"Ice Scope" by Fuji TV to measure figure skating jumps

Tinami Amori

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Japan’s Fuji TV debuted a new technology during the broadcast of the Japanese Junior Nationals called ‘Ice Scope’, which calculates elements like the height and distance of jumps performed (source).

https://www.inthelopodcast.com/news/2018/11/19/itl-weekly-figure-skating-news-roundup-20-26-november-2018

https://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2018/11/25/kiji/20181125s00079000447000c.html

https://twitter.com/doubleflutz/status/1066676099101290496

Russian article by a blogger on Sports.ru (contains more info than other sources, google translates)
https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/interval/2265049.html
 

Tinami Amori

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Excellent. Although this will bury Miyahara deep deep down.
I don't know... But i was thinking that if they will measure "height of a jump", they should take weight and height of the athlete as well, and include in the physics formula. But then it is dangerous territory...

Interesting that it is the Japanese that developed it, not thinking of Satoko... Whatever it is, it is a good start. i was hopping that some kind of sensors are developed to record and measure the jumps properly.
 

mag

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I don't know... But i was thinking that if they will measure "height of a jump", they should take weight and height of the athlete as well, and include in the physics formula. But then it is dangerous territory..
Very dangerous territory cause we all know now terribly short skaters are discriminated against ;)
 

Tinami Amori

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Very dangerous territory cause we all know now terribly short skaters are discriminated against ;)
oy.... i am not sure that's true.. short slender with all-muscles jump better; Sotskova and Kostner it was said to have difficulties jumping because they are "too tall"... Japanese top ladies are usually shorter than European/North American girls..
 

aftershocks

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Well, if they can come up with that, why not join with ISU to figure out a better way of creating technology and use of cameras to accurately and fairly assess URs? Not that many Japanese skaters have a rep for URs. But of course Satoka has gotten away with URs in the past. I do give her credit for working hard to try and jump higher, and her jumps are noticeably better this season. Plus, she's the best artist in the ladies field currently.

In any case, I'm not aware that ISU particularly values or rewards height and distance on jumps. :p
 

gkelly

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In any case, I'm not aware that ISU particularly values or rewards height and distance on jumps. :p
Officially they do, especially with the new rules that make "Very good height and very good length" the first positive GOE bullet for jumps, one of the mandatory ones for +4 or +5.

But it's not the only thing they value about jumps.
 

mag

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oy.... i am not sure that's true.. short slender with all-muscles jump better; Sotskova and Kostner it was said to have difficulties jumping because they are "too tall"... Japanese top ladies are usually shorter than European/North American girls..
I was being sarcastic. Probably shouldn’t try to be and it never comes across when you can’t hear the voice.
 

aftershocks

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Officially they do, especially with the new rules that make "Very good height and very good length" the first positive GOE bullet for jumps, one of the mandatory ones for +4 or +5.

But it's not the only thing they value about jumps.
On paper perhaps, and according to the rule book. FWIW, I think politics, buzz and skater rep factor in more heavily. If they were actually valuing height and distance on jumps, then Kaetlyn Osmond should have won the recent Olympics ladies gold medal. :)

And a response that the new rules weren't in effect yet, is just baloney, or a ham sandwich with gobs of cheese. ;)
 

gkelly

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On paper perhaps, according to the rule book. I think politics, buzz and skater rep factor in more heavily. If they were actually valuing height and distance on jumps, then Kaetlyn Osmond should have won the recent Olympics ladies gold medal. :)
1) Jumps aren't everything, and height and distance aren't everything that's valued in jumps.
Just because other things are valued as well does not mean that height and distance are not valued.

2) The rules I mentioned are new as of this past summer, so any increase in this emphasis would not have been in effect at the last Olympics.
 

aftershocks

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^^ Ha, ha, you're quick @gkelly, but I already anticipated your response before you posted and I saw it. :lol: The new rules changes have nothing to do with the fact that the 2018 ladies Olympic gold medal was between only two skaters and everyone knew that heading into the Olympics. When Osmond had the opportunity early in the season to show she had competitive grit and consistency against Zagitova and Medvedeva, she failed to do so, but her talent, her strong programs, and her fed's powerful standing kept her high in the running as a top contender. And by the Olympics, she bucked up her courage and performed well to be slotted into the third spot, regardless of her superior jumping abilities having it all over Med and Zag, and even her PCS should have been scored way higher than theirs on composition and interpretation. -- Again, the fact that Osmond's obvious superior jumping skills and artistic skills weren't correctly judged better than Med & Zag at the Olympics has everything to do with politics and nothing to do with the fact that the new rules weren't in place yet. *

ETA *Ironically, it's certainly possible that some powers within the skating community advocated for the rules changes in part to try and ensure that rewards are given where rewards are due, but the new rules mostly work on the judges' behalf, not always the skaters (unless you are an uber-favorite of the judges). As we have seen this season, the ISU wants to uphold how they rewarded Zagitova with an Olympic gold medal largely because of the hype and buzz, in addition to her consistency. She was definitely very athletic and consistent, and the bells and whistles worked. But I think we are seeing this season many of her weaknesses becoming more apparent as she has grown and her poor technique isn't working as well; her weak pumping cross-overs are cringeworthy. Yet her PCS scores are still out-the-wazoo.

