Just call me Harry. (Everything Harry & Meghan)

[starrynight]

The issues of bad behaviour to staff have been pretty well documented over the years.

The Times article had a source that described both Harry and Meghan as 'outrageous bullies'. Also quotes of staff being left shaking with fear. The situation was serious enough for it to be escalated up in writing to several points of authority. But then the process was hushed up to protect Meghan and Harry from a bullying enquiry.

Then Harry and Meghan release a statement basically calling their staff who entered these complaints liars. Which is basically gas lighting them. It's pretty mind-blowing stuff and my sympathy goes to anyone they may have mistreated or feels was mistreated who has then been called a liar on a world stage. Given that I think lower paid women are always bigger targets for workplace mistreatment, this issue needs to be dealt with more sympathy.

I've experienced and witnessed my fair share of workplace bullying. Stuff that mirrors this pretty closely. The people that get away with it long term are usually those that present a very desirable charismatic front to others while bullying lower ranked easy targets in the background. Usually with some kind of excuse that the bully was left with no choice because the staff member wasn't good enough for them or is too sensitive or weak. But in reality, it's just a power-trip.

Pleased that Buckingham Palace are at least re-opening their HR enquiry into it - although more should have been done at the time, so those women weren't forced to give up their jobs. Workplace bullying is a dreadful thing and I've seen too much of it hushed up to protect senior people who are considered too 'valuable' to discipline. Bullying at work should never be an accepted thing.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't think it's clear that the earrings were a gift to or owned by the Queen. There's another rumor that they were a wedding present from Mohammed bin Salman to the Duchess of Sussex herself. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/03/buckingham-palace-to-examine-bullying-allegations-against-meghan. Let's not jump to conclusions here.

If you read both Twitter threads, the earrings were given to the Queen possibly as a present to MM for MM's use, which is some arcane process by which the Crown owns everything. The questions are whether MM knew who the donor was and whether she had the earrings physically in her possession, even if the Queen owned them, but ownership was clear and went through standard gift-giving protocols.

The UK has not broken with Saudi Arabia, regardless of the timing of rumors and then confirmation of MBS' involvement in the murder. I don't see any discussion of whether it would have created a diplomatic crisis, ie, considered insulting, had she chosen not to wear them, if she, indeed, had the choice (or "choice.") Royal families observe protocols with other royals: even if their families have been royals for 1000 years, they still bow to their "superiors" who have been created/appointed as monarchs in the last decade.

 

[skategal]

Well if they are letting current or former staff speak out, this could get really interesting.

I am willing to bet there is more than one Royal who has bullied a staff member.

I hope it’s all exposed.

 

[puglover]

I am not sure anyone wins by all this back and forth except for the media who sell their product most effectively through every accusation and controversy. Hence the royal motto "Don't complain - don't explain" that dates back to the 1800's. Now I definitely think all people should be able to defend themselves but at what point are they inadvertently feeding the mouths that don't care if they are destroyed or not as long as there is a story in it. At its essence, this is a family. Probably not all that different from yours and mine with joy and pain, moments of connection and support and moments of anger and hurt. It is all made more complicated by royal protocol, a mad hungry media, and far too many people willing to buy filth.

 

[Judy]

We should send a spy in:

Current Vacancies - The Royal Household

Description

theroyalhousehold.tal.net

 

[ballettmaus]

Sophie accepted a gifted set of jewels from Bahrain and it even made the Daily Mail.

When did the Crown Prince of Bahrain last have a journalist dismembered?

Once again if the jewels don't belong to H&M but rather to the Crown then the Crown:
1) should not have accepted the jewels to begin with

If only it were that simple. Saudi Arabia is still a UK ally. Since the BRF is supposed to be politically neutral, they can't just refuse a gift. That would make a political statement and in diplomatic circles, a very strong one at that.

 

[canbelto]

When did the Crown Prince of Bahrain last have a journalist dismembered?


If only it were that simple. Saudi Arabia is still a UK ally. Since the BRF is supposed to be politically neutral, they can't just refuse a gift. That would make a political statement and in diplomatic circles, a very strong one at that.

Again, I don't know how Meghan is supposed to be at fault if she doesn't own the jewels. They weren't a gift for her, they were a gift to the Crown. The twitter thread (which I read) makes it clear they weren't personal gifts.

I also don't see how BP can with a straight face launch an "investigation" about Meghan's treatment of staff AFTER she left if the complaints were known when she was still a working royal. And they're still protecting Andrew. BP sucks. Earring-gate and this new scandal are things they had a responsibility to manage in real time, not after the fact when H&M are about to go on Oprah.

