Ermolina's interview with Mishin `A programme without the quads is empty'

[MAXSwagg]

I think John Curry had more transitions in 1976 than Shoma has today, so I find that comparison very, very funny.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I also thought that it was telling (and obvious after he said it) the Russians don't look to choreograph brilliant/epic programs, but rather to build winning programs. Easily seen.

And that's been working well for them under IJS, aside from Plushenko.

 

[caseyedwards]

It was so obvious! Lysacek lost to a quadless Chan at 2009 4CC and then took them out and then beat Chan at 2009 worlds. It's not rocket science. To win was to be quadless. End of story.

 

[Bellanca]

No one can be compared to the great John Curry.

Also, I am beginning to think that quad is the new dirty word...

 

[misskarne]

The scandal was how close Plushenko came to winning.

There were several scandals about Vancouver: that Lysacek was so close to Plushenko after the SP when Plushenko's lead should have been much bigger; the behaviour of an American judge, who wrote to other judges ordering them to mark Plushenko down prior to the Games; and the behaviour of the American commentators, for whom Lysacek could have fallen eight times and still should win over Plushenko.

Plushenko could have easily won the 2010 Olympics if he had constructed his programs for the IJS. However, in 2010 he was still calling the system "new"

You mean, like the American commentators were still doing by Sochi?

 

[Jammers]

Watching some of Mishin's skaters and their programs over the years maybe this should be paraphrased "a program without transitions is empty".

 

[kwanfan1818]

There were several scandals about Vancouver: that Lysacek was so close to Plushenko after the SP when Plushenko's lead should have been much bigger; the behaviour of an American judge, who wrote to other judges ordering them to mark Plushenko down prior to the Games; and the behaviour of the American commentators, for whom Lysacek could have fallen eight times and still should win over Plushenko

That judge was responsible for training judges in PCS, which they clearly and woefully ignored by rewarding Plushenko with TR scores over 6. Or can't you read the criteria.

And I forgot that you were in Vancouver and could see Lysacek's speed, power, and ice coverage, while Plushenko was in the bottom third of each, a shadow of the Plushenko in terms of speed and power from the Torino cycle , and you could still post that.

Oh, wait...

 

[bardtoob]

You mean, like the American commentators were still doing by Sochi?

Absolutely YES!

... Not that explaining the IJS would have explained the inflated PCS that started occurring in Sochi during the team event and screwed up the IJS. Should I remind you that a judge from Sochi was demoted after stating (s)he could not and had not read the IJS rules.

 

[caseyedwards]

That judge was responsible for training judges in PCS, which they clearly and woefully ignored by rewarding Plushenko with TR scores over 6. Or can't you read the criteria.

And I forgot that you were in Vancouver and could see Lysacek's speed, power, and ice coverage, while Plushenko was in the bottom third of each, a shadow of the Plushenko in terms of speed and power from the Torino cycle , and you could still post that.

Oh, wait...

By singling out Plushenko for lower marks Inman violated all standards of ethics and fairness!! His job is was not to work for lysaceks victory or against anyone! He should have been banned for life! Isu hired him to train judges on IJS and he would give his interpretion of the rules but reading the criteria it's totally different than what Inman would say! The written word is very vague and unclear and open! Transition is any movement between any technical element using blade or upper body!! It's very open to interpretation and Inman would say to deserve highest scores a skater must do a complex movement into a jump and only a complex movement Into a jump deserves highest scores but isu rules clearly say transitions can be any movement into any technical element! That's why Plushenko in rushing to add transitions added a movement after a jump to his short program!! Remember the move after the triple axel?!?!?

Plushenko will always be much better In Vancouver than Turin. In Turin he doubled a jump and was listless in his lp. No comparison Plushenko was better in jumps and program in Vancouver and only man in Vancouver to do quad Combos triple axels level 4 spins ! Best in Vancouver forever l! But if he wanted to win should really have done every single thing differently!! Reflected the judge love of quadlessness.

Watching some of Mishin's skaters and their programs over the years maybe this should be paraphrased "a program without transitions is empty".

He has clearly heard this and changed it! It's not the reverse. It's too coincidental!

