ISU Statement on Russia's war against Ukraine - Participation in international competitions of Skaters and Officials from Russia and Belarus

[allezfred]

You're saying it HAS to be a neighboring country? Horrors inflicted across the ocean don't count?

Come now. Be honest. There is nothing the USA can do, nothing at all, that will result in sanctions of any kind. You know it and I know it and the rest of this board knows it.

So what you are saying is because the USA has not been sanctioned in the past Russia should not be sanctioned in the present for what it is doing in Ukraine.

 

[PRlady]

I think that invasion of Canada would prove you wrong. Remember that Saddam Hussein was a homicidal maniac who gassed his own Kurds and Shia, and there was an international coalition fighting him. The two situations are only slightly analogous, no matter how bad the Iraq war looks in retrospect.

Israel used to cite Morocco’s occupation of the Spanish Sahara as “proof” that the world had it in for Israel. Even Hitler said, Who remembers the Armenians? There’s a long and ignoble tradition of finger-pointing at others to excuse the inexcusable. Don’t add to it.

 

[bladesofgorey]

Come now. Be honest. There is nothing the USA can do, nothing at all, that will result in sanctions of any kind. You know it and I know it and the rest of this board knows it.

Seriously STFU with this. I am the last one to be excusing the US for the harm it has done and still does in other countries, but this is an idiotic argument because what is happening in Ukraine is happening completely unprovoked and is a horrific display of aggression and barbarity. If (and when, unfortunately) the U.S. undertakes something similar I certainly expect and HOPE the rest of the world punishes us and pressures the powers that be to stop the atrocities however possible. Figure skating isn''t worth more than human lives, JFC.

 

[Nadya]

I think that invasion of Canada would prove you wrong. Remember that Saddam Hussein was a homicidal maniac who gassed his own Kurds and Shia, and there was an international coalition fighting him. The two situations are only slightly analogous, no matter how bad the Iraq war looks in retrospect.

Israel used to cite Morocco’s occupation of the Spanish Sahara as “proof” that the world had it in for Israel. Even Hitler said, Who remembers the Armenians? There’s a long and ignoble tradition of finger-pointing at others to excuse the inexcusable. Don’t add to it.

You'd be hard-pressed to argue that life for the Iraqi Shia has improved post-invasion. I mean it says a lot about the reality of the American invasion that not a few Iraqis felt Saddam improving upon comparison. The Shia especially. The body count speaks for itself.

The international coalition, as it was, was fighting the war stoked by fake evidence. How does it make it better that it was an international effort?

I haven't asked to excuse the inexcusable. I find the war in Ukraine inexcusable. I only want the people in the grip of righteous anger to acknowledge that international justice is hypocritical, uneven, and driven largely by politics. That's why, even as the world still remembers the Armenians - because we're very good about reminding the world - the US, for instance, has dithered to say "yes it was genocide" because hush honey, let's not upset the Turks. And so did Israel, up to a point. And remember, no one questioned that it really happened. Politics were in the way.

 

[Pink Cats]

Well, if the USA invades Canada to annex territory and no sanctions are taken against USFS get back to us.

But that’s not your argument is it. What you want is because other countries have done bad things in the past for Russia to have carte blanche to do what it likes with no consequences.

We want our own border wall so the right wing nut jobs can't get in.

You're saying it HAS to be a neighboring country? Horrors inflicted across the ocean don't count?

Come now. Be honest. There is nothing the USA can do, nothing at all, that will result in sanctions of any kind. You know it and I know it and the rest of this board knows it.

I totally agree with you the USA will never face the kind of sanctions that Russia is now but two wrongs don't make a right. You don't let all of the rapist go cause you can't catch all of the serial killers.

 

[Karen-W]

If only we had a time machine and could go back and right all the wrongs... Where WOULD we start? 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia? 1980 when the USSR invaded Afghanistan? 1968 when the USSR invaded Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague Spring movement? Every single time some form of Russia has invaded the Baltic nations or Finland? This is hardly a new thing with Russia, and history has proven it won't be the last.