 

[overedge]

I am not sure anyone wins by all this back and forth except for the media who sell their product most effectively through every accusation and controversy.

I disagree. If (and I realize this is a big "if") a complaint results in some changes in how Royal staff are treated, or how complaints of bullying or harassment are resolved, that will be an important precedent for future employees. The Royals are, well, royals, but they are also employers, and AFAIK there's no provision that excuses the Royal household from following employment law.

Having said that - regardless of whether the complaints against Meghan are valid, her message of "I've been bullied myself so I know it is wrong" is the wrong message IMO. That's like male politicians who say "As the father of daughters" or "As a husband" or "As a son" when they condemn sexual violence against women. Those things are wrong, period. Framing the issue that way makes it sound like only people with a personal connection to the issue should be concerned about it.

 

[Karen-W]

Again, I don't know how Meghan is supposed to be at fault if she doesn't own the jewels. They weren't a gift for her, they were a gift to the Crown. The twitter thread (which I read) makes it clear they weren't personal gifts.

I also don't see how BP can with a straight face launch an "investigation" about Meghan's treatment of staff AFTER she left if the complaints were known when she was still a working royal. And they're still protecting Andrew. BP sucks. Earring-gate and this new scandal are things they had a responsibility to manage in real time, not after the fact when H&M are about to go on Oprah.

She doesn't "own" the jewels but she had exclusive rights to wear them while a working royal. With that exclusive right comes the responsibility of NOT wearing them right after MBS was involved in the murder of a well-known journalist. She should have known this. Bottom line is she made a poor decision to wear them. The mechanics of how she arrived at that decision are irrelevant because, ultimately, she is an adult and adults take responsibility for their actions.

There are multiple scenarios this could have played out and none of them change the ultimate onus of responsibility from her.

1) Her staff/BP didn’t inform her - her fault because it's her staff and she's the boss, as Harry Truman said "the buck stops here"
A) who gifted her the jewels or that they were an "official gift"
B) that MBS was allegedly (at the time) involved in the journalist's death
2) her staff did all that and she - again, this is still her fault, not her staff or anyone else
A) disregarded/dismissed the information
B) possibly lied about the provenance to others when asked about the jewels for whatever motives

The problem with the bullying accusations:
1) BP apparently did nothing to investigate the allegations at the time, which is terrible from an HR perspective
2) Meghan & Harry have been claiming, since before they exited stage left the BRF, that they didn't feel supported by KP/BP and yet... it looks like the Firm was trying to protect her by not investigating the bullying accusations.
3) another major reason for leaving the working royal life was bullying from the print media, so if these allegations about her own behavior toward staff are borne out to be in any degree true, it makes hypocrites out of Meghan & Harry.

These rumors, btw, are NOT new. They have been floating around since at least the late summer/fall after the wedding.

 

[canbelto]

Again I read the complaints. They don't sound like bullying. They sound like a demanding boss for sure, but not bullying. And I have no way of knowing this but it's a hunch: the BP staff might have been offended taking orders from a woman of color. If Andrew the pedo talked to them the same way I bet they would have been fine with it.

 

[starrynight]

They don't sound like bullying. They sound like a demanding boss for sure, but not bullying.

Unfortunately this is the line that gets produced any time a subordinate tries to speak up about workplace bullying. I've had the same thing said to me - in relation to a boss that actually threw folders of paper across the office in a rage and bullied many members of staff into mental breakdowns.

 

[Karen-W]

Again I read the complaints. They don't sound like bullying. They sound like a demanding boss for sure, but not bullying. And I have no way of knowing this but it's a hunch: the BP staff might have been offended taking orders from a woman of color. If Andrew the pedo talked to them the same way I bet they would have been fine with it.

YMMV. I haven’t lived or worked in the UK but there definitely seems to have been a clash in working styles/office culture and Meghan crossing some lines that aren't crossed in the UK. Again, probably goes back to it wouldn’t have hurt for her to have lived and worked in the UK for longer prior to getting engaged.

But, I get it, again, YMMV and you're going to find any reason to see race as the driving factor in all of Meghan's troubles, and thus give her a pass.

 

[canbelto]

YMMV. I haven’t lived or worked in the UK but there definitely seems to have been a clash in working styles/office culture and Meghan crossing some lines that aren't crossed in the UK. Again, probably goes back to it wouldn’t have hurt for her to have lived and worked in the UK for longer prior to getting engaged.

But, I get it, again, YMMV and you're going to find any reason to see race as the driving factor in all of Meghan's troubles, and thus give her a pass.

