Natalia Mishkutenok & Artur Dmitriev

Can we please get back to M&D? I am also guilty of veering off the topic.

Tonight I will look for some more links to M&D's performances.
 
Sorry @Vash01 but I wanted to bring down the tone of this thread to my trashy gossipy level for a second :skandal

I bet Petrov was disappointed when Katia turned him down... Katia was not only considered to be the best pairs lady ever but is still probably regarded as the most beautiful woman of skating with a saintly image (unlike Witt). Pretty much all the straight men of the skating world were after her. Weren't Bowman and Browning coming on to her quite strongly even during Sergei's lifetime? I seem to recall reading about it in the Russian media. And if you believe Pasha Grishuk she was seeing Zhulin ( :eek: hopefully that's a lie).

Artur, Sergei and Katia were very good friends, which is why her parents asked Artur to skate with her I believe. But he said he would never skate with Sergei's wife out of respect for Sergei. I think they would have been an incredible pair though and certainly a far cry from K&D!

I guess the reason why Katia did not skate with another partner was also because G&G were so iconic and almost a "brand" (for want of a better word). The public would never have felt the same about her and another partner.

On a side note and I guess it's a well known fact that Kulik used to date Platov's ex-wife and she even moved to the US for him (something she didn't do for Platov).

And to get back to M&D but still stick with trashy gossip... I have read rumours that Natalia had an abortion before the 1992 Olympics which contributed to her depression afterwards. But if true who was the father? :sekret:
 
If the gossip about Natalia's abortion is true (I've never heard of this rumour), perhaps Urmanov? Weren't they dating at that time?
 
gk_891 said:
If the gossip about Natalia's abortion is true (I've never heard of this rumour), perhaps Urmanov? Weren't they dating at that time?
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You are right about Urmanov and Natalia. (She had good taste!) I have only read rumours in different blogs by people who claim to be in the know, but I have no idea if it's true. I will try to find a better source, but the comments section to this article mentions it as well http://www.figureskatingmystery.com/2007/05/where-are-they-now-arthur-dmitriev.html
 
gk_891 said:
Were you there? If so, what program did they skate?
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I was NOT there: I was watching television and I believe there were with Champions on Ice but I may be wrong. I want to say the skated the Rach but I may be wrong. I was just so happy that people acknowledged their greatness with the standing O before they skated.
 
WanderlustTO said:
I always loved M&D - their 1992 LP program was my favourite - and one of the greatest programs in pairs' history.

As far as 1994 goes, I don't agree they were the 'obvious winners' - G&G, although not perfect, were still, in my mind, the rightful gold medalists.

Despite Dmitriev's success with Kazakova, I always found them utterly forgettable.
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My thoughts exactly on all points.
 
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Vash01 said:
1992 Skate America exhibition (skating to 'Somewhere in my heart' by Frank Sinatra)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nDE2TWcv_4

Same exhibition with different costumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZQC34u4AfQ

'Nostalgia' exhibition (1994 Skates of gold)- this is much softer than their usual style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhz3b_tA9ps

1991 worlds exhibition (after they won their first world championship)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YLBOJ3j-Sc
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Simply incredible! They were an absolutely perfect match. Why did Natalia have to retire?!?!?!?! And why didn't Artur like her?!?!?!?! :wuzrobbed

I bet nowadays Natalia wouldn't give him the time of day if he begged her, but back then he was so dashing!
 
Xela M said:
G&G had the backing of the Russian Federation and were the pre-determined winners in everyone's eyes before they even skated. They were also perfect in all their practices at Lillehammer whereas M&D were terrible in practice. No one expected M&D to skate like they did when it mattered and G&G to show nerves in both their programmes. The commentators annoyed me so much when they played down G&G's "minor"mistakes and called their performances "perfection" when they were NOT perfect. It also annoyed me that M&D were not even CLOSE to winning which was so clearly unfair.

The 1994 pairs event was just insane quality though with everyone skating great. To me M&D were the obvious winners, although I don't know how the event would be judged under COP. I could watch their Rachmaninov over and over and over again and never get tired of it. They were also the crowd's favourites that night and I think Katia mentioned in her book how upset she was when M&D got a better reaction from the crowd than them and that Sergei wanted to return in 1998 because he was unhappy with the way he had skated that night.

M&D's (and Moskvina's) reaction to their loss was so graceful that it should be studied by all skaters (especially Canadians :cold: ) as a lesson on good sportsmanship. No hysterical tears on the podium, no "we wuz robbed" interviews, no blaming the judges or conspiracy theories. They said "the best pair won" and Moskvina gave her infamous "some people like the priest, some people like the priest's wife and some people like the priest's daughter" explanation even though she was probably secretly fuming as G&G beat another of her pairs.
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Hilarious quote from Moskvina.
 