You keep harping on the US, yet you have also stated that you live in the US, so you are free and open to criticize the very society that gives you that freedom, yet defend a government that is openly arresting anyone who even dares to call its current action in Ukraine anything but a "special military operation." Sure, the US government might not have labeled its actions in 1991 or post-2001 as wars, but that's because the US Constitution says that only Congress can declare war. Everyone knew exactly what Desert Storm and Operation Enduring Freedom were and no one was jailed for calling those actions war on TV, in the media, or for protesting against US military action. You just get back to us when any of that is true in Russia and then we might have something to discuss. As it is, you're here, safe, free to speak your mind, without worrying that your voice of dissent will land you in jail or worse. How do you ever sleep at night, living in such an awful country like the US?

 

[clairecloutier]

You're saying it HAS to be a neighboring country? Horrors inflicted across the ocean don't count?

Come now. Be honest. There is nothing the USA can do, nothing at all, that will result in sanctions of any kind. You know it and I know it and the rest of this board knows it.

If you want to argue that everything is political (and there is a lot of validity to that), then let's at least acknowledge that some countries are good at playing the political game, and some aren't.

Remember that the U.S. invasion of Iraq--which we now realize was misguided and in error--was undertaken not alone but with allies. And that the justification for the war was presented to the U.N. beforehand and, while not garnering universal support by any means, did get enough support to avoid the kind of major sanctions and international disgrace that Russia is now dealing with. Although the U.S. shouldn't have started this war, you could at least say that, if we were going to do it, we did it in the least diplomatically stupid manner possible, LOL. And that had certain results.

Contrast this approach with Putin's. Which has basically been to ignore any existing world order, to challenge the main military/political alliance on the European continent in almost the most flagrantly offensive way possible. The only diplomatic work that Putin did before the war was to make sure his rear flank was protected by that agreement with China that was published right before the Olympics. And since then, he has cozied up with right-wing India. These are the allies that he has. But he chose to throw mud in the face of all the other powerful countries in the world. He isolated himself. And yeah that has consequences.

I think if the U.S. mounted an attack that was as flagrantly outrageous and stupid and had as little support from big powers as what Putin has done in Ukraine and to a large country with a democratically elected gov't like Ukraine, we'd be sanctioned too and rightfully so.

 

[Nadya]

If only we had a time machine and could go back and right all the wrongs... Where WOULD we start? 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia? 1980 when the USSR invaded Afghanistan? 1968 when the USSR invaded Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague Spring movement? Every single time some form of Russia has invaded the Baltic nations or Finland? This is hardly a new thing with Russia, and history has proven it won't be the last.

You keep harping on the US, yet you have also stated that you live in the US, so you are free and open to criticize the very society that gives you that freedom, yet defend a government that is openly arresting anyone who even dares to call its current action in Ukraine anything but a "special military operation." Sure, the US government might not have labeled its actions in 1991 or post-2001 as wars, but that's because the US Constitution says that only Congress can declare war. Everyone knew exactly what Desert Storm and Operation Enduring Freedom were and no one was jailed for calling those actions war on TV, in the media, or for protesting against US military action. You just get back to us when any of that is true in Russia and then we might have something to discuss. As it is, you're here, safe, free to speak your mind, without worrying that your voice of dissent will land you in jail or worse. How do you ever sleep at night, living in such an awful country like the US?

Uncensored discussion and protests did nothing to reduce the Iraqi body count.

This is why you can never have a reasonable conversation with most Americans if you're an immigrant. However civilized the discussion, at the end they always want you to get on your knees and thank your lucky stars. No variation allowed.

I'm actually not harping on the US. I'm amused by the hypocrisy but the US is by no means the only offender.

 

[Fairuza]

Uncensored discussion and protests did nothing to reduce the Iraqi body count.

This is why you can never have a reasonable conversation with most Americans if you're an immigrant. However civilized the discussion, at the end they always want you to get on your knees and thank your lucky stars. No variation allowed.

