Interview with Nina Mozer

Yes, the issue was about shorter work day for women, which I said was a perk, and then you shifted it to equality, at which point I brought up another source of gender inequality-maternity leave.
Yes, i addressed equality as it relates to work hours. Just because you want to talk about maternity leave does not mean it was relevant to my point and example from my business in Russia. You're welcome to start a discussion about maternity leave, it's an interesting subject, but don't piggy back to me.

Anyway, by the look of things as you say, there might never come a time to see eye to eye on this, but we could both agree on a new worthy cause: the ERA to get ratified by all states and leave Russia to sort itself out.

That is not a new worthy cause for me to leave my present engagements for. I am an evil anti-communist capitalist, libertarian, social darwinist, with 3 business ventures in Russia, which will not sort themselves out without participation..... :D.... but please don't jump into Lethe on my behalf.
 
Wow, I wish someone will give me a mandated hour off work to go home and cook! Cause I love to cook for my family.
So let me get this: you are fighting to remove a benefit/perk designed for the women? And you are wondering why those who benefit from this are fighting you? Really? Well, how dare they to not want to be liberated by you!
Why don't you take it further-in the name of equality try to fight the maternity leave altogether? Two weeks should be more than enough, right?

Sorry, but any social program that makes a provision for women to leave work one hour work in order to cook entrenches the notion that cooking is women's work. It makes it that much harder for women to have a choice in the issue. Men can simply say, "No, you get the hour off, you cook."

I support your right to cook for your husband and children day in and day out, if that is your choice. It is not the choice of all women, however, and it may not be the choice of all men not to cook. The measure can thus not be construed as a step towards equality. In order to give ALL women (and men) the choice, the state needs to give the hour (or half-hour) off to both and to allow them to decide who cooks and when. Gender-based allowances are simply another form of discrimination no matter how altruistic or sympathetic they seem.

Your use of childbirth as an analogy for domestic cooking is both telling and troubling. Women doing the cooking is a social construct; it is something societies have come up with over time and it can be changed. Bearing children is, at this point of history, a biological fact. To make an argument for social constructs based on biological factors is to attempt to write in stone (or, more accurately, to write on the body) what is actually a social construction - one that not all women find "liberating."

Having said that maternity is a biological fact, the care of children is not. It is quite possible to find men who are better caregivers than women. Thus, in more progressive countries, the state mandates some leave for women to deal with the biological issues of childbirth, and then allows women and men to decide between themselves (or women and women, men and men) who will take that part of the leave related to caring for the baby. Again, if a woman wants both forms of leave, she can take them. More importantly, if she does not (and if the male does), she is not forced into it by those women whose preference it is.

There are, in fact, two strands of feminist thought that have emerged historically: sexual difference and sexuality equality. Your argument resembles the former but not in its most nuanced form. It is the version of feminism one finds more often in Europe, and which has a long history there. In sexual difference feminism, women argue for rights based on their biological difference from men. In the US, sexual equality feminism predominates: women fight for rights based on their similarity to men.
Although sexual equality feminists can learn from a well-articulated sexual difference argument, in my opinion the latter is a risky proposition. It is all too easy for the argument "women are different but equal" to mean that women are not actually equal to men at all. We have seen this happen with the disingenuous attempts of religiously conservative institutions to respond to feminism, for example. Their argument that women are equal but different traps some women in socially constructed roles they may not otherwise espouse.
 
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No, not the government. It's the husbands..... :D... or they will get a pretty younger mistress, and if the guy makes good money, there is a long line to be 2nd-wife, 3rd-wife... :D

There are plenty fish in the sea. :) I think you just having that kind of the Friday and grumping silly about your hubby or smth. :p

The rest is all very informative, although verbose. I hope it helps you in your work.;)

We have our representative office in Moscow, but I'm not directly responsible in hiring for our team in Russia. Our HR department was butthurt and puzzled about this one, they contacted me to confirm if the translation is correct:
" Так, п.1.3. постановления ВС РСФСР от 1 ноября 1990 г. № 298/3-1 «О неотложных мерах по улучшению положения женщин, семьи, охраны материнства и детства на селе (далее – Постановление) предусмотрено, что с 1 января 1991 г. для женщин, работающих в сельской местности, установлена 36-часовая рабочая неделя, если меньшая продолжительность рабочей недели не предусмотрена иными законодательными актами. При этом заработная плата выплачивается в том размере, что и при полной продолжительности еженедельной работы (40 часов). "

Can you translate the first piece in bold with your elegant English? :)

