Nobunari Oda: Harassment forced me to quit as Kansai University coach

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
52,292
Since we’re sort of on the topic, I always thought your dominant hand determined what direction you spin, jump, skate, but Maia Shibutani said she’s left-handed but naturally spins clockwise.
Did you mean to say counter-clockwise? Most skaters spin and jump that way which is why public sessions have the skaters moving around the rink in a counter-clockwise way.

My sister is right-handed but spins and jumps the other way (clockwise).

From what I've seen, most right-handed people spin the dominant way and most left-handed skaters spin the other way but there are definitely exceptions.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
39,960
Did you mean to say counter-clockwise? Most skaters spin and jump that way which is why public sessions have the skaters moving around the rink in a counter-clockwise way.

My sister is right-handed but spins and jumps the other way (clockwise).

From what I've seen, most right-handed people spin the dominant way and most left-handed skaters spin the other way but there are definitely exceptions.

Sorry, I meant to say she’s right-handed but naturally skates clockwise. I edited the original post, haha. She skates/spins counter-clockwise for Alex. I think it helps that she’s in ice dance and not pairs where jumps and throws and stuff are elements.
 

Rukia

A Southern, hot-blooded temperamental individual
Messages
16,712
I'm right handed, but I'm a clockwise rotator. Actually several of the adults I skate with are like that. It still confuses me when people ask if I'm a lefty. I always tell them I'm right-handed, and they say, "Yeah, but you're a lefty in skating."
 

TAHbKA

Cats and garlic lover
Messages
20,041
Are Radionova and Sotnikova clockwise jumpers but jump counter clockwise in competition?
No, they are more comfortable doing things clockwise, but were taught from a very young age to spin/jump counter clockwise.
Did you mean that the Japanese coach MAKES the clockwise skaters who jumped/spinned clockwise their whole lives suddenly change the directions? Forgive me if I don't believe a coach who works with a skater individually and not in a group of 20-50 kids would do it or an elite coach would shoot himself in a leg that way....

@TAHbKA, I think Bonjour Sherry is just stating that in figure skating where direction and rotation is incredibly important, it would be in everyone’s best interest if coaches in Japan started allowing clockwise skaters to actually skate in their natural direction. I know there is a real safety/logistical issue in Japan itself, but I can’t really accept that “nothing” can be done to better serve clockwise skaters. It seems every expert or champion skater-turned-commentator who talks about it when a skater spins in their opposite direction always states how incredibly difficult it is to do that. I can’t help but think a skater who is forced to skate in his/her opposite direction cannot hit their maximum potential and I wonder how many potential competitive skaters may be lost at young ages due to frustration with the inability to adapt.
Well then again, we get back to violin players. Cello players. Speed skaters. Should they be allowed doing things to their natural direction? No? Why not?

It seems to me the allowing/not allowing clock wise skaters develop depends on whether they start practicing individually or in a huge group. In a huge group you can't have one kid skating in an opposite direction. If it's just you and the coach on the ice - why not?

I can only think of skaters from USA, Canada and Italy being clockwise. Which would make Japan a rule, rather than an exception.

At any rate, am not sure Hamada is Miyahara's first coach, so the question whether Miyahara is clockwise skater and was allowed to develop to the natural direction should go there?

I was going to write there is a skater who can do all the jumps up to 2A in both directions, so it must be possible. But then that skater is Lambiel. Seems that 90% of what he does is not quite possible anyway :swoon:
 

Rukia

A Southern, hot-blooded temperamental individual
Messages
16,712
No, they are more comfortable doing things clockwise, but were taught from a very young age to spin/jump counter clockwise.
Did you mean that the Japanese coach MAKES the clockwise skaters who jumped/spinned clockwise their whole lives suddenly change the directions? Forgive me if I don't believe a coach who works with a skater individually and not in a group of 20-50 kids would do it or an elite coach would shoot himself in a leg that way....

I've always heard that Miyahara started skating in the US because her parents were expats, and she rotated clockwise. When they moved back to Japan they made her switch directions because they don't allow clockwise rotation in crowded Japanese rinks. I don't have a citation for that or anything though. Hopefully someone else does.
 

