ISU has cancelled 2021 Europeans, ISU Grand Prix Final, World Junior Synchro; Stockholm Worlds still on for now

[tony]

I don't know, it's not the country, but rather the people who are organizing this. Las Vegas went off well because they had the right people in place to ensure it'll be safe. I'm hoping Sweden will also have the right people in place. We can't assume before it even happens that it'll be a disaster.

You think the ISU isn't going to go above and beyond to make this event happen safely and that the organizers will not do the same? I don't really understand that idea either, as the ISU has another event going on right now and more coming up.

In other words, some of you don't trust anything having to do with Sweden because their cases are high, but you don't want your own countries generalized for the same ideas it seems. In any event, there are surely Swedes who have been following rules since day one, just as Americans and Canadians have. It's not as if they are going to allow the Russians to knock on each hotel room door and breathe on every other athlete..

 

[mjb52]

Sweden's cases are not on the rise at all. They are currently on the same decline that is evident in many places around the world. Hopefully it will stay that way, although of course there are never any guarantees. Stop looking at the headlines and start informing yourself. This has been the most irresponsible and often bordering on deliberately misrepresentative coverage of an issue that I personally have observed in my lifetime. I have never seen anything like it and I hope I never do again.

 

[tony]

Sweden's cases are not on the rise at all. They are currently on the same decline that is evident in many places around the world. Hopefully it will stay that way, although of course there are never any guarantees. Stop looking at the headlines and start informing yourself. This has been the most irresponsible and often bordering on deliberately misrepresentative coverage of an issue that I personally have observed in my lifetime. I have never seen anything like it and I hope I never do again.

Also very true - the numbers are shifting downwards. My county has about 2/3 the amount of cases as the entire country of Sweden. I think people got wrapped up in the herd immunity talk, but Sweden's numbers were actually low as hell all summer.

 

[anonymoose_au]

This has been the most irresponsible and often bordering on deliberately misrepresentative coverage of an issue that I personally have observed in my lifetime.

Seriously? Where do you live that 5,000 cases a day trending down to 3,000 is good news? (ETA: I guess it's good news technically, but that's still a lot of cases) When the Australian state of Victoria reached 700 a day they shut it down, fast. Now there's been relatively small numbers of cases since November when the hard lockdown ended. Christmas time in Aus was a bit of a stuff-up, but things were mostly kept under control, Victoria has just reached 24 days of 0 community transmission.

It's worth noting that the UK was having 700 cases a day at the same time as Victoria. They dilly dallied on taking action and the result is the cluster bomb that nation is in today.

Honestly I was wondering how most of the rest of the world managed to get into such trouble, but the attitudes shown by some certainly explains it.

It just seems really dumb, would a tough lockdown suck? Sure. But once you eliminate or control the spread things are 1000% better. At the Australian Open players and coaches won't have to be on tenterhooks and hoping their masks don't slip and they don't accidentally touch their faces, that's for sure.

 

[mjb52]

Do you think none of us had a tough lockdown? Seriously? Did Australia even ever have a national lockdown? I feel like you are all completely out of touch with the reality of how the rest of the world has been living for almost a year. From March to May/June almost three billion people were living in virtual police state conditions. Now you have much of Europe back in lockdowns that are worse in many countries than they were then. guess what. It doesn't work when you aren't at the literal back end of the world.

 

[tony]

Seriously? Where do you live that 5,000 cases a day trending down to 3,000 is good news? When our state of Victoria reached 700 a day they shut it down, fast. Now they've had 0 cases of community transmission for 24 days.

It's worth noting that the UK was having 700 cases a day at the same time as Victoria. They dilly dallied on taking action and the result is the cluster bomb that nation is in today.

Honestly I was wondering how most of the rest of the world managed to get into such trouble, but the attitudes shown by some certainly explains it.