How you see and describe the scoring system may be the purported intention, but the reality is something else again, as are the politics in this sport. The recent GP events were simply gobsmacking in the scoring inconsistencies across disciplines and events. Scores are significantly based on how skaters are perceived and how powerful their feds are. The way judges continue to score PCS marks within ranges that often make no sense in proportion to various skaters' actual presentation skills is rather astounding at times, but business as usual. The new wrinkle with -5 to +5 GOE gives judges so much power to juggle placements, it's simply :eek: :drama:

Of course performances do matter, because sometimes a great performance vs not so good performances upsets the applecart of where the judges clearly intended skaters to be placed. The way some skaters are given high PCS who do not have very good performance and musical skills is appalling. The way uber favorites are held up when they make mistakes is very interesting. The way some skaters are picked apart with fine tooth combs and brought down in the scoring vs some skaters not receiving negative GOE for similar errors is very revealing. The new rules seem largely intended to give enormous power to the judges, which is want the ISU wants. I know this view is outlier and politically incorrect. I also know that many judges try to adhere to the impossible scoring system rules that are in place. But for fans and upholders of the status quo to act like politics and perception doesn't play a huge role in judging is wishful thinking.

When all is said and done, interestingly the placements often end up overall about where they seemingly should be, but with some glaring exceptions IMHO. And always, the PCS range scoring makes no sense in a number of instances. It is what it is, and I don't see any remedies coming under the ISU's antiquated stranglehold.

Bottom line, this new equipment developed by Japan fed is interesting, but I don't see it solving any of the pressing needs and complicated problems facing the sport.
 
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nimi

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Karen-W

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What would be truly interesting to me is developing 3D technology that determines the pre-rotations and under-rotations precisely. Take that out of the technical panel's control and a lot of the kvetching we get about certain skaters jumps being chronically over-scrutinized while other skaters' jump issues are ignored would go away.
 

aftershocks

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^^ Wow, robots, huh! :p I think they could actually more-so use experts on the judging panels who are skilled in analyzing performance, choreography and movement qualities. Robots maybe can judge mistakes visually, but they can't judge performance skills.

These new technologies seem more like attention-gathering hype. I think more attention should be paid to the lack of adequate camera angles for judges, and to exploring new boot-manufacturing advancements to aid the skaters.
 
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aftershocks

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What would be truly interesting to me is developing 3D technology that determines the pre-rotations and under-rotations precisely. Take that out of the technical panel's control and a lot of the kvetching we get about certain skaters jumps being chronically over-scrutinized while other skaters' jump issues are ignored would go away.
Interesting idea. But the kvetching might increase if the technology actually judges all skaters fairly across the board. ;) As it is now, not everyone is scrutinized with a fine-tooth comb. More attention is paid to skaters with a so-called rep for URs. And as we have seen, sometimes landings that are too close to call often go against skaters, while some skaters are not even reviewed.

The history of calling URs is interesting. The intense scrutiny surrounding rotations slowly came about because of the quad revolution in men's skating, and the advent of difficult 3/3s and triple-axels in the ladies discipline.
 

Karen-W

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Interesting idea. But the kvetching might increase if the technology actually judges all skaters fairly across the board. ;) As it is now, not everyone is scrutinized with a fine-tooth comb. More attention is paid to skaters with a so-called rep for URs. And as we have seen, sometimes landings that are too close to call often go against skaters, while some skaters are not even reviewed.
Well, my thought would be to use the technology on every skater and have the computer system automatically note URs and pre-rotations, same with edge calls, and jump downgrades. That takes the decision making and scrutiny out of the tech panel's control entirely. It could also reduce the review time necessary and speed up the scoring process which would make the events go faster. :)
 

aftershocks

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Well, my thought would be to use the technology on every skater and have the computer system automatically note URs and pre-rotations, same with edge calls, and jump downgrades. That takes the decision making and scrutiny out of the tech panel's control entirely. It could also reduce the review time necessary and speed up the scoring process which would make the events go faster. :)
Sure, but who knows how that would actually work. Developing such technology might be easier said than done. And as I mentioned, there are other pressing problems that I think more attention should be paid to, but distracting hype wins every time. Right now, better camera angles for the actual judges seems more important.
 

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