Ermolina's interview with Mishin `A programme without the quads is empty'

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Olga Ermolina's interview with Alexey Mishin `A programme without the quads is empty' for fsrussia.ru

OE: Alexey Nikolaevich, how does the preparation for the season go on? How is Liza Tuktamysheva?
AM: Liza is in a `to be or not to be' state. The upcoming season will be a defining. Her new programmes are interesting, colourful, with the right content they will allow her to reach the highest goals.
As for the other athletes am content with the progress of Sonia Samodurova, who not only will become a better athlete but an artist.
Alina Solovieva slowly recover. I think she is one of the best moving girls in our skating.

OE: The boys?
AM: See, the coach always has to see something positive, otherwise the progress is useless. So looking at the male skating I'd like to stress the advantages of my skaters. I think the last couple of seasons showed Petrov is the most consistent skater of our team. He has a very needed in our sport feature: he shows all he can on the competitions. If the athlete does not have it - all coach's efforts are in vain. Sasha Petrov can and does it.
As for Andrey Lazukin, and his positive features I'd say he is one of the most elegant and best looking skater, his anatomy is the best suited for the figure skating. Besides, he is a very gifted skater, he has a light gliding. Taking in the practices and test skates Andrey showed the 4loop I see a good chance he'll make it to the team.
As for the younger guys, first of all we pay attention to those who have an ability to land the jumps. The leaders there are Zhenia Semenenko and the young skater from Kazan Gleb Seifulin. Zhenya is already doing a 3A in his competition. The 4T. He is getting near landing the 4S. As for Gleb, together with Rezeda Kadyrova we'll try to get the best out of him.

OE: You haven't mentioned Liza Nugumanova nor Petr Gumennik
AM: I put a lot of effort in these guys, they learned a lot, but let me put it this way: the coach, pupil, parents relationship were not to my liking.

OE: You are now in a training camp in Courchevel. An obvious choice: the highs and the endurance. But you also hold an annual training camp in Tartu. What attracts you there?
AM: The organizing of the training camps is quite complicated. We were luck to meet a good organizer in Tartu, who have been working with the international camps and the summer training camps. During the year she thinks to the smallest details - the conditions, the logistics, the transportation, and by the time we come all is ready for us. It is also important the camp is partially sponsored by the foreign skaters who join, yet we have as much ice as we need. During the camp we hold the test skate which is kind of an exhibition.
Looking back at my training camps I'd like to remind such skaters as Sarah Meyer, Kiira Korpy, Stephane Lambiel, Javier Fernandez, Carolina Kostner and Zijung Li learned their jumps under my guiding.
As for why Tartu? It's a remotely cheap place. Good conditions, everything is nearby, it's cosy and calm, nothing takes the skaters' minds off work. The atmosphere of the city is highly intellectual. 90% of the residents of Tartu are students or the university workers, which is one of the oldest in Europe. The way they all treat us is great. The atmosphere in the camp is creative and conduct.

OE: Who are the specialists you worked with this time?
AM: Every year we try inviting new choreographers. In general picking a choreographer is an important aspect. In our team some like it, some less so, the way they treat what the choreographer do - is an unfinished work. Many foreign choreographers do the programmes only to show how great they are. We, on the other hand, have a different goal - to create a programme that would allow winning a medal. The choreographer who creates the programes and polishes them and makes them convenient for the skater - Tatiana Prokofieva. She is a true master.
This year we invited a not so well known choreographer Adam Sol from Belgium. I saw a couple of his works on the ice and I liked Adam's style. I think we'll continue collaborating.
The known choreographer Lori Nichol also worked with our team. She created a programme for Carolina Kostner on the motives of the diagilev's seasons in Paris, it was inspired by `The afternoon of a Faun' by Nijinski. Lori also created 2 programmes for our Chinese skater Zijung Li.
I'll remind previous years we worked with Emmanuel Sandhu and Misha Ge. We keep working with the French choreographer Benoit Richaud. We also had in Tartu Ramil Mehdiev- a soloist of Igor Moiseev ensemble which was a nice surprise.
Working with us the choreographers learn a lot from our experience, the concepts that we created in our group through the years. Every time the collaboration is over they say they learned a lot of new things that will make them more needed in the future. Indeed working with such athletes as Pluschenko, Gatchinski, Tuktamysheva, Petrov, Lazukin adds to their resume.

