ISU Congress & elections 2022

[On My Own]

In turn is this not an acknowledgement that they have no grounds and no ability to create grounds to exclude them and therefore by extension their athletes? I thought the whole point was they would vote on whether to introduce new regulations and if that was successful the delegation would be excluded?

I don't see how you've made this leap of logic. They've already announced their ban on the athletes (without bothering with any CAS ruling that might or might not take place in the future). The congress one was to be voted on before the session.

This seems to be a precautionary one, in case CAS sides with the Russia if they're excluded, which would nullify everything that happens in the congress. Going through that twitter thread, it seems the ISU lawyers tried to find grounds to ban them, but what they found wasn't sufficient. If they'd found grounds, no doubt they would have voted, with Russia and Belarus hopefully getting kicked out. If there aren't any grounds, and they'd ended up voting, and Russia and Belarus ended up getting kicked out, they would have appealed. So I guess this measure makes sense, and I hope everyone will just ignore their lobbying during the congress. It's just annoying to me that they get to participate, and that we need to keep considering that Russia might throw a fit.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

OK, Match TV. Let's see tomorrow. I think US and other clean federations might consider just leaving the ISU. ISU is not the only way the sport could be organized.

 

[clairecloutier]

In turn is this not an acknowledgement that they have no grounds and no ability to create grounds to exclude them and therefore by extension their athletes? I thought the whole point was they would vote on whether to introduce new regulations and if that was successful the delegation would be excluded?

The key thing here is the difference between the ISU Council and the ISU Congress.

The ISU Council is a small group of representatives who get elected by the member nations (i.e., national federations) to provide operational management for the sport. The ISU Congress is the meeting of all member nations, at which they vote on official policy and constitutional changes.

The ISU Council ruled earlier in its operational capacity to ban RUS/BLR athletes, following the lead of the IOC. The Council now seeks to add a provision to the ISU Constitution that would further codify their right to act in this manner, but in the meantime, they were following the public recommendations of the IOC. Russia has already submitted appeals to CAS to overturn the rulings in figure skating and in other sports, we will see what the outcome is. The idea here would be that the ISU Council made this decision in its operational role, for the benefit of the sport as a whole. It's unfortunate for Russia that the vote went against them, but they were theoretically still represented on the Council through the duly elected Council members (and also actually represented, through Lakernik's presence). It's just that the decision went against them.

Their participation at the ISU Congress is a more fundamental matter. Because if RUS/BLR were not allowed to attend the ISU Congress at all, then they would be deprived of their right to representation there as a member nation. (Again, they technically had representation in the ISU Council ban ruling; they just lost the decision.) So denying them admittance to the Congress was not a step that the ISU Council felt it could take outright. More than 20 other member nations asked for RUS/BLR to be excluded from the Congress, and the ISU Council was holding open the possibility that a vote might be taken on this when the actual Congress opened tomorrow. However, with this latest news, it sounds like it was concluded that it would just be too risky or unconstitutional to hold such a vote, so instead, it's been decided to just let RUS/BLR attend. (There were probably legal things going on behind the scene here.)

For further reference, see this statement from the ISU Council on Apr 24, and in particular the excerpt below:

Decisions of the ISU Council - International Skating Union

The ISU Council met on-line on April 24, 2022.

isu.org

3. The ISU Council acknowledged the feedback from over 20 ISU Members who urged the ISU Council to also decide that the ISU Members of Russia and Belarus will not be permitted to attend the 2022 ISU Congress or other official meetings and seminars etc., and that candidates from Russia and Belarus will not be permitted to stand for election at the 2022 ISU Congress for any position.

Considering the fundamental rights of ISU Members as laid down in the ISU Statutes and in Swiss Law, the ISU’s obligation to ensure that the interests of all ISU Members are observed and respected, and mindful of securing the validity of the upcoming 2022 ISU Congress, the Council concluded that no such Council decision shall be taken at this time. Such decision shall be subject to a vote by ISU Members at the ISU Congress. Depending on the Ukraine situation and possible motions from ISU Members in this respect at the time of the 2022 ISU Congress, the ISU Council will decide at that time if such a vote shall be conducted at the beginning of the 2022 ISU Congress.