TAHbKA

Cats and garlic lover
Messages
20,041
I've always heard that Miyahara started skating in the US because her parents were expats, and she rotated clockwise. When they moved back to Japan they made her switch directions because they don't allow clockwise rotation in crowded Japanese rinks. I don't have a citation for that or anything though. Hopefully someone else does.
According to wikipedia
`Miyahara was born on March 26, 1998 in Kyoto, Japan. Her parents are both doctors. Due to her parents' work, she moved with her family to Houston, Texas when she was five years old and had returned to Kyoto by the age of seven. Miyahara learned English during her time in the United States.'


Again, sounds like most of the countries make a rule skating counter clock wise, while USA/Canada/Italy are an exception. And again, the question is how many skaters are on the ice at once during the practices in those exceptional countries. My bet - no THAT many
 
S

SmallFairy

Guest
Nordic countries have/had skaters rotating in whatever direction that felt natural to them, and I guess other smaller Feds too.
Sweden-Vicky Helgesson, Norway-Linnea Kolstad Kilsand, Finland- Susanna Pöykiö.
 

bladesofgorey

Well-Known Member
Messages
936
Did you mean to say counter-clockwise? Most skaters spin and jump that way which is why public sessions have the skaters moving around the rink in a counter-clockwise way.

My sister is right-handed but spins and jumps the other way (clockwise).

From what I've seen, most right-handed people spin the dominant way and most left-handed skaters spin the other way but there are definitely exceptions.

My understanding from some studies from a while back on dancers and incidentally skaters (that I suddenly can't dig up quickly) is that natural dominant spinning direction often has more to do with which eye direction is dominant versus which limb is.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
39,960
@TAHbKA, I already explained why I think it’s important in figure skating. I don’t know enough about cello or violin playing to comment but I skimmed a few comments saying both hands are needed to play those instruments so being right-handed or left-handed will give each unique advantages. That said, I think we can talk about this issue in figure skating and seeing it possibly being a problem unique to figure skating without invoking examples of other activities and sports that are not the same and thus do not have the same challenges.

I’m also a bit confused as to why you are being a bit resistant to the idea of at least discussing the opportunity for coaches to learn how teach clockwise skaters. I did not say it was easy and I did say I understand there are logistical issues, but I also think ultimately, finding a solution would benefit skaters which will then benefit the coaches/feds.
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,154
Since we’re sort of on the topic, I always thought your dominant hand determined what direction you spin, jump, skate, but Maia Shibutani said she’s right-handed but naturally spins clockwise. I wonder what is the dominant factor that determines it. Is it one of those things that is unknown but tends to go hand-in-hand with which hand you dominantly use?

My understanding is that rotational preference is primarily about eye dominance . . . which usually matches handedness but not always.

I have no links to support this, however.

Well then again, we get back to violin players. Cello players. Speed skaters. Should they be allowed doing things to their natural direction? No? Why not?

Doing things in groups (orchestras, races or practices with more than one skater on the ice at a time), it does make a difference.

For solo performances it shouldn't bother anyone else to be bowing with the opposite hand. But it would mean learning different fingering and bowing techniques right from the start.

This reminds me of 6th grade orchestra class when the kids thought it was funny to swap instruments when we had a substitute teacher. The first one to get caught was a drummer who was left handed and was quickly smoked out of the violin section when he was holding the instrument and bow in the wrong hands.

It seems to me the allowing/not allowing clock wise skaters develop depends on whether they start practicing individually or in a huge group. In a huge group you can't have one kid skating in an opposite direction. If it's just you and the coach on the ice - why not?

Exactly.

I can only think of skaters from USA, Canada and Italy being clockwise. Which would make Japan a rule, rather than an exception.

I can think of some others, but none from USSR/Russia or Asia, aside from some Americans or Canadians skating for other countries.

Susanna Poykio comes to mind as another European example.

My freestyle coach is from Eastern Europe and identifies as a clockwise skater, although she says some of her jumps she did counterclockwise (probably including double lutz IIRC -- in her era only Denise Biellmann, also clockwise, had a triple lutz).

For a long time, the only clockwise triple axels I'd ever seen by a non-North American were from a couple of Slovakian guys around the turn of the century:
Robert Kazimir and Jurai Sviatko (can't find video)

I don't count David Liu because he learned to skate in the US and as far as I know only tried the 3A in competition once, not coming close.