I've said this before: I think that much of the time race is the first, last, and only thing people see about another person. Nothing in the "bullying" reports comes across as egregious bullying. I've had so many mean bosses before. Whatever. It's part of life.

This is just an obvious smear campaign right before the Oprah interview. It's so transparent. They must want Meghan to have a miscarriage.

 

[overedge]

These observations are based on a very small sample, i.e. me, but there are really big differences between UK and North American workplaces even in what small things mean. Like a UK colleague might say to you "I'm so terribly sorry but that isn't possible" and really mean "Don't ever ask me about that again". Whereas a US colleague might say "That isn't possible but let's figure out another way to get this done." Understanding that sort of nuance is really hard if you're new - it's mostly through trial and error that you learn what certain phrases or words are really intended to convey.

That being said, I would also guess that the Royal Household is not the only employer in the UK who failed to fully investigate an allegation of bullying.

 

[canbelto]

The Tommy Lascelles of BP really need to stop being so racist.

 

[ballettmaus]

Again, I don't know how Meghan is supposed to be at fault if she doesn't own the jewels.

I didn't say that, did I?

They weren't a gift for her, they were a gift to the Crown.

Who exactly they were gifted to is neither here nor there when you say that the Crown should not have accepted them in the first place. They may not have wanted to but they couldn't decline without causing an international incident.

I also don't see how BP can with a straight face launch an "investigation" about Meghan's treatment of staff AFTER she left if the complaints were known when she was still a working royal. And they're still protecting Andrew. BP sucks. Earring-gate and this new scandal are things they had a responsibility to manage in real time, not after the fact when H&M are about to go on Oprah.

I agree with you on Prince Andrew. They should not be protecting him.

The rest is just a mess and the way the media is covering it doesn't help.

 

[canbelto]

I didn't say that, did I?


Who exactly they were gifted to is neither here nor there when you say that the Crown should not have accepted them in the first place. They may not have wanted to but they couldn't decline without causing an international incident.

My point is if the jewels were so problematic the Crown (which distributes the jewels) should not have given them out to wear. The fact that they're blaming Meghan for wearing them is ridiculous considering they could lock them up in a vault and the jewels never see the light of day again.

The response to Meghan reminds me of some of the response to Misty Copeland. There are Misty Copeland hate threads and hate boards and hate blogs. Misty Copeland is not my favorite ballerina but the hate blogs just reek of white fragility and microaggressions.

Also I need to say this again: Andrew is still being protected and squirreled away in some cottage somewhere. His kids are still treated as working royals even though they don't do much actual work.

 

[overedge]

My point is if the jewels were so problematic the Crown (which distributes the jewels) should not have given them out to wear. The fact that they're blaming Meghan for wearing them is ridiculous considering they could lock them up in a vault and the jewels never see the light of day again.

The Crown keeps the jewels in storage, but weren't the earrings in question given as a wedding gift to H&M directly? As opposed to, say, giving a Royal family member a gift from the host country during an overseas visit.

 

[skategal]

The Crown keeps the jewels in storage, but weren't the earrings in question given as a wedding gift to H&M directly? As opposed to, say, giving a Royal family member a gift from the host country during an overseas visit.

What I read was that they were given to the Queen as a wedding gift for H&M and are property of the Crown.

 

[Parsley Sage]

It's my understanding that wedding gifts or gifts given to a specific royal belong to the crown but the royal is allowed to keep them in their possession as long as they are alive or as long as they are a member of the royal family.

 

[canbelto]

I still don't understand how any of this is remotely Meghan's fault. If they wanted Meghan not to wear the jewels they should have simply collected them. Since they don't belong to Meghan she would have to give them back.

Also Crown jewels do belong to the Crown. Kate for instance often wears tiaras that were worn by Diana.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

The Crown is responsible for what it owns and Meghan is responsible for what she wears. They share the blame for showing public favor to the gift of a despicable regime.

 

[overedge]

@canbelto Meghan is the boss, not the staff. If she decided to wear the earrings and the staff didn't think it was a good idea, the most they could have done is tell her that. She's not a child - they can't take them away from her because they don't want her to wear them.

I agree with you that the timing of all this information coming out is highly suspicious. But it's also possible that Meghan made a poor decision in the situation that's being described .

 

[Judy]

Shocking this is all leaking before the interview lol.

 

[canbelto]

@canbelto Meghan is the boss, not the staff. If she decided to wear the earrings and the staff didn't think it was a good idea, the most they could have done is tell her that. She's not a child - they can't take them away from her because they don't want her to wear them.

I agree with you that the timing of all this information coming out is highly suspicious. But it's also possible that Meghan made a poor decision in the situation that's being described .