It just seems really dumb, would a tough lockdown suck? Sure. But once you eleminate or control the spread things are 1000% better. At the Australian Open players and coaches won't have to be on tenterhooks and hoping their masks stay in that's for sure.

And here we get the holier than thou posts starting all up. Guess what? Your borders were closed, it takes forever to get to where you are from most places, and it’s pretty logical that it would easier to contain something on this level. Guess what also happens? People in the US and I’m sure many other countries can’t afford to not work, won’t get unemployment, and are at risk of losing it all if they didn’t stay going to their jobs every day or going back when things reopened. Some don’t want to follow rules, but for many this was the reality of the situation. So pat yourself on the back and boast about your own luck.

3000 cases a day is nowhere near the number that some people are trying to push out regarding Sweden. And yes, going down that much that quick is significant when people elsewhere try to make it seem like breathing in the Swedish air will instantly give one CV.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Do you think none of us had a tough lockdown? Seriously? Did Australia even ever have a national lockdown? I feel like you are all completely out of touch with the reality of how the rest of the world has been living for almost a year.

No we didn't, but that was because when this thing started our Premiers (the people who run our states) got onto it quickly. Borders were shut, schools closed and assistance given to those who couldn't work.

We might have had a few kooks saying "Oh it's just a flu, settle down, act normal." But luckily not many.

Victoria actually had the longest and toughest lockdown in the world. But they did what they had to do and kept the rest of the country safe.

As far as I can see a lot of the world is, ironically, taking the old Aussie expression of "She'll be right, mate" to heart. People in Europe going on summer holidays, people in the US refusing to wear masks...

My mind boggles that hotel quarantine for returning travellers wasn't a thing in most countries until recently. Now Australia's hotel quarantine system has had its issues, but at least there is one.

But we are indeed isolated down here in Australia so I probably do have it wrong. I just hope the Worlds goes safely and if there are any cases it won't end up in an outbreak or anything.

 

[mjb52]

What the living hell do you think has been happening in other countries? You might want to spend the next few hours reading about the restrictions other people have been living with. You are completely out of touch with reality.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I think our Australian friends just see how they were able to get control of things early and stay on top of it and wish it could have been the same for the rest of us in the world. I can see how mind boggling it is to them to see other countries struggling.

 

[Karen-W]

I think our Australian friends just see how they were able to get control of things early and stay on top of it and wish it could have been the same for the rest of us in the world. I can see how mind boggling it is to them to see other countries struggling.

I don't get that sense at all from any of the Australian friends commenting in this particular thread. Instead, I smell a distinct whiff of "if we can't do this then none of you should be able to either."

 

[anonymoose_au]

I don't get that sense at all from any of the Australian friends commenting in this particular thread. Instead, I smell a distinct whiff of "if we can't do this then none of you should be able to either."

I was thinking the opposite actually... "If we can do it, why can't others"?

I'm just surprised that Sweden had such a laissez faire approach to the Rona. Even when statistics showed that the countries around it (who took tougher precautions) were doing better both economically and case-wise they didn't change tack. So now they're looking at worse economic outcomes and far more dead and sick people. It's like lose-lose.

From a selfish point of view I was/am looking forward to Four Continents been held here, but if the vaccine doesn't work as well as hoped, we'll probably lose it because our Ice Skating Fed certainly can't afford an Aussie Open quarantine situation.

 

[skatfan]

It sounds like they really are going to try to have it. I hope it works out. I hope none of the participants gets COVID the way it’s happened on other sports.

The new variants spread is the one thing that might change the picture in the next few weeks. Last year’s worlds was cancelled because of local health conditions.

For the US athletes and coaches, doesn’t the warning about possibly not getting back into the country if health conditions warrant unless they are on “essential travel” apply to them?

 

[Karen-W]

I was thinking the opposite actually... "If we can do it, why can't others"?