 

[Dobre]

This is where Mishin really makes no sense. What recent developments in ice dance show this? Paul Poirier competing at Canadian Nationals in singles when he was younger? Annabelle Morozov switching to dance? Fedor Andreev's adventures with Khokhlova?

The three medal-winning teams at 2017 Worlds have been together since childhood and only ever competed in ice dance (barring maybe local comps when they were kids). So have Bobrova/Soloviev, and Davis and White also teamed up very young - though Charlie did also compete in singles up to the junior level.

LOL. I assume he means Lozko & Pitkeev teaming up. But they have proven nothing, skated at nothing, and won nothing.

I just chalked this comment up to Mishin not being a dance coach. It's like expecting a Russian coach to provide insight on Japanese figure skating or expecting a Japanese coach to provide insight on Russian figure skating. If you want insight on dance, you ask a dance coach. Mishin can provide insight on singles skating. He can provide misdirection on singles skating as well, but he's a politician. As long as one keeps that in mind, you can probably find the truth amidst the misdirection. I remember thinking of him as this terrifying force back in the late 1990's.

The first time I saw him live, though, was the 2001 Worlds. And what I will never forget was this moment during Plushenko's exhibition practice. The audience was invited to the gala practice (which doesn't happen that often, I've learned). Still, there weren't very many of us because it was a long week with long days. The crowd was largely all in one or two lower sections. And Plushenko came up into the crowd & danced that Sex Bomb program (which I had never seen before at that point in time), and then gave his jacket to Mishin, who put it on and wore it in the K&C area. ROTFL, I never thought of Mishin as terrifying again.

 

[MAXSwagg]

That judge was responsible for training judges in PCS, which they clearly and woefully ignored by rewarding Plushenko with TR scores over 6. Or can't you read the criteria.

And I forgot that you were in Vancouver and could see Lysacek's speed, power, and ice coverage, while Plushenko was in the bottom third of each, a shadow of the Plushenko in terms of speed and power from the Torino cycle , and you could still post that.

Oh, wait...

That's just one component. Plushenko crushed Lysacek in performance, choreography, and interpretation (whereas Evan was as dull as his black costumes...like watching paint dry). The real travesty was that Takahashi was not comfortably ahead of BOTH of them in components, in both the SP and the FS.

 

[Alilou]

That's just one component. Plushenko crushed Lysacek in performance, choreography, and interpretation (whereas Evan was as dull as his black costumes...like watching paint dry). The real travesty was that Takahashi was not comfortably ahead of BOTH of them in components, in both the SP and the FS.

I was in the arena, in the front row. Lysacek was good and his performance and choreo were way better than Plushy. Plushenko was slow and his spins were painful. I completely agree about Takhashi - especially the SP. He was so robbed!

 

[misskarne]

That judge was responsible for training judges in PCS, which they clearly and woefully ignored by rewarding Plushenko with TR scores over 6. Or can't you read the criteria.

Let's cut the crap. If that had been a Russian judge making those comments about an American skater, there would have been banner headlines, massive investigations, global outcry, hey, maybe even a second gold medal.

Because it was an American judge making a comment about a Russian skater - a skater who was already polarising because of his enormous talent and ability, a skater who had just been successfully cast to the general public by the NBC as the "Evil Communist Russian", it did not generate the censure it should have had.

 

[Bellanca]

It's a free-for-all in here.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Plushenko crushed Lysacek in performance, choreography, and interpretation (whereas Evan was as dull as his black costumes...like watching paint dry).

Except he didn't. Plushenko was slow -- not as slow as Lambiel, who was glacial, but at least Lambiel was interesting to watch -- and lacking power. Without those two things, I'd opt for the paint. Had Plushenko had another three-six months, he would have had the power back to his skating.

I was rooting for Takahashi all the way, because I knew Kozuka had no chance at a medal, followed by Chan, Abbott, Weir (even though I hated his jumping under Zmievskaya) and then the guys I liked and for whom I was rooting for a Top 10, however unlikely, like Schultheiss, Brezina, Verner, Amodio, Bacchini, Pfeiffer, Ten. But Takahashi deflated part of the way through, which was really disappointing to watch.