I'm actually not harping on the US. I'm amused by the hypocrisy but the US is by no means the only offender.

Don’t you think you are warping the conversation ever so slightly? No one has asked to get you personally on your knees and thank anyone. But at least, criticism of Iraq invasion was never banned, critics were not fined or imprisoned, people were not arrested for giving books away for free. Children were not informing on their teachers. There was a lot of opposition, politicians largely lost their careers over it. Would you care to look at what’s happening now in Russia? Putin is having a war with the word “war” in fact, so just calling a war a war is a criminal offence.
And it’s nice hearing the body count in Iraq somehow excusing the body count in Ukraine now.

 

[Karen-W]

Uncensored discussion and protests did nothing to reduce the Iraqi body count.

This is why you can never have a reasonable conversation with most Americans if you're an immigrant. However civilized the discussion, at the end they always want you to get on your knees and thank your lucky stars. No variation allowed.

I'm actually not harping on the US. I'm amused by the hypocrisy but the US is by no means the only offender.

And yet the US is the only past offender you mention in this discussion...

And, really, if you were living in Canada or France or Japan, the point would remain the same. You are FREE to express your opinion or to call a spade a spade with no worry of arrest for that dissent. It is hardly something unique to America, that basic freedom of expression. But, you're right. I do think you should get down on your knees and thank your lucky stars to live in a country that affords you that right.

 

[Nadya]

If you want to argue that everything is political (and there is a lot of validity to that), then let's at least acknowledge that some countries are good at playing the political game, and some aren't.

Remember that the U.S. invasion of Iraq--which we now realize was misguided and in error--was undertaken not alone but with allies. And that the justification for the war was presented to the U.N. beforehand and, while not garnering universal support by any means, did get enough support to avoid the kind of major sanctions and international disgrace that Russia is now dealing with. Although the U.S. shouldn't have started this war, you could at least say that, if we were going to do it, we did it in the least diplomatically stupid manner possible, LOL. And that had certain results.

Contrast this approach with Putin's. Which has basically been to ignore any existing world order, to challenge the main military/political alliance on the European continent in almost the most flagrantly offensive way possible. The only diplomatic work that Putin did before the war was to make sure his rear flank was protected by that agreement with China that was published right before the Olympics. And since then, he has cozied up with right-wing India. These are the allies that he has. But he chose to throw mud in the face of all the other powerful countries in the world. He isolated himself. And yeah that has consequences.

I think if the U.S. mounted an attack that was as flagrantly outrageous and stupid and had as little support from big powers as what Putin has done in Ukraine and to a large country with a democratically elected gov't like Ukraine, we'd be sanctioned too and rightfully so.

Well now you're talking!

There really wasn't any way for Putin to garner any international support for the war with Ukraine - its cause is stupid and made-up, there is no justification or reason for it, and no country would ever sign up for this madness.

With all that said....after all the diplomatic maneuvering and coalition-building, the net result is half a million people are dead for a cause that was crap. "My son is dead but at least the US has free debates on telly", - said no Iraqi mother ever.

 

[Fairuza]

Well now you're talking!

There really wasn't any way for Putin to garner any international support for the war with Ukraine - its cause is stupid and made-up, there is no justification or reason for it, and no country would ever sign up for this madness.

With all that said....after all the diplomatic maneuvering and coalition-building, the net result is half a million people are dead for a cause that was crap. "My son is dead but at least the US has free debates on telly", - said no Iraqi mother ever.

You don’t get it, do you? You are free to call this cause crap. Now come over to Russia and call the cause of this war crap. I want to see what happens to you then.

 

[PRlady]

Uncensored discussion and protests did nothing to reduce the Iraqi body count.

This is why you can never have a reasonable conversation with most Americans if you're an immigrant. However civilized the discussion, at the end they always want you to get on your knees and thank your lucky stars. No variation allowed.

I'm actually not harping on the US. I'm amused by the hypocrisy but the US is by no means the only offender.