 

[On My Own]

OK, Match TV. Let's see tomorrow. I think US and other clean federations might consider just leaving the ISU. ISU is not the only way the sport could be organized.

While I dislike the ISU and hope it happens eventually, I don't wish for the other federations to give Russia any reason to whine. I hope they just ignore them during the Congress, and vote against their proposed rules.

 

[ptvvibezz]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1533404278517338114

Moreover, the ISU legal team advised the Council of the risk that an exclusion of the Skating Union of Belarus, the Russian Skating Union and The Figure Skating Federation of Russia from participation in the Congress or the exclusion of their members from standing for election at the 2022 Congress will be challenged in Court. This could lead to a CAS procedure against the ISU with the potential risk that the decision could be found by CAS to be invalid with the consequence that all decisions made during the 2022 Congress, including the elections, would be considered as null and void.

 

[mella]

I don't see how you've made this leap of logic. They've already announced their ban on the athletes (without bothering with any CAS ruling that might or might not take place in the future). The congress one was to be voted on before the session.

This seems to be a precautionary one, in case CAS sides with the Russia if they're excluded, which would nullify everything that happens in the congress. Going through that twitter thread, it seems the ISU lawyers tried to find grounds to ban them, but what they found wasn't sufficient. If they'd found grounds, no doubt they would have voted, with Russia and Belarus hopefully getting kicked out. If there aren't any grounds, and they'd ended up voting, and Russia and Belarus ended up getting kicked out, they would have appealed. So I guess this measure makes sense, and I hope everyone will just ignore their lobbying during the congress. It's just annoying to me that they get to participate, and that we need to keep considering that Russia might throw a fit.

The key thing here is the difference between the ISU Council and the ISU Congress.

The ISU Council is a small group of representatives who get elected by the member nations (i.e., national federations) to provide operational management for the sport. The ISU Congress is the meeting of all member nations, at which they vote on official policy and constitutional changes.

The ISU Council ruled earlier in its operational capacity to ban RUS/BLR athletes, following the lead of the IOC. The Council now seeks to add a provision to the ISU Constitution that would further codify their right to act in this manner, but in the meantime, they were following the public recommendations of the IOC. Russia has already submitted appeals to CAS to overturn the rulings in figure skating and in other sports, we will see what the outcome is. The idea here would be that the ISU Council made this decision in its operational role, for the benefit of the sport as a whole. It's unfortunate for Russia that the vote went against them, but they were theoretically still represented on the Council through the duly elected Council members (and also actually represented, through Lakernik's presence). It's just that the decision went against them.

Their participation at the ISU Congress is a more fundamental matter. Because if RUS/BLR were not allowed to attend the ISU Congress at all, then they would be deprived of their right to representation there as a member nation. (Again, they technically had representation in the ISU Council ban ruling; they just lost the decision.) So denying them admittance to the Congress was not a step that the ISU Council felt it could take outright. More than 20 other member nations asked for RUS/BLR to be excluded from the Congress, and the ISU Council was holding open the possibility that a vote might be taken on this when the actual Congress opened tomorrow. However, with this latest news, it sounds like it was concluded that it would just be too risky or unconstitutional to hold such a vote, so instead, it's been decided to just let RUS/BLR attend. (There were probably legal things going on behind the scene here.)

For further reference, see this statement from the ISU Council on Apr 24, and in particular the excerpt below:

Decisions of the ISU Council - International Skating Union

The ISU Council met on-line on April 24, 2022.

isu.org

Thanks. I had missed/forgotten that the earlier communication indicated that the vote at the start of the Congress was a tbc. I thought it had been decided that is how it would be dealt with.

I do however think that the implicit acknowledgement that legally they think that action against the officials is on shaky ground does weaken/show a potential weakness in the decision already made reference the athletes and suggests there is a thread for RUS and CAS to pull at.