Lysacek wasn't even on my radar, although, a friend whose husband is Russian and likes figure skating said to her, "You know, the only reason Plushenko agreed to come back was because he was guaranteed gold by the Fed, but looking at the top Men from 2009 -- Joubert, Chan, injured and not back, and Lysacek, a mess at US Nationals -- they don't have to worry about wasting any favors for him." I remember telling her, "Sarah Hughes was also third at US Nationals before she won the Olympics," but I didn't think there was a chance in hell that Lysacek would pull it off.

Because it was an American judge making a comment about a Russian skater - a skater who was already polarising because of his enormous talent and ability,

And was a shadow of the skater who won in Torino. Which, because you were there, you already know.

Oh, wait...

By singling out Plushenko for lower marks Inman violated all standards of ethics and fairness!!

You mean the skater, who, when assumed retired, was the "What Not to Wear" example in ISU training?

 

[caseyedwards]

Except he didn't. Plushenko was slow -- not as slow as Lambiel, who was glacial, but at least Lambiel was interesting to watch -- and lacking power. Without those two things, I'd opt for the paint. Had Plushenko had another three-six months, he would have had the power back to his skating.

I was rooting for Takahashi all the way, because I knew Kozuka had no chance at a medal, followed by Chan, Abbott, Weir (even though I hated his jumping under Zmievskaya) and then the guys I liked and for whom I was rooting for a Top 10, however unlikely, like Schultheiss, Brezina, Verner, Amodio, Bacchini, Pfeiffer, Ten. But Takahashi deflated part of the way through, which was really disappointing to watch.

Lysacek wasn't even on my radar, although, a friend whose husband is Russian and likes figure skating said to her, "You know, the only reason Plushenko agreed to come back was because he was guaranteed gold by the Fed, but looking at the top Men from 2009 -- Joubert, Chan, injured and not back, and Lysacek, a mess at US Nationals -- they don't have to worry about wasting any favors for him." I remember telling her, "Sarah Hughes was also third at US Nationals before she won the Olympics," but I didn't think there was a chance in hell that Lysacek would pull it off.


And was a shadow of the skater who won in Torino. Which, because you were there, you already know.

Oh, wait...


You mean the skater, who, when assumed retired, was the "What Not to Wear" example in ISU training?

Yes Inman made the isu video with Plushenko as the model of an undeserving and Overscored Olympics winner but once that video was edited to remove him because he was competing Inman should have stopped talking about him! But he didn't stop talking about him! He was campaigning for him to lose and that was unacceptable and he shouldn't have and he needed to be banned for life.

You keep saying pluhshenko was somehow impressive in Turin but he really wasn't. He won but he was a shadow of the skater who won 2003 and 2004 worlds and still recovering from his 2005 injuries and surgeries and was much much better in 2010 and there's no comparison! He was doubling jumps in Turin and listless in his long program while in Vancouver he was Plushenko the entertaining legend!!

In 2010 us nationals lysacek fell on his UR quad and then immediately took it out again!

Let's cut the crap. If that had been a Russian judge making those comments about an American skater, there would have been banner headlines, massive investigations, global outcry, hey, maybe even a second gold medal.

Because it was an American judge making a comment about a Russian skater - a skater who was already polarising because of his enormous talent and ability, a skater who had just been successfully cast to the general public by the NBC as the "Evil Communist Russian", it did not generate the censure it should have had.

Exactly! And maybe even IJS would have been abolished!

 

[aftershocks]

Skaters who thought they could compete with quads by artistic brilliance took the wrong train. Jason Brown comes to mind.

What gives you the impression that Jason 'thought' that way though? Such simplistic viewpoints.

Moreover this interview in many places reads like a very poor imitation of Ivana Komova's hysterical cheese. In fact, I'd love to read Komova's version of this Q&A. "You must NOT forget the huge numbers of [name drop] skaters I instructed how to jump with my magick techniques."

Mishin is of course a great coach, but some of his responses are a bit defensive and provocative. But, I guess that's figure skating.

ETA:

But right after the Olympics both Lysacek and Chan ran to learn the quads.

Does Mishin recall why Chan 'ran to learn quads.' And correction: Lysacek did not have to run to learn quads, he had already performed quads successfully in competition, so it wasn't as if he needed to start training them for the first time. At that point, Lysacek was not necessarily planning to compete again eligibly anyway.

