Madonna - Is it the end?

[antmanb]

HOW did I miss this? When was it?

I remember it as the exhibition to 1997 worlds - she went on practically clean ice and I remember loving watching the marks she left on the ice as she skated through.

The only version of that performance I can find on youtube has a blathering commentator over part of it and then some other sport results coming in during the performance I have the BBC recording of this somewhere on VHS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQFizkQmAc&t=140s

ETA: See every thread, even one about Madonna, ends up being about Kwan

 

[Miezekatze]

I'm no Kwan fan, but even I remember the "Winter" program. It's a great song!

I really like Tori Amos, her old stuff was often absolutely brilliant IMO, but I'm still buying her newer albums too, even if I sort of feel mixed about them. They tend to feel a bit "Enya-ish", with a bit more of a pretentious tendency I tend to buy them and then listen to them like only 5 times, but they're still not that bad. Some of her old stuff ranks on my list of absolutely best music ever.

Live I also think she's lost some of her appeal, but not all (and she does not look all that "natural" anymore either ). I'm surprised that she performs lots of cover songs when she performs live, she also covered several of Madonnas songs, to get back to the original topic, for examlpe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNcvz_v-OxQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUf3gXUNze0

 

[antmanb]

Just to bring it back to the Madonna topic I don't think i'd appreciated until just now that the auto-tuned version of the Eurovision performance seems to originate from Madonna's own Vevo account.

Does she think we're all too stupid to remember what we heard with our own ears live?

 

[Jenny]

Does she think we're all too stupid to remember what we heard with our own ears live?

More like she's smart enough to control the version she wants on the public record, that people who didn't see it live will welcome because they are already used to her packaging everything she does.

Haters gonna hate hate hate (whee Taylor reference!) but the haters just make the fans that much more loyal I think.

Madonna makes me think of the old saying, "The only think worse than being talked about is not being talked about."

 

[Simone411]

I remember it as the exhibition to 1997 worlds - she went on practically clean ice and I remember loving watching the marks she left on the ice as she skated through.

The only version of that performance I can find on youtube has a blathering commentator over part of it and then some other sport results coming in during the performance I have the BBC recording of this somewhere on VHS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQFizkQmAc&t=140s

ETA: See every thread, even one about Madonna, ends up being about Kwan

I'm afraid you're right and Michelle also had a program where she used Madonna's music during Champions On Ice.

This Used to be My Playground.

Michelle's program was on YouTube several years ago, and I think I may have it on my external hard drive because I remember downloading it. I wish she would have performed the program during one of her competitions other than Champions on Ice. I believe it was a member here that shared it when I first joined FSU in 2007.

 

[antmanb]

More like she's smart enough to control the version she wants on the public record, that people who didn't see it live will welcome because they are already used to her packaging everything she does.

Sadly the Madonna stans are taking that version and claiming it to be the "real" version, and beating everyone who calls it out as fake over the head with it.

The irony that her fans are using her fake news in fan wars is not lost on me. We really are living in a post truth world

 

[Jenny]

Agree with you @antmanb, but for the sake of argument what is the "real" version? Much of art involvd a lot of layers. Actors might perform many takes that even there are edited to make the dialogue more punchy. "Reality" shows will often find a different cut of a reaction because it suits the dialogue better. Photographs are filtered, even reversed at times if it works better in a layout. In studio performances are mixed with other elements, perhaps even the same voice doubled or trebled, whole orchestras added when they weren't there in the first place, etc.

And here's one for you - years ago I had some friends involved in SOI. We all know about the retakes after shows that are being filmed, but did you also know that they can easily speed up or slow down the music so that the skaters look like they landed spot on the beat when they didn't? Take out a few rotations on a spin so that the number fits within commercial breaks? Show a close up of a landing from another jump so that the two-foot is disguised?

So yeah, Madonna might have sucked live, but does that make the packaged version any less relevant? She had a right to put out her own version of anything. Sure it might be to cover mistakes, but what if it was simply to make it more entertaining and enjoyable?