Basically women from small towns and villages in Russia have privilege to work 36 hours a week and still get paid as for 40 hours week. Every hour over 36 is overtime. I tried to explain our HR department that's probably because of bigger distances and complexity of commute or low frequency of public transportation in Russian villages. Residents of small suburbs around big cities have to spent more time to get to work by public transportation or car. It's like living in the small town Davis, CA and commuting via I-80 to work to Bay Area or Sac. If we would have this law here in California, women of Davi would be happy to come home earlier and still getting paid for regular 40-hours week. Heck, I want to be a Russian lady under harsh Russian laws (but still live in Cali, although def not in Davis), I won't mind if they think I have to go home earlier due to necessity "to cook borscht and protect my woman's rights, my family, maternity and childhood of my kids in rural area" and still paid for full week. :lol:
 
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nlloyd said:
Sorry, but any social program that makes a provision for women to leave work one hour work in order to cook entrenches the notion that cooking is women's work. It makes it that much harder for women to have a choice in the issue. Men can simply say, "No, you get the hour off, you cook."

Precisely.

nlloyd said:
In sexual difference feminism, women argue for rights based on their biological difference from men. In the US, sexual equality feminism predominates: women fight for rights based on their similarity to men [BOLD MINE].
Although sexual equality feminists can learn from a well-articulated sexual difference argument, in my opinion the latter is a risky proposition.

I get your point when you say 'their similarity to men' and concede that feminist standards are often male based, but the view is problematic in that is posits a male standard. So, I prefer the notion rights based on their personhood - personhood for women being a core goal of feminism.

Difference feminism invariably works against women. It supports beliefs such as women are more emotional than men, and men more rational than women, which has a host of negative implications and ramifications. It also supports a host of biological claims about gender differences, such as the claim that women have thinner corpus callosums than men, and are hence more scatterbrained. Women often embrace difference feminism, often because they are taught to do so, and find tidbits within it that help them to feel better about themselves (i.e. we are so good at manipulating men, we are superior to men because we are so much more nurturing and understanding). However, it invariably supports discrimination against women. And taking a close look at the science and research supporting claims of difference feminism reveals a lot of flaws and weaknesses.

One simple example of how difference feminism works against women is all the jokes that are made about PMS, and the whole notion of 'PMSing'. Essentially, the suggestion is that women function poorly or don't function at all for several days of the month, which is not the case for most women. The poor women who work the fields and produce most of the food in the developing world don't get time off because they have their periods. Nor do most mothers, unless they are rich enough to pay helpers.

Also, maternity leave/parental in Canada is 17-52 weeks and is tied into the Employment Insurance program. All the pregnant women I've known have pretty much had a full year of leave.Men and women are allowed to divide up a portion of parental leave between them as they choose.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...leave-basics-canada-vs-the-us/article4197679/

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/05/25/paternity-leave_n_7421960.html
 
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interesting. This thread turned into a competition which poster with USSR background understand better current Russia.

Sorry?????? would much rather hear from Russians how things are in Russia than from the rest of the world..I am grateful to everybody who is chiming in and supplying different aspects...This is the only way to make the world smaller...Communication
 
" Так, п.1.3. постановления ВС РСФСР от 1 ноября 1990 г. № 298/3-1 «О неотложных мерах по улучшению положения женщин, семьи, охраны материнства и детства на селе (далее – Постановление) предусмотрено, что с 1 января 1991 г. для женщин, работающих в сельской местности, установлена 36-часовая рабочая неделя, если меньшая продолжительность рабочей недели не предусмотрена иными законодательными актами. При этом заработная плата выплачивается в том размере, что и при полной продолжительности еженедельной работы (40 часов). "

Can you translate the first piece in bold with your elegant English? :)

I can do it on Saturday @ 4 pm. Will take me 15 minutes @ my rate is $ 715/hr.
 
I get your point when you say 'their similarity to men' and concede that feminist standards are often male based, but the view is problematic in that is posits a male standard. So, I prefer the notion rights based on their personhood - personhood for women being a core goal of feminism.

Agreed, this is a better statement of the goals of equality feminism. I was simply juxtaposing the two approaches these types of feminism take in relation to men.

Also, maternity leave/parental in Canada is 17-52 weeks and is tied into the Employment Insurance program. All the pregnant women I've known have pretty much had a full year of leave.Men and women are allowed to divide up a portion of parental leave between them as they choose.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...leave-basics-canada-vs-the-us/article4197679/

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/05/25/paternity-leave_n_7421960.html

Thanks for the articles. I was trying to find something along these lines.
 