 

[kwanfan1818]

You keep saying pluhshenko was somehow impressive in Turin but he really wasn't. He won but he was a shadow of the skater who won 2003 and 2004 worlds and still recovering from his 2005 injuries and surgeries and was much much better in 2010 and there's no comparison! He was doubling jumps in Turin and listless in his long program while in Vancouver he was Plushenko the entertaining legend!!

I wasn't in Turin, but people I know and trust were, and they said he was fast and powerful there, even if his ice coverage was typical of programs other than St. Petersburg 300, which I saw several times and was the most impressive program I'd seen him do live.

What was impressive about him in Turin was his single-mindedness about not letting it slip away like it did in SLC. It was a champion's mentality, and he was getting to the top of the podium. While IJS had been in existence for several years, it had only been used at one championship before Turin, and it was primarily a 6.0 competition.

In Vancouver, he was slow and had no power in the arena. However, the facial expressions and the arms made good TV.

In 2010 us nationals lysacek fell on his UR quad and then immediately took it out again!

Of course he did: he was still recovering from a broken bone in his foot and the impact it had on his training.

 

[aftershocks]

... And, yes, there was a lot of athletic innovation in pairs that came out of his pairing with Moskovina (Bratus), including incorporating the Beillmann spin into a pairs program.

Do you remember those days that well, and the resultant effects? I think Moskvina and Mishin have impacted the sport mainly via coaching. Moskvina definitely influenced and pioneered pairs innovations. Mishin is chiefly known for his contributions as a technical coach for singles skaters.

The thing about figure skating is that there are many influences and impacts that during various eras were not well-documented. Before video technology, there was only the anecdotes, published stories, conflicting memories, myths, and the record books. With video technology we can at least have fingertip access to old videos and tv clips, but the expert historians and statisticians are sorely lacking. IOW, it's not always clear or set in stone who did a move first (although with jumps in competition, firsts are easier to trace). Those of us who've followed the sport for years may have good recall, but the vast relationships, influences and overlapping interconnections are not well-documented, and thus not always necessarily completely accurate, based on recall or clips from old performances.

Meanwhile, at the very least, thanks to fans like manleywoman and @N_Halifax for attempting to improve our understanding of the historical dynamic through the invaluable contributions they have provided, with gifts that keep on giving.

@kwanfan1818, Dai Takahashi was most definitely robbed of first place in the sp at 2010 Olympics, but that result was political. And then Dai wasn't as strong in the fp. Come to think of it, Johnny Weir stuck in 6th place was also political. U.S. fed had all their meager political weight behind Lysacek, although it was figured that Abbott could place well if he even came near the performances he had put out at U.S. Nationals (4/3 and 3/3/2 combos). It was not to be for Abbott, but U.S. fed was still mostly taking Abbott for granted, whilst not carrying a whit about JWeir, whose talent they only begrudingly rewarded post-2007.

I agree with you that Zmieskaya did JWeir no favors tinkering with his jump technique. Don't try to fix what ain't broke. Still Johnny should have placed higher than sixth. In the end, he was happy to be there and to perform so well, regardless of the judging.

 

[bardtoob]

Do you remember those days that well, and the resultant effects? I think Moskvina and Mishin have impacted the sport mainly via coaching. Moskvina definitely influenced and pioneered pairs innovations. Mishin is chiefly known for his contributions as a technical coach for singles skaters.

I am not old enough to remember the competitions but I knew it was Ronina/Ulanov and Bratus/Mishin who were pushing the athleticism that was a sharp contrast with Belusova/Protopopov, and in 1968 and 1969 these pairs, along with Zhuk/Gorelik, were trading positions on National, Euro, and World podiums. I researched it because I always wondered why Belusova/Protopopov were not on the 1972 Olympic Team and teams like Rodnina w/ partner became the forefront of pairs for the next decade.