 

[Vagabond]

So yeah, Madonna might have sucked live, but does that make the packaged version any less relevant? She had a right to put out her own version of anything. Sure it might be to cover mistakes, but what if it was simply to make it more entertaining and enjoyable?

Madonna is, first and foremost, an entertainer. But she risks being entertaining in quite a different way from the one she intends.

 

[genevieve]

I think that argument might work if the point of the live performance was to result in a recorded version to be sold at a later time (like with SOI retakes for broadcast, or a live video). If the broadcast itself was live, then she should live with whatever she actually put out there (or should have gone with pre-recorded tracks if it was that important to her). Editing the record of what a ton of people already saw just makes her look foolish.

 

[antmanb]

Agree with you @antmanb, but for the sake of argument what is the "real" version?

Well when the argument goes - Madonna sang like a prayer really out of tune at Eurovision, and the response is no it wasn't here is the autotuned version to prove she sang in tune i'm left utterly baffled. Given how many gay fans she has who are rolling this out, and also trying to call out Trump for his alternative facts i'm literally left dumb struck, and kind of scared, but also angry. But hypocrisy is definitely one of my twitchy eye triggers so that it is likely just me.

Much of art involvd a lot of layers. Actors might perform many takes that even there are edited to make the dialogue more punchy. "Reality" shows will often find a different cut of a reaction because it suits the dialogue better. Photographs are filtered, even reversed at times if it works better in a layout. In studio performances are mixed with other elements, perhaps even the same voice doubled or trebled, whole orchestras added when they weren't there in the first place, etc.

And here's one for you - years ago I had some friends involved in SOI. We all know about the retakes after shows that are being filmed, but did you also know that they can easily speed up or slow down the music so that the skaters look like they landed spot on the beat when they didn't? Take out a few rotations on a spin so that the number fits within commercial breaks? Show a close up of a landing from another jump so that the two-foot is disguised?

So yeah, Madonna might have sucked live, but does that make the packaged version any less relevant? She had a right to put out her own version of anything. Sure it might be to cover mistakes, but what if it was simply to make it more entertaining and enjoyable?

I have no issue with Madonna putting out whatever she wants. I really enjoy watching and own nearly every single DVD and VHS of every one of her concerts which has the vocals corrected on every single one - and that is totally fine and makes the whole thing more enjoyable.

What I take issue with is fans trying to re-write history of a live event and claim the performance was flawless or note perfect - it wasn't that is a simple fact.

 

[VGThuy]

I remember it as the exhibition to 1997 worlds - she went on practically clean ice and I remember loving watching the marks she left on the ice as she skated through.

The only version of that performance I can find on youtube has a blathering commentator over part of it and then some other sport results coming in during the performance I have the BBC recording of this somewhere on VHS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQFizkQmAc&t=140s

ETA: See every thread, even one about Madonna, ends up being about Kwan

That’s my fave Kwan exhibition. That’s like her at her finest. Doing some really difficult jumps in an exhibition and some demanding choreography with such clean execution of said choreography. Michelle Kwan also self-choreographed that number.

Back to Madonna’s fans in YouTube, honestly it’s clear someone that famous will have tons of unhinged fans. I wouldn’t worry too much as the problem seems uncontrollable. I’m surprised you can read the comments considering like every fifth or so comment on every Madonna video is some fan from Europe or Latin America who clearly speaks English as a second or third language copies and pastes her world records. Another common post is someone calling Mariah Carey or Lady Gaga something defamatory. Then there’s every third post calling Madonna ugly, old, gross, a queen whose reign has ended, telling her make way for so and so, etc.

 

[Prancer]

when she parodied Christina, for example, she really went for it and let go and sounded powerful.

Yep, that was when I thought there was something there.

Mylie covered one of Ariana's tracks on Radio 1 here in the UK and a bunch of the reactions to her performance were "oh is that what the lyrics are, I've never understood them before".

I'm old and often long for the days when Berry Gordy ran Motown and insisted that all the lyrics in the songs had to be clear, so people could sing along.

Two examples why I don't think much about her talent: The first time I ever heard of her was in the song Bang Bang. Jessie J & Nicki Minaj sounded fantastic (to me). Ariana's part sounded weak compared to them.