Then this year on the JGP we got Andrey Kokura UKR

I was going to write there is a skater who can do all the jumps up to 2A in both directions, so it must be possible. But then that skater is Lambiel.
And Rohene Ward.
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,154
opportunity for coaches to learn how teach clockwise skaters. I did not say it was easy and I did say I understand there are logistical issues, but I also think ultimately, finding a solution would benefit skaters which will then benefit the coaches/feds.

I think the issue is training programs where kids train in groups well beyond learn-to-skate levels, including from first jumps through learning double and triple jumps all the way through elite levels.

It's not so much that the coaches don't know how to teach clockwise skills, but that the traffic patterns during the group training session would be disrupted if some skaters were setting up their jumps clockwise and other counterclockwise.

Imagine what a pattern dance practice would be like if some dance teams were doing the dance counterclockwise around the rink according to the pattern, and others were doing a mirror image of the pattern going around the rink clockwise.

Clockwise skaters such as Jayne Torvill just had to adapt to the majority.

Of course it's harder to adapt for triple jumps.
 

TAHbKA

Cats and garlic lover
Messages
20,041
That said, I think we can talk about this issue in figure skating and seeing it possibly being a problem unique to figure skating without invoking examples of other activities and sports that are not the same and thus do not have the same challenges.
Speed skating is EXACTLY the same. Aka at least in the USSR the skaters began in figure skating and than at the age am not sure, 10?12? switched to speedskating. Aka they learned all their crossovers in figure skating.
I’m also a bit confused as to why you are being a bit resistant to the idea of at least discussing the opportunity for coaches to learn how teach clockwise skaters. I did not say it was easy and I did say I understand there are logistical issues, but I also think ultimately, finding a solution would benefit skaters which will then benefit the coaches/feds.
Well, basically am explaining you why 90>10 and why investing in 10 rather than in 90 is not for anyone's benefit except for the said 10. But then you insist 10 are more important than 90. Beats me why, but erm...am done.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
39,960
But I don’t accept that it’s a scenario of anyone having to suffer. I think we’re all smart people and can come up with creative solutions that are time efficient and not too costly to the coach/rink/student. Why is it always when accommodation gets brought up, the whole 10/90 thing gets brought up. Often times, the “90” doesn’t get harmed.

I also think speed skating is very different in that one of the biggest things clockwise and counterclockwise spinning affects is rotation, spinning, and jumping. I mean unless I hear skating experts and skaters themselves actively state it has no bearing on their ability to perform triple or more jumps and demonstrates their jumps will look the same and be as consistent if they were done in their natural direction, then I will lay it to rest. Until then, I’m not one to just accept a status quo that could be stopping potential talent from succeeding in the sport.
 

TAHbKA

Cats and garlic lover
Messages
20,041
But I don’t accept that it’s a scenario of anyone having to suffer.
Ah, so you don't want to put 90 kids in danger so that 10 can skate to the direction they prefer? Good. Am glad we are on the same page.
I think we’re all smart people and can come up with creative solutions that are time efficient and not too costly to the coach/rink/student.
who? The 4-6 y.o kids are all smart people? You're joking, right?
And yes, it would be not efficient to close down the rink for 10 kids out of 100.
Why is it always when accommodation gets brought up, the whole 10/90 thing gets brought up. Often times, the “90” doesn’t get harmed.
Because that, IIRC, the % of lefthanded. Will assume it's the % of clockwise people in the world as well. If you prefer 85/15 - be my guest.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
39,960
Well, we already know spinning direction is not just based on handed-ness but often goes side-by-side. I do think coaches And other adults can think of solutions in training to accommodate clockwise spinners like they do in other skating countries, and safety hasn’t been an issue there. I know some competitive skaters don’t like sharing warm-up time with clockwise skaters, but collisions often can happen between two counter-clockwise skaters anyway.

I know the situation in Japan is unique since there is crowdedness and lack of rinks being an issue. But like I said, difficulty is not impossibility.

And I know you were joking, but I know a lot of 4-6 year olds thanks to my friends and cousins having them and they actually are smart people. It would do us good not to dismiss little children as some times they can come up with solutions as well.
 

cheremary

Well-Known Member
Messages
394
If I may stick my nose into this conversation, I can see validity to both points of view, but I think this issue has more to do with cultural norms and how skaters are trained more than anything else.