OE: In the recent years we hear the coaches complaining a lot it's hard to find the right partners for the pairs and dance. Do you have any thoughts on that?
AM: Currently we see a lack of good partners both in the pairs and the ice dance. Let me recall what my supervisor prof. Alexandr Borisovich Gandelsman said: `I think the single skating is the source of all skating'. I think it's right for today as well. Think we have to reconsider and add the amount of the single skating in general. I can certainly say in such countries as the USA, Canada, Japan, Korea and others the amount of the single skaters is much higher than the amount of the dancers or pairs skaters.
I was a witness, or, even a participant of forming of the pairs skating. What it used to be in the past - if you are useless in the singles skating you switch to pairs. If you are not good enough there - off to the ice dance you go. If you failed there - become a coach. If you did not become a good coach you become a judge. If you failed all that, what is next? Ok, its' a joke. But seriously, when Tamara Moskvina and I were skating we were the best single skaters in the warm ups and the competitions. When the known French coach Vaudecrane saw what we were doing on the ice she exclaimed `It's the singles skating! They are just jumping and jumping!'
Now, years later, you can't do a thing without the jumps. The pairs skaters land a 3lz, the 3-3 combos and it will become more complicated in the future. Hence now in order to create a decent pair you need 2 good skaters and a season later you'll have a pair. No need pairing up in the childhood. The boys are not strong enough,the girls are growing up and you can't predict how tall they will become. The recent development in the ice dance proves my point the new teams will be formed from the decent single skaters.
Of course Ludmila Belousova/Oleg Protopopov brought the artistic side to the figure skating. But when talking about Tamara and I you could say we left our mark. We were one of the first pairs of the teamed up single skaters. We were the pioneers. Look at it today: we sent 2 of our guys - Alexandra Boikova and Dmitrii Kozlovskii to the pairs skating and they raised at once! Hence there should be more decent single skaters. Then, am sure, thanks to a wider choice of partners we'll improve the state of the dance and the pairs. I spoke to the heads of our federation on that matter and they agreed.

EO: What prevents us from preparing good single male skaters, such as Hanyu today?
AM: We have lots of girls and hardly any boys. Take a little kids group, it's 8:2. Of course the competition among the girls is higher, hence they progress. But everything in nature is repetitive. Where is the known British ice dance school of Towler-Ford? Where are the Austrian Schwarz/Danzer? Where is the Czech Nepela? Where is the American Fleming? So I think we should not panic but understand such unique skaters as Hanuy, who is a combination of an amazing ability and hard working are rare.
During my existence in the Soviet figure skating we had great pairs, dancers and men and lacked decent ladies. Guess it's a compensation and we should do all we can to make things even again.
I want to remind you the wise words of the head of the federation Alexandr Gorshkov `there is no such thing as too many good female skaters'. The Worlds in Helsinki showed it's right. Only one remained `unbeatable'. And yet at the beginning of the season many were offended by my words when after looking at all the ladies in the team, when the mood was that the Russian female skaters are unbeatable I said the only one `unbeatable' is Medvedeva. It turned out to be true.
Let me add something else. When I was becoming a coach there were others, who had great results in the sports - the Worlds and European medalists. The methods of teaching figure skating were only forming back then. The skaters who managed to cross the `iron curtain' and get familiar with the most progressive ways became the coaches of the team. I recall Zhuk. Pliner and Moskvin, myself - we were filming non stop the performances and the practices of the best skaters in the world.
Later when the methods and the system were formed the text book jumps were by Urmanov, Tataurov, Yagudin and Pluschenko and my other athletes. Now any athlete can become a coach, even one who did not achieve much as a skater using the current system and methodology. More than that, the current judging system put the maths above all. If previously we were trying to create an unforgettable programme, a masterpiece that was not limited by the number of revolutions, brakets and rockers or spins or positions...