I assume the Votes on introduction of clearer guidance on when suspensions can happen will go ahead? Then what if that passes but RUS has already had representatives voted into officer they are suspended afterwards and new votes held. It all seems alv messy.

I stand by though that it feels pretty poor form for athletes to be being punished whilst officials get to have a voice and go on their jolly. Hopefully some sensible voting outcomes will regularise this promptly.

 

[Karen-W]

I assume the Votes on introduction of clearer guidance on when suspensions can happen will go ahead? Then what if that passes but RUS has already had representatives voted into officer they are suspended afterwards and new votes held. It all seems alv messy.

Per the ISU Constitution:

2. Validity of Constitution
The changes and amendments of this Constitution shall come into force immediately after the Congress unless otherwise decided by the Congress. However, a proposal may not be effective immediately upon adoption by the Congress unless so stated in the printed Agenda.

So, to answer your question, the Urgent Matter to change the General Regulations to allow for the suspension of Member Federations will not go into effect until the conclusion of the current Congress. Russia & Belarus can participate and lobby to their heart's content, but if they lose the vote on this and other issues then they WILL be suspended as MFs on June 11th.

 

[clairecloutier]

I assume the Votes on introduction of clearer guidance on when suspensions can happen will go ahead? Then what if that passes but RUS has already had representatives voted into officer they are suspended afterwards and new votes held. It all seems alv messy.

Yes, the vote on further codification of the ISU Council's right to act in regard to major geopolitical events will be voted on, it is among the urgent matters officially proposed to the Congress.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/28411-isu-communication-2481/file?dm_i=731E,6F8F,KEPUB,QYB8,1

As to your other question, the ISU Congress agenda seems to suggest that elections will take place after all the agenda items are voted on, however, I am not 100% clear on that point. In any case, I am not sure that any newly elected Russian officers would be immediately suspended. The most recent guidance/upholding of the RUS/BLR ban mentions "skaters" and "officials" being banned from competitions, but I suspect the latter refers to judges, referees, and technical specialists, not ISU officers.

https://isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/documents-communications/isu-communications/28303-isu-communication-2472/file?dm_i=731E,6F8F,KEPUB,QYB8,1

ETA: To me, the language is not clear that RUS/BLR could actually be suspended as member federations (as opposed to having their "rights" suspended?), but the language is a little unclear. In effect, it could amount to the same thing, along the lines of what @Karen-W said. Quote from the actual proposal:

Protective measures may include, without limitation, the temporary suspension of: a) the exercise of rights of ISU Members representing countries that caused or contributed to or are otherwise relevantly involved in the Extraordinary Event; and/or b) persons who are affiliated to the ISU Members referred to in sub-paragraph a) above and/or citizens of the concerned countries, to the extent they are participating in the ISU’s activities defined in this Rule (including, without limitation, persons who are elected or appointed as members of ISU Bodies/Commissions, athletes, Officials, support personnel); or c) any other measure that the ISU deems appropriate in light of the nature and circumstances of the Extraordinary Event.

 

[Karen-W]

ETA: To me, the language is not clear that RUS/BLR could actually be suspended as member federations (as opposed to having their "rights" suspended?), but the language is a little unclear. In effect, it could amount to the same thing, along the lines of what @Karen-W said. Quote from the actual proposal:

Protective measures may include, without limitation, the temporary suspension of: a) the exercise of rights of ISU Members representing countries that caused or contributed to or are otherwise relevantly involved in the Extraordinary Event; and/or b) persons who are affiliated to the ISU Members referred to in sub-paragraph a) above and/or citizens of the concerned countries, to the extent they are participating in the ISU’s activities defined in this Rule (including, without limitation, persons who are elected or appointed as members of ISU Bodies/Commissions, athletes, Officials, support personnel); or c) any other measure that the ISU deems appropriate in light of the nature and circumstances of the Extraordinary Event.

I'm sure the legal advisers for the ISU drafted the language to cover all of their bases and leave no wiggle room with regard to the suspension of rights & participation in ISU activities should one of their countries cause an "Extraordinary Event."

