fan doesn't make me blind. He does interpret the music with his face, however. He might not project it as well as others, but the expressions are there. To hear you guys talk about him, you'd think he skates deadpan for four minutes straight. Plus, he carries himself with enough elegance that skating next to Alex (who has more ballet training) doesn't make him look sloppy by comparison. I think they balance each other out well. She's the female, she's the one being lifted. It's his job as a dancer to show her off, and he does it beautifully. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

[Emdee]

You cannot compare Paul and Vanessa three or four years ago to Mitch and Alex now! Paul was just a babe then!

I actually really like both teams you know.
Didn't like PI when they projected VM lite but they have come into their own now.

 

[canadablue]

Oh come on! Piper can barely execute her elements. If you want to gripe about Mitch's posture I can handle that (which I don't think is any worse than Paul's. Mitch can get a little too soft and floppy at times with his shoulders and arms, but overall his frame is excellent in hold and his posture is wonderful in lifts. Poirier has a very straight back, I'll agree, but he often looks rigid to me. Good posture is supposed to have a fluidity to it, not look like you're skating with a rod in your spine.), but suggesting that any aspect of his skating is worse that Piper's is ridiculous. His depth of edge is far superior, he has a much better runof the blade, and he can execute changes of direction in an out of hold that Piper would never be able to handle.

Excellent response to such a dumb comment. And I agree about Paul's posture. It's not bad, but it doesn't look natural IMO.

Mitchell is a good enough technical skater but he has NO expression, projection, or confidence at all out there, and it is very evident and greatly drags down their performance and desire of the judges to throw big marks. Usually I look at technical abilities before artistry and performance abilities first in dance, but when you are that weak in those areas, it is an exception.

Agreed that Mitch is very light and fluid but he has to do something to bring out his personality on the ice. Last year he just faded when Alexandra wore that gorgeous red dress.

While Mitch is not as natural as projecting at Alex, I agree with skatingfan04 that to suggest that his expression is nonexistent is silly.
http://youtu.be/q-1_hSy2u8U?t=1m56s
And the criteria states the projection can be between the partners rather than out to the audience, which is what they did very well in W.E.

Projection is also a very small percentage of the criteria, so you simply can't disregard technical ability because of a supposed weakness in that one area. If the judges lose their desire to award marks for all the technical and movement aspects of the skate because they don't like the way the team is performing, they're really bad and/or corrupt judges.

He might look more powerful, but that's because he and Piper spend haf of every program stroking and posing. It's easy to look powerful doing that, and much harder to do so when you're moving in and out of holds seamlessly like P/I do. Furthermore, I can often see the work behind Poirier's movements, but Mitch almost always looks light an fluid, even when lifting.

Yes, you have to judge a skater on the content they're executing, not what their theoretical ability might be. When G/P are executing much simpler content than P/I, it makes it more complicated to rate Paul's skill level next to them. P/I are superior skaters from a judging perspective both because they're superior to Piper and they're executing more difficult content.

Paul is forced to do this because of Piper. Look at his programs with Vanessa when he was much younger.

You cannot compare Paul and Vanessa three or four years ago to Mitch and Alex now! Paul was just a babe then!

Uh... so which is it? Should we look at his programs with Vanessa to see that he's superior to present-day P/I? If P/I are doing equally or more difficult content as well, does that mean they win? Are we supposed to look at Paul currently skating with Piper, even though he's forced to execute simpler content, and just assume that he's improved at a certain rate since then without him having to actually demonstrate this on the ice for us?

I actually really like both teams you know.

Oh, ok. You often praise G/P at P/I's expense in this thread, so I get confused and forget that.

 

[lavenderblue]

Not to interrupt what's been a very interesting discussion that I'd like to add to later, but we have an announcement!!!

For the SD we will be skating to Nocturno by Luciani and Farruca y Rumba by Pepe Romero. Those of you who've followed us from the beginning may recognize some of this

Our FD this season will be done with the help of Frank Sinatra and Gloria Estefan

I looked up Sinatra and Estefan and unless they've found some disparate tracks to cut together, they did a duet on "Come Rain or Come Shine" which is...blues/jazz.

 

[lauravvv]

Not to interrupt what's been a very interesting discussion that I'd like to add to later, but we have an announcement!!!