OE: Do you reckon we'll see in Korean Olympics as many quads as we saw in the recent Worlds?
AM: We will. Or even more. The one who will be attempting a 4lz or 4f, two 4S and two 4T will win. And of course the one who will be lucky

EO: After the worlds there were a lot of talks the men programmes with so many quads become a speed up - jump pattern, that there is no artistic side left. What can be done about it?
AM: It will come to it's places in time. I have an example when before the Olympics in Vancouver many were saying they don't need a quad and they will beat Pluschenko with the transitions. The processes are not only sporadic, they can be controlled. Then, at the 2010 Olympics the ISU leaned towards the transitions. But right after the Olympics both Lysacek and Chan ran to learn the quads. I always wanted my athletes to perform the hardest jumps with the maximum revolutions.
It's a mistake thinking the hard jumps and the beauty cancel each other. When the great athletes switched to the shows after a successful career and were not doing the jumps it became boring. Yes, the flow was better, they were better looking but once there were no jumps there was no flavour in their skating. It was not impressive. Because one of the most convincing ways in figure skating choreography are the jumps. Even the audience can calculate the revolutions and applaud. It would be silly claiming the steps and spins are not important. They are part of the success. But it's like food without the spice. No matter how many vegetables you put in the soup - it will not be tasty.
 
EO: What prevents us from preparing good single male skaters, such as Hanyu today?
AM: We have lots of girls and hardly any boys. Take a little kids group, it's 8:2. Of course the competition among the girls is higher, hence they progress. But everything in nature is repetitive. Where is the known British ice dance school of Towler-Ford? Where are the Austrian Schwarz/Danzer? Where is the Czech Nepela? Where is the American Fleming? So I think we should not panic but understand such unique skaters as Hanuy, who is a combination of an amazing ability and hard working are rare.



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LOl at the shade thrown at the current US ladies skating .:D
 
He has a great perspective. I think he is absolutely correct. Skaters who thought they could compete with quads by artistic brilliance took the wrong train. Jason Brown comes to mind.
 
It is nice to see Mishin giving credit to Belousova and Protopopov despite having been his direct competitors back then. Politically, in the past it would not have been possible even if he had seen it appropriate.

... And, yes, there was a lot of athletic innovation in pairs that came out of his pairing with Moskovina (Bratus), including incorporating the Beillmann spin into a pairs program.

https://youtu.be/6-c0RmNtfR4
 
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Sólya Ádám ( Adam Solya ) is from Belgium but he is Hungarian.
 
But right after the Olympics both Lysacek and Chan ran to learn the quads
Which is, of course, inaccurate: Chan had already attempted a quad at 2009 Liberty (fall after landing one in practice), with full intention of adding it to his program run-throughs in the lead up to his GPs to attempt it there to get mileage on it before Nationals and the Olympics. Then he became ill at High Performance Camp, suffered a muscle tear, and had to pull out of Rostelecom Cup after faltering at Skate Canada. He wasn't even in full shape by Nationals, and a quad attempt at the Olympics would have been a Hail Mary, given where his training was at the time.

Lysacek had already landed quads in competition as early as 2007 Nationals, followed by 2007 4C's and Worlds. He landed them at least through GPF in the 2007-8 season. (The ISU server is choking, and I can't access any of the protocols.) So he wasn't learning anything: he was trying to see if, in his injury-prone state, he could add them back in during his comeback attempt.

