Looking Back: 2000 Worlds Ladies LP - Slutskaya vs Butyrskaya vs Gusmeroli

[tony]

By now, I think it's obvious that a lot of us wish we were still living in the so-called glory days of skating circa 1996-2002 so this topic might excite a lot of people here.. I hope?

I re-watched the 2000 Worlds ladies competition and I think that the battle for places 2 to 4 in the long program is an interesting one between Irina Slutskaya, Maria Butyrskaya, and Vanessa Gusmeroli.

A little background: The standings after the short program had Butyrskaya 1st, Slutskaya 2nd, and Kwan 3rd. Gusmeroli had an awful qualifying round and was in 5th place overall behind Sarah Hughes. Kwan skated first in the final flight of the free skate, landing all 7 of her triples but received conservative marks to leave room for the others that would follow. She needed help in order to win the gold, though, as Butyrskaya had 1.0 total factored placements at that point (1QR, 1SP) and Kwan was at 2.6 (2QR, 3SP). This meant Kwan would have to finish 1st and Butyrskaya could be no higher than 3rd in the free skate in order for Michelle to have a chance to win. The old days of the ordinal system..

Gusmeroli: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXGVLKcOhg0
Butyrskaya: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGDF-qIeZrM
Slutskaya: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63RJK5ks0I4

Two judges gave Slutskaya 1st place ordinals over Kwan (which is ridiculous and in no way justified IMO), but in the end they placed her a solid 2nd in the free, Butyrskaya 3rd, and Gusmeroli narrowly 4th losing to Maria 5 judges to 4, giving Kwan the overall title.

Looking back at these skates, though, I'm not so sure that I'd give Slutskaya 2nd in the long. Her spins, which were usually a highlight, were really listless and almost non-existent aside from the combination spin with Biellmanns. The footwork was almost thrown away, and the jumps were extremely stalked and some of them had flow issues coming out. 6 triples, yes, but arguably the weakest overall program between the three. Gusmeroli landed 6 triples (maybe a Lutz was two-footed, it's still difficult to tell) and put all of her spins at the end, so some may argue that the program was front-loaded and unbalanced. Butyrskaya landed 5 really excellent triples but couldn't find her Salchow in two attempts. While some of her free skates seemed to shy away from some of the suggested elements, Swan Lake may have been her most complete program, actually showing better spins than Slutskaya IMO.

Do you think it's possible that most of the judges (which were VERY heavily European, by the way) knew that Kwan really ran away with the free skate and after they placed Butyrskaya ever-so-slightly ahead of Gusmeroli, the only way to let Michelle win was to give Irina 2nd in the long?

This isn't an Irina bash at all, I'm just shocked at how underwhelming she was in this particular event. I don't think Carmen was a strong vehicle (much preferred Don Quixote the following season), and I wish her free skate would have resembled something more along the lines of her interpretive program that season, which is probably my favorite Irina program (see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hINNgBAqIxQ)

What do you think? How would you have placed the three?

(Total side note but Diana Poth was *extremely* robbed in the short program in this event.)

 

[VGThuy]

It was like a repeat of 2000 Europeans in how close in performance all three performed with one another except I think all three performed better Euros if I recall correctly.

I finally timed how long Gusmeroli spent spinning at the end, and it was 50 seconds!

 

[Vagabond]

What do you think?

The end justifies the means.

How would you have placed the three?

Behind Sarah Hughes?

 

[giselle23]

The real mystery at this event was Michelle's technical marks. Yes, I know the judges had to leave room, but two 5.6s? It was a perfect, 7-triple program with a 3-3 and a triple lutz near the end. Did the judges really think Bute and Slute were going to beat that? She should have had no lower than a 5.8 and some 5.9s at least.

 

[VGThuy]

I think it was because Irina could have pulled 2 3/3s, and when Kwan switched the placements of the loop and double axel, the program became front-loaded. That said, it was seriously an excellent skate and the choreography was so good even if it was better at Skate America. That Skate America was the last time Kwan got a 6.0 for a program with a fall from an international judge and probably the last time she got serious high marks in tech and presentation from the Russian judge haha.