In countries like Japan and Russia, there is more of a collectivist mentality and the training methods reflect that, in that skaters tend to train in groups even up to very high levels. In that kind of environment, it just wouldn’t make sense to have one or two people skate in the opposite direction and put others in danger.

In the US, Canada, and perhaps some Western European countries, there is much more emphasis on individuality and skaters are put into private lessons pretty early on. If it’s just the coach and student, there’s no reason not to maximize a skater’s chance at success by allowing them to rotate in their natural direction.

Personally, coming from a dance background, it was bonkers to me when I first found out that skaters only do things in one direction, since dancers do both even if most people have a more dominant or preferred direction. It speaks to how difficult skating is that it’s hard to learn things both ways, but from a physical standpoint, it can really be somewhat damaging to the body to be so lopsided in one direction.
 
Last edited:

thvu

Usova's Apprentice
Messages
7,050
I’m also a bit confused as to why you are being a bit resistant to the idea of at least discussing the opportunity for coaches to learn how teach clockwise skaters. I did not say it was easy and I did say I understand there are logistical issues, but I also think ultimately, finding a solution would benefit skaters which will then benefit the coaches/feds.
Sure, but it's a zero-sum game. I imagine most coaches would think that time would be better spent elsewhere. And in a country like Japan, it would require a special rink, or special sessions to accommodate CW skaters. I can't see any organization with limited resources dedicating resources this way.

As unsavory as it is, organizations run on utilitarianism. Better to benefit 89% of skaters over the 11% that may prefer CW rotation.
 

Tinami Amori

Well-Known Member
Messages
20,157
Well, basically am explaining you why 90>10 and why investing in 10 rather than in 90 is not for anyone's benefit except for the said 10. But then you insist 10 are more important than 90. Beats me why, but erm...am done.

I agree..... but you're not going to win this one here... :rofl: The "progressive belief" lately, that the 90 must not only bend over backwards to inconvenience themselves and accommodate the 10, but to get taxed extra to pay for special accommodations for the 10... :D after all, the lucky 90 were born fortunate and privileged, and deserve to do the pentance. It's a same argument as with what to do if a kid very short in height wants to be a basketball player, should we lower the hoops? or if a tall, large built girl can't manage quads, should we eliminate them, so she can in sometimes... :lol:

Sure, but it's a zero-sum game. I imagine most coaches would think that time would be better spent elsewhere. And in a country like Japan, it would require a special rink, or special sessions to accommodate CW skaters. I can't see any organization with limited resources dedicating resources this way.

As unsavory as it is, organizations run on utilitarianism. Better to benefit 89% of skaters over the 11% that may prefer CW rotation.

Absolutely agree! but only if it is not about "basic life necessity"...... and sports are not!
 
Last edited:

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,154
Even within the US, where most instruction is one on one,

I have witnessed a one-hour "academy" style skating lesson at one of our local rinks once. The skaters were doing stroking patterns around the rink (counterclockwise, but with turns and edges in both directions) and later in the hour they were adding jumps (single, double, or triple, depending on their individual level) at specific points in the patterns.

Since the whole ice was dedicated to this group lesson, they certainly could have done the stroking patterns in both directions and had the skaters add the jumps in their jumping direction, skip the jumps in their bad direction (or do singles rather than the doubles or triples they did in the good direction). That would have been a bit less time efficient for everyone but would improve everybody's skill at multidirectional skating and would allow CW jumpers the same benefits as CCW.

I can't say for sure that they didn't do this -- I didn't watch the whole lesson.

The advantage of academy style instruction is that skaters can get more lesson time for less money.

How does MJM work jump training?

Also, in the US, there used to be perimeter patterns on the intermediate and novice Moves in the Field tests in which skaters did alternating crossovers down the sides of the rink and then a pattern of three turns or rocker-choctaws around the end patterns. The whole patterns needed to be skated in both directions.

When the moves tests were restructured in 2010 to allow introduction of some new skills, the intermediate move was eliminated entirely and the novice moves were combined into a serpentine pattern.