Nicki Minaj raps all the time for a reason .

Well when the argument goes - Madonna sang like a prayer really out of tune at Eurovision, and the response is no it wasn't here is the autotuned version to prove she sang in tune i'm left utterly baffled. Given how many gay fans she has who are rolling this out, and also trying to call out Trump for his alternative facts i'm literally left dumb struck, and kind of scared, but also angry. But hypocrisy is definitely one of my twitchy eye triggers so that it is likely just me.

Is it really so terrible that she had a bad performance? People do.

 

[Josh78]

People go to Eurovision to enjoy the music and the spectacle of it all -- I highly doubt that many fans were disappointed on the whole, just being able to see her perform (and I know for a fact, her "Like A Prayer" was live, the new song was on playback) -- she's still an icon and an advocate and an amazing artist (whether her artistic sensibilities now are a really as envelope-pushing as they once were is a matter for debate) -- it does just make me wonder what the organizing committee could have done extra with the $1 million US she demanded to appear....

 

[Miezekatze]

it does just make me wonder what the organizing committee could have done extra with the $1 million US she demanded to appear....

Well to be honest the whole event looks as if the organizers already have way too much money to spend on it nowadays

I sort of lost interest in the whole contest when all the performances seemed to start being about stage technique...all those LED displays, LEDs on the back, LEDs on the floor, LEDs with 3D effect...seems like a really annoying waste of money to me and it makes all the performance look the same.

I also don't like that they even have all those guest performers nowadays. Now I happen to want to see Madonna, but I still don't get why there have to be people like her or Justin Timberland in the first place and 3 or 4 ex-winners and whatever acts and interviews with all those guests who have nothing to do with the contest. I'm not sure what they used to do while people were voting in the past, but I don't remember this from earlier years, earlier years meaning up to 5 years ago so. But I suppose they just lengthen the time where people can phone in to make more money with telephone votes It's funny how they keep shorteing the time for reading the results, but still the event seems to get lengthier and lengthier with every year.

 

[allezfred]

To be fair there were no effects on like a prayer (more's the pity)

The vocals sounded really funny to me and not just that it was out of tune. Seems this vocal coach thinks there was some kind of autotune on the vocal too.

HOW did I miss this? When was it?

How can you not have known Kwan skated to Tori friggin Amos?

what is the "real" version?

The shite one she sang at Eurovision.

People go to Eurovision to enjoy the music and the spectacle of it all -- I highly doubt that many fans were disappointed on the whole, just being able to see her perform

The people that I know who went to Eurovision were pissed off that their time was wasted by a subpar Madonna performance.

 

[PRlady]

In ‘97 I wasn’t yet a totally plugged-in skating fan. And I don’t remember the Ex being on US TV but maybe I’m wrong.

I also changed jobs that March!

 

[allezfred]

In ‘97 I wasn’t yet a totally plugged-in skating fan. And I don’t remember the Ex being on US TV but maybe I’m wrong.

I also changed jobs that March!

Excuses!

Anyway, at least you have the good taste to be a Tori Amos fan so I suppose I have to give you a pass. I wish more people would skate to her music.

Maybe they could use her cover of "Like A Prayer".

 

[Aussie Willy]

I never knew Kwan skated to Tori Amos. But in Australia we just didn't have access to seeing as much skating as we do now.

 

[Sparks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQFizkQmAc

As I recall, Michelle choreographed it herself and dedicated it to the other Mr. Collins who died.

 

[MacMadame]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQFizkQmAc

As I recall, Michelle choreographed it herself and dedicated it to the other Mr. Collins who died.

Okay, that I remember. I didn't remember that it was Tori Amos.

 

[VGThuy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQFizkQmAc

As I recall, Michelle choreographed it herself and dedicated it to the other Mr. Collins who died.