 

[bardtoob]

She should have had no lower than a 5.8 and some 5.9s at least.

I would have given Michelle 5.7 for the technical mark. Irina could have out jumped Michelle. Maria had already had an improbable skate the year before, so why can't lightning strike twice.

I'm not a fan of giving out 6.0s, and would have assumed Vanessa, even in a skate of her life scenario, could not beat what Michelle did because there is not one thing she ever did better than Michelle. However, Vanessa would have earned 6.0 had she out skated Michelle.

 

[VGThuy]

I think both Michelle and Maria would have maxed out at 5.8 for the tech mark for me. I probably would have given her a 5.7 as well being the first skater and all. Had Michelle Kwan skated after Maria and Irina and they all skated the same way, I maybe would have scored Michelle in the technical mark since under 6.0 we're allowed to do that.

 

[Marco]

For the free I probably would have given Bute 2nd, Gus 3rd and Slute 4th. That would still have given Kwan the title that year since I would have left Slute behind not only Bute but also Kwan and Gus in the short.

 

[giselle23]

I would have given Michelle 5.7 for the technical mark. Irina could have out jumped Michelle. Maria had already had an improbable skate the year before, so why can't lightning strike twice.

I'm not a fan of giving out 6.0s, and would have assumed Vanessa, even in a skate of her life scenario, could not beat what Michelle did because there is not one thing she ever did better than Michelle. However, Vanessa would have earned 6.0 had she out skated Michelle.

But the marks under 6.0 still had to mean something. Otherwise, why wouldn't ordinals just serve the purpose? The first skater would get a 1 but would be re-ranked as other skaters skated. If Michelle had been scored correctly-5.8 or 5.9-the judges wouldn't have had any need to manipulate other skaters' scores to put her first, if that is what they did.

 

[VGThuy]

I think it's because judges aren't allow to tie skaters and just hand out an ordinal to rank them after-the-fact. Because of that, the marks for tech and presentation were often manipulated as the competition went on. The marks were supposed to mean something, but it wasn't a strict value the way a 6.0 base value is for a Triple Lutz. It was meant to be flexible. The same skate in one competition may have garnered a 5.9 in tech but then only a 5.7 in another competition based on the competition. That's just the way 6.0 worked. Your marks were not just your own but also how your competitors shaped the competition and level of skating.

 

[bardtoob]

But the marks under 6.0 still had to mean something. Otherwise, why wouldn't ordinals just serve the purpose?

As far as I know, the 6.0 system scores only had meaning when judging compulsory figures.

I believe there was some concept of base value when judging freeskating. For example, after triples became common, scoring above a 5.0 was not realistic without any. However, if your base value was on par with the final flight and you were in the final flight, then 5.5 could be a legitimate score to be ranked 1st and the judges would only consider giving a score higher if the judges did not think some of the later skaters even had the ability to match the content.

 

[alchemy void]

I re-watched the top 4 in skate order, and this is how I scored them.
Butyrskaya was my favorite skater forever, so hopefully this isn't too biased.

Kwan 5.8/5.9 11.7 [1]
Stunning. Those tech marks were bullshit. Scoring this 5.8/5.9 still allows the panel enough room to put 2 or 3 skaters ahead if necessary. If there were 2 performances out there better than this, then that 6.0 would have been very well-deserved.

Gusmeroli 5.5/5.7 11.2 [4]
My issues with Vanessa here was (a) the program construction with all the spins at the end, (b) and almost every jump had a wild jerky landing. Very good circular footwork sequence. Interesting choreography, but simplistic compared to Kwan and even Butyrskaya. Vanessa was always a little unfinished and sloppy, but that seemed amplified in this performance, and was jarring to me, especially after Kwan.