Uncensored discussion and publicity for horrors like Abu Ghraib in a free press allowed Obama to run on ending the war in 2008 - and win. Check in with us when Navalny can do the same.

 

[Nadya]

Don’t you think you are warping the conversation ever so slightly? No one has asked to get you personally on your knees and thank anyone. But at least, criticism of Iraq invasion was never banned, critics were not fined or imprisoned, people were not arrested for giving books away for free. Children were not informing on their teachers. There was a lot of opposition, politicians largely lost their careers over it. Would you care to look at what’s happening now in Russia? Putin is having a war with the word “war” in fact, so just calling a war a war is a criminal offence.
And it’s nice hearing the body count in Iraq somehow excusing the body count in Ukraine now.

It doesn't. But all this - "criticism of Iraq invasion was never banned, critics were not fined or imprisoned, people were not arrested for giving books away for free. Children were not informing on their teachers. There was a lot of opposition, politicians largely lost their careers over it." - does not excuse the Iraqi body count either so I don't really know why you bring this up as if it somehow makes it all better.

 

[Wyliefan]

The funny thing is, I don't believe for one second that you give a rat's ass about dead Iraqis.

 

[Fairuza]

It doesn't. But all this - "criticism of Iraq invasion was never banned, critics were not fined or imprisoned, people were not arrested for giving books away for free. Children were not informing on their teachers. There was a lot of opposition, politicians largely lost their careers over it." - does not excuse the Iraqi body count either so I don't really know why you bring this up as if it somehow makes it all better.

Sorry, are we only allowed to speak about the things you want to speak about?
Nothing makes a war better. But it’s much better living in a society that can openly speak about it, right?
As I said, welcome here, try calling the current war crap. Which it is. It might make the difference between the situation clearer to you. A bit.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

The funny thing is, I don't believe for one second that you give a rat's ass about dead Iraqis.

But this is the only half credible argument that Nadya can make to say poor, poor Russians no matter how many people shoot it down as not being the same, in the past, doesn't justify ignoring issues now, etc. Nadya has no other leg to stand on and has to repeat ad nauseum in hopes it works at some point.

 

[BlueRidge]

I spent years as an antiwar activist. I wish the attention given to the horrors of this current war had been given to all those in the past, and those in the present still being ignored such as in Yemen, or in the Tigray region of Ethiopia or the continuing war in Syria, the brutality of which is beyond unthinkable.

I am thankful that the world cares about this war and is seeing what war means not turning a blind eye. Specific to the ban on athletes, I hope this is a new precedent. If citizens of a country know they will pay no matter who they are if their country prosecutes a war of aggression, it will make a difference in the future.

The worldwide response to Russia's brutal war of aggression in Ukraine is something NEW for the world but it could become a precedent, one that could help prevent future horrors.

Arguing against the ban on athletes, the sanctions on Russia, and other consequences that have often not been undertaken in the past is to argue that the world should stay the same brutal place it has long been. I don't understand that sentiment.

 

[bladesofgorey]

It doesn't. But all this - "criticism of Iraq invasion was never banned, critics were not fined or imprisoned, people were not arrested for giving books away for free. Children were not informing on their teachers. There was a lot of opposition, politicians largely lost their careers over it." - does not excuse the Iraqi body count either so I don't really know why you bring this up as if it somehow makes it all better.

It doesn't make the results better, of course not. But it allows for dissent and pressure on a country to some degree by its own citizens. Listen, as I've stated before I have been in the streets and assaulted by police in riot gear in the lead up to the Iraq invasion and in other protests and actions since. But this moment in time is not apples to apples. If the US was doing what Russia is right this moment and we were not being sanctioned that would be a grave injustice, and a large percentage of US citizens, myself included, would be BEGGING the rest of the world to intervene with whatever pressures they could to stop the unjust aggression. What about this is so hard for you to understand? Obviously you feel this is unfair somehow to Russia which is really something. If the US was punished for similar current atrocities I wouldn't think it unfair in the least and you'd see tons of people in our streets agreeing.

