Did a wrong choice of program lead to undesirable result?

[Xela M]

Absolutely any program that Tarasova & Morozov did/do fits this bill ALL their programs are unsuitable and always put them on a disadvantage

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

About Michelle Kwan, I don't share your opinion because her Olympics LP was so different from what Sarah Kawahara choreographed at the begining. Michelle changed the program so much, and this LP was similar to her previous LP from 2000 or 2001. Plus, had she landed the 3Flip, she would have been Olympic Champion. I don't think it has anything to do with the choreography.

Thank you. Sarah Kawahara is an AMAZING choreographer. It's chock full of transitions, quick moves, and is high energy. Think Beatrisa Liang's best programs. Definitely NOT the Kwan "style". There was as much Kawahara in Kwan's Scheherazade program as there was Christopher Dean in her Bolero program, which Dean made sure to repeat that he had no part in after she watered down the choreo to only her typical overused Kwan moves.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Absolutely any program that Tarasova & Morozov did/do fits this bill ALL their programs are unsuitable and always put them on a disadvantage

I in general agree, but not all of the programs have been bad. The Rach SP fit them like a glove. I think Glam was a good one as was Bolero. The “Winter” FS was lovely too.

 

[Vash01]

Absolutely any program that Tarasova & Morozov did/do fits this bill ALL their programs are unsuitable and always put them on a disadvantage

That may be true for some of their programs, but I liked their Chopin LP in 2016. It lacked the difficulty however. Last year Both Bolero and Albinone suited their style. I didn't care for TiAmo LP in 2020 but it was not terrible. Their SP was Bolero which absolutely fit them.

Their Rachmaninov SP in 1998 and 2019, and Winter LP in 2019 Were very good. The Winter LP was beautiful but Sui Han were unbeatable In 2019. It didn't help that T&M made a mistake on one of their sbs jumps.

The only really bad programs were Candyman - ill timed, and their SP in 2017. They deserved better programs early in their career to build up their reputation. I see it as the coach's fault.

 

[attyfan]

I agree that the choreography had nothing to do with Michelle's results in SLC; if she skated as she did at Nats, she'd have the OGM.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

This is random and goes back 30 years, but I think if Mark Mitchell performed his Fledermaus program at 1992 Nationals that he performed at 1992 Worlds, he would have been named to the team. His Waterfront program was old and tired, and not showing off his best abilities. It was strange that for an Olympic year that Mark would rehash that not-great program. That's one that has always stood out for me. Here are the two programs. A complete difference in performance and audience engagement.
Nationals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQGbsmhLIGg
Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV0FLL5j_Ok

It's hard to believe it's the same skater just weeks apart. The Worlds program showed off his elegance, line, musicality in spades, something that Waterfront really didn't do. It would have been interesting if he'd skated Fledermaus at USN. They really could not have put Wylie's Nationals performance over this. And I was a big fan, and also think if Mark went clean at Olympics he could have won an Olympic medal himself, considering how things worked out in Albertville.

 

[Judy]

Sometimes I wonder if a wrong choice of music or program may have cost a skater a better placement? Particularly when they went away from what had worked for them over time, it seems like it often did not work in their favor.

Usova- Zhulin, who are being discussed in the ice dance thread could be an example. Their FD in 1994 probably kept them from winning the gold. They went away from their classical style.

Duschenays used a traditional FD (WSS) in 1992 and they too went away from what had worked for them. Their originality was their strength. I think K&P would have won regardless with their Bach FD but it would have been much closer, had D&D had stuck with their strength.

Tarasova-Morozov's Candyman LP was a terrible choice. They did make major mistakes in the LP and that was the main reason they did not win a medal, but still a better choice of program might have helped them.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I felt for a long time that Michelle Kwan should have stuck with Lori Nichol's choreography in 2002. I didn't feel that Scheherazade was the right music or program for her. Nothing personal against Kawahara. She is a good choreographer. Michelle wanted to try something different (including going coachless). It was a bad time to make such big changes.