Honestly, I hope most of the federations give the Russian and Belarusian delegates the cold shoulder (and toss out Lakernik's proposal to increase the age max for ISU officials). It ought to make for some interesting viewing (one hopes) this week. We'll see just how strong the Russian politicking power is.

 

[clairecloutier]

Honestly, I hope most of the federations give the Russian and Belarusian delegates the cold shoulder (and toss out Lakernik's proposal to increase the age max for ISU officials). It ought to make for some interesting viewing (one hopes) this week. We'll see just how strong the Russian politicking power is.

What concerns me here is the "client federations" that look to RUS for skaters, coaching support, and probably more: GEO, KAZ, in particular, but I know there are others. I worry what kind of squeeze Russia could put on them ("Vote our way, or no more skaters for you!"). Or even a country like Australia, which has benefited from getting Russian pairs skaters. Or federations like the Baltics. Their political leaders may stand against Russia ... but their federations sponsored the Lakernik age proposal (WTH?).

 

[Karen-W]

What concerns me here is the "client federations" that look to RUS for skaters, coaching support, and probably more: GEO, KAZ, in particular, but I know there are others. I worry what kind of squeeze Russia could put on them ("Vote our way, or no more skaters for you!"). Or even a country like Australia, which has benefited from getting Russian pairs skaters. Or federations like the Baltics. Their political leaders may stand against Russia ... but their federations sponsored the Lakernik age proposal (WTH?).

Agreed. There's a lot of "soft power" to be exercised. GEO is an interesting one in particular because while they're the most clear, obvious beneficiary of receiving skaters who weren't quite good enough to make it in Russia, they've also taken very clear measures to move their skaters OUT of Russia, if at all possible. I'm more concerned about the likes of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia/Herzegovina, Bulgaria, China, Hungary, Indonesia, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, North Korea, Serbia, Turkmenistan, Turkey, UAE, Uzbekistan and Vietnam than I am about countries like the Baltic nations, Poland or Australia. Luckily, most of those countries only have one skating fed, so they have less delegates overall than the countries with two feds.

Just because the Baltic nations sponsored the Lakernik age proposal doesn't mean they still feel the same way - weren't the proposals due 4 or 6 months ago? Or, they could because they think that someone in their 70s is still young enough to serve as an ISU official.

 

[On My Own]

North Korea reminds me... Where are Ryom/Kim?

 

[Andrea82]

Agreed. There's a lot of "soft power" to be exercised. GEO is an interesting one in particular because while they're the most clear, obvious beneficiary of receiving skaters who weren't quite good enough to make it in Russia, they've also taken very clear measures to move their skaters OUT of Russia, if at all possible. I'm more concerned about the likes of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia/Herzegovina, Bulgaria, China, Hungary, Indonesia, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, North Korea, Serbia, Turkmenistan, Turkey, UAE, Uzbekistan and Vietnam than I am about countries like the Baltic nations, Poland or Australia. Luckily, most of those countries only have one skating fed, so they have less delegates overall than the countries with two feds.

Just because the Baltic nations sponsored the Lakernik age proposal doesn't mean they still feel the same way - weren't the proposals due 4 or 6 months ago? Or, they could because they think that someone in their 70s is still young enough to serve as an ISU official.

Bosnia, China, Hungary, Bulgaria, Indonesia, North Korea, Serbia, Turkey, Uzbekistan are both Figure and Speed skating members. So the vote of their only federation is counted twice.

I doubt North Korea will show up though given how they deal with Covid.

 

[clairecloutier]

North Korea reminds me... Where are Ryom/Kim?

Ryom/Kim haven't competed internationally since fall 2020, and there's been no news of them.

 

[ice coverage]

North Korea reminds me... Where are Ryom/Kim?

Ryom/Kim haven't competed internationally since fall 2020, and there's been no news of them.

FWIW, Ryom/Kim won their nationals (specific date not provided) for the 2020-21 season, per partial ISU compilation of national results from 2020-21. (See p. 20.)

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/26758-isu-communication-2448/file
(published Dec 2021)​

But yes , I would love to know how/what they are doing at this point.