If you watch The Crown Tommy Lascelles at times does exactly that -- tell the royals what they can and cannot do. There's a whole industry of courtiers and private secretaries who tell the royals what the protocol is and what they can and can't do. If jewels belong to the Crown then the gray men can retrieve those jewels and take them to the vault. Again, this sounds like a managment oversight from the Crown that is being leaked before the Oprah interview.

 

[Karen-W]

@canbelto - there are some very good reasons why Meghan, nor most other members of the BRF "own" any of the jewels they receive as gifts in honor of marriage, births of children, etc - inheritance/estate taxes. If all of those gifts are property of the Crown and loaned out (even if, in the case of Diana and, specifically the Cambridge Lovers Knot tiara which she wore frequently, or jewels she received and wore during her time as Princess of Wales) then when the wearer passes, the pieces are returned to the royal vault and the family aren't responsible for paying estate/inheritance taxes.

The jewels were acquired by virtue of their position as representatives of The Queen as head in state, not as personal gifts and having them belong to the Crown rather than the individual is a rather new phenomenon in only the last 40 years, in part due to several branches of the family selling off some rather important pieces (Queen Mary gave her daughter, Princess Mary a few) when they had to pay death duties. Same thing happened with a few of Princess Margaret's pieces when she died.

It is only difficult for you to understand because you refuse to accept that Meghan might bear ANY responsibility for anything that happens, or that even if something happens, she is excused from culpability because of her race. It's sort of fascinating to read your responses as you twist every which way to excuse Meghan. I guess I wonder... is she a strong, independent woman who should be respected and admired for intellect and agency or is she a victim of forces so powerful there is nothing she can do wrong who lacks agency to change those all-powerful forces (even if you would hold a white person accountable for the same behavior)?

 

[Karen-W]

If you watch The Crown Tommy Lascelles at times does exactly that -- tell the royals what they can and cannot do. There's a whole industry of courtiers and private secretaries who tell the royals what the protocol is and what they can and can't do. If jewels belong to the Crown then the gray men can retrieve those jewels and take them to the vault. Again, this sounds like a managment oversight from the Crown that is being leaked before the Oprah interview.

Well, you're watching The Crown, so there is your first mistake. I tried to watch the 1st season and quit because it is so highly fictionalized and has its own agenda in attacking the BRF.

 

[canbelto]

It is only difficult for you to understand because you refuse to accept that Meghan might bear ANY responsibility for anything that happens, or that even if something happens, she is excused from culpability because of her race. It's sort of fascinating to read your responses as you twist every which way to excuse Meghan. I guess I wonder... is she a strong, independent woman who should be respected and admired for intellect and agency or is she a victim of forces so powerful there is nothing she can do wrong who lacks agency to change those all-powerful forces (even if you would hold a white person accountable for the same behavior)?

That's absolutely untrue. For instance if Archie were abused, or if she and Harry got divorced, or if Serena Williams one day says "actually Meghan was a real bitch to me" then that stuff is Meghan's fault because it's in her personal control. Those are failures in her personal relationships. I even think (and I got jumped on at a pro-Meghan site) that some of the issues with her father are her fault. I also was shocked that she fired her nanny on the first night according to Finding Freedom. Do you see my logic?

However, most of the things she's being criticized for as a royal have nothing to do with any of that. It's issues of protocol (she crossed her legs!), issues where the actual responsibility lies with the Crown (earring-gate), or poor prepping on the part of the Firm (if she treated the firm's staff like Hollywood assistants where 5 am marching orders are very typical, then someone should have prepped her about royal staff working hours). Also, the criticisms against her in the press were dog-whistle racist clickbait. If she left the Firm because she didn't like her son Archie being called a chimp, then how is that her fault? If people accused her of being a man and of faking her pregnancy with a fake bump because she's actually a man, why should she take that? Why should anyone take that?

 

[overedge]

@canbelto The Crown is not a documentary, and I know that there are lots of true stories about staff telling Royals what they can and can't do. But ultimately the Royals are in charge. And given that Harry intervened on Meghan's behalf with staff on other occasions, I doubt that, if she was set on wearing the earrings, any staff person would have told her "no, you can't" and taken them away from her.

And as I said, it's entirely possible for Meghan to have made a bad decision re the earrings and that staff are trying to smear her reputation before the interview airs. Both can be true at the same time.

 

[MacMadame]

My take on it, based on the relationship that the Royals have with Saudi Arabia, is that The Crown did not see anything wrong with the gift or with people wearing them. Therefore, it never occurred to them to tell Meghan not to wear them. Now that they are a political football, they are using that to get back at Meghan and Harry.