There May be more Examples.

I remember that Isabelle had lost her brother from cancer in the summer before the Olympics and it was obviously devastating for the family. Tough for that not to effect you but who knows what happened.

''I actually met him at Canadians one year .. such a nice guy.

 

[Vash01]

I remember that Isabelle had lost her brother from cancer in the summer before the Olympics and it was obviously devastating for the family. Tough for that not to effect you but who knows what happened.

''I actually met him at Canadians one year .. such a nice guy.

I remember that now. It came up in their interview. I know from personal experience how devastating it is to lose a brother. However, their choice of the music was not related to this tragedy, as far as I know.

 

[VGThuy]

Kwan worked with Kawahara before for tv specials and exhibitions. She did choreograph her Fields of Gold exhibition as well. The issue was that Kwan started out trying to make the program work but she ended up streamlining the program into a similar vein of her later season SOTBS routine for her comfort level. Having a similar timing and rhythm was her attempt to keeping her jumps consistent. The program was pretty rough early on in the Goodwill Games and Kwan kept tweaking it but made minimal changes during the GP. Then it changed big time by the GPF where she got rid of the interesting opening and streamlined her jump order to what became her usual jumping order and it was streamlined to what she ended up doing at Nationals, Olympics, and the Olympics. To be honest, it was less busy and I missed a lot of the moves in-between and the original footwork but it wasn’t that far from Kawahara’s original choreography that we saw at the Goodwill Games.

As for Bolero…that program was never the same every time she performed it. She debuted it at some Fall season pro-am and it started interestingly but it didn’t seem that different from her Aranjuez/Tosca. Then in December she performed a truly choreographically busy version with an even more difficult and long footwork sequence with different spin positions. I wondered if that version was the closest to Dean’s work but what it had in content and choreography, it sacrificed in flow and ease of movement. Then at Nationals she had an easier version of a mix of both the earlier and the December version. Then at Worlds, the whole program was different including the interesting opening and was geared towards COP even though Kwan could have games IJS more.

 

[caseyedwards]

D/S made the best decision! The most brilliant decision! His knee problems were so bad they needed to protect him for the FD. So they couldn’t do Russian folk dance they did. Too much knee usage! So they had to invent something that used limited knee. So they called what they invented aboriginal. It was so something with no knee or not medal or drop out

 

[nuge]

D/S made the best decision! The most brilliant decision! His knee problems were so bad they needed to protect him for the FD. So they couldn’t do Russian folk dance they did. Too much knee usage! So they had to invent something that used limited knee. So they called what they invented aboriginal. It was so something with no knee or not medal or drop out

Didnt she also have some elastic belt on her costume to lift her ?

 

[nuge]

Re Torvill and Dean's Face The Music FD, in my view the overhauled programme at the Olympics was worse than the Euros/Nationals version.

Agree.The euros version didn't have the wow or performance factor but it had complex steps and hand holds.They were all taken out and replaced with the tricks. They pulled it off on the night great performance but it didn't help them.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Though he won Olympic gold in Albertville with it, Viktor Petrenko performed three years running with a free skate he debuted for the 1990 season. By 1992, even he looked bored skating that program, and was very lucky the judges went with him and not underdog, Paul Wylie.

 

[caseyedwards]

Didnt she also have some elastic belt on her costume to lift her ?

That was another innovation they did! I believe they said it wasn’t using her costume so it was ok. It’s possible If someone else was in charge if could have been blocked. But it was either invent an aboriginal dance and use ropes or not medal or compete at all

it’s easy to see a scenario where some other leader of ice dance maybe some Canadian bans both the ropes and the aboriginal dance! “Not authentic!” “Use of costume!”

 

[Judy]

I remember that now. It came up in their interview. I know from personal experience how devastating it is to lose a brother. However, their choice of the music was not related to this tragedy, as far as I know.