Always liked Robin Hood
It's not about "robin hood", in ref to my reply to Alez.
He posted a clip from the Russian Federal Code of 1991, regarding labor laws for women in the agricultural/rural work areas. That law has been modified in 1995. Then lost its validity in 2002. He did not know that because he was playing and pulled which ever first thing popped up on the e-net. To translate it is what's called in Russian "to do an idiot's work". There fore the rate for fool's work is as stated... :D
 
It's not about "robin hood", in ref to my reply to Alez.
He posted a clip from the Russian Federal Code of 1991, regarding labor laws for women in the agricultural/rural work areas. That law has been modified in 1995. Then lost its validity in 2002. He did not know that because he was playing and pulled which ever first thing popped up on the e-net. To translate it is what's called in Russian "to do an idiot's work". There fore the rate for fool's work is as stated... :D

Thanks.

But you are wrong. N298/3-1 is still valid. Article 1.3 is still strong. They dismissed 1.4 & 1.5 and later 1.8. But 1.3 it's what it's all about. I actually had to pull one employment contract and look up myself. But thank you.
 
Sorry?????? would much rather hear from Russians how things are in Russia than from the rest of the world..I am grateful to everybody who is chiming in and supplying different aspects...This is the only way to make the world smaller...Communication
Yes, I do find the discussion about Russia interesting and informative, but I don't think the discussion needs to be a fight between who is the 'real expert', who visited there more frequently since they left x years ago, who left latest and therefore must have more updated information, how many business one has there now and therefore must know better how it works... Things like 'you don't know Russia men at all', 'you wouldn't have a chance with Russian men' and 'maybe you should visit Moscow because my information are more up to date' are in my view not bringing anything new to the table, just a bit of pi..ing contest about who the real expert is.
 
That is not a new worthy cause for me to leave my present engagements for. I am an evil anti-communist capitalist, libertarian, social darwinist, with 3 business ventures in Russia, which will not sort themselves out without participation..... :D.... but please don't jump into Lethe on my behalf.
LOL, I see-piggy backing on equality to meet the bottom line! ;)
 
Yes, I do find the discussion about Russia interesting and informative, but I don't think the discussion needs to be a fight between who is the 'real expert', who visited there more frequently since they left x years ago, who left latest and therefore must have more updated information, how many business one has there now and therefore must know better how it works... Things like 'you don't know Russia men at all', 'you wouldn't have a chance with Russian men' and 'maybe you should visit Moscow because my information are more up to date' are in my view not bringing anything new to the table, just a bit of pi..ing contest about who the real expert is.
so...not a competition but sometimes opposing views on the same subject depending on personal experience and diff.. reading materials (I am talking about newspapers etc..not gossip rags) perfect.....diff. types of men are found everywhere.....my husband is a car and bike nut and is very hardheaded but is a much better cook than I am, does do household chores and is the best father in he world...mr he man who waits on me hand and foot if I am really sick and cuddled and sang children songs to our babies to get them to sleep. He definitely believes in woman's equality in the workplace and respected my input there but at home thinks he needs to make all the decisions...go figure. His father was Lebanese and his mother Irish.
 
If you ask five people in the USA about their opinion about the role of women in the society and about various aspects of their culture, it is very likely that their opinions will not be the same. Their opinions will be influenced by their own upbringing, by the socio-economic situation of their family, by their age, their gender, their religious background and by many other factors. So I guess it is very likely that it is the same with Russia, if you ask various people from current Russia or from ex Soviet Union, they all will have various opinion. I do find the opinion interesting and I don't expect them to have the same opinions, but I don't think either of the posters need to try to persuade the other posters that his/her opinion is more valid than the opinion of other posters with the background from the same country. The same way as their opinion would be different if they still were living there, their opinions are different now. Because people are individuals and naturally have different opinions about things. I don't think there is a need to be telling each other that 'you don't know the culture' , 'when was the last time you lived there' and 'maybe it is time you visited there again and updated your information about Russia'.
 
If you ask five people in the USA about their opinion about the role of women in the society and about various aspects of their culture, it is very likely that their opinions will not be the same. Their opinions will be influenced by their own upbringing, by the socio-economic situation of their family, by their age, their gender, their religious background and by many other factors. So I guess it is very likely that it is the same with Russia, if you ask various people from current Russia or from ex Soviet Union, they all will have various opinion. I do find the opinion interesting and I don't expect them to have the same opinions, but I don't think either of the posters need to try to persuade the other posters that his/her opinion is more valid than the opinion of other posters with the background from the same country. The same way as their opinion would be different if they still were living there, their opinions are different now. Because people are individuals and naturally have different opinions about things. I don't think there is a need to be telling each other that 'you don't know the culture' , 'when was the last time you lived there' and 'maybe it is time you visited there again and updated your information about Russia'.

I disagree. I am American and I can say from first hand experience that majority of American women still believe that they are the most advanced in the world and everyone else is backward
 
I disagree. I am American and I can say from first hand experience that majority of American women still believe that they are the most advanced in the world and everyone else is backward
I agree with you that Women's Equal Rights have advanced in several ways. However, I've never viewed it as everyone else being backwards in the world.