Butyrskaya 5.5/5.8 11.3 [2]
One less triple than Gusmeroli, but I marked her even technically with Gusmeroli based on the quality of the 5 triples and axel; so much speed out of all the landings. The lutz and flip were gorgeous. On the negative side, she had no combination and repeated the 3toe. Good spin quality. I really appreciate the non-traditional Swan Lake interpretation, and it was by far the most polished and well-constructed program after Kwan. I remember back in the day this wasn't her most popular program, but I think it has aged quite well.

Slutskaya 5.7/5.6 11.3 [3]
The best part of this program was the shade Gannon throws to Peggy and Dick, after several mis-identified jump attempts. Technically, still strong, with 6 good (but not great) triples. The opening 2salchow was distracting, too, and the choreography afterwards was a rushed hot mess. I don't hate this program, but this particular performance was not good, even Nations Cup that season was much better. Clearly the second best technical performance of the evening, even with spins and footwork that were subpar for her. But presentation wise this was well below Butyrskaya and Gusmeroli, and deserved to be marked below both, even with her superior speed and ice coverage.

I really am curious how many of the judges threw second place ordinals to Slutskaya, just to get Kwan her (deserved) world title? I can see Vanessa and Maria both pulling maybe 1 or 2 second place ordinals if that wasn't the case.

The 20% qualifying round rule was right up there with the GPF "Super Final" as the stupidest ISU decisions in the early 2000s. Way to take all the drama out of it.

 

[Marco]

Well after Slutskaya "almost but didn't" help Kwan in 1997, it was nice that she finally did help Kwan in 2000. (before she ultimately worked against Kwan in 2002 Olympics )

 

[zigzig]

Michelle was a Dom P among a tub of Barefoot Bubbly. And I have a hard time figuring out what the judges were trying to work out here. The ones who lowballed her ultimately gave her first anyway and the high roller out of the gate (UKR) who gave her a 5.8/5.9 ended up giving Irina first with a 5.9/5.9 which is pure LOL.

Maria had the best competitive programs of her career this season - crazy to think that if she had hit one of her salchows she probably would have been 2nd in the long and first overall and been a repeating champion which would have been something Michelle wouldn't have done in her entire career

 

[VGThuy]

The judges that low-balled her were probably talking to their inner Vanessa Rielly. The scores reflected how they felt about the program/performance but also felt she deserved first anyway.

 

[slipchuk]

Irina was the dominant skater that season and the recent GPF champion, and ahead of Michelle after the short. Maria was the defending World champion and leader after the short program. And she was skating first. I agree the two 5.6s were too low, but other than that 5.7s and 5.8s for technical and 5.8s and 5.9s for artistic were as high as the judges were even going to go no matter how great Kwan skated. The judges were probably still expecting to only place her 3rd at that point considering Irina had been skating lights out in recent competitions and in practice, and Maria had just done her best skate ever in the short program and was also practicing very well.

As for giselle's comment did the judges really expect either Irina or Maria to beat that, Irina can quite easily beat that exact skate technically. Most of her skates that season do so. Just remember her skate at the GPF a couple months earlier with a triple lutz-triple loop and triple salchow-triple loop, that obviously would blow even Kwan's great Worlds performance out of the water technically, and she had done triple lutz-triple loop at Russian Nationals too. Along with bigger and stronger jumps, and better spins. So the judges had good reason to think Irina especialy could do even better technically, most people probably expected it.

 

[VGThuy]

I'd argue that Kwan was actually the dominant skater that season until GPF Super Final LP in February of 2000. Kwan did beat Irina in the GPF SP and Round 1 LP.

