Missing Men at the Olympics since 1984

[olympic]

I posted years ago on missing ladies (now Women), so thought some speculating on MEN would be fun while waiting for Worlds ...

1984 - Brian Pockar, David Santee, Robert Wagenhoffer, Igor Bobrin

Brian Pockar used to trade CAN titles with Orser in the early 80s and he was 1982 Worlds Bronze medalist. He could have been a contender at Sarajevo, but obviously wasn't. What happened to him?

David Santee was pretty uninspired by 1982 and didn't think he had much left by then, but Robert Wagenhoffer went from 10th in 1981 to 6th at 1982 Worlds. He seems like a candidate for a 3rd spot for the US team going to Sarajevo behind Scott and Brian Boitano

Igor Bobrin was 1981 World Bronze Medalist, and had a decent finish at 1982 Worlds, then even finished 2nd at the USSR Championships in 1983, I think behind Fadeyev. He did a move called the 'Bobrin Roll'.

1988 - Jozef Sabovcik

So, I watched TSL and it was pretty clear he tried to make it to Calgary but was too injured. Strictly conjecture, but if he was healthy, would he have been a rival to take Bronze from Viktor Petrenko?

1992 - Mark Mitchell, Aleksandr Fadeyev

This has cropped up in other threads, but would Mark have fared better than an injured Eldredge on a normal day. I think Eldredge was 10th in Albertville.

Aleksandr was 4th (?) at 1989 Worlds but I suppose he retired after that. I think between Zagorodniuk and Urmanov, he would not have made the team anyway.

1994 - Mark Mitchell (again), Viacheslav Zagorodniuk

Scott Davis was 8th in Lillehamer, so while Mark wasn't always consistent, could he have beaten that? He was 4th at 1993 Worlds where he beat Scott.

Viacheslav was 1994 Worlds Bronze Medalist, but wasn't at Lillehamer. Did UKR only have 1 spot?

1998 - Rudy Gallindo, Andres Vlacsenko

Everyone know his story. 1996 Natl. Champ and World Bronze Medalist. Would he have had what it takes to go to Nagano and could he have beaten Michael Weiss for the spot on the US team?

Worth noting is Vlacsenko for GER. He was in the top 10 at the 1996 and 1997 World Championships, so interesting that he wasn't in Nagano.

2002 - I don't recall any notable men missing from SLC, although Emanuel Sandhu was starting to compete, was top 10 at 2001 Worlds, and had to WD (I think). He obviously was a huge talent but was also a huge mess on the ice. Maybe, without any pressure, he would have delivered a competent performance (?)

2006 - Timothy Goebel

It was clear he wasn't himself after being fired by FC, so perhaps the question is moot. I think he struggled to be in the top 10 by 2005.

2010 - Jeffrey Buttle

This is kind of a big deal. He was 2008 World Champion and IMO, really would've shaken up the podium. Why did he retire after 2008?

2014 - Evgeni Plushenko, Maxim Kovtun, Max Aaron

Plushenko WD due to injury, but could he still have been on the podium, not necessarily competing against Patrick Chan or Yuzu, but IIRC, the Bronze was wide open to like 7 different men, so could he have achieved another podium finish. I would throw Kovtun in there, who was 4th at 2014 Worlds

Max was top 10 at 2013 and 2014 Worlds, and when you consider Jeremy had messy performances, could he have been in the mix?

2018 - Jason Brown

It would have been either him or Adam Rippon, and Adam was really on his game, so I don't know if Jason would have improved on his position, but he was 7th at 2017 Worlds, so high finishes were definitely possible.

2022 - Vincent Zhou, Mikhail Kolyada, Han Yan

ETA - Both Vincent and Mikhail were barred from competing due to YKW. Vincent was incredible at 2021 SA, then got back on the Worlds podium at 2022 Worlds. Where would he have fit in? I know that Misha was not really focused this year, so I don't think he would've been a medal threat, although a high finish was certainly plausible and he was missed.

I believe CHN only had 1 spot which went to Boyang Jin, but could he have performed better than his countryman?

What say you? Did I miss anyone?