Yep. Michelle Kwan recently posted a IG pic of her doing that program and stated she choreographed it herself in honor of Tom Collins' brother. The saddest part from a Kwan fan's POV was that the video linked of Kwan's 1997 Worlds exhibition to it had commentary stating that if Kwan could just skate like that, she'd win the OGM next year because it's "clear" from that skating that she was a cut above the rest of the competition. Of course, we know how that went, but when Kwan did skate like that, it's hard to think otherwise.

 

[taf2002]

I'm afraid you're right and Michelle also had a program where she used Madonna's music during Champions On Ice.

This Used to be My Playground.

Michelle's program was on YouTube several years ago, and I think I may have it on my external hard drive because I remember downloading it. I wish she would have performed the program during one of her competitions other than Champions on Ice. I believe it was a member here that shared it when I first joined FSU in 2007.

This Used to be My Playground is one of my favorite Madonna songs. As I recall they played it during the closing credits of A League Of Their Own. I think Madonna was a fine actress in that movie & she was a fantastic dancer in the jitterbug scene.

 

[BaileyCatts]

I thought Madonna was GREAT in A League of Their Own!!! I love that movie.

 

[Prancer]

The vocals sounded really funny to me and not just that it was out of tune. Seems this vocal coach thinks there was some kind of autotune on the vocal too.

I hadn't actually listened to her performance before, but . She sounds like ME singing "Like a Prayer"--flat, flat, flat, searching for note, flat, flat, searching for note, really weak held note, flat, flat.

As someone said earlier in this thread, she sounds really out of practice and unprepared.

ETA: I flinched at Georgina's shrieky intro, but once she settled down I quite liked her. And after watching a few more of her videos, I liked her even more, probably because she likes the same singers I like for the most part. She also makes me laugh. "I'm too British for shade," followed by a pained look . "Is that Rebecca Black? Aw, bless her, she really wants to be a singer." PML!

I also like Sam Johnson a lot.

 

[cocotaffy]

The vocals sounded really funny to me and not just that it was out of tune. Seems this vocal coach thinks there was some kind of autotune on the vocal too.

That vocal coach is great "that choreography is not helpful for a singer" I don't remember hearing so much autotune when I watched this live though. If it is some kind of cover-up, it makes it even worse tbh.

 

[VGThuy]

To me, that is consistent with a lot of post-production touch ups from the DVD versions of Madonna's latest concerts after her 2008 Sticky and Sweet tour. I don't know who is in charge of the audio editing and touch ups for her MDNA and Rebel Heart tour DVDs, but they're so much worse and robot-sounding than her other tour releases.

 

[antmanb]

Is it really so terrible that she had a bad performance? People do.

No it's not so terrible, I was disappointed but it's not the end of the world. My beef isn't with Madonna having a bad performance it's with people saying she didn't and using the autotuned version as their "proof". Having had a light bulb moment that it was like trying to argue against the Yunabots with the youtube proof of Mao Asada only being able to do double jumps I've stopped arguing on another board and my blood pressure has returned to normal

The vocals sounded really funny to me and not just that it was out of tune. Seems this vocal coach thinks there was some kind of autotune on the vocal too.

Watching that youtube video I totally agree - I didn't remember thinking there were any effects when I was watching it live though, perhaps because there were so many effects on Future

Someone else on a pop music board suggested that maybe they were trying to use some live software for autotune and that she wasn't on the right side of "just" out of tune so she was being pulled even further from the right note by the software - some of the wobbling on the long wrong notes might have been her trying to correct based on what she was hearing and making it worse. I had no idea there was even software that could autotune live but the guy discussing this is a sound tech and knows his stuff.

To me, that is consistent with a lot of post-production touch ups from the DVD versions of Madonna's latest concerts after her 2008 Sticky and Sweet tour. I don't know who is in charge of the audio editing and touch ups for her MDNA and Rebel Heart tour DVDs, but they're so much worse and robot-sounding than her other tour releases.

Have you seen the Blonde Ambition tour (I think the whole thing is up on youtube) it was only ever released on Laser Disc. Wherever they used versions of the songs close to the originals they just dub her studio album vocals over them, for Vogue its the entire studio produced track over the performance. Where they can't because the version of the song has never been performed in that way (Like A Virgin for example) its a the recording from a show and you can tell because at that time when she sang she had a much deeper voice and way of singing/supporting (which personally I really liked).