 

[slipchuk]

Perception is everything though. Going into worlds Irina was now seen as the dominant skater and one to beat. She had won the decisive final program to win the GPF, and she also won Europeans emphatically easily winning both the short and long, even with both Maria and Vanessa having spectacular skates in the long. While Kwan had recently struggled to win U.S Nationals with a pair of rather lackluster performances which at this point had a weaker field than Europeans. Had Cohen just landed the last triple toe she would have won, and she wasnt even able to medal at junior worlds. So going into worlds both Kwan and Butyrskaya were seen as shaky in comparision to Irina, and Irina as the one to beat.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm just saying Kwan was having a pretty good season until that GPF Super Final. Her Nationals did suck though but I remember watching the season in real time and nobody thought Kwan's nationals performance would have any bearing on how she would skate at Worlds and she was still a big name and considered one of the top contenders for the title. I mean they're two months apart. I do agree that something happened with the judges and it became much more competitive for Kwan. Even if Irina was becoming the judges' pet, it's not like Kwan was chopped liver. She just had to work harder for it now.

Anyway, all that perception is in the past. Kwan won 2000 Worlds deservedly.

 

[Marco]

As for giselle's comment did the judges really expect either Irina or Maria to beat that, Irina can quite easily beat that exact skate technically. Most of her skates that season do so

She mostly landed 5 or 6 triples in her free skates that season, without a 3/3. The only notable exception of course being the GPF super final where she landed 2 3/3s but only because she had nothing to lose.

Incidentally she did squeak out 2 3/3s at the next Worlds and still lost to Kwan on 7/2 who did the same jumps as she did in 2000 - and that's after Slutskaya beat her a few times (SC and GPF).

 

[slipchuk]

Irina's performance in 2001 wasnt clean. She stepped out of a major jumps and had some other shaky landings and underrotated jumps (granted not as big a deal under 6.0) while Kwan's was perfect and IMO a better program than her 2000 program. Irina probably also lost some artistic marks for the ugly girdle she wore which looked like it belonged in the last century and showed off she is a bit chunky.

 

[VGThuy]

Irina's performance in 2001 wasnt clean. She stepped out of a major jumps and had some other shaky landings and underrotated jumps (granted not as big a deal under 6.0) while Kwan's was perfect and IMO a better program than her 2000 program. Irina probably also lost some artistic marks for the ugly girdle she wore which looked like it belonged in the last century and showed off she is a bit chunky.

That's harsh, even for me. Speaking of costumes, has it ever been validated that Kwan lost her luggage at 2001 Worlds, which is why she wore what looks like a practice dress for her LP? Don't get me wrong, it was a nice looking practice dress.

 

[giselle23]

Irina was the dominant skater that season and the recent GPF champion, and ahead of Michelle after the short. Maria was the defending World champion and leader after the short program. And she was skating first. I agree the two 5.6s were too low, but other than that 5.7s and 5.8s for technical and 5.8s and 5.9s for artistic were as high as the judges were even going to go no matter how great Kwan skated. The judges were probably still expecting to only place her 3rd at that point considering Irina had been skating lights out in recent competitions and in practice, and Maria had just done her best skate ever in the short program and was also practicing very well.

As for giselle's comment did the judges really expect either Irina or Maria to beat that, Irina can quite easily beat that exact skate technically. Most of her skates that season do so. Just remember her skate at the GPF a couple months earlier with a triple lutz-triple loop and triple salchow-triple loop, that obviously would blow even Kwan's great Worlds performance out of the water technically, and she had done triple lutz-triple loop at Russian Nationals too. Along with bigger and stronger jumps, and better spins. So the judges had good reason to think Irina especialy could do even better technically, most people probably expected it.

Maybe Irina was dominant but Michelle delivered when it counted. And both Maria and Irina could have been placed above Michelle if the judges had given her a 5.8 technical score. That would have acknowledged the superiority of her skate and allowed for the possibility that Irina, at least, might out-jump her. Personally, I would have given her a 5.9 but I can see the case for 5.8. I can't see the case for 5.6 or even 5.7.