 

[Ananas Astra]

There were so many talented Russian single skaters between 2004 and now who never made it to the Olympics.

2006: Griazev
He was Junior World Champion in 2004 and was at Euros and Worlds in 2005, only to completely **** up Russian Nats in 2006 and never to make the Olympics.

2010: Lutai
He made sure Russia had 2 spots at 2010 Olympics, but then he realized he liked Long Island Ice Teas and American cars...

2014: Gachinski
After winning bronze at 2011 Worlds and silver at 2012 Euros, he was absolutely capable of becoming the next big thing. We all know how that ended.

2018: Kovtun
Won the Russian Nationals several times, always made the team, won medals at the Euros, only to never make it to 2018 Olympics.

2022: Kolyada
Although he already made the Olympics in 2018, I will never recover from him getting the 'rona just before Beijing 2022...I soooo wanted to see his "Nureyev" on Olympic ice...

 

[Kasey]

Isn’t ‘92 and ‘94 supposed to be Mark Mitchell?

 

[olympic]

Isn’t ‘92 and ‘94 supposed to be Mark Mitchell?

Fixed (along with other things) My bad.

 

[tony]

Vlascenko wasn't in Nagano because of a prior DUI charge.

Fadeev tried to compete through the end of 1989. IIRC he was at NHK and that might have been his last amateur performance.

Ukraine had only one spot because Dmitrenko was sent to 1993 Worlds after winning Europeans, and only finished 12th. When Petrenko announced his comeback, it was pretty much a given the spot was his and the handful of other strong recently broken up USSR men would sit home.

Buttle probably retired because he achieved all he was likely to achieve, including the surprise 2008 gold, and I think there were rumors back then that SC had pushed for Chan to be the next one (and he was, getting onto the podium in 2009 and probably should have won gold), so it made his retirement more obvious.

I still remember being infuriated by Han Yan's jumping passes at 2021 Worlds. I forget what it was exactly, maybe not doing a second 3A which was usually a beauty for him or not doing enough combinations, but he finished just outside the threshold to get 2 spots to 2022, and we all knew it was going to be Boyang.

 

[olympic]

There were so many talented Russian single skaters between 2004 and now who never made it to the Olympics.

2006: Griazev
He was Junior World Champion in 2004 and was at Euros and Worlds in 2005, only to completely **** up Russian Nats in 2006 and never to make the Olympics.

2010: Lutai
He made sure Russia had 2 spots at 2010 Olympics, but then he realized he liked Long Island Ice Teas and American cars...

2014: Gachinski
After winning bronze at 2011 Worlds and silver at 2012 Euros, he was absolutely capable of becoming the next big thing. We all know how that ended.

2018: Kovtun
Won the Russian Nationals several times, always made the team, won medals at the Euros, only to never make it to 2018 Olympics.

2022: Kolyada
Although he already made the Olympics in 2018, I will never recover from him getting the 'rona just before Beijing 2022...I soooo wanted to see his "Nureyev" on Olympic ice...

Yeah. I fixed my initial post to add Kolyada. I don't know how good Kovtun would have been in 2018. It seems the RUS Fed was already moving onto Kolyada and Aliev, and I don't think Kovtun was capable of beating them at that point. Kovtun and Plushenko were probably better than Gachinski in 2014, though, right?

 

[olympic]

Vlascenko wasn't in Nagano because of a prior DUI charge.

Fadeev tried to compete through the end of 1989. IIRC he was at NHK and that might have been his last amateur performance.

Ukraine had only one spot because Dmitrenko was sent to 1993 Worlds after winning Europeans, and only finished 12th. When Petrenko announced his comeback, it was pretty much a given the spot was his and the handful of other strong recently broken up USSR men would sit home.

Buttle probably retired because he achieved all he was likely to achieve, including the surprise 2008 gold, and I think there were rumors back then that SC had pushed for Chan to be the next one (and he was, getting onto the podium in 2009 and probably should have won gold), so it made his retirement more obvious.