I looked up Sinatra and Estefan and unless they've found some disparate tracks to cut together, they did a duet on "Come Rain or Come Shine" which is...blues/jazz.

Oh, thank you very much, lavenderblue! I have been waiting for their music announcement quite impatiently. I am glad for the FD music. The Sinatra/Estefan version has no sound on YouTube, but I listened to the Sinatra version. It has some blues in it indeed, and I guess that the duet with Estefan could be even more bluesy.

 

[Emdee]

Excellent response to such a dumb comment. And I agree about Paul's posture. It's not bad, but it doesn't look natural IMO.





While Mitch is not as natural as projecting at Alex, I agree with skatingfan04 that to suggest that his expression is nonexistent is silly.
http://youtu.be/q-1_hSy2u8U?t=1m56s
And the criteria states the projection can be between the partners rather than out to the audience, which is what they did very well in W.E.

Projection is also a very small percentage of the criteria, so you simply can't disregard technical ability because of a supposed weakness in that one area. If the judges lose their desire to award marks for all the technical and movement aspects of the skate because they don't like the way the team is performing, they're really bad and/or corrupt judges.



Yes, you have to judge a skater on the content they're executing, not what their theoretical ability might be. When G/P are executing much simpler content than P/I, it makes it more complicated to rate Paul's skill level next to them. P/I are superior skaters from a judging perspective both because they're superior to Piper and they're executing more difficult content.





Uh... so which is it? Should we look at his programs with Vanessa to see that he's superior to present-day P/I? If P/I are doing equally or more difficult content as well, does that mean they win? Are we supposed to look at Paul currently skating with Piper, even though he's forced to execute simpler content, and just assume that he's improved at a certain rate since then without him having to actually demonstrate this on the ice for us?



Oh, ok. You often praise G/P at P/I's expense in this thread, so I get confused and forget that.

Boy, you love to argue.

I think we should agree to disagree ....I am busy packing for Tahiti and don't have the time to continue this. But I wish both teams well and hope they achieve whatever they want this year.

 

[skatingfan04]

Not to interrupt what's been a very interesting discussion that I'd like to add to later, but we have an announcement!!!



I looked up Sinatra and Estefan and unless they've found some disparate tracks to cut together, they did a duet on "Come Rain or Come Shine" which is...blues/jazz.

Ok, so we nailed the blues thing right on the head. I'm liking this already. It's smooth and sultry. I'm thinking this is the result of their experiment with that gala a few months ago. Definitely a departure from their usual.

The SD choices are GORGEOUS. I'm surprised they recycled old music, but it's so lovely that I don't mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLCbKZ8kvNI

 

[lavenderblue]

I couldn't have said it better Canadablue. That is the very essence of why I like them so much. They portray that feeling of togetherness whether it's romantic or sexual tension between a man and woman into their dance.....very much like V/M, but have their own style of doing it. I hope ice dance goes back in that direction after the past couple of years.

I also appreciate the softer, more romantic style that P/I present together (and the new FD should hopefully show that off well!), but I think here connection also means how they move together -- how they respond to one another while dancing and skating, on a more technical level. It's hard to single out particular moments because the very essence of how they perform comes down to being able to move as one, but these isolated examples might give an idea of their strength of connection in that sense, the awareness of one another:

2011 Nationals FD
2011 Nationals SD
2013 Nebelhorn FD
2014 Worlds FD

Which is just a sampling, but I think that sort of helps illustrate it?

 

[canadablue]

I looked up Sinatra and Estefan and unless they've found some disparate tracks to cut together, they did a duet on "Come Rain or Come Shine" which is...blues/jazz.

Finally!! Thanks for informing us lavenderblue. That sounds like an absolutely fabulous choice for them. Something they can use all their strengths, but enough of a new direction to show some real growth too. How exciting!

I also appreciate the softer, more romantic style that P/I present together (and the new FD should hopefully show that off well!), but I think here connection also means how they move together -- how they respond to one another while dancing and skating, on a more technical level. It's hard to single out particular moments because the very essence of how they perform comes down to being able to move as one, but these isolated examples might give an idea of their strength of connection in that sense, the awareness of one another:

And thank you once again because that is exactly what I was trying to describe. They can only skate as close and match as well as they do by that kind of awareness. Perhaps my favourite part of W.E. is the diagonal step sequence, the Worlds performance in particular. The fluid changes of hold, how Mitch twirls her while sustaining his edge, the moment you linked from Nebelhorn, Alex going into a lunge position with their legs lines still managing to match, ending with the seamless reconnection after their final twizzles. It's phenomenal.