 

[Nadya]

Sorry, are we only allowed to speak about the things you want to speak about?
Nothing makes a war better. But it’s much better living in a society that can openly speak about it, right?
As I said, welcome here, try calling the current war crap. Which it is. It might make the difference between the situation clearer to you. A bit.

Do you think that was much comfort to the families of the dead Iraqis? Yes my son is dead but alhamdullilah. Americans still have C-SPAN. All better now.

I spent years as an antiwar activist. I wish the attention given to the horrors of this current war had been given to all those in the past, and those in the present still being ignored such as in Yemen, or in the Tigray region of Ethiopia or the continuing war in Syria, the brutality of which is beyond unthinkable.

I am thankful that the world cares about this war and is seeing what war means not turning a blind eye. Specific to the ban on athletes, I hope this is a new precedent. If citizens of a country know they will pay no matter who they are if their country prosecutes a war of aggression, it will make a difference in the future.

The worldwide response to Russia's brutal war of aggression in Ukraine is something NEW for the world but it could become a precedent, one that could help prevent future horrors.

Arguing against the ban on athletes, the sanctions on Russia, and other consequences that have often not been undertaken in the past is to argue that the world should stay the same brutal place it has long been. I don't understand that sentiment.

I have the utmost respect for you and for your experience as the antiwar activist.

I wish I could share your faith that the worldwide response to Russia's brutality in Ukraine would become a precedent. I wish it would, but realistically, the world will continue to punish whoever it wants, and ignore whoever it wants, and that will be decided by the current global balance of power, and not by the body count.

 

[Nadya]

It doesn't make the results better, of course not. But it allows for dissent and pressure on a country to some degree by its own citizens. Listen, as I've stated before I have been in the streets and assaulted by police in riot gear in the lead up to the Iraq invasion and in other protests and actions since. But this moment in time is not apples to apples. If the US was doing what Russia is right this moment and we were not being sanctioned that would be a grave injustice, and a large percentage of US citizens, myself included, would be BEGGING the rest of the world to intervene with whatever pressures they could to stop the unjust aggression. What about this is so hard for you to understand? Obviously you feel this is unfair somehow to Russia which is really something. If the US was punished for similar current atrocities I wouldn't think it unfair in the least and you'd see tons of people in our streets agreeing.

If dissent is allowed, why is police in riot gear assaulting you?

Actually, I don't feel it's unfair to Russia. Russia deserves everything coming its way.

But you obviously feel it is improper for me to point out that the global reprimand to Russia has been an outlier in the long list of wars with much greater casualty numbers. Or, indeed, to doubt that it would have happened if the country behind the brutality was not Russia. Or that the regs hastily being passed now would be applied universally in the future.

 

[Pink Cats]

If dissent is allowed, why is police in riot gear assaulting you?

Actually, I don't feel it's unfair to Russia. Russia deserves everything coming its way.

But you obviously feel it is improper for me to point out that the global reprimand to Russia has been an outlier in the long list of wars with much greater casualty numbers. Or, indeed, to doubt that it would have happened if the country behind the brutality was not Russia. Or that the regs hastily being passed now would be applied universally in the future.

I think the global reaction has less to do with Russia being the aggressor and more to do with Ukrainians being white European's. I think if they had invaded one of the Asian countries there would have been less of a reaction.

 

[bladesofgorey]

I think the global reaction has less to do with Russia being the aggressor and more to do with Ukrainians being white European's. I think if they had invaded one of the Asian countries there would have been less of a reaction.

This is most certainly possible, but I also think it's largely because much of the first-hand stories coming out of Ukraine are in English and coupled with social media allows the truth of the events unfolding in real-time to reach a wider audience of people who only or primarily speak english.

 

[MacMadame]

I think the global reaction has less to do with Russia being the aggressor and more to do with Ukrainians being white European's. I think if they had invaded one of the Asian countries there would have been less of a reaction.

I'm not going to disagree with this but I think part of why the condemnation has been almost universal even from some peaceniks is that a lot of us see parallels to WWII and want to nip this in the bud before it gets that far.

