NYT takes on Russian ladies skating - it’s ruining lives and the sport

[caseyedwards]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/sports/olympics/russia-womens-figure-skating.html?WT.nav=top-news&action=click&clickSource=story-heading&hp&module=photo-spot-region&pgtype=Homepage&referer=https://www.nytimes.com/&region=top-news

By Jere Longman

“Nearly three decades after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russian women have advanced to the forefront of skating in a wave, not unlike tennis players did after the millennium. And skating officials are coming to terms with exactly what that means in terms of maturity of performance and sustainability of health.”

 

[BlueRidge]

excerpt for those who don't have access:

Medvedeva is the third high-profile Russian skater to have had her career disrupted lately because of injury or an eating disorder.

Her fragile foot has raised continued questions about whether Russia’s reliance on tiny young female skaters — who best succeed with the difficult jumps required in today’s scoring system — has put some elite performers at risk of getting hurt and having their careers derailed while they are still teenagers.

Adelina Sotnikova, who in 2014 won Russia’s first Olympic gold medal for women in singles skating at age 17, has missed this entire Olympic season, citing injury.

Yulia Lipnitskaya, who won a gold medal in 2014 in the inaugural team skating competition at age 15, retired last August, saying she had struggled with anorexia.

“We didn’t have such a situation before,” said Alexander Lakernik, a Russian who is vice president of the International Skating Union, the sport’s governing body. “We must see what happens with this generation of young girls.”

 

[oleada]

I’m not sure you can blame Medvedeva’s injury on anything other than she’s an elite athlete and elite athletes struggle with injury at points. I can’t think of a skater from any country who hasn’t dealt with a significant injury at one point.

 

[BlueRidge]

ITA about Med. I think the only thing that raises questions is that the Russian ladies don't seem to have longevity, but even there, that's not really true. Its not the "system" that has left Tuk or Radio behind. And they point to Julia but her situation is not that different from Gracie's so that's more individual I think than to do with the Russian training regimes.

 

[Vash01]

This sounds like a very biased article. Almost Every elite athlete goes through injuries. Basketball players, football players, track stars, gymnasts, and of course figure skaters have to deal with injuries at times.

How conveniently they forgot about injuries to US skaters- past and present- and about Hanyu's serious injury which is going to cost him dearly. Ankle injuries in particular are very common in FS, for the most obvious reason.

 

[giselle23]

This sounds like a very biased article. Almost Every elite athlete goes through injuries. Basketball players, football players, track stars, gymnasts, and of course figure skaters have to deal with injuries at times.

How conveniently they forgot about injuries to US skaters- past and present- and about Hanyu's serious injury which is going to cost him dearly. Ankle injuries in particular are very common in FS, for the most obvious reason.

This is what happens when people that don't know the sport try to sound like experts once every 4 years, just because they are journalists.

The article mentions Gracie. It also quotes Johnny Weir as saying American skaters are more prone to injury, the suggestion being that the Russian method of training is better.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Thanks for the link. The NYT has this one right IMO.

These are young growing bodies
And Vash....yes sport has injury. By you do not see 15 year old boys on football teams. Not only are their bodies immature but so is their judgment and maturity. Carolina will skip a day if she wakes up and doesn't feel well. She knows where she can push and where she shouldn't. Young skaters don't have that long view yet.

 

[missing]

This sounds like a very biased article. Almost Every elite athlete goes through injuries. Basketball players, football players, track stars, gymnasts, and of course figure skaters have to deal with injuries at times.

How conveniently they forgot about injuries to US skaters- past and present- and about Hanyu's serious injury which is going to cost him dearly. Ankle injuries in particular are very common in FS, for the most obvious reason.

This is what happens when people that don't know the sport try to sound like experts once every 4 years, just because they are journalists.

I haven't read the article, so this isn't about whether I agree with it or not.

But Jere Longman is hardly a person who doesn't know the sport and tries to sound like an expert every 4 years.

He recently wrote an article about his years covering skating, starting in 1991.

Here is a reference to him from Ellyn Kestnbaum's book from 2003:

[paste:font size="4"]Culture on Ice: Figure Skating & Cultural Meaning Ellyn Kestnbaum - 2003 - ‎Social Science


Among the American sportswriters who have made figure skating their beat, the most prominent include Philip Hersh of the Chicago Tribune, Jere Longman of the New York Times, Joann Barnas of the Detroit Free Press, E. M. Swift of Sports Illustrated, and, most notably, Christine Brennan, formerly of the Washington Post, ...