 

[Miezekatze]

No it's not so terrible, I was disappointed but it's not the end of the world. My beef isn't with Madonna having a bad performance it's with people saying she didn't and using the autotuned version as their "proof". Having had a light bulb moment that it was like trying to argue against the Yunabots with the youtube proof of Mao Asada only being able to do double jumps I've stopped arguing on another board and my blood pressure has returned to normal

Yeah, but that's just your normal lunatic ultra fan behavior, I think you'll always have those
Yesterday I looked into one of my Madonna Facebook groups and the fans were outraged that one of the journalists from SPIEGEL who wrote a very hateful article doesn't even have social media accounts to perform a shitstorm on, how dare he

SPIEGEL magazine published 2 positive Madonna lifetime achievement articles after the very hateful one though, so maybe they got 10000 mails or something.

It certainly seems to have mobilized her fanbase, which might not be the worst for ticket sales. I mean she had a pretty good and nice promo performance at the Billboard awards a few weeks ago and I don't think it got much attention

I read an interview with a German voice trainer who said, that she was basically just started too low on "Like the prayer" the whole time and her voice was probably not warmed up and she should better have started with the second song, which is easier. It just seems to have been over-ambitious to perform this live. I suppose voice warming up takes longer when you're older too, but I'd guess that she would have failed with this 20 or 30 years ago as well. I can't really remember if she ever did or managed a similar type of promo performance live and actually sounded good.

I think "live autotuning" has become pretty standard for many artists or at least I've read about it a lot.

Generally I think this is much ado about nothing and I don't think it will impact her ticket sales at all, I think the media hysteria is a bit of ageism driven, much more so than it having anyhting to do with her being a woman, because it reminds me of the treatment Axl Rose get's. I don't know about international media, but at least in German media, I've read nothing but trashing about him since he started performing again and he get's bashed both for his looks and shape and singing about equally. Now I've seen Guns N Roses live in the 1990s in the stadium and it was great and I looked into Guns N'Roses stadium concert in Germany from last year on Youtube and of course the new concerts are not comparable to the old stuff, but I also didn't see anything horrible. They're still filling stadiums and he also did those concerts with AC/DC and people seem to want to see it, so I don't think it warrants making fun of him being fatter and unfitter than when he was young and hot and wild. Seems people don't like it when people who have been pretty and young and brilliant becoming old and less fit and a bit mediocre, but usually that's what everybody get's to see eventually when looking into the mirror.
I don't think the fans usually care about this though. For me it's comparable to an elite skater who's been World Champion and landing all difficult triples and then he becomes a pro and will soon only jump a 3t and occasionally fail on that one too.

 

[Prancer]

No it's not so terrible, I was disappointed but it's not the end of the world. My beef isn't with Madonna having a bad performance it's with people saying she didn't and using the autotuned version as their "proof".

Yes, I knew what you were saying and wasn't questioning you but rather the fans who go to such lengths to deny that she was off.

People have bad days.

Someone else on a pop music board suggested that maybe they were trying to use some live software for autotune and that she wasn't on the right side of "just" out of tune so she was being pulled even further from the right note by the software - some of the wobbling on the long wrong notes might have been her trying to correct based on what she was hearing and making it worse. I had no idea there was even software that could autotune live but the guy discussing this is a sound tech and knows his stuff.

Yes, Georgina the Honest Vocal Coach said much the same thing and it makes sense, as autotune corrects not to the correct note, but to the nearest half step. So if Madonna was aiming for an A and was closer to an A flat, the software would correct to an A flat or worse, depending on how off she was.

 

[Vagabond]

Yes, Georgina the Honest Vocal Coach said much the same thing and it makes sense, as autotune corrects not to the correct note, but to the nearest half step. So if Madonna was aiming for an A and was closer to an A flat, the software would correct to an A flat or worse, depending on how off she was.

If they ever do a television version of "Florence Foster Jenkins," maybe they can get Madonna to play the Meryl Streep role.