The main reason for these changes was to save time testing those skills to allow for adding new moves.

But the clockwise perimeter had been significant traffic hazards on crowded sessions. The novice serpentine pattern, like many other upper level patterns, is also tricky to fit into crowded sessions. But I haven't experienced or witnessed as many crashes or near crashes with the diagonal and serpentine patterns as with the old clockwise perimeter ones.
 

TAHbKA

Cats and garlic lover
Messages
20,041
And I know you were joking, but I know a lot of 4-6 year olds thanks to my friends and cousins having them and they actually are smart people. It would do us good not to dismiss little children as some times they can come up with solutions as well.
No, I was not joking. You know why the kids are not allowed to cross the street alone till the age (in my country at least) 9? Because they develop the ability to tell the distance around that age. They can't freakin tell whether the object is near or far and estimate how fast that object will collide into them. Ok, not because they are stupid, but because they haven't yet developed that ability. And on the same note- you know why in the USSR the skating and diving began at the age of 4? Because the little human grows sense of fear at the age of 5-6. So having a bunch of 4-6 y.o. and allowing some of them skating to a different direction would be an attempt to murder some of those 4-6 y.o. humans.
As smart as your friends' kids might be
Personally, coming from a dance background, it was bonkers to me when I first found out that skaters only do things in one direction, since dancers do both even if most people have a more dominant or preferred direction. It speaks to how difficult skating is that it’s hard to learn things both ways, but from a physical standpoint, it can really be somewhat damaging to the body to be so lopsided in one direction.
I think it speaks less of how hard skating is, but more of how little it would be awarded. Am sure if the jumps to a an opposite direction (or, rather, same jump in a different direction, say, toeloop clockwise and counterclockwise in the same programme) were costing more the coaches/skaters would invest in that.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
39,960
And yet kids in other countries can skate clockwise and develop that way there because the adults there who are in charge found ways to make it happen. Many of them grow up to be champions. Again, just because something is difficult doesn’t mean we can develop training methods to maximize their capabilities without harming the majority. All I’m saying it’s been done elsewhere and has been done with success so what’s the harm in exploring ways to implement that? I don’t even know how this discussion became as contentious as it has and it perplexed me. I wonder if this how people advocating for the ADA felt.
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,154
I don't know about in Japan, but in Russia and China, for example, state-funded training is not funded for the purpose of self-actualizing any individual who enjoys skating enough to commit their time to training. There are a lot more reasons besides rotational preference why kids in those programs don't get to keep training to older ages.

In places where the skaters are paying all the costs (at least until they reach an international level of competition) and most training happens individually, more personalized training methods are more possible.

But also more expensive.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
35,974
Small children in India navigate vehicle traffic chaos on foot deftly: it's a matter of what they're used to, the expectations, and how behavior is modelled. (Scared the hell out of me to watch, but that is based on my expectations, what I'm used to, and what behavior was modelled.)
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
52,292
The skating direction only applies to jumps and spins because skaters learn to do steps in both directions. (And are required to in order to pass tests.)

For spins, I think it's less of an issue because they happen in place. So you can have two skaters spinning next to each other, one in one direction and the other in the opposite direction and they don't bother each other. However, the entrance to the spins will vary so care needs to be taken there. OTOH, people do spin in both directions at times. (More would do it if the rewards in the scoring system reflected the difficulty IMO.) So I just don't see this as a big issue.

Jumps are really where it comes up and there are several sides to this issue. First, most rinks have people skating counter-clockwise most of the time in public sessions. Sometimes they stop the session and have everyone change direction so there are opportunities to practice that way but it's rare. In a freestyle session, people are supposed to be able to move around the rink in any direction especially when their program music is playing. But mostly most of the skaters will do a lot of what they do in the counter-clockwise direction.

For clockwise skaters, they have 3 choices when it comes to jumps: (1) They can set up counter-clockwise but jump clockwise. (2) They can set up the jump clockwise and just watch out for other skaters (which they should be doing anyway) and then jump clockwise. (3) They can jump counter-clockwise even though it's not natural for them.

In addition, there are skaters who can jump in both directions, at least on singles and sometimes even doubles. I've seen even lower level skaters do this on single revolution jumps so it's not that rare. i.e., only a handful in the world. But it is rare. (Again, I think more people would do this if the rewards in the scoring matched the effort.)