I lost a brother too, sorry that we share that. I remember the tv commentators mentioning it.

 

[blue_idealist]

With a different free program, Virtue/Moir may have been able to win the 2014 OGM. That free dance they did was a snooze and D/W's was much more interesting.

 

[canbelto]

Ok about to get heat for this but ... I thought V/M's "The Seasons" hurt them. I know the judges wanted a classic style, but I think by that point they had outgrown that sort of romantic, classical program. They were stronger when they had a program that showcased their speed and dynamic lifts. In that sense, Moulin Rouge was perfect for them.

The Seasons is probably my least favorite V/M program of all time so ...

 

[blue_idealist]

Ok about to get heat for this but ... I thought V/M's "The Seasons" hurt them. I know the judges wanted a classic style, but I think by that point they had outgrown that sort of romantic, classical program. They were stronger when they had a program that showcased their speed and dynamic lifts. In that sense, Moulin Rouge was perfect for them.

The Seasons is probably my least favorite V/M program of all time so ...

Agree.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I wonder if Debi Thomas began to feel more pressure than expected, when it was discovered she and her arch-rival, Katarina Witt, were both skating to Carmen.

Debi's idol was Linda Fratianne, and I believe she chose Bizet's music as a tribute to the 1980 Olympic silver medalist.

I would have loved to see Debi skate to The Firebird, or Scheherezade, which really highlighed her strength and power.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Ok about to get heat for this but ... I thought V/M's "The Seasons" hurt them. I know the judges wanted a classic style, but I think by that point they had outgrown that sort of romantic, classical program. They were stronger when they had a program that showcased their speed and dynamic lifts. In that sense, Moulin Rouge was perfect for them.

The Seasons is probably my least favorite V/M program of all time so ...

I am not even sure that was about it being another "soft and romantic" program, honestly. It was just a bad program. It really lacked in perspective and cohesiveness compared to earlier programs. I think if you watch Mahler and Seasons side by side, the problems with Seasons are pretty obvious. Certainly going in a different direction could have helped, too, but it also just wasn't a good program in the style they chose.

 

[canbelto]

I am not even sure that was about it being another "soft and romantic" program, honestly. It was just a bad program. It really lacked in perspective and cohesiveness compared to earlier programs. I think if you watch Mahler and Seasons side by side, the problems with Seasons are pretty obvious. Certainly going in a different direction could have helped, too, but it also just wasn't a good program in the style they chose.

The music cuts were horrendous.

 

[Bigbird]

The music cuts were horrendous.

I don't know why Marina thought that would be a good vehicle for them. It was awful. It paled in comparison to what she gave to her future daughter in law and Charlie. V/M could have been 3 time Olympic Champions if she was more objective. It's the one program of theirs that I never review. Snoozefest.

 

[Clay]

Kwan worked with Kawahara before for tv specials and exhibitions. She did choreograph her Fields of Gold exhibition as well. The issue was that Kwan started out trying to make the program work but she ended up streamlining the program….The program was pretty rough early on in the Goodwill Games and Kwan kept tweaking it but made minimal changes during the GP. Then it changed big time by the GPF where she got rid of the interesting opening and streamlined her jump order to what became her usual jumping order….

As for Bolero…that program was never the same every time she performed it. She debuted it at some Fall season pro-am and it started interestingly but it didn’t seem that different from her Aranjuez/Tosca. Then in December she performed a truly choreographically busy version with an even more difficult and long footwork sequence with different spin positions. I wondered if that version was the closest to Dean’s work…

Agreed. Most people forget that Sarah K received the long program music already edited. Sarah also didn’t have as much time to follow up since she had the opening ceremonies to choreograph. That along with everything going on during Kwans Olympic year was not in Kwans favor.

Agreed that the December event was probably closest to Deans work. Her practices were great at Nationals, for what its worth. She never performed an IJS version prior to the qualifying round (added triple flip from steps, spins, holding spiral long enough in LP) which just goes to show the limitations of her training that year.