I'm just surprised that Sweden had such a laissez faire approach to the Rona. Even when statistics showed that the countries around it (who took tougher precautions) were doing better both economically and case-wise they didn't change tack. So now they're looking at worse economic outcomes and far more dead and sick people. It's like lose-lose.

From a selfish point of view I was/am looking forward to Four Continents been held here, but if the vaccine doesn't work as well as hoped, we'll probably lose it because our Ice Skating Fed certainly can't afford an Aussie Open quarantine situation.

Wow... Now you're thinking 2 years out we're still going to be in this? I've seen the comments and speculation that Beijing 2022 won't happen but I'm a loss for words that we've jumped another full year beyond that into potentially cancelling events.

 

[MacMadame]

For the US athletes and coaches, doesn’t the warning about possibly not getting back into the country if health conditions warrant unless they are on “essential travel” apply to them?

I don't see how going to Sweden for what is effectively your job wouldn't be considered essential.

 

[skatfan]

I don't see how going to Sweden for what is effectively your job wouldn't be considered essential.

Us Figure Skating is saying it is leaving it to the athletes to decide whether they will attend Worlds so how can it be essential travel if it’s your own choice?

 

[aka_gerbil]

Wow... Now you're thinking 2 years out we're still going to be in this? I've seen the comments and speculation that Beijing 2022 won't happen but I'm a loss for words that we've jumped another full year beyond that into potentially cancelling events.

Australia has a track record of the ISU events get moved or canceled. Australia is clearly very cautious about YNW and while we all sure as heck hope this is behind us by 2023, none of us has a crystal ball. I can see why she feels cautious at this point.

I don’t understand how repeatedly jumping all over @anonymoose_au is helping.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Wow... Now you're thinking 2 years out we're still going to be in this? I've seen the comments and speculation that Beijing 2022 won't happen but I'm a loss for words that we've jumped another full year beyond that into potentially cancelling events.

Well I thought we were getting the 2022 4CCs not the 2023 ones so my mistake. (That's a long time to wait!)

It really does depend on how the vaccines go, I suppose. I wonder when we'll find out since it's too early to know yet.

 

[Karen-W]

Us Figure Skating is saying it is leaving it to the athletes to decide whether they will attend Worlds so how can it be essential travel if it’s your own choice?

Well, for someone like Nathan who has endorsement contracts, etc, I think that it would be considered "essential travel" even if the USFS is saying "we're leaving it to the athletes to decide." Someone like @Sylvia who is far more versed on how USFS funding works would be able to tell us whether or not a good/high Worlds placement would impact funding. I don't think it does but in the event that it did, even if the USFS left attendance at Worlds to each skater/team's discretion, I could make an argument that it is "essential travel."

 

[skatfan]

Well, for someone like Nathan who has endorsement contracts, etc, I think that it would be considered "essential travel" even if the USFS is saying "we're leaving it to the athletes to decide." Someone like @Sylvia who is far more versed on how USFS funding works would be able to tell us whether or not a good/high Worlds placement would impact funding. I don't think it does but in the event that it did, even if the USFS left attendance at Worlds to each skater/team's discretion, I could make an argument that it is "essential travel."

Karen, anyone can make an argument. I was looking for someone with actual information about what “essential travel” is. But thanks for giving us your opinion.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Karen, anyone can make an argument. I was looking for someone with actual information about what “essential travel” is. But thanks for giving us your opinion.

Would the US State Department website have the info? They usually post the travel advisories.

 

[Miezekatze]

I think our Australian friends just see how they were able to get control of things early and stay on top of it and wish it could have been the same for the rest of us in the world. I can see how mind boggling it is to them to see other countries struggling.

Everybody with access to a map, should be able to see that they (and New Zealand) are an isolated island in the middle of an ocean.

Besides the density of the population is not at all comparable. For example the biggest city in New Zealand still has a lower population density than my own whole STATE in Germany, which includes all the rural areas and the whole barely populated areas of the Black Forrest.