How did the Russian Federation and Russian athletes react to this? Or Silence, or support for the actions of the country.

Silence, support, and also as much condemnation as they could do publicly without getting arrested. I appreciate those who have taken a stand because I know it's much harder for them than it is for me.

 

[Trillian]

This is most certainly possible, but I also think it's largely because much of the first-hand stories coming out of Ukraine are in English and coupled with social media allows the truth of the events unfolding in real-time to reach a wider audience of people who only or primarily speak english.

And to be pragmatic about it, certainly the reaction of the ISU and the skating community in general is influenced by the fact that Ukraine is an ISU member country with many well-established athletes and coaches throughout Europe and North America. So the ISU is not just taking action against one member federation, they’re also taking steps to protect and support athletes from another member federation.

Obviously being from an ISU member country doesn’t make anyone’s life more valuable, but it does mean that the ISU had no choice but to take some kind of action. Not suspending Russian athletes would have effectively meant excluding Ukrainian athletes instead. They had to take a side in this one.

 

[soogar]

I guess we'll have to wait until another ISU member destabilizes something, won't we?

You mean like the way the United States destabilized Latin America? I guess it doesn’t matter since many Latin American countries are fairly new members.

 

[coppertop1]

Let's play a game, it's casual "Spot the Russian apologist"

 

[airgelaal]

Silence, support, and also as much condemnation as they could do publicly without getting arrested. I appreciate those who have taken a stand because I know it's much harder for them than it is for me.

If we are talking about the fact that someone is afraid to speak out, this means that in Russia sport depends on the policy of the state. So this is a good reason to ban the federation.

 

[mtnskater]

Well now you're talking!

There really wasn't any way for Putin to garner any international support for the war with Ukraine - its cause is stupid and made-up, there is no justification or reason for it, and no country would ever sign up for this madness.

With all that said....after all the diplomatic maneuvering and coalition-building, the net result is half a million people are dead for a cause that was crap. "My son is dead but at least the US has free debates on telly", - said no Iraqi mother ever.

I could never live in a country I hated or that I thought was responsible for killing my child. Heck I was seriously ready to move out of the U.S. if Trump was re-elected…or at least go live in Europe for awhile. The Ukraine situation, and a clearer picture of what life is truly like in Russia or China, greatly renewed my deep gratitude for living here. And the fact that we democratically ridded ourselves of the orange one and didn’t have to hope for a military coup or some other drastic way to accomplish regime change. Nothing is demonstrating more clearly that absolute power corrupts absolutely than Russia or China. Democracy is super messy but I’ll take it..and remain a very involved vigilant citizen to keep it. Thats all we can do. I wish we could undo Iraq. A war I vehemently opposed. I am speaking up now against the Russian invasion of Ukraine just as I did Iraq.

 

[Nadya]

I think the global reaction has less to do with Russia being the aggressor and more to do with Ukrainians being white European's. I think if they had invaded one of the Asian countries there would have been less of a reaction.

One of the early CNN commentators said as much from the border, until she got smacked.

I mean compare this to the (wholly preventable) starving of Yemeni children who get close to zero coverage because too far, too brown, too unlike us, who knows why these brown people insist on killing each other, let them sort it out. Even though the starving and the killing is fueled by American technology and intelligence.

Ukrainians also have the advantage of being close to perfect victims. The world has a problem with feeling sympathy for the imperfect. Look at the coverage of the Palestinians. So much of the discourse around it brings back their links to Hezbollah, their hostility to the gays, their treatment of women, their corruption, and much of it is true, but the subtext is - see, these people deserve it. They had it coming. They should stay oppressed. I've never encountered any commentary that said - look, imperfect people, too, deserve to be free of oppression. Freedom and human rights isn't some graduation prize awarded by the big man only when you meet certain benchmarks. Idiots and assholes, too, have rights.

But Ukrainians haven't really done anything wrong, and they are much more sympathetic than, say, Palestinians, or little brown Yemeni children. It's easy.