 

[thvu]

I was rooting for V&M in 2014. I actually thought their Seasons FD evoked feelings of nostalgia, in a slightly melancholic way.

To me, the choreography and music made me think about a couple looking back on their lives together, reliving the moments of glory, reliving loss, reliving what was. So, yes, in a way it was “romantic”, but only in that nostalgic “remember all the times we shared” type of way. I really like the concept of the FD. It had subtlety. It required maturity to skate to.

The one issue I have about choosing such a concept is that it was an Olympic year. The program, to me, was more about their saying goodbye, than about trying to be champions. This was the type of FD you choose if you’re retiring in the year after the Olympics.

 

[Bigbird]

I was rooting for V&M in 2014. I actually thought their Seasons FD evoked feelings of nostalgia, in a slightly melancholic way.

To me, the choreography and music made me think about a couple looking back on their lives together, reliving the moments of glory, reliving loss, reliving what was. So, yes, in a way it was “romantic”, but only in that nostalgic “remember all the times we shared” type of way. I really like the concept of the FD. It had subtlety. It required maturity to skate to.

The one issue I have about choosing such a concept is that it was an Olympic year. The program, to me, was more about their saying goodbye, than about trying to be champions. This was the type of FD you choose if you’re retiring in the year after the Olympics.

Or a farewell tour? I just find it so difficult to watch that program because you know that they know it's beneath them.

 

[canbelto]

Or a farewell tour? I just find it so difficult to watch that program because you know that they know it's beneath them.

I think it's that ... they never sold that program well. Its as if they didn't believe in it, and it showed.

 

[blue_idealist]

I read once that Virtue and Moir wanted to do Romeo and Juliet but Marina talked them out of it. I think they would've fared better with Romeo and Juliet. They either would've been closer to D&W or won the gold over them.

 

[canbelto]

2014 seemed to be an off year for V/M. I don't think they were happy with much, from the programs to the coaching situation, and it showed. They got their mojo back when they moved to Montreal.

 

[Marco]

Slutskaya in 2006. She should've stuck with her 2005 Worlds winning free program. Her Flamenco free was totally forgettable, whereas her "Totentanz" SP was a hit.

Except she didn't even win the short in 2006; and the chicken feeding program was already in its second season in 2005 so I understand why they didn't want to use it again for 2006. Perhaps going back to the 1999 or 2003 free program would work?! Those were some of her better programs. Then again, she wasd practising horribly in 2006 so I doubt it was the program that lost her the gold in Turin.

 

[On My Own]

Just for Olympic seasons, for now:

I'm not too sure V/M's FD let them down. The scoring of the SD already made me think they could have the skate of their lives in the FD and they still wouldn't win (I found that SD to be far superior to any other dance from all the teams competing that entire quad).

I'd honestly say Kwan 1998, Asada 2010, and Kim 2014.

I don't think Kwan's LP would have really got her into Olympic spirits. It's a mesmerizing program, but there's something too esoteric about concepts like "joy" and "angelic grace" that I think would have not worked in front of the Olympic crowd, and would have been hugely affected by Olympic nerves. Made for an outstanding moment at Nationals that season, but just don't think it would have helped her enjoy the Olympics.

Asada's program I think challenged her and really pushed her to do something new (I love that spiral and the way it was used), but trying something that pushes you that far out of your comfort zone isn't ideal for the Olympic season (and it showed - she never quite skated it well that season, apart from Worlds).

Kim's was just too cerebral and private to ever work in front of the Olympic crowd, much like Kwan's. She had the perfect Olympic LP just the season before. Again, great program (and I find the criticisms of her facial expression and demeanour during the program hilarious because they clearly misunderstand what the music even is about), just didn't the sway the judges.

This does mean that I think the skaters should just dumb themselves down for that OGM. Judging notwithstanding, anyway