 

[hanca]

Alright, they named Sotnikova and Medvedeva as having injuries and Lipnitskaya as having eating disorder, and yet they conveniently forgot Edmunds and Wagner’s injuries and Gold having eating disorder.

 

[soogar]

The article mentions Gracie. It also quotes Johnny Weir as saying American skaters are more prone to injury, the suggestion being that the Russian method of training is better.

He's not the only athlete that says that. Another US skater, Alex Johnson had done a summer seminar with Mishin and said that it was nice to see that people weren't falling all over the place [my paraphrase , this was a TSL interview]. Surprised Tom Z is even quoted in this article considering his belief in high volume training to maintain and develop fast twitch muscles (paraphrasing his words in his TSL interview.) I will never forget Joshua Farris skating his US nationals long program to completion after breaking his leg.

 

[Seerek]

We were always going to reach this technical crossroads of the IJS at some point, it just so happened the Russian (and to a lesser extent, Japanese) women reached it/figured it out first.

I know in rhythmic gymnastics, the Russian women are able to easily win pretty much all the individual events with crazy D scores.

 

[Vash01]

ITA about Med. I think the only thing that raises questions is that the Russian ladies don't seem to have longevity, but even there, that's not really true. Its not the "system" that has left Tuk or Radio behind. And they point to Julia but her situation is not that different from Gracie's so that's more individual I think than to do with the Russian training regimes.

Medvedeva's injury is not that uncommon in figure skating, irrespective of the country. Same goes for Sotnikova and Julia's injuries. Is anyone complaining about injuries to men because of the high number of quads? At least so far i have not seen articles about it. The sport is more competitive than it was 10 years ago, but at that time it was more competitive than 20 years ago. Athletes push themselves to the max. I don't know if IJS rule changes would stop that, but I am going OT here.

Part of the reason we don't see longevity there is it is highly competitive among ladies, as you indicated. Leonova, Lipnitskaya, Tuk are still competing. It's just that they are no longer among the top ladies there, so we don't see many repeat champions or repeat appearances at worlds. I don't see this as a negative, but rather an incredibly deep pool of talented skaters who are competing for world/Olympic spots. Medvedeva has been dominant and it is too early to say how long she will be around. If she was from the USA or Canada or Italy, she would be competing at worlds for the next five years. I see this as a success rather than a failure of their system.

Eating disorders happen anywhere, in any country. Jenny Kirk, Akiko Suzuki, Jamie Silverstein and many others went through it. I have not yet seen Nancy Kerrigan!s documentary. So it seems unfair to blame the Russian system for similar problems there. I will agree that there were more cases among pairs skaters, and in one particular coach's group, but i don't see this as something that happens only in Russia (if that's what the writer is driving at).

 

[Vash01]

I haven't read the article, so this isn't about whether I agree with it or not.

But Jere Longman is hardly a person who doesn't know the sport and tries to sound like an expert every 4 years.

He recently wrote an article about his years covering skating, starting in 1991.

Here is a reference to him from Ellyn Kestnbaum's book from 2003:

[paste:font size="4"]Culture on Ice: Figure Skating & Cultural Meaning Ellyn Kestnbaum - 2003 - ‎Social Science


Among the American sportswriters who have made figure skating their beat, the most prominent include Philip Hersh of the Chicago Tribune, Jere Longman of the New York Times, Joann Barnas of the Detroit Free Press, E. M. Swift of Sports Illustrated, and, most notably, Christine Brennan, formerly of the Washington Post, ...

I guess i should delete the last paragraph in my post. My opinion about injuries stands though. Athletes do get injured, independent of countries.

 

[barbk]

Alright, they named Sotnikova and Medvedeva as having injuries and Lipnitskaya as having eating disorder, and yet they conveniently forgot Edmunds and Wagner’s injuries and Gold having eating disorder.

No, the article specifically mentions Gold: "Injuries and eating disorders are common in figure skating, affecting skaters from many countries. Gracie Gold of the United States, who finished fourth at the 2014 Olympics in singles skating and won a bronze in the team competition, is out of skating at the moment for what she described as depression, anxiety and an eating disorder."

It also mentions Lipinski: "And it is also reminiscent of the training of Tara Lipinski of the United States, who won the 1998 Winter Olympics at age 15 but later needed hip surgery after all her obsessive and repetitive jumping."