USSR Championships
------------------------------
1966 Riga
Ludmila Belousova / Oleg Protopopov
Tatiana Zhuk / Alexander Gorelik
Tamara Moskvina / Alexei Mishin

1967 Kuibyshev
Ludmila Belousova / Oleg Protopopov
Tatiana Sharanova / Anatoli Evdokimov
Tamara Moskvina / Alexei Mishin

1968 Voskresensk
Ludmila Belousova / Oleg Protopopov
Tamara Moskvina / Alexei Mishin
Irina Rodnina / Alexei Ulanov

1969 Leningrad
Tamara Moskvina / Alexei Mishin
Ludmila Belousova / Oleg Protopopov
Irina Rodnina / Alexei Ulanov
----------------------------------

European Championships
----------------------------------
1968

Västerås

Liudmila Belousova / Oleg Protopopov

Tamara Moskvina / Alexei Mishin

Heidemarie Steiner / Heinz-Ulrich Walther

1969

Garmisch-Partenkirchen

Irina Rodnina / Alexei Ulanov

Liudmila Belousova / Oleg Protopopov

Tamara Moskvina / Alexei Mishin
-----------------------------------

World Championships
-----------------------------------
1968

Geneva

Liudmila Belousova / Oleg Protopopov

Tatiana Zhuk / Alexander Gorelik

Cynthia Kauffman / Ronald Kauffman

1969

Colorado Springs

Irina Rodnina / Alexei Ulanov

Tamara Moskvina / Alexei Mishin

Liudmila Belousova / Oleg Protopopov

1970

Ljubljana

Irina Rodnina / Alexei Ulanov

Liudmila Smirnova / Andrei Suraikin

Heidemarie Steiner / Heinz-Ulrich Walther
-----------------------------------

 

[MsZem]

I so missed The Great Quad Controversy of 2010. Let's continue rehashing it!

Though kwanfan1818 is naturally focusing on Patrick Chan's injury, it should be noted that most of the contenders had medical issues in 2009-10, some of them quite serious. If allowances are made for Chan and Lysacek, why not for Plushenko, Takahashi, Joubert and Lambiel?

Schultheiss and Amodio were absolutely worthy of support that year. Inman's behavior was completely out of line. None of this has anything to do with Mishin's interview.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Though kwanfan1818 is naturally focusing on Patrick Chan's injury

Mishin said that Chan and Lysacek were running to learn quads after Vancouver, which is bullshit. Hence, I'm naturally focusing on Chan and Lysacek.

I knew it was Ronina/Ulanov and Bratus/Mishin who were pushing the athleticism that was a sharp contrast with Belusova/Protopopov,

And, despite two straight Olympic gold medals, the Russian Fed dumped them in 1969.

 

[bardtoob]

And, despite two straight Olympic gold medals, the Russian Fed dumped them in 1969.

Yep . . . I think Belusova and Protopopov did not project the type of image the Soviet Politburo wanted.

It probably did not help that they left Zhuk.

 

[aftershocks]

I knew it was Ronina/Ulanov and Bratus/Mishin who were pushing the athleticism that was a sharp contrast with Belusova/Protopopov, and in 1968 and 1969 these pairs, along with Zhuk/Gorelik, were trading positions on National, Euro, and World podiums. I researched it because I always wondered why Belusova/Protopopov were not on the 1972 Olympic Team and teamt like Rodnina w/ partner became the forefront of pairs for the next decade.

How did you do your research? Watch videos? Check out competition results? That never tells the whole story. The Protopopovs are responsible for revolutionizing the pairs discipline. They paved the way for all the other Russian pairs to come along and dominate. And please remember that the Protopopovs defected to Switzerland in 1979. They placed 3rd at the Soviet Championships in 1972. Apparently, the decision was made for them (with or without their consent) not to continue competing as amateurs. Obviously, they were unhappy under the Soviet system or they wouldn't have later defected.

You don't think pairs teams from other countries were involved in pushing athleticism boundaries as well during that period? There were definitely pairs from other countries who impacted the pairs discipline. And we shouldn't completely throw out how the discipline evolved over the years, and what it looked like prior to the Protopopovs' amazing impact.


As far as 2010 Olympics, Mishin made reference to it in his comments, which is what posters are responding to. Of course, the topic has more than enough fodder for it's own thread. The impacts of what happened in 2010 before and after the Olympics, are still being felt in the sport so that's why the subject triggers passionate responses.