It so happened that he won his two biggest titles -- 2009 Worlds, when he was injured, ie, why he pulled the quad from his program, and the 2010 Olympics -- without quads, but in the 2006-2010 Olympic cycle, he more often attempted quads -- often landing them, alone and in combination -- than he didn't, and that's even if he attempted none starting with 2008 Nationals through the Vancouver Olympics.

But Plushenko didn't compete for most of that cycle, and when he did come back, the few times he competed until Vancouver, it was never against Lysacek. Gachinski didn't go senior until 2010-11. If Mishin wasn't paying attention to the field in the Vancouver cycle, fine, but why bother letting the facts get in the way?
 
Which is, of course, inaccurate: Chan had already attempted a quad at 2009 Liberty (fall after landing one in practice), with full intention of adding it to his program run-throughs in the lead up to his GPs to attempt it there to get mileage on it before Nationals and the Olympics. Then he became ill at High Performance Camp, suffered a muscle tear, and had to pull out of Rostelecom Cup after faltering at Skate Canada. He wasn't even in full shape by Nationals, and a quad attempt at the Olympics would have been a Hail Mary, given where his training was at the time.

Lysacek had already landed quads in competition as early as 2007 Nationals, followed by 2007 4C's and Worlds. He landed them at least through GPF in the 2007-8 season. (The ISU server is choking, and I can't access any of the protocols.) So he wasn't learning anything: he was trying to see if, in his injury-prone state, he could add them back in during his comeback attempt.

It so happened that he won his two biggest titles -- 2009 Worlds, when he was injured, ie, why he pulled the quad from his program, and the 2010 Olympics -- without quads, but in the 2006-2010 Olympic cycle, he more often attempted quads -- often landing them, alone and in combination -- than he didn't, and that's even if he attempted none starting with 2008 Nationals through the Vancouver Olympics.

But Plushenko didn't compete for most of that cycle, and when he did come back, the few times he competed until Vancouver, it was never against Lysacek. Gachinski didn't go senior until 2010-11. If Mishin wasn't paying attention to the field in the Vancouver cycle, fine, but why bother letting the facts get in the way?

Yes. But if you want to be accurate Chan attacked Plushenko in some intervews and he said the quad doesn't need in men skating. Before Vancouver:

"I just did some yesterday," Chan said. "It's not like I've totally wiped it out and forgot about it and scrapped the idea, it's just that I just keep doing it for fun and show it off in practice, show the guys that 'I can be up there with you guys because I can do a quad.
"But I chose not to do it in the program and take that risk. I can do it in practice for sure."

"I love the new system, it's a great way to promote an all around skater especially a skater like me," said Chan.
"He's (Plushenko) confident that the quad will really help him, that he doesn't need transitions. He's old, I can't tell him it's not good. (27 y.o.)

I think we'll start seeing more skaters like me in future generations."

"Of course they'll (Plushenko and Joubert) do it in practice and will nail it on front of me. It's totally normal that's why the Olympics are so special. I'll only use that to feed the fire and focus on what I can do.

It's going to be exciting to see what Plushenko has up his sleeve. We're all a bunch of great skaters. It's whoever who can grasp that moment on that Tuesday and Thursday." :biggrinbo

Lysacek and Patrick Chan said that the quad is not the future of mens figure skating, whereas Plushenko, Takahashi, Oda, Lambiel, Kazuka all thought that the quad should be the future, even those among them who can't do it yet.

In autumn 2010 he said:

“I understand now. I’m on the other side of the wall. It’s a level of excitement I’m talking about. You just elevate your program to that level of excitement where everyone else who has done quads, like Plushenko, has that excitement.

I kind of took the side that if you did a clean program without the quad you can still win and you can be comfortable,” Chan said. “But to be honest, it’s a whole different level to be doing quads, a whole different level of confidence.”



Lysacek landed in quad in 2007, yes. But honestly do you think he would have landed in it if he " healthy" in Vancouver??????