 

[Karen-W]

So, the communication from the ISU Council was just their recommendation. Ukraine has submitted, with the support of Bulgaria, GBR and several other federations (can't remember which ones), a new proposal to ban Belarus & Russia's federations from participating in the Congress or standing for election. Now we have delegates from Ukraine, Belarus and both Russian feds speaking on the motion. This is happening during the Verification of Credentials. Gorshkov (that's who I assume is speaking on behalf of the RFSF) can shove it up his a$$ - claiming that they have no involvement in politics. Liar.
ETA - he's absolutely trying to pull Russian law into the equation and kind of trying to blackmail the rest of the ISU - mentioning that the ban says "all Russian citizens" which would impact all of the skaters that Russia has released, coaches, etc, since they still have their Russian citizenship. So, what? If those skaters are not living in nor training in Russia now and they have passports from other countries which they can use for travel (like the Kazakova/Reviya or Ryabova, for example) then what are they going to do? Send Putin's henchmen after them to bring them back to Russia and hold them hostage? Jerk.

 

[greenapple]

It was not Gorshkov who spoke on behalf of Russian figure. Definitely not a compelling or truthful argument presented.

 

[Orm Irian]

So, the communication from the ISU Council was just their recommendation. Ukraine has submitted, with the support of Bulgaria, GBR and several other federations (can't remember which ones), a new proposal to ban Belarus & Russia's federations from participating in the Congress or standing for election. Now we have delegates from Ukraine, Belarus and both Russian feds speaking on the motion. This is happening during the Verification of Credentials. Gorshkov (that's who I assume is speaking on behalf of the RFSF) can shove it up his a$$ - claiming that they have no involvement in politics. Liar.
ETA - he's absolutely trying to pull Russian law into the equation and kind of trying to blackmail the rest of the ISU - mentioning that the ban says "all Russian citizens" which would impact all of the skaters that Russia has released, coaches, etc, since they still have their Russian citizenship. So, what? If those skaters are not living in nor training in Russia now and they have passports from other countries which they can use for travel (like the Kazakova/Reviya or Ryabova, for example) then what are they going to do? Send Putin's henchmen after them to bring them back to Russia and hold them hostage? Jerk.

Not all Russian skaters who've been released by the Russian Federation to compete for other countries have citizenship for those countries yet. Anastasia Golubeva, for instance, doesn't yet have Australian citizenship. Those are the skaters and federations who are being threatened here.

 

[Karen-W]

Not all Russian skaters who've been released by the Russian Federation to compete for other countries have citizenship for those countries yet. Anastasia Golubeva, for instance, doesn't yet have Australian citizenship. Those are the skaters and federations who are being threatened here.

Yes, I realize that. And, of course, they have family still in Russia who haven't or don't want to relocate to another country.

As it is, the Ukrainian motions failed and RUS & BLR feds will be allowed to participate.

 

[Coco]

Maybe letting them participate is part of a deal to make progress on the KV doping adjudication?

 

[Karen-W]

Maybe letting them participate is part of a deal to make progress on the KV doping adjudication?

Now, that's some wishful thinking. I think we'll be lucky to see Russian candidates and proposals blocked here and then they'll be temporarily suspended after the ISU General Regs amendment is passed.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Those Russian officials are pretty arsey thinking they are welcome at the party.

 

[reut]

Those Russian officials are pretty arsey thinking they are welcome at the party.

Well, they are definitely more welcome than I thought they would be...

 

[Karen-W]

Well, they are definitely more welcome than I thought they would be...

I think they only were seated is because of the legal advisers' warning that keeping them out could subject all of the Congress decisions to a CAS appeal and, if the ISU lost, they'd be screwed. We'll see how welcome they really are once the Extraordinary Event proposal comes up for debate.

 

[misskarne]

I think the presence of the Russians is being viewed as a necessary evil rather than welcome.

Like others, I think the ISU is allowing the Russians and Belarussians at Congress to ensure that Congress cannot be legally challenged, tied up in courts, and possibly overturned. There is, thus far, nothing to stop them kicking those two countries out after Congress, which is what I suspect will happen.