I think there are arguments to be made for all 3 of these choices, btw. In fact, I had a really good argument for why option #3 actually has Pros for clockwise skaters (and not just cons) but then I had to go a meeting and I forgot it. :ROFLMAO:
 

TAHbKA

Cats and garlic lover
Messages
20,041
And yet kids in other countries can skate clockwise and develop that way there because the adults there who are in charge found ways to make it happen. Many of them grow up to be champions.
Kostner = many??
 

Tinami Amori

Well-Known Member
Messages
20,157
It would be great if someone fluent or native in Japanese translates this, if possible.
It has comments made by parents/skaters in the rink, about issues/experience with Oda.

A lot of the wording seems "conversational and informal" and it's best if a native speaker translates it (or parts). Thanks in advance.

 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,154
Kostner = many??

Biellmann

Quite a few North Americans. Let's just say Todd Eldredge, Sarah Hughes, and Kaetlyn Osmond if you want world and Olympic-level champions.

But the point is, training conditions in North America or Western Europe, and who has access to training at all and what they do or do not have to do to maintain that access, are different than in countries with state-sponsored training.

Training in Japan is not state sponsored, but my understanding is that it is more group focused. I could be wrong and would welcome more information.

Since this discussion started out about Miyahara, it would be helpful to know more about what the conditions were under which she was able to train since she returned to Japan at age 7.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
Messages
12,482
I agree..... but you're not going to win this one here... :rofl: The "progressive belief" lately, that the 90 must not only bend over backwards to inconvenience themselves and accommodate the 10, but to get taxed extra to pay for special accommodations for the 10... :D after all, the lucky 90 were born fortunate and privileged, and deserve to do the pentance. It's a same argument as with what to do if a kid very short in height wants to be a basketball player, should we lower the hoops? or if a tall, large built girl can't manage quads, should we eliminate them, so she can in sometimes... :lol:
No need to lower the hoops. If I recall correctly, there is a surgery that can make you a bit taller. It may be slightly uncomfortable/painful because it does involve breaking someone’s legs (and I don’t remember the details how the legs are suddenly made longer). But I guess, while the unlucky 10 will be in pain, the lucky 90 may end up paying for the surgery. On the positive note, the hoops can remain where they are! :lol:
 

rosewood

MTT Meter= 177
Messages
6,187
Talking about Miyahara's situation, at first Hamada said she made Miyahara skate/jump counter-clockwise due to the safety in crowded rinks in Japan. (note: When Miyahara came back to Japan, Hamada was not teaching in Kansai Uni's rink yet. So her team had to travel around Kansai area to get ice time. The rinks she used were crowded like other ordinal rinks in Japan. Skaters skate both in reserved time for their group as well as in public time to get enough ice time and also it's cheeper.) In Japan most of the rinks if not all have rules to skate counter-clockwise. Coaches usually teach kids in groups so that they can learn basic skating skills together for some reasons (safety, financial reason, space efficiency etc). So I can't blame Hamada for making Miyahara skate counter-clockwise in Japan. It's also safer to rotate counter-clockwise on jumps in a crowded rink but I don't know rinks have rules to make skaters rotate counter-clockwise, though.

Later Hamada added her explanation about the reason why she made Miyahara rotate counter-clockwise on jumps when she got sorta backlash at the time. She said Miyahara's jumps were awful saying the axis on Miyahara's every different jump was leaning. It made her assume that fixing Miyahara's every different jump one by one would take a long time. And she made Miyahara rotate counter-clockwise and teach every different jump from scratch all at once. On this point people can discuss whether it was the best way for Miyahara for reaching the highest level in her whole career or she should have stuck on her natural direction and fix her jumps one by one in a long period. However, since we don't know whether Miyahara was given a chance to say yes or no about changing her rotating directions, the discussion can run around in circles and we'll not get the conclusion (on the human-rights wise). Also we'll never know whether she got better results if she fixed her every jump with leaning axis one by one in a long term (on the results wise).

Talking about Japanese skaters who naturally jump clockwise in general is another story. Please continue your discussion. I just wanted to add a bit more info about the environment when Miyahra started learning under Hamada.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information