We all know the quad came back to the men competition because of the Vancouver scandal. Thus mayxbe Mishin wasn't exact but he was right.
 
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es. But if you want to be accurate Chan attacked Plushenko in some intervews and he said the quad doesn't need in men skating. Before Vancouver:
"I just did some yesterday," Chan said. "It's not like I've totally wiped it out and forgot about it and scrapped the idea, it's just that I just keep doing it for fun and show it off in practice, show the guys that 'I can be up there with you guys because I can do a quad.
"But I chose not to do it in the program and take that risk. I can do it in practice for sure."
He was talking about right before the Olympics. Doing quads in practice as a stand-alone jump is very different than practicing them in the context of the program, and his fall was ruined by his injury. As a result he was not in shape to do his standard content at 2010 Nationals, just a few weeks before the Olympics.

Someone who can show off quads in practice is not someone who "ran to learn the quads" after Vancouver.

Lysacek landed in quad in 2007, yes. But honestly do you think he would have landed in it if he " healthy" in Vancouver??????
He did it often enough through GPF 2008 as documented in Wikipedia. As I wrote earlier, the ISU site is coming up with errors when I try to get to the protocols from 2009 (or the competition results link in bios). It's possible he landed quads at 2009 Nationals and/or 4C's. I don't know when his injury occurred.

Someone who attempted and landed them consistently for two years is not someone who "ran to learn the quads" after Vancouver.

We all know the quad came back to the men competition because of the Vancouver scandal.
The scandal was how close Plushenko came to winning.
 
He was talking about right before the Olympics. Doing quads in practice as a stand-alone jump is very different than practicing them in the context of the program, and his fall was ruined by his injury. As a result he was not in shape to do his standard content at 2010 Nationals, just a few weeks before the Olympics.

Someone who can show off quads in practice is not someone who "ran to learn the quads" after Vancouver.


He did it often enough through GPF 2008 as documented in Wikipedia. As I wrote earlier, the ISU site is coming up with errors when I try to get to the protocols from 2009 (or the competition results link in bios). It's possible he landed quads at 2009 Nationals and/or 4C's. I don't know when his injury occurred.

Someone who attempted and landed them consistently for two years is not someone who "ran to learn the quads" after Vancouver.


The scandal was how close Plushenko came to winning.

Your post is just playing with the words. If I look behind the words: typical North-American opinion, it defends Laysa's gold. You do it, I have no problem with it. :40beers:

But my opinion isn't change (as many other FS fans' also) thanks to Vancouver scandal the quad is very impotant part of men skating again! This is what Mishin said in his intervew.
 
Which is, of course, inaccurate: Chan had already attempted a quad at 2009 Liberty (fall after landing one in practice), with full intention of adding it to his program run-throughs in the lead up to his GPs to attempt it there to get mileage on it before Nationals and the Olympics. Then he became ill at High Performance Camp, suffered a muscle tear, and had to pull out of Rostelecom Cup after faltering at Skate Canada. He wasn't even in full shape by Nationals, and a quad attempt at the Olympics would have been a Hail Mary, given where his training was at the time.

Lysacek had already landed quads in competition as early as 2007 Nationals, followed by 2007 4C's and Worlds. He landed them at least through GPF in the 2007-8 season. (The ISU server is choking, and I can't access any of the protocols.) So he wasn't learning anything: he was trying to see if, in his injury-prone state, he could add them back in during his comeback attempt.

It so happened that he won his two biggest titles -- 2009 Worlds, when he was injured, ie, why he pulled the quad from his program, and the 2010 Olympics -- without quads, but in the 2006-2010 Olympic cycle, he more often attempted quads -- often landing them, alone and in combination -- than he didn't, and that's even if he attempted none starting with 2008 Nationals through the Vancouver Olympics.