 

[zebobes]

So the one surprising discussion that happened in the most recent livestream was that the Austrian federation wanted to to take a rule that applied to Grand Prixes about reverse starting orders, and wondered aloud why it wasn't possible for every competition to just happen in reverse order, how much simpler it would be in general. Apparently the starting order was a topic that caused a lot of debate and ideas, and then Evan Bates brought up the idea how a lot of skaters would like to be able to choose their starting order for the Free Skate, the competitors in first place should have first dibs to choose their preferred number within their warm-up group, then going on down the line of competitors.

Lakernik was rather amused by the idea, because he said that he once proposed this idea as a joke, so the fact that this actually gets brought up tickled him. In fact, after the stream ended, the person sitting next to Lakernik was also rather taken by the idea, and began talking about how it could cause a lot of interesting strategy for the skaters, and it can be an interesting thing for the audience as well to see what the athletes choose.

However, none of these ideas can actually be used yet because they aren't in an official proposal, so in a way it was kind of a pointless discussion, but it will be interesting to see if these ideas get codified some day. What do you guys think?

 

[Orm Irian]

So the one surprising discussion that happened in the most recent livestream was that the Austrian federation wanted to to take a rule that applied to Grand Prixes about reverse starting orders, and wondered aloud why it wasn't possible for every competition to just happen in reverse order, how much simpler it would be in general. Apparently the starting order was a topic that caused a lot of debate and ideas, and then Evan Bates brought up the idea how a lot of skaters would like to be able to choose their starting order for the Free Skate, the competitors in first place should have first dibs to choose their preferred number within their warm-up group, then going on down the line of competitors.

... What do you guys think?

How to make it even harder for good skaters with low rankings to overcome the psychological impact of skate order on judging, take 2729217364839020199.3?

 

[reut]

ISU 58th Ordinary Congress Phuket – 2022 Summary of day 1
https://www.isu.org/isu-news/news/1...phuket-2022-summary-of-day-1?templateParam=15

The Ukrainian Figure Skating Federation presented three motions concerning the possible exclusion of Delegates and/or Office Holders from Russia and Belarus from the 58th ISU Congress, the elections during the Congress and other activities. A number of ISU Members took the floor to make statements, discuss the motions and express their solidarity toward the people of Ukraine. The ISU Council also reaffirmed its solidarity with all those affected by the conflict in Ukraine and reiterated its condemnation of the Russian invasion of Ukraine in the strongest possible terms.

The three motions were voted separately via a secret ballot as requested by the ISU Members. Because the motion related to the rights of ISU Members a two-thirds majority was required for the motion to be accepted. The three motions did not reach the required majority and were rejected by Congress.

 

[Coco]

It would add some drama if skaters could pick their starting order for the FS/FD.

Having a computer randomly generate start orders for SP/SD could be possible, though. Wouldn't seem to take much more time than going reverse order. I like the top seeds going in later groups, but would appreciate some randomness to the start order.

 

[ice coverage]

... Now we have delegates from Ukraine, Belarus and both Russian feds speaking on the motion. This is happening during the Verification of Credentials. Gorshkov (that's who I assume is speaking on behalf of the RFSF) ...

It was not Gorshkov who spoke on behalf of Russian figure. ...

FWIW: Sergei Sviridov spoke on behalf of Russian figure skating federation, according to this post in Russian on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CedGl0oOZCn/ (Jun 6)​

(And my ears caught something like "Sviridov" when the ISU person gave him the floor.)

On the Russian federation site, Sergei Vasilyevich Sviridov is listed as an executive committee member from Moscow.

Состав Исполкома - Федерация фигурного катания на коньках России

Состав Исполкома И.о. президента Сихарулидзе Антон Тариэльевич Санкт-Петербург Вице-президент Богуш Вера Константиновна Самарская область Вице-президент Грибанов Владимир Иванович Республика Мордовия Вице-президент Кононыхин Сергей

fsrussia.ru