It took activists like Elizabeth Stanton, Lucretia Mott and Susan B. Anthony to get the ball rolling before the 19th Amendment was passed. Because of those women, and more like them in other areas concerning Equal Rights, Women have had the right to vote since August 18th, 1920.

I'm a disabled citizen now, and I'm proud that there are Mobility Aids because of the Americans With Disabilities Act that give me a way to still be able to vote. I could absentee vote, etc. But I want to be able to go to the designated place I vote just like I did when I wasn't disabled. In 2012, I discovered that I couldn't because there wasn't a handicap ramp there to use. Since then, it was brought to the attention of our Police Jury and Chamber of Commerce. Now I can go vote with no problem. And Yes, it means a lot to me because there are still certain things I'll never be able to do again. It took a lot to get some of the laws passed, and that's why the Americans With Disabilities Act is so important.

There are still some State Constitutions that haven't changed, especially with the way some things are stated. Many state Constitutions still use language that is outdated regarding citizens with developmental disabilities. So, there is still a long way to go for people with Disabilities and the right to vote.

The Right to Vote: Disability Justice
 
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I agree with you that Women's Equal Rights have advanced in several ways. However, I've never viewed it as everyone else being backwards in the world.

It took activists like Elizabeth Stanton, Lucretia Mott and Susan B. Anthony to get the ball rolling before the 19th Amendment was passed. Because of those women, and more like them in other areas concerning Equal Rights, Women have had the right to vote since August 18th, 1920.

I'm a disabled citizen now, and I'm proud that there are Mobility Aids because of the Americans With Disabilities Act that give me a way to still be able to vote. I could absentee vote, etc. But I want to be able to go to the designated place I vote just like I did when I wasn't disabled. In 2012, I discovered that I couldn't because there wasn't a handicap ramp there to use. Since then, it was brought to the attention of our Police Jury and Chamber of Commerce. Now I can go vote with no problem. And Yes, it means a lot to me because there are still certain things I'll never be able to do again. It took a lot to get some of the laws passed, and that's why the Americans With Disabilities Act is so important.

There are still some State Constitutions that haven't changed, especially with the way some things are stated. Many state Constitutions still use language that is outdated regarding citizens with developmental disabilities. So, there is still a long way to go for people with Disabilities and the right to vote.

The Right to Vote: Disability Justice


I am happy about the advances made by women here, but my objection is to the assumption that women in other countries were backward when they had actually progressed more before us. Just the other day I read an article where 60 countries have elected a woman to the highest post while we are still not quite there. I know that while I was experiencing discrimination in graduate school and in my profession, women in many other countries were doing well. They were given responsibilities right out of school while we had to prove ourselves, or play corporate games which men invented. In the 1970s there were a very small percentage of women doctors while many other countries had 50 percent girls in medical school. I could go on and on but I have really gone OT so I must stop.

How did we get here from Nina Mozer?
 
How did we get here from Nina Mozer?

"Men are hunters, women are Keepers of the Homestead Flame".

She spoke about general publicly accepted gender-specific stereotype, although most likely Mozer did not really mean anything discriminative, but few forumers chose to have a very vivid imagination about it and decided to get offended. :) It's fashionable to take it to extremes nowdays in Asia, not any more in the States, I think we are so over it for almost a decade already. ;)
 
"Men are hunters, women are Keepers of the Homestead Flame".

She spoke about general publicly accepted gender-specific stereotype, although most likely Mozer did not really mean anything discriminative, but few forumers chose to have a very vivid imagination about it and decided to get offended. :) It's fashionable to take it to extremes nowdays in Asia, not any more in the States, I think we are so over it for almost a decade already. ;)

My question was rhetorical. You don't need to explain. I have read the entire thread ever since it was started.
 
If you ask five people in the USA about their opinion about the role of women in the society and about various aspects of their culture, it is very likely that their opinions will not be the same.

I disagree with that to a certain point, as gender stereotypes and norms are deeply rooted in the west as well - although there would be some exceptions. For example, the view that boys and girls have biologically-based differences - with regard to gender, not sex - is still pervasive. Women who've studied the social construction of gender tend to see it differently, and I always challenge the biological view.

Books like "Women and Men are from Venus" sell as well here as anywhere else. My mother-in-law recently bonded with a younger women over that book. So I promptly bought her "The Myth of Venus and Mars". :)

However, I do think there would be some differences of opinion among women of different ages and economic statuses. One of things that concerns me is that younger women with higher education and successful careers may be not be unaware of the inequities and discrimination are subject to. They may take for grant all the rights and freedoms that previous generations of women have worked hard for them to attain. They may not even be aware of the struggles that poor women and many low-income women face, nor sense any commonalies with them as women (i.e. all women may experience sexual assault).
 

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