But Plushenko didn't compete for most of that cycle, and when he did come back, the few times he competed until Vancouver, it was never against Lysacek. Gachinski didn't go senior until 2010-11. If Mishin wasn't paying attention to the field in the Vancouver cycle, fine, but why bother letting the facts get in the way?
Which is exactly the reason I hate translating Mishin's interviews. His own vision of things is not necessarily the reality....
 
Lysacek's gold does not need defending. Plushenko's silver does.

This is just an opinion. The opinion is free.

^I didn't know if any other coaches , experts, skaters say something in their interviews those are always the reality . Not their own vision or thoughts from their points of view.
 
We've been through this. Even won but that's it. He has no legacy, isn't really an important player in the history of men's figure skating, and really contributed nothing.
I would say that was an accurate description of Lysacek's career but how many Olympic Champions over the past 40 years have been influential and had a legacy in the sport? I would hardly say that Lysacek was unique in that respect. In fact, I think many of the skaters who never achieved that Olympic title have ended being more influential than in the sport than the people who beat them.
 
OE: Who are the specialists you worked with this time?
AM: Every year we try inviting new choreographers. In general picking a choreographer is an important aspect. In our team some like it, some less so, the way they treat what the choreographer do - is an unfinished work. Many foreign choreographers do the programmes only to show how great they are. We, on the other hand, have a different goal - to create a programme that would allow winning a medal.
I'm shocked, shocked that the choreographers' efforts are treated as unfinished work, to be altered in the service of medals. I never would have guessed ;)

He was talking about right before the Olympics. Doing quads in practice as a stand-alone jump is very different than practicing them in the context of the program, and his fall was ruined by his injury. As a result he was not in shape to do his standard content at 2010 Nationals, just a few weeks before the Olympics.

It's possible he landed quads at 2009 Nationals and/or 4C's. I don't know when his injury occurred.
Which is exactly the reason I hate translating Mishin's interviews. His own vision of things is not necessarily the reality....
There's a bit of hyperbole there, but it is true that most of the men were in no great hurry to put quads in their programs until the ISU made changes to the scale of values after the 2009-10 season. It is also true that Patrick Chan changed his tune about the relative importance of quads once he started attempting them in his competitive programs.

Lysacek's stress fracture occurred some time before 2009 Worlds. He was indeed landing quads in previous seasons, and if I'm not mistaken was also the first skater to land a 4-3 and get L4 on steps in the same SP. According to the protocols, he landed a 4T in the LP at 2009 4CCs.

Still, the guys who thought quads were important were going for them back in 2010 - e.g. Joubert, Plushenko, Takahashi (who would have probably won an OGM if he were content to play it safe). All three of these skaters dealt with significant injuries and/or their aftermath leading up to the Olympics that year.

The recent development in the ice dance proves my point the new teams will be formed from the decent single skaters.
This is where Mishin really makes no sense. What recent developments in ice dance show this? Paul Poirier competing at Canadian Nationals in singles when he was younger? Annabelle Morozov switching to dance? Fedor Andreev's adventures with Khokhlova?

The three medal-winning teams at 2017 Worlds have been together since childhood and only ever competed in ice dance (barring maybe local comps when they were kids). So have Bobrova/Soloviev, and Davis and White also teamed up very young - though Charlie did also compete in singles up to the junior level.
 
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Well, single skaters switching to pairs and dance is en vogue in Russia at the present. Maybe that's what he's referring to.
 
Well, single skaters switching to pairs and dance is en vogue in Russia at the present. Maybe that's what he's referring to.
Maybe - but I think such skaters will find it difficult to compete against teams who have a more extensive ice dance background. I can think of some skaters who were relatively successful despite making the switch relatively late - most obviously the Kerrs, and more recently Hurtado/Diaz - but there was still a ceiling.
 
This is where Mishin really makes no sense. What recent developments in ice dance show this? Paul Poirier competing at Canadian Nationals in singles when he was younger? Annabelle Morozov switching to dance? Fedor Andreev's adventures with Khokhlova?