And I think some people here just have very unrealistic ideas about how borders are between European countries. Before Corona the whole point of borders in Europe was that they only exist on paper.

hotel quarantine for travellers can work with tourists.

But in Germany there's tons of people who cross country borders daily for work or because their life partner lives on the other side of a country border. Obviously they can't quarantine everyday for 2 weeks before starting their work as a nurse in a hospital or care home for the elderly. And you can't seperate people who might have lived in a steady relationship for years by hard borders. So a hotel quarantine only solves a miniscule part of travel.

 

[skategal]

But in Germany there's tons of people who cross country borders daily for work or because their life partner lives on the other side of a country border. Obviously they can't quarantine everyday for 2 weeks before starting their work as a nurse in a hospital or care home for the elderly. And you can't seperate people who might have lived in a steady relationship for years by hard borders. So a hotel quarantine only solves a miniscule part of travel.

That is a good example of what would get characterized as essential travel.

We have similar in Canada with the USA border and yesterday’s restrictions were for non-essential travel only.

I expect that the definition of essential travel in USA will probably be similar also.

 

[Miezekatze]

That is a good example of what would get characterized as essential travel.

We have similar in Canada with the USA border and yesterday’s restrictions were for non-essential travel only.

I expect that the definition of essential travel in USA will probably be similar also.

Germany has quite some exceptions by now, due to the fact that there are so many borders and so many people who work in another country or have parts of their everyday life tere, like you can travel for work (that includes athletes), visiting your life partner if he lives in another country, visiting close family, taking care of your animal if it lives in another country (there's a significant amount of people here who have their horse living in another country), ... all those things caused people quite a lot of stress in spring 2020 when borders were really strictly closed. Soem people couldn't see their life partner or parents or horse for like 2 or 3 months. I think it's probably hard to understand for some Australians how tight-knit countries are here. Going to another country here might mean you drive 500 meters and shop in a supermarket in France or Switzerland.

Now due to the mutations, Germany made stricter laws that forbid travelling from "mutation countries" to germany for non-essential reasons nearly completely (that's mainly Brazil, South Africa, Portugal, Great Britain and Ireland). There still are going to be exceptions (they might be a bit stricter), but due to basically all non-essential travel to Germany from those countries not being allowed, a lot of flights will get cancelled and it will make it harder to find travel options. AFAIK Sweden did something similar.

Therefor I think stricter travel restrictions due to countries trying to keep the mutations from spreading are the biggest risk for sports events in March, cause no countries here want to take risks before vaccinations take up speed. I think athletes will usually be allowed to travel anyway (obviously they can even travel to Australia with quarantining or Australian Open wouldn't happen), but the hurdles/quarantine risks might become more annoying and more athletes migth decide it's not worth the effort/risk at the moment.

Nonetheless, I think even Australians travel for not all THAT essential business reasons. The German version of "I'm a celebrity, Get me out of Here" is filmed in Germany this year at the moment, but some Australian guy who commentates on it actually did fly from Australia to Germany only this month to take part in it and I read the Australian authories gave him an exception for that.
I find travelling from Sydney, Australia to Cologne, Germany for taking part in a trashy live tv show not all that much more "essential" than travelling for sports. , so I think that high horse some people are sitting on is a bit unwarranted for.

 

[skategal]

Therefor I think stricter travel restrictions due to countries trying to keep the mutations from spreading are the biggest risk for sports events in March, cause no countries here want to take risks before vaccinations take up speed. I think athletes will usually be allowed to travel anyway (obviously they can even travel to Australia with quarantining or Australian Open wouldn't happen), but the hurdles/quarantine risks might become more annoying and more athletes migth decide it's not worth the effort/risk at the moment.

We only have 1 land border here (USA) but the majority of Canadians live within a 1 hour drive of the border.

It plays a huge role in the lives of many Canadians.

I don't think you can find a Canadian that doesn't have a family member living in the USA.