Boy, you love to argue.

I think we should agree to disagree ....I am busy packing for Tahiti and don't have the time to continue this. But I wish both teams well and hope they achieve whatever they want this year.

I like to discuss, and I like information to be accurate. Lot of people like to say things that they are either unable to or can't be bothered to back up, but then pretend it's somehow unfair or inappropriate for someone to call them on it when what they're saying is either wrong or not making sense. It's entirely appropriate to point out why criticism of that team and praise of that team's rivals is inaccurate in that team's own thread.

 

[geoskate]

If P/I continue to progress up the international ranks this season (as I expect they will), I think we can expect additional random posts attacking everything about them, from posters who live in other countries. (I am NOT referring to posts from Canadian posters who see a particular weakness in P/I, and comment on that perceived weakness).

I think it's actually a compliment to Paul/Islam. IMO it's an indication that certain posters in other coutries feel that P/I are a threat to a team or teams from their own country. IMO people are recognizing that the potential is there now for Paul/Islam to break through to some major achievements in the next season or two, and some posters will see that as a threat to their own favourites.

 

[lavenderblue]

Although I also think it should be acknowledged that P/I's fanbase certainly extends beyond Canada. I know firsthand that some of their biggest fans are American, and it's clear from Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr that they have plenty of support in Japan, Germany, Russia, etc. as well. And, of course, there are additional non-Canadian posters in this thread who are supportive of the team.

 

[Marta24]

Well.I`m not Canadian and a huge Paul/Islam fan. I`m generally a fan of Canadian Ice Dance couples.
Their choice for the FD sounds great,it`s definitely an opportunity to breach out a little bit. I`m so glad when they changed to Detroit, they chose Krylova/Camerlengo. They actually don`t give their top couples standardized FDs, but try to emphasize their strengths, but still try to challenge them. I loved both FDs they got choreographed by Camerlengo,I`m looking forward to this one.

 

[MissT]

Well.I`m not Canadian and a huge Paul/Islam fan. I`m generally a fan of Canadian Ice Dance couples.
Their choice for the FD sounds great,it`s definitely an opportunity to breach out a little bit. I`m so glad when they changed to Detroit, they chose Krylova/Camerlengo. They actually don`t give their top couples standardized FDs, but try to emphasize their strengths, but still try to challenge them. I loved both FDs they got choreographed by Camerlengo,I`m looking forward to this one.

Marta, ditto! I'm not Canadian either, but I tend to love and support many Candian ice skaters! And ita - i love that they're with Camerlengo/Krylova

 

[skatingfan04]

We haven't gotten much from Skate Canada national team camp yet, but here's a shot of P/I (and W/P) speaking to the media:

https://twitter.com/SkateCanada/status/507541392764440576/photo/1

No shots of them on the ice yet.

 

[lavenderblue]

This article will be useful for several threads, but I'll just put it here for now.

Summer Practice in the Detroit Area - Ice Skating International

The second Canadian couple Alexandra Paul and Mitchell Islam, 10th at worlds, also trains in the DSC. Their short dance music is partially the same music they used in 2010 for their Flamenco folk dance. In the free, they dance to a jazzy medley of songs by Frank Sinatra, choreographed by Marie-France Dubreuil and Patrice Lauzon.

D/L are confirmed, which was pretty obvious anyway, but medley...

 

[skatingfan04]

Bring on the paso doble!

http://instagram.com/p/s57pAfJFBd/?modal=true

 

[lauravvv]

Bring on the paso doble!

http://instagram.com/p/s57pAfJFBd/?modal=true

Thanks, skatingfan04. Nice photo.

 

[skatingfan04]

https://twitter.com/SkateCanada/status/513063953383960576/photo/1

 

[clarie]

So cute. They are all good friends and it's nice to see.

 

[Pratfall]

I've been lurking and enjoying ... I love the paso doble picture. I keep clicking it up because it's so darn cute. Are we lucky, or what?.. and I must say, look at the beautiful position on Alex . Oh, don't get me wrong, I love Kaitlyn (adored last years tango to bits).. but she's standing next to a perfect position, there.