Xela M said:
Simply incredible! They were an absolutely perfect match. Why did Natalia have to retire?!?!?!?! And why didn't Artur like her?!?!?!?! :wuzrobbed

I bet nowadays Natalia wouldn't give him the time of day if he begged her, but back then he was so dashing!
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But do we know for sure if she had 'liked' him in that way at the time? Or was that speculation?
 
COP would not suit M&D that well at all. Their skating was always far more about the overall effect more than the sum of their parts. Those saying they would have won in 94 under COP are totally 100% wrong even with G&G not skating perfectly. Brasseur & Eisler or Shishkova & Naumov might have even beaten them under COP since a lot of their technical elements were stronger.

That said the 94 Olympics was under 6.0 and under 6.0 IMO M&D deserved to win over G&G that night, or atleast come way closer than they did.
 
gk_891 said:
But do we know for sure if she had 'liked' him in that way at the time? Or was that speculation?
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As far as I know neither Artur nor Natalia have ever spoken about it to the media, but the rumours about Natalia's unrequited love were pretty strong and all their fluff pieces as well as Moskvina's comments post 1992 pointed towards that. It would also have been weird for Artur and Tamara to hide his marriage and child from Natalia for fear that she would break down emotionally. And it was always said that she couldn't handle his marriage which is why she gained weight and lost her spark between 92-94 (until she suddenly came back with a vengeance at the Olympics!).

She had good taste though... both Artur and Urmanov were HOT.

angelflies said:
COP would not suit M&D that well at all. Their skating was always far more about the overall effect more than the sum of their parts. Those saying they would have won in 94 under COP are totally 100% wrong even with G&G not skating perfectly. Brasseur & Eisler or Shishkova & Naumov might have even beaten them under COP since a lot of their technical elements were stronger.

That said the 94 Olympics was under 6.0 and under 6.0 IMO M&D deserved to win over G&G that night, or atleast come way closer than they did.
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That's what annoyed me the most, that it wasn't even close! Had M&D been a North American team we would never have heard the end of it to this day.
 
angelflies said:
COP would not suit M&D that well at all. Their skating was always far more about the overall effect more than the sum of their parts. Those saying they would have won in 94 under COP are totally 100% wrong even with G&G not skating perfectly. Brasseur & Eisler or Shishkova & Naumov might have even beaten them under COP since a lot of their technical elements were stronger.
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That's what I thought. They had very simple lifts (and did only 2), a very simple side by side spin, one death spiral (although it was very well done, his pivot was fantastic), probably the weakest split triple twist among the top 4 couples, and they were just kind of scratchy in their overall quality. Natalia may or may not have 2-footed her double axel and Artur had a trip in the straight line footwork sequence. Still, I love that program and think it's an artistic masterpiece.
 
I wish any of Dmitriev's skaters would skate programmes as exciting as M&D did. I know COP killed a lot of the fun, but aside from K&S this season and V&T's SP last season, all other Russian pairs programmes have been pretty dire.

I wonder if Dmitriev ever manges to win OGM as a coach as well.
 
gk_891 said:
That's what I thought. They had very simple lifts (and did only 2), a very simple side by side spin, one death spiral (although it was very well done, his pivot was fantastic), probably the weakest split triple twist among the top 4 couples, and they were just kind of scratchy in their overall quality. Natalia may or may not have 2-footed her double axel and Artur had a trip in the straight line footwork sequence. Still, I love that program and think it's an artistic masterpiece.
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It certainly was a masterpiece. The quality of M&D's individual pairs elements was never spectacular, which is surprising given Artur's strength, but the programmes were simply breathtaking. And Natalia could do amazing death spirals, they just didn't incorporate them into the Rachmaninov for whatever reason. She did not double foot the axel in 1994!
 
Xela M said:
It certainly was a masterpiece. The quality of M&D's individual pairs elements was never spectacular, which is surprising given Artur's strength, but the programmes were simply breathtaking. And Natalia could do amazing death spirals, they just didn't incorporate them into the Rachmaninov for whatever reason. She did not double foot the axel in 1994!
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But as a sport and more importantly as a sport called pairs skating, shouldn't the quality of the pairs elements be emphasized in the judging? That aspect would probably justify G&G's win over M&D in 1994.
 
gk_891 said:
But as a sport and more importantly as a sport called pairs skating, shouldn't the quality of the pairs elements be emphasized in the judging? That aspect would probably justify G&G's win over M&D in 1994.
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G&G had better lifts, better twist, harder death spiral and their skating was very textbook, but their jumps and throws were less difficult and Sergei made mistakes even on the simple jumps they did. And in the short they lost unison on the side by side spins, which was actually a big deal back then even if the commentators played it down as if it was nothing.