It doesn't read as a bash-the-Russians article at all. It is musing about the intensity of training for young female figure skaters and the injuries/illnesses that seem to arise as we use them up...with another young 'un waiting in the wings.

 

[caseyedwards]

No, the article specifically mentions Gold: "Injuries and eating disorders are common in figure skating, affecting skaters from many countries. Gracie Gold of the United States, who finished fourth at the 2014 Olympics in singles skating and won a bronze in the team competition, is out of skating at the moment for what she described as depression, anxiety and an eating disorder."

It also mentions Lipinski: "And it is also reminiscent of the training of Tara Lipinski of the United States, who won the 1998 Winter Olympics at age 15 but later needed hip surgery after all her obsessive and repetitive jumping."

It doesn't read as a bash-the-Russians article at all. It is musing about the intensity of training for young female figure skaters and the injuries/illnesses that seem to arise as we use them up...with another young 'un waiting in the wings.

“Russia’s reliance on tiny young female skaters”

I mean “tiny”? Give me a break! It’s totally trying to make them horrible victims of evil Russian federation! “Leave the tiny girls alone!! “ nonsense

 

[Vash01]

No, the article specifically mentions Gold: "Injuries and eating disorders are common in figure skating, affecting skaters from many countries. Gracie Gold of the United States, who finished fourth at the 2014 Olympics in singles skating and won a bronze in the team competition, is out of skating at the moment for what she described as depression, anxiety and an eating disorder."

It also mentions Lipinski: "And it is also reminiscent of the training of Tara Lipinski of the United States, who won the 1998 Winter Olympics at age 15 but later needed hip surgery after all her obsessive and repetitive jumping."

It doesn't read as a bash-the-Russians article at all. It is musing about the intensity of training for young female figure skaters and the injuries/illnesses that seem to arise as we use them up...with another young 'un waiting in the wings.

In that case the headline is misleading. However, it is not just the headline. The article is focused on what is wrong with the Russian ladies, and particularly with Medvedeva, while making only a fleeting remark about Tara (hip surgery) and Gracie (eating disorder). I find that unfair and biased. Any athlete that pushes himself or herself to the limit (sometimes even without pushing to the limit) is likely to have injuries. Making it sound like mainly Russian ladies experience problems is unfair to them as well as to skaters from other countries who have suffered injuries.

Some of the concerns are valid. There is a concern about young bodies, but the system is fir everyone, and anybody can take advantage if the rules if they were physically capable. Maximizing the points, doing more difficult jumps does affect tiny bodies that are still developing. Isn't that an issue with gymnastics as well? What about young men that practice quads? Chen, Zhou, Jin, Hanyu have all been injured at some point. Why no mention of that, or other American skaters that suffered injuries? Why is Medvedeva's injury not considered a normal thing, while Hanyu's injury is not even mentioned.

At least to me it seems that the intent here is to show that something is wrong with the Russuan system that uses the IJS to improve their chances of winning. Is that so unusual in sports? I don't think so. Ask any football player, for example, how they push their bodies and take advantage of the rules to win games. The Russian ladies have been very successful in recent years and the US ladies have not. To me, this article comes across as sour grapes.

 

[snoopy]

By you do not see 15 year old boys on football teams.

Wut? 15 year old boys are on football teams all over the US.

 

[barbk]

In that case the headline is misleading. However, it is not just the headline. The article is focused on what is wrong with the Russian ladies, and particularly with Medvedeva, while making only a fleeting remark about Tara (hip surgery) and Gracie (eating disorder). I find that unfair and biased. Any athlete that pushes himself or herself to the limit (sometimes even without pushing to the limit) is likely to have injuries. Making it sound like mainly Russian ladies experience problems is unfair to them as well as to skaters from other countries who have suffered injuries.

Some of the concerns are valid. There is a concern about young bodies, but the system is fir everyone, and anybody can take advantage if the rules if they were physically capable. Maximizing the points, doing more difficult jumps does affect tiny bodies that are still developing. Isn't that an issue with gymnastics as well? What about young men that practice quads? Chen, Zhou, Jin, Hanyu have all been injured at some point. Why no mention of that, or other American skaters that suffered injuries? Why is Medvedeva's injury not considered a normal thing, while Hanyu's injury is not even mentioned.