I still remember being infuriated by Han Yan's jumping passes at 2021 Worlds. I forget what it was exactly, maybe not doing a second 3A which was usually a beauty for him or not doing enough combinations, but he finished just outside the threshold to get 2 spots to 2022, and we all knew it was going to be Boyang.

Thanks for the clarification on Vlacsenko and Buttle. Is it likely that Buttle would've sunk a bit in the standings? We will have to agree to disagree on Chan in 2009

I figured that was the case for UKR in 1994. Sadly, Zagorodniuk was really missed considering he medalled at 1994 Worlds

 

[Ananas Astra]

Yeah. I fixed my initial post to add Kolyada. I don't know how good Kovtun would have been in 2018. It seems the RUS Fed was already moving onto Kolyada and Aliev, and I don't think Kovtun was capable of beating them at that point. Kovtun and Plushenko were probably better than Gachinski in 2014, though, right?

Kovtun won the Russian Nationals in 2018/19, so had he skated better one year earlier he could've made the Olympics in 2018 after being snubbed in 2014, but alas...

 

[caseyedwards]

Vlascenko wasn't in Nagano because of a prior DUI charge.

Fadeev tried to compete through the end of 1989. IIRC he was at NHK and that might have been his last amateur performance.

Ukraine had only one spot because Dmitrenko was sent to 1993 Worlds after winning Europeans, and only finished 12th. When Petrenko announced his comeback, it was pretty much a given the spot was his and the handful of other strong recently broken up USSR men would sit home.

Buttle probably retired because he achieved all he was likely to achieve, including the surprise 2008 gold, and I think there were rumors back then that SC had pushed for Chan to be the next one (and he was, getting onto the podium in 2009 and probably should have won gold), so it made his retirement more obvious.

I still remember being infuriated by Han Yan's jumping passes at 2021 Worlds. I forget what it was exactly, maybe not doing a second 3A which was usually a beauty for him or not doing enough combinations, but he finished just outside the threshold to get 2 spots to 2022, and we all knew it was going to be Boyang.

It’s so sad about buttle in a way! Almost His exact same program won at Olympics 2010. Such a similar layout to what won! You are right he did have to deal with Chan. But the rise of Chan was empowered by his retirement! If he didn’t retire and stayed in that no quad ever zone he could have really slayed in Vancouver! Now he would have had to remain healthy and be clean as well but you see below how his program was the model for winning gold after quads were devalued in 2007

World 2008 gold
1. 3A+2T+2Lo
2 3F+3T
3 CUSp4
4 3A
5 FSSp4
6 CiSt3
Half
7 3Lz+2T
8 3Lo
9 3S
10 SlSt3
11 2A
12 3Lz
13 CoSp4
14 CCoSp4


World 2009 and Olympics 2010 gold
Elements
1 3Lz+3T
2 3A
3 3S
4 CiSt4
5 FSSp4
Half
6 3A+2T
7 3Lo
8 3F+2T+2Lo
9 3Lz
10 2A
11 FCSSp4
12 SlSt3
13 CCoSp4

 

[caseyedwards]

Thanks for the clarification on Vlacsenko and Buttle. Is it likely that Buttle would've sunk a bit in the standings? We will have to agree to disagree on Chan in 2009

I figured that was the case for UKR in 1994. Sadly, Zagorodniuk was really missed considering he medalled at 1994 Worlds

His program was the model for high scoring success! Doubtful If he was clean he would gone down. Unlike Oda or weir or Chan he was world champion so I bet his goe and would pcs would have been great!

 

[misskarne]

Yeah. I fixed my initial post to add Kolyada. I don't know how good Kovtun would have been in 2018. It seems the RUS Fed was already moving onto Kolyada and Aliev, and I don't think Kovtun was capable of beating them at that point. Kovtun and Plushenko were probably better than Gachinski in 2014, though, right?

By 2014 Gachinski had already been beaten up by the RuFed mercilessly for his "failure" at 2012 Worlds, though he actually skated half-decently at Nationals that year, he was politically well out of the picture.

 

[overedge]

Pockar retired after 1982. I think he may have been injured, or that he felt that Skate Canada was going to push Brian Orser instead of him.