Having said that, it was only many years later that I realised what an amazing partner Sergei was. His feet when he was lifting Katia were so incredibly steady that it's probably the best lift technique I've seen. Their twist was also gorgeous.
 
Xela M said:
G&G had better lifts, better twist, harder death spiral and their skating was very textbook, but their jumps and throws were less difficult and Sergei made mistakes even on the simple jumps they did. And in the short they lost unison on the side by side spins, which was actually a big deal back then even if the commentators played it down as if it was nothing.

Having said that, it was only many years later that I realised what an amazing partner Sergei was. His feet when he was lifting Katia were so incredibly steady that it's probably the best lift technique I've seen. Their twist was also gorgeous.
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One of those mistakes was very minor though (slight bobble, it's not like he put his foot down). And yes, they lost unison on their spins in both the long and short program but they did more difficult SBS spins than M&D which the judges had to take into consideration. As for their throws, M&D's throws were smaller with a lot less flow but from both partners (it was pointed out from Scott Hamilton how Artur comes to a dead stop after he throws her whereas Sergei continues his flow).

As for the short program, I thought G&G double axels were better (more speed going in and out of the jumps), they had a far superior twist, a more difficult lift with superior feet from Sergei relative to Artur, and a more difficult death spiral.

That being said, I still prefer watching M&D when it comes to my own personal enjoyment but I do think G&G winning both the SP and LP was completely fair.
 
Xela M said:
That's what annoyed me the most, that it wasn't even close! Had M&D been a North American team we would never have heard the end of it to this day.
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Exactly. I think it was either a 7-2 or 8-1 decision in G&G's favor when it really should have been a 5-4 decisioin going either way. It was that close. It has bothered me for years.
 
gk_891 said:
But as a sport and more importantly as a sport called pairs skating, shouldn't the quality of the pairs elements be emphasized in the judging? That aspect would probably justify G&G's win over M&D in 1994.
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I disagree. If the singles elements are also a part of the program, there is no reason to pay attention to only the pairs elements. Katia's landing on the first throw (2A) was a little forward, if we are going to nitpick.M&D had two triple throws (3t and 3s) G&G had a 2A and a 3S. Katia's positions were always perfect , but simple. Natalia's flexibility created more difficulty in their lifts. It's really apples and oranges where those two pairs were concerned.
 
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angelflies said:
COP would not suit M&D that well at all. Their skating was always far more about the overall effect more than the sum of their parts. Those saying they would have won in 94 under COP are totally 100% wrong even with G&G not skating perfectly. Brasseur & Eisler or Shishkova & Naumov might have even beaten them under COP since a lot of their technical elements were stronger.

That said the 94 Olympics was under 6.0 and under 6.0 IMO M&D deserved to win over G&G that night, or atleast come way closer than they did.
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COP killed the overall effect of a program, and not just in pairs. However, it's more obvious in pairs than in other disciplines.
 
Vash01 said:
I disagree. If the singles elements are also a part of the program, there is no reason to pay attention to only the pairs elements. Katia's landing on the first throw (2A) was a little forward, if we are going to nitpick.M&D had two triple throws (3t and 3s) G&G had a 2A and a 3S. Katia's positions were always perfect , but smple. Natalia's flexibility created more difficulty in their lifts. It's really apples and oranges where those two pairs were concerned.
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Natalia's flexibility wasn't on display during the lifts. They had 2 very simple lifts (the 2nd one being made only moderately more interesting with the dismount) with very safe overhead positions and his footing was not particularly all that good. IIRC, G&G had 3-4 lifts, all more difficult than the 2 that M&D did and Grinkov's footing was far superior than Dmitriev's. M&D had more difficult throws but their throw technique (with both of their hands around her waist before launching her into the air) is considerably easier than the entry technique that G&G used. G&G's throws were also much bigger with a lot more speed and flow going in and going out. The judges had to take these aspects into consideration. Not to mention G&G had absolutely superb edging and effortless speed. M&D also had great speed but you can really hear them digging and scratching into the ice as they stroke to gain speed. The one clear technical edge that M&D had over G&G were their side by side triple toe loops. And to their credit, they made no significant errors (other than a trip by Artur during the straight line footwork sequence and Natalia's solo double axel looked questionable in terms of whether she 2-footed or not - if it's too close to tell though, she should get the benefit of the doubt). Other than that, I don't really think they did anything better technically. Artistically, it's apples and oranges between the two. To be fair, G&G had a much better clarity of movement and polish and more effortless grace. OTOH, M&D had a ton of raw passion and reckless abandon.
 