 

[Vagabond]

@IgnoredMember

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VITwmPOt8UA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4keH9mngPRk

 

[Clay]

I'm Clay and I'm weirdo because that's my fav Maria Butyrskaya free programs and one of my top Swan Lakes.
I'd have Butyrskaya and Gusmeroli as 2 or 3. Gusmeroli's spins at the end were difficult in their own way and a different artistic direction. Really though, Slutskaya's spirals and back pumping look worse looking back and I can't have that near the top free skating performances

That's harsh, even for me. Speaking of costumes, has it ever been validated that Kwan lost her luggage at 2001 Worlds, which is why she wore what looks like a practice dress for her LP? Don't get me wrong, it was a nice looking practice dress.

I don't think that was ever confirmed. Her luggage was lost but I don't think it was mentioned whether it was recovered in time. That program lost the Swan-feel by Worlds, so the dress didn't matter. Frank's ties matched Kwan's dresses, so there was some kind of planning involved.

 

[Maximillian]

Wow, I remember watching this back in the day, when I was totally on the Slute bandwagon and all I can think now is, what the H was I thinking? Also, thank goodness for the skating skills category in PCS! I would have probably given Bute second place, Gusmeroli third and Slute 4th, even though it does mean that Michelle would have only gotten silver. I actually really enjoyed Gusmeroli's LP, both then and now, love the Legends of the Fall music and didn't mind the series of spins at the end, particularly the camels done on both feet.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't think that was ever confirmed. Her luggage was lost but I don't think it was mentioned whether it was recovered in time. That program lost the Swan-feel by Worlds, so the dress didn't matter. Frank's ties matched Kwan's dresses, so there was some kind of planning involved.

Hey she had some arm flaps in the beginning and that head roll going into that back spiral to split falling leaf to spread eagle to death drop. That's still my favorite ladies LP ending. Too bad Kwan sort of played it out with Schez, Aranjuez, and Tosca having similar endings with some variation.

That dress with matching headband she wore for the 2001-2002 GPF performance of SOTBS was a lot more theatrical and swan-like and I wondered if that was the dress she was planning to wear. It did seem similar to Irina's 2001 SP costume though.

https://goo.gl/images/PJTza9

https://goo.gl/images/qidXdX

https://goo.gl/images/Dk3Sza

 

[Clay]

Hey she had some arm flaps in the beginning and that head roll going into that back spiral to split falling leaf to spread eagle to death drop. That's still my favorite ladies LP ending. Too bad Kwan sort of played it out with Schez, Aranjuez, and Tosca having similar endings with some variation.

That dress with matching headband she wore for the 2001-2002 GPF performance of SOTBS was a lot more theatrical and swan-like and I wondered if that was the dress she was planning to wear. It did seem similar to Irina's 2001 SP costume though.

Kwan with a headband was VERY different.

 

[Marco]

Wow, I remember watching this back in the day, when I was totally on the Slute bandwagon and all I can think now is, what the H was I thinking? Also, thank goodness for the skating skills category in PCS! I would have probably given Bute second place, Gusmeroli third and Slute 4th, even though it does mean that Michelle would have only gotten silver. I actually really enjoyed Gusmeroli's LP, both then and now, love the Legends of the Fall music and didn't mind the series of spins at the end, particularly the camels done on both feet.

Please also re-watch the short.

 

[tony]

I think I also would have had it Kwan, Butyrskaya, Gusmeroli, and then Slutskaya. The toss-up for me was between Butyrskaya and Gusmeroli, but I think Maria wins based on the strength of the program layout and the solidness of the triples she did complete. Somebody already mentioned that Gusmeroli had that wide-swinging free leg on jump landings and it was really evident this time. Still, almost as much magic in this skate as the one she had at Europeans.

I forgot to mention in my initial post that even Irina's spirals were just casually skated right through. Aside from the telegraphed jumps and combination spin, that means she really didn't have much to offer and momentum or not, I'm really surprised that the judges marked her 2nd that easily.

IIRC, this was brought up in the 2000 Worlds retrospective thread, but I doubt Maria landing that second Salchow attempt would have had any effect on the outcome. She only narrowly beat Gusmeroli, and came nowhere close to Slutskaya on most scorecards.