At least to me it seems that the intent here is to show that something is wrong with the Russuan system that uses the IJS to improve their chances of winning. Is that so unusual in sports? I don't think so. Ask any football player, for example, how they push their bodies and take advantage of the rules to win games. The Russian ladies have been very successful in recent years and the US ladies have not. To me, this article comes across as sour grapes.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

My wife and I went to the gas station to get the New York Times, but they do not carry the New York times so we are on the way home. When we get home, we will try to log on to the web site and see if we can read this article. I will post later if we are able to read it.

All though we haven't read it yet, it sounds like the author missed a chance to talk about Nathan Chen since he has been injured at times and still should win the Olympics unless the judges make the worst and most controversial decision of all time.

The article sounds like it is very confusing, but that is "typical" for the Times. I'm glad I do not know anyone who works for the newspaper because it has gone downhill! I'm sure if my wife or I knew someone who used to work there, they would have quit by now!

 

[barbk]

Sour grapes: claiming you don't want what you didn't get.

I'm not sure if you've actually read the article. He compliments Med's artistry and uncanny consistency.

If he was writing about overtraining of young female gymnasts, he'd likely have pointed at the direction of the Karolyi's because that is the dominant program du jour in gymnastics. He's raising questions about whether the overtraining on jumps at such a young age is detrimental to the health of skaters. He draws parallels to the situation with Lipinski: "And it is also reminiscent of the training of Tara Lipinski of the United States, who won the 1998 Winter Olympics at age 15 but later needed hip surgery after all her obsessive and repetitive jumping."

Young women ARE different than young men. Their development is at a different rate. Eating disorders and heavy training can delay or stop menarche, and can have significant consequences for bone and heart health.

These are reasonable questions, much as the questions about concussions in sports.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Sour grapes: claiming you don't want what you didn't get.

That's exactly what i thought the first second....

 

[berthesghost]

to me this was the most on point quote

Several top young skaters from around Russia have been directed to her skating club in Moscow in what Rafael Arutyunyan, who formerly coached there for nearly two decades, calls a "factory of production".

said by Raf, not Frank or Tom. I know I got grief before for calling it a "sweatshop" but that kind of hyperbole wasn't nationalistic, I've said similar things about Tom's "jump factory".

 

[nimi]

Haven't read the NYT article, but when it comes to this topic, there's also this recent interview with Bobrova&Soloviev where they talk about Russian ladies' skating quite a bit. Here's an excerpt (translation from fs gossips):

The problem is that for girls this “shelf life” is extremely short. It turns out that at the age of 15-16 you go to the peak of your shape and you have two years to stay in seniors and try to withstand till the Olympics, because everyone is aiming for this competitions. To hold on for four years at this level – I do not know how this is possible, to be honest. Physiology just will not let you.

So it turns out that at 20 years old skaters will retire?

Katya: This is the main problem. We did have so many beautiful, bright girls who at the age of 25 and 30 skated and won medals. If before the peak of a career for singles was 25-27, now being 20 you are a veteran. This is sad.

 

[caseyedwards]

Haven't read the NYT article, but when it comes to this topic, there's also this recent interview with Bobrova&Soloviev where they talk about Russian ladies' skating quite a bit. Here's an excerpt (translation from fs gossips):

She should focus less on ladies and more about her teams dismal dismal performances that has meant no shot at Olympics medal which is a historic first for Russia. Her career shows you can be in the sport a long time and never improve things like posture!

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

My wife and I just read the article. (We found a copy of the "Times" at the Best Western.) We ate her famous sloppy Joe's while we read it and a piece of meat fell on the picture of Medevedeveda.

This issue is confusing! I got lost when they were saying skaters were coming out of a factory. I hope they do not have to work so hard that they do not have energy left for skating. If the skaters are going hungry, have them stop by our house for sloppy Joe's anytime!

 

[misskarne]

Surprised Tom Z is even quoted in this article considering his belief in high volume training to maintain and develop fast twitch muscles (paraphrasing his words in his TSL interview.) I will never forget Joshua Farris skating his US nationals long program to completion after breaking his leg.

and then telling him in the kiss and cry "aren't you glad you did that?". Josh's howled "no!" is something you can't erase from your mind. And then we found out he was also doing it with a torn muscle and the aftermath of anaphylactic shock. That 2011 Nationals FS will forever be one of the worst examples of competing when you really, really shouldn't.

I don't trust Z as far as I could throw him.