 

[olympic]

Pockar retired after 1982. I think he may have been injured, or that he felt that Skate Canada was going to push Brian Orser instead of him.

Thanks. He was a big question mark in my mind. I remember they were evenly matched for a while

 

[caseyedwards]

By 2014 Gachinski had already been beaten up by the RuFed mercilessly for his "failure" at 2012 Worlds, though he actually skated half-decently at Nationals that year, he was politically well out of the picture.

He also never did well in a gp for some reason

 

[TheresMaude]

It was clear [Timothy Goeble] wasn't himself after being fired by FC

What is this referring to? (My fandom has gone on and off over the decades, forgive me.)

 

[tony]

What is this referring to? (My fandom has gone on and off over the decades, forgive me.)

Frank Carroll

 

[olympic]

It’s so sad about buttle in a way! Almost His exact same program won at Olympics 2010. Such a similar layout to what won! You are right he did have to deal with Chan. But the rise of Chan was empowered by his retirement! If he didn’t retire and stayed in that no quad ever zone he could have really slayed in Vancouver! Now he would have had to remain healthy and be clean as well but you see below how his program was the model for winning gold after quads were devalued in 2007

World 2008 gold
1. 3A+2T+2Lo
2 3F+3T
3 CUSp4
4 3A
5 FSSp4
6 CiSt3
Half
7 3Lz+2T
8 3Lo
9 3S
10 SlSt3
11 2A
12 3Lz
13 CoSp4
14 CCoSp4


World 2009 and Olympics 2010 gold
Elements
1 3Lz+3T
2 3A
3 3S
4 CiSt4
5 FSSp4
Half
6 3A+2T
7 3Lo
8 3F+2T+2Lo
9 3Lz
10 2A
11 FCSSp4
12 SlSt3
13 CCoSp4

Aren’t you simply trying to dethrone your nemesis, Evan Lysacek?

 

[barbk]

1988 Sabovcik (amazing jumps) vs. Petrenko (classical style) would have been an interesting matchup. I suspect the judges would have gone for Petrenko, who very much fit the classic style and lines that were valued.

 

[Dobre]

This has cropped up in other threads, but would Mark have fared better than an injured Eldredge on a normal day.

I didn't think so at the time. I can't say that I've ever rewatched Mitchell's performance from that nationals. It seemed slim on content to me at the time.

It has been a long, long time since I watched the Albertville men's event. Eldredge blew an easier jump, didn't he? Or am I thinking of the wrong Olympic SP? It seemed like Olympic pressure + a post oh-my-gosh-I-landed-the-hard-jump-and-should-have-remained-focused kind of mistake rather than one related to an injury. I never saw any reason to think that an athlete with less experience would have been less likely to make the same type of error.

But I could be remembering the whole event wrong. It's been so long!

 

[caseyedwards]

Aren’t you simply trying to dethrone your nemesis, Evan Lysacek?

Well the plan/strategy/layout he used was seemingly totally copied from Buttle in 2008 so why couldn’t buttle have refined it and perfected it to Vancouver in 2010.

It was such a rock solid plan. When Tomas Verner was injured after Vancouver and was told to not do quads for months he adopted the buttle program too! And he won cup of Russia beating Patrick Chan!

1 3Lz+3T
2 3A
3 3Lo
4 CiSt3
5 FCoSp3
Halfway
6 3A+2T
7 3Lz
8 3S
9 2A
10 3F+2T+2Lo
11 CSSp2
12 ChSt1
13 CCoSp4


Nikolai Morosov also eliminated all quads from Odas programs and adopted the Buttle Plan for 2010. And until takahashi rose Oda was doing really well with it

So you can see how quads could have been eliminated from mens skating after Vancouver if rules hadn’t changed- and then the PR would have been “oh the skater really wants to do them but there’s an old fracture, there’s a spur, there’s an ache!”

 

[olympic]

1988 Sabovcik (amazing jumps) vs. Petrenko (classical style) would have been an interesting matchup. I suspect the judges would have gone for Petrenko, who very much fit the classic style and lines that were valued.