So it's been hard to have it as shut down as it has been since March.

Our air borders are definitely tighter than the land border as the land border needs to allow some essential movement back and forth.

I agree about the athletes.

I can see some athletes who know they are sticking around and competing to 2026 and beyond maybe not wanting to go to Worlds this year.

I expect most of the athletes who are planning to retire post-Beijing will go (P/C excepted.)

It is quite a process to go and compete at Worlds this year. For sure there will be some athletes who think it's not worth the effort.

I could also see Sweden cancelling Worlds at some point if they don't have enough resources to pull it off within the safe guidelines, or if cases blow out again. (I'm once bitten, twice shy after last year! )

It is definitely a lot of effort to do this even without the extra guidelines for crud. But I am glad they are giving it a try.

 

[olympic]

Did you read what I wrote (the second point)? They have been discussing that idea, because there's really nothing else to go off (besides videos) unless the floodgates are opened for every nation to send an athlete.

Yes. I did. I was emphasizing the silliness of the ISU not expanding the criteria for TES minimums due to a world-wide catastrophic event. I am happy they are seriously considering options.

 

[skatfan]

I find travelling from Sydney, Australia to Cologne, Germany for taking part in a trashy live tv show not all that much more "essential" than travelling for sports. , so I think that high horse some people are sitting on is a bit unwarranted for.

I hope this isn’t directed at my post, where I asked a question about a particular USA travel warning. I just wonder how it applies and can see both sides.

 

[olympic]

And here we get the holier than thou posts starting all up. Guess what? Your borders were closed, it takes forever to get to where you are from most places, and it’s pretty logical that it would easier to contain something on this level. Guess what also happens? People in the US and I’m sure many other countries can’t afford to not work, won’t get unemployment, and are at risk of losing it all if they didn’t stay going to their jobs every day or going back when things reopened. Some don’t want to follow rules, but for many this was the reality of the situation. So pat yourself on the back and boast about your own luck.

3000 cases a day is nowhere near the number that some people are trying to push out regarding Sweden. And yes, going down that much that quick is significant when people elsewhere try to make it seem like breathing in the Swedish air will instantly give one CV.

IDK. In relation to YKW, I think being Australian these days would be an advantage: A government that looks after its citizens and not sacrificing them for the stock market or economic numbers. But, that is a political discussion.

 

[tony]

Yes. I did. I was emphasizing the silliness of the ISU not expanding the criteria for TES minimums due to a world-wide catastrophic event. I am happy they are seriously considering options.

Doing that doesn’t benefit Knierim/Frazier at all as they don’t have official ISU scores yet. So there is very little option besides a video review IMO - at least they’ve figured that out, too.

As there were around 36 entries for men/ladies last year, I think they want to ultimately keep it around that as much as they can rather than open the floodgates by lowering them.

The Challenge Cup in the Netherlands is typically always the last chance for people to hit minimums, and I’m sure it’s going to be a huge roster this year of European skaters trying to get an entry for their nation/themselves.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If the ISU is ready to review videos for TES minimums, I don't know why they wouldn't start asap, particularly those skaters who've been names to their teams and as alternates. There's already GP video for a handful of them, and it's not as if they have to care about Nationals, scoring or calling if they use Nationals or Nationals qualifying videos for review. Many also have built-in replay. It can all be done by remote tech panels, overseen by a Tech Committee member via Zoom.

This would narrow down the number of skaters who would need to create a video to meet a minimum standard for consideration.

 

[Sylvia]

The Challenge Cup in the Netherlands is typically always the last chance for people to hit minimums, and I’m sure it’s going to be a huge roster this year of European skaters trying to get an entry for their nation/themselves.

Speaking of which, their C0vid19 Measures document (27 pages) makes for interesting reading and is linked from the ISU's event page: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...detail/12878/-/challenge-cup?templateParam=11

ETA that I've cross-posted the info & link in the newer thread.