 

[vesperholly]

and then telling him in the kiss and cry "aren't you glad you did that?". Josh's howled "no!" is something you can't erase from your mind. And then we found out he was also doing it with a torn muscle and the aftermath of anaphylactic shock. That 2011 Nationals FS will forever be one of the worst examples of competing when you really, really shouldn't.

I don't trust Z as far as I could throw him.

I hadn't seen that video before so I finally watched it. The skating isn't as cringeworthy as you'd think - and Josh's phenomenal talent is evident - but Tom Z was just terrible in the K&C. Now, he had no way of knowing that Josh broke his fibula, considering that the fall didn't look that bad and Josh continued on without interruption (although skating exceptionally poorly). But poor Josh kept repeating "I can't walk" and looked beyond despondent. And Tom's just blabbering on with conciliatory language like Josh just had a bit of a rough skate, no big deal, what a fighter, blah blah blah. But really, Josh shouldn't have even tried to skate after the incident the night before the FS, and probably not even in the SP with the torn muscle. My heart just broke for him.

I hope Farris's family fired him with all the gusto it deserved, and I'm very glad that he went on to have success with Christy Krall.

 

[ilovepaydays]

By you do not see 15 year old boys on football teams. Not only are their bodies immature but so is their judgment and maturity.

It's common for boys to be in tackle football in middle school. The health fears are why some states have talked about implementing age restrictions on at least public school football. Not just concussion issues, but also because of the damage tackle football can do to their entire body.

If he was writing about overtraining of young female gymnasts, he'd likely have pointed at the direction of the Karolyi's because that is the dominant program du jour in gymnastics.

Weren't everyone on the 2012 U.S. women's gymnastics team bodes' basically broken by the time they arrived in London? It's unreal that they were able to compete, much less be anywhere as successful as they were.

and then telling him in the kiss and cry "aren't you glad you did that?". Josh's howled "no!" is something you can't erase from your mind. And then we found out he was also doing it with a torn muscle and the aftermath of anaphylactic shock. That 2011 Nationals FS will forever be one of the worst examples of competing when you really, really shouldn't.

I don't trust Z as far as I could throw him.

I hadn't seen that video before so I finally watched it. The skating isn't as cringeworthy as you'd think - and Josh's phenomenal talent is evident - but Tom Z was just terrible in the K&C. Now, he had no way of knowing that Josh broke his fibula, considering that the fall didn't look that bad and Josh continued on without interruption (although skating exceptionally poorly). But poor Josh kept repeating "I can't walk" and looked beyond despondent. And Tom's just blabbering on with conciliatory language like Josh just had a bit of a rough skate, no big deal, what a fighter, blah blah blah. But really, Josh shouldn't have even tried to skate after the incident the night before the FS, and probably not even in the SP with the torn muscle. My heart just broke for him.

I hope Farris's family fired him with all the gusto it deserved, and I'm very glad that he went on to have success with Christy Krall.

But Tom Z. has continued to coach has since continued to coach Max, Mirai, Vincent.....

I have wondered why Joshua's parents didn't insist on him withdrawing after he was in the ER. Maybe Tom Z. thought if he was really fine enough to compete.

I'm really glad that when Joshua started to have issues again last year, he stopped (I'm assuming) ASAP. True, he is a bit older now, but I'm glad his coaching team was supportive, even if it means that he is probably done skating.

 

[AxelAnnie]

It's common for boys to be in tackle football in middle school. The health fears are why some states have talked about implementing age restrictions on at least public school football. Not just concussion issues, but also because of the damage tackle football can do to their entire body.



Weren't everyone on the 2012 U.S. women's gymnastics team bodes' basically broken by the time they arrived in London? It's unreal that they were able to compete, much less be anywhere as successful as they were.





But Tom Z. has continued to coach has since continued to coach Max, Mirai, Vincent.....

I have wondered why Joshua's parents didn't insist on him withdrawing after he was in the ER. Maybe Tom Z. thought if he was really fine enough to compete.

I'm really glad that when Joshua started to have issues again last year, he stopped (I'm assuming) ASAP. True, he is a bit older now, but I'm glad his coaching team was supportive, even if it means that he is probably done skating.

My point about football is that it is closely monitored by age. No one expects 15 yo boys to play like Bret Farve. Yet we expect zagatova to have everything in her arsenal..And no padding or helmut

 

[quiqie]

I read the article. IMO, the writer could have gotten his point across simply by writing “Russians are winning in the field that used to be dominated by the Americans and it’s Not ****ing Fair” instead of this load of concern trolling.