I'm getting a bit fevered waiting to see these programs ( for both couples, actually ). At least Nebelhorn is close, now , but will I survive until Barrie ?

I'm very excited to see the D/L choreo , there's some lovely stuff in P/O's program , and I assume that's D/L's work. I don't know if they were wholly responsible for H/D's Picasso program, but it was one of my favourite programs of the year.

 

[lauravvv]

I'm very excited to see the D/L choreo , there's some lovely stuff in P/O's program , and I assume that's D/L's work. I don't know if they were wholly responsible for H/D's Picasso program, but it was one of my favourite programs of the year.

I personally don't like Paradis/Ouellette's FD that much - while nice, it's too cliche throughout (in my opinion), so I hope it's not Dubreuil/Lauzon's choreography. Hurtado/Diaz's Picasso FD was choreographed by David Wilson.

 

[Pratfall]

Re: H/D... Ah, that explains it..why didn't I guess ? Loved the program and the costumes.

And about P/O ..I agree as to the overall program, but there were some very nice bits within it that took my fancy...highlights that seemed to come up unexpectedly... I might be confusing them with C/B-G who I like, but seriously don't like their FD music, this year. Both couples wore white at Quebec SS, I seem to recall.

Anyway, I'm sure P/I would be a dream for any choreographer to work with.

I remember, when I was a kid, my mother sewed the costumes for a Jazz - themed ballet. One of the leads had a blue silk satin dress, sort of on the borderline between a jewelly blue and a deep turquoise. I keep seeing that colour on Alex in my mind's eye. Slinky!

The wait is getting to me.

 

[lauravvv]

Re: H/D... Ah, that explains it..why didn't I guess ? Loved the program and the costumes.

Yes, it seems that Wilson has a talent in choreographing for ice dancers, although he rarely does that. Actually, except Dubreuil/Lauzon themselves, I don't know anyone else in ice dance whom Wilson choreographed for. I wish he did that more often. On the other hand, probably then the percentage of mediocre ice dance programs done by him would be just as large as it is in programs for singles.

I remember, when I was a kid, my mother sewed the costumes for a Jazz - themed ballet. One of the leads had a blue silk satin dress, sort of on the borderline between a jewelly blue and a deep turquoise. I keep seeing that colour on Alex in my mind's eye. Slinky!

I agree - that is a beautiful colour, but as the song is also a bit bluesy, I am imagining a darker/more intense colour. Actually, dark blue would be great.

 

[lavenderblue]

Wilson also choreographed P/I's own 2011-12 FD to Elton John's "Tonight." And of course, we've seen D/L's previous work for P/I in "As Time Goes By," which was a lovely piece. I'm hoping with a more advanced P/I and a more experienced D/L, we can see something even better this time around.

And I'd LOVE to see Alex in the turquoise/teal family. She needs to return to blue, it's such a beautiful color for her.

 

[skatingfan04]

The wait is getting to me.

Tell me about it. I just want to see their programs already! (and Weaver/Poje's, but at least we'll see those next week)

Wilson also choreographed P/I's own 2011-12 FD to Elton John's "Tonight." And of course, we've seen D/L's previous work for P/I in "As Time Goes By," which was a lovely piece. I'm hoping with a more advanced P/I and a more experienced D/L, we can see something even better this time around.

And I'd LOVE to see Alex in the turquoise/teal family. She needs to return to blue, it's such a beautiful color for her.

'Tonight' is one of my favourite of P/I's programs. I also adored Dubreuil/Lauzon's 'Somwhere in Time.' I'd love to see P/I work with Wilson again sometime. He really does have a knack for making great ice dance programs.

Also, I may die of happiness if Alex wears turquoise this season.

 

[Pratfall]

Only 20 more sleeps to go..

I've just watched W/P's SD from Nebelhorn. I like it very much, but can't wait to see P/I's styling ( especially Alex).

 

[lavenderblue]

It's getting closer!

Saw this today -- their ISU bio has finally been updated (along with many, many others, if you look around) and their FD songs are officially:

Come Rain or Come Shine by Frank Sinatra
The Way You Look Tonight by Frank Sinatra

I'm glad they've gone with two cuts; the word "medley" had me a little nervous for something more than the minimum needed to provide some tempo variety, but these two should work together pretty well, I think, after giving them a few back-to-back listens. Thematically they're a great pair.