I thought he was obviously talking about Alisa Lozko and Adian Pitkeev, who were well established in singles and relatively successful. And he didn't say that they are destined to win everything in ice dance, he just said there will be teams composed of two strong singles skaters, if the translation is correct. He thinks that having a good base as a singles skater leads to stronger pairs and dancers and that Boikova/Kozlovskii is an example of that. I think transitioning to ice dance would be harder, but we will have to wait and see.

I don't agree with many of his points, but especially his last paragraph. Look at Stephane Lambiel, his show skating is anything but boring. And I've seen plenty of empty programs with good jumps from Mishin skaters, so...
 
There's a bit of hyperbole there, but it is true that most of the men were in no great hurry to put quads in their programs until the ISU made changes to the scale of values after the 2009-10 season.
That is not true, and somewhere in the archives I pulled the data and posted it. (I have no interest in doing it again.) There were a few more quads after they raised the value by what, another 1-1.5 points? It wasn't until they removed the penalty and double penalty for under-rotations that quads took off. They could have started there in the first place.

Still, the guys who thought quads were important were going for them back in 2010 - e.g. Joubert, Plushenko, Takahashi (who would have probably won an OGM if he were content to play it safe). All three of these skaters dealt with significant injuries and/or their aftermath leading up to the Olympics that year.
Joubert had quads and charisma, but he often weakened at the end of his programs and did not have a great Olympic record: he did relatively well in 2006, placing sixth, but in his other three tries, he was 14, 16, and 13. Takahashi, unfortunately, didn't rotate his, something that was never Joubert or Plushenko's problem, and his program had an energy lull in the middle of it, which made me :wuzrobbed, because I wanted him to win the OGM, since I knew Kozuka didn't have a chance.
 
That is not true, and somewhere in the archives I pulled the data and posted it. (I have no interest in doing it again.) There were a few more quads after they raised the value by what, another 1-1.5 points? It wasn't until they removed the penalty and double penalty for under-rotations that quads took off. They could have started there in the first place.
I should have been clearer on this - I used "scale of values" as shorthand for base value, bringing the negative GOEs in line with the positive GOEs, and the reduced penalty for underrotations. These things together greatly boosted the number of men doing quads in competition.

Joubert had quads and charisma, but he often weakened at the end of his programs and did not have a great Olympic record: he did relatively well in 2006, placing sixth, but in his other three tries, he was 14, 16, and 13. Takahashi, unfortunately, didn't rotate his, something that was never Joubert or Plushenko's problem, and his program had an energy lull in the middle of it, which made me :wuzrobbed, because I wanted him to win the OGM, since I knew Kozuka didn't have a chance.
I'm certainly not going to argue that Joubert should have won an Olympic medal; he was too young in SLC, picked the wrong LP in 2006, got derailed in 2010 (whether due to injury or mental issues or both) and was way past his prime in Sochi. He was, however, one of the few contenders to attempt quads in both the SP and LP in 2010 - you can look at the protocols from 2010 Worlds, for instance, to see how unusual that was at the time. Joubert was outspoken about how important he thought quads were to the development of men's skating, and at times got criticized for expressing this sentiment (including, rather memorably, by Chan). In hindsight I guess he was a visionary ;)

Takahashi's programs in 2009-10 were awesome.
 
Reducing the penalties/double penalties for under-rotations did not just impact quads, although that is the most talked about aspect of the change. This had impacts throughout the system and all of the ranks. It was a lot more profound than adding a point to the base value of quads, and didn't impact more than 4T and the occasional 4S until the last year or two.

Joubert was outspoken about how important he thought quads were to the development of men's skating, and at times got criticized for expressing this sentiment (including, rather memorably, by Chan). In hindsight I guess he was a visionary ;)
Actually, he was criticized for having quads and very little else but jumps, air pumps, and pelvic thrusts.