Who had medical issues among the men has some but not a whole lot of bearing on who performed quads. Ad nauseam reminder: quads were not needed to win, and obviously garnered none of the exponential point-getting value that they now do (as a direct result of what happened at those Games).

 

[bardtoob]

How did you do your research? Watch videos? Check out competition results? That never tells the whole story. The Protopopovs are responsible for revolutionizing the pairs discipline. They paved the way for all the other Russian pairs to come along and dominate. And please remember that the Protopopovs defected to Switzerland in 1979. They placed 3rd at the Soviet Championships in 1972. Apparently, the decision was made for them (with or without their consent) not to continue competing as amateurs. Obviously, they were unhappy under the Soviet system or they wouldn't have later defected.

Competition results, articles about competitions, and what the Protopopov said lead to their defection. They were really harassed about their age and often told they were too dramatic and not athletic enough. I am old enough to know how to use card catalogs and microfiche.

Later I did find videos of them, most of which were really found by @floskate. At the time, my source forbid posting videos on YouTube.

 

[aftershocks]

^^^ Thanks @bardtoob. I'm not knocking your research capabilities, just bemoaning the lack of centralized resources and a body of more extensive and substantial available research and published documents. But as skating fans have shown, we need to pursue that kind of diligent work ourselves.

Yes, I figured some of the political attitude against the Protopopovs had to do with their ages, even despite their significant and groundbreaking accomplishments.

 

[bardtoob]

Yes, I figured some of the political attitude against the Protopopovs had to do with their ages, even despite their significant and groundbreaking accomplishments.

They were considered "over the hill" for skating literally before they even started.

Their aesthetic sensibilities were also very unSoviet. They were too artistically bourgeois Romantic.

https://youtu.be/9tY_2eE9hv8

In contrast, Rodnina was machine like and embraced traditional peasant (proletariat) culture.

https://youtu.be/b9LWvFari5k

(Gosh Rodnina has access to nice training facilities.)

 

[aftershocks]

Hmmm, are you getting that "bourgeois Romantic" characterization of the Protopopovs from primary sources? It's debatable, but IMO, the Protopopovs accessed and revealed the importance of Russian balletic tradition to ice skating, which had not really been presented before in the way they captured it on ice. The concept of two skating as one begins to arise with the beauty they created, and the exquisite chemistry they possessed, not to mention all the pairs skating moves they innovated.

The Protopopovs (B/P) were different, they were rebels, and of course that always attracts a bit of jealousy as well as resistance in some quarters. A book could be written on the topic of Russia's impact on the pairs discipline along with the politics and infighting among Soviet coaches, athletes, fed officials. Plus another book on the history and evolution of the pairs field altogether.

 

[bardtoob]

Hmmm, are you getting that "bourgeois Romantic" description from primary sources? It's debatable ...

If you would like to debate, here is something you can read to get a decent background ...

--------------------
V. I. Lenin -
A Characterisation of Economic Romanticism

II. The Petty-Bourgeois Character of Romanticism - https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1897/econroman/ii8ii.htm

---------

...the Protopopovs accessed and revealed the importance of Russian balletic tradition to ice skating ...

It is not how they skated, it was the music they skated to, the way they were dressed, and their stated motives.

 

[MsZem]

Mishin said that Chan and Lysacek were running to learn quads after Vancouver, which is bullshit. Hence, I'm naturally focusing on Chan and Lysacek.

I've already noted that I think Mishin was overstating the case, but the broader point stands: a lot of the guys were not attempting quads because the scoring was such that you could get away with not having any. Pretty much all the contenders had physical limitations going into the 2010 Olympics, and for some of them this manifested in reduced speed, for some in lack of quads, for others in easier non-jump content. I don't think it's fair to attribute what was lacking for Chan and Lysacek to injury, and not extend the same courtesy to Takahashi (who tore an ACL, a much more serious injury than either of them) or Lambiel, whose hip problems were so bad he actually retired.

Given the same set of circumstances with 2014 scoring and level of competition, I suspect some of the men might have pushed harder on the technical side. Which is not necessarily for the best; I'd like skaters to be able to walk in their post-competitive life, even if it means fewer quads and less busy programs.