Thanks. That makes sense. ETA - I also assume USSR politik would probably have taken care of Petrenko if it was close v. Sabovcik for that medal after Fadeyev failed

 

[olympic]

I didn't think so at the time. I can't say that I've ever rewatched Mitchell's performance from that nationals. It seemed slim on content to me at the time.

It has been a long, long time since I watched the Albertville men's event. Eldredge blew an easier jump, didn't he? Or am I thinking of the wrong Olympic SP? It seemed like Olympic pressure + a post oh-my-gosh-I-landed-the-hard-jump-and-should-have-remained-focused kind of mistake rather than one related to an injury. I never saw any reason to think that an athlete with less experience would have been less likely to make the same type of error.

But I could be remembering the whole event wrong. It's been so long!

Todd had a back injury (?) at Albertville and had to petition for the team, while Mark was healthy (?). There is actually a wuz robbed thread for Mark Mitchell and I think the point of many posters was Mark was healthy, capable but excluded. So, I added him to this thread

 

[miffy]

From what I remember of that time Buttle was inconsistent with his jumps. Yes his PCS was always going to be great but with that range of jumps he needed to be clean or hope for major mistakes really. (Like Jason Brown, although he seems more consistent now)
I’m not confident Jeff would have gone clean in 2010 although it would have been great if he had. I enjoyed the Plush not winning drama but also felt Lysacek’s performance lacked something.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Granted, the differences were very small, but in winning the SP in Stockholm Buttle was.6th in PCS, and Brian Joubert had higher PCS than Buttle, despite earning ~10 points less in TES in the FS, and PCS are so (too) often tied to big jumps. Chan underperformed considerably at his first Worlds and following his stellar National Championships performance, but between Skate Canada's embrace of Chan,, and the message that the judges would have preferred any of a handful of others, if they'd only skated clean-ish, made Buttle's a rational decision at the time.

Lysacek was amazing in person in Vancouver. Live, I don't think it was missing anything.

 

[caseyedwards]

Granted, the differences were very small, but in winning the SP in Stockholm Buttle was.6th in PCS, and Brian Joubert had higher PCS than Buttle, despite earning ~10 points less in TES in the FS, and PCS are so (too) often tied to big jumps. Chan underperformed considerably at his first Worlds and following his stellar National Championships performance, but between Skate Canada's embrace of Chan,, and the message that the judges would have preferred any of a handful of others, if they'd only skated clean-ish, made Buttle's a rational decision at the time.

Lysacek was amazing in person in Vancouver. Live, I don't think it was missing anything.

When he spoke of continuing after his world title what he said was basically “I know I deserved the win in Sweden but if I want to win in Vancouver I know I need quads.” He was totally wrong there. And if he just looked at the numbers he got he would have continued. IJS doesn’t care about quads only numbers. That’s ultimately what Carroll realized and why he sent out the world champion quadless in Vancouver. Because the system didn’t care. Buttle didn’t realize what he had in the end! Joubert - some in media- attacking his program also made him defensive.

It’s true. Lots of people in skating or watching don’t really care about the existence of quads or jump progress or any standard other than clean.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Lysacek was amazing in person in Vancouver. Live, I don't think it was missing anything.

I agree I was not the biggest fan of him despite actually personally meeting him on my street in West Hollywood where he was drying off his range Rover nine months before those games. But I don’t think his performance in the free skate was lacking anything.

 

[olympic]

^He was foot-perfect in both programs which was the only way he was going to win. Plush made no significant errors but his performance was not memorable. The rest of the elite made big enough errors to throw it to EL

 

[caseyedwards]

But it was a regressive program to be perfect at. Being quadless meant being gutless! Smart but horrible. It’s true you watch it and there’s nothing really wrong with it but it’s just worthless if you believe in standards and progress

 

[olympic]

Question - Did JPN have only 1 spot for men in 2006? Daisuke was in Torino, but Nobunari Oda went to 06 Worlds and finished 4th.

 

[caseyedwards]

Honda withdrew from 2005 worlds and takahashi had his worst skate ever so that meant one spot

Honda was on his way out! He had one foot out the door. But he won Japanese nationals fair and square!