G&G made more mistakes in 1994 than B&S did in 2002 and B&S' programmes were significantly harder and the quality of their skating was way superior to S&P (although to give credit to S&P they had better lifts and twist). Anyway... S&P's programme was no Rachmaninov and G&G's programmes couldn't compare to the perfection that was B&S' Lady Caliph. Yet absolutely no one questioned G&G's win with their imperfect skate over perfect M&D and only ONE judge put M&D first whereas one or two judges put them THIRD. When you compare this and people's reaction to what happened in 2002, it's quite incredible. If only M&D had been Canadian...

As for M&D's pair elements, they were not bad at all and they performed them very clean, although they weren't GOE worthy. But their artistry, power, command of the ice, the incredible programme and the more difficult jumps should have given them the edge over flawed skates by G&G with GOE-worthy elements, but easier jumps and throws which were not performed cleanly.

Having said that, G&G's lift technique was amazing. Sergei was so secure and it was like he lifted a feather. Has he ever dropped Katia? It seemed like he could carry her around with one hand for the whole 4 minutes.
 
Xela M said:
G&G made more mistakes in 1994 than B&S did in 2002 and B&S' programmes were significantly harder and the quality of their skating was way superior to S&P (although to give credit to S&P they had better lifts and twist). Anyway... S&P's programme was no Rachmaninov and G&G's programmes couldn't compare to the perfection that was B&S' Lady Caliph. Yet absolutely no one questioned G&G's win with their imperfect skate over perfect M&D and only ONE judge put M&D first whereas one or two judges put them THIRD. When you compare this and people's reaction to what happened in 2002, it's quite incredible. If only M&D had been Canadian...

As for M&D's pair elements, they were not bad at all and they performed them very clean, although they weren't GOE worthy. But their artistry, power, command of the ice, the incredible programme and the more difficult jumps should have given them the edge over flawed skates by G&G with GOE-worthy elements, but easier jumps and throws which were not performed cleanly.

Having said that, G&G's lift technique was amazing. Sergei was so secure and it was like he lifted a feather. Has he ever dropped Katia? It seemed like he could carry her around with one hand for the whole 4 minutes.
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Yes, Sergei dropped Katia when she was about 15 or 16. She had a concussion and she was in a hospital. Sergei visited her in the hospital. It's in her book 'My Sergei'

As pros, Katia cut Sergei's head during a lift and he had to get a couple of stitches. I think it was the Landover competition and they had skated to the Nutcracker
 
Xela M said:
G&G made more mistakes in 1994 than B&S did in 2002 and B&S' programmes were significantly harder and the quality of their skating was way superior to S&P (although to give credit to S&P they had better lifts and twist). Anyway... S&P's programme was no Rachmaninov and G&G's programmes couldn't compare to the perfection that was B&S' Lady Caliph. Yet absolutely no one questioned G&G's win with their imperfect skate over perfect M&D and only ONE judge put M&D first whereas one or two judges put them THIRD. When you compare this and people's reaction to what happened in 2002, it's quite incredible. If only M&D had been Canadian...

As for M&D's pair elements, they were not bad at all and they performed them very clean, although they weren't GOE worthy. But their artistry, power, command of the ice, the incredible programme and the more difficult jumps should have given them the edge over flawed skates by G&G with GOE-worthy elements, but easier jumps and throws which were not performed cleanly.

Having said that, G&G's lift technique was amazing. Sergei was so secure and it was like he lifted a feather. Has he ever dropped Katia? It seemed like he could carry her around with one hand for the whole 4 minutes.
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G&G's throws might've been easier on paper but when you consider how much smaller M&D's throws were and the lack of speed and flow going in and out as well as the entry technique (where the hands are placed prior to launching the woman in the air), the difference in difficulty is kind of negligible.

I do think that M&D's artistic marks were too low though. I guess the judges just didn't go for their dark and brooding program.
 
Xela M said:
When you compare this and people's reaction to what happened in 2002, it's quite incredible. If only M&D had been Canadian...
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Yes, if only. Given that Canada is the only country in the world in which judging misconduct ever occurs and/or the only country in the world in which judging misconduct will ever be exposed.

Russia just can't politic effectively on behalf of its pairs (even after half a century of experience). :)
 
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