The men who won with quads in the last two cycles are primarily the ones with quads and programs: Chan, Kozuka, Takahashi, Hanyu, and Ten. Even Chen, Jin, and Uno are Curry by comparison to Joubert.

And I thought Joubert should have won at least the FS in Dortmund, especially after Plushenko wiped out on the entry to his 3Lo. It was still officially 6.0. I think he and Plushenko were highly overrated under IJS. Joubert was given higher PCS than Jeff Buttle in 2008. I mean, seriously.
 
Plushenko could have easily won the 2010 Olympics if he had constructed his programs for the IJS. However, in 2010 he was still calling the system "new" and was making no attempts to maximize his scoring potential until after the loss, which signaled to him that the rules were not just a formality that could be overcome with his reputation.

Here is an early season LP from the 2012 Japan Open. While front loaded and as unpolished as one might expect for an early season program, it is clear Plushy and team constructed the program properly and he was capable of scoring well by way of the appropriate content, rather than expecting the technical callers and judges to pretend something was there that was not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6_0TevMkhg
 
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Actually, he was criticized for having quads and very little else but jumps, air pumps, and pelvic thrusts.

The men who won with quads in the last two cycles are primarily the ones with quads and programs: Chan, Kozuka, Takahashi, Hanyu, and Ten. Even Chen, Jin, and Uno are Curry by comparison to Joubert.
No, he was criticized for having an unpopular (at the time) opinion. Joubert did not have pelvic thrusts in his 2007-8 programs (much to TaT's chagrin, no doubt), or in his post-Vancouver programs. Should I describe someone else's skating based on one SP?

Uno is fabulous, leave him alone. Chen and Jin are not Curry in comparison to anyone, though I am sure Phil Hersh will argue otherwise. Are you trying to outdo Mishin when it comes to revisionist history and over-the-top statements?

None of this has anything to do with my original point, which is that most men were not attempting quads around the time of Vancouver and until the ISU made changes to the scoring. Which I suspect was what Mishin was getting at, except he overstated things by suggesting that Lysacek had to scramble to learn how to do quads.
 
Skaters who thought they could compete with quads by artistic brilliance took the wrong train.
Skaters do what they can do best to accumulate points. If they don't have reliable quads at the moment, that means they have to find other ways to be rewarded in the meantime. They're on a different train (track?) but that doesn't mean they're on the "wrong" train, IMO.
 
Skaters do what they can do best to accumulate points. If they don't have reliable quads at the moment, that means they have to find other ways to be rewarded in the meantime. They're on a different train (track?) but that doesn't mean they're on the "wrong" train, IMO.

What about if they could score 10 on every PCS category but still not be competitive due to lack of technical content yet still think technical content is not worth developing?
 
Sylvia prefaced her remark

If they don't have reliable quads at the moment,

This doesn't suggest to me that the skater doesn't think technical content is not worth developing. The question is whether it's worth putting them in at any given time. Sometimes the judging system determines that. Sometimes the way the system is implemented in spite of itself that determines that.
 
Skaters do what they can do best to accumulate points. If they don't have reliable quads at the moment, that means they have to find other ways to be rewarded in the meantime. They're on a different train (track?) but that doesn't mean they're on the "wrong" train, IMO.

Nice response. What I meant that not too many years ago, you could compete against technical prowess with gorgeous artistry. I was thinking an analogy of two trains was a graphic illustration of some of what was discussed in the article. I do know that skaters choose what they do best. While Nathan Chan boarded the jumping train, I suspect Jason and his team thought the artistic train would carry him far enough.

I also think Mishin was right about men's competition being all about the quad. To develop and test in competition an element that is not reliable (like Marai or whomever adding a 3A this year) is a way risky move. This year (I would think) is all about coming out of the gate with your best foot forward, and keeping that recognition and results building through to the OLYS.

I also thought that it was telling (and obvious after he said it) the Russians don't look to choreograph brilliant/epic programs, but rather to build winning programs. Easily seen.
 

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