Could Gracie Gold have been a 5 time World and 2 time Olympic Champion

[butyrskafanatic]

If she were as good a competitor as say Kwan, Witt, or Yu Na Kim. I dont even like her skating but the judges LOVE her skating, and give her huge marks even in the areas I and some others would deem her skills questionable (PCS, especialy categories like interpretation and choreography). Her jumps are technically the best in the world when done correctly, bettter than Medvedeva who is a great jumper but has a flutz and weak double axel. Her spins are excellent. It seems since 2014 the judges have been almost salivating to put her on top had she put it together but she never did. Could she have been the dominant skater over the last 4 years and virtually won everything if she were stronger of mind.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Ah, the joy of hindsight.

Sadly, Gracie's support system, or lack of it, burdened her with more pressure than she could handle.

Maybe staying with her former coach would have helped her achieve her dreams, further than the apparent mess Frank Carroll made of Gracie's skating.

Medvedeva and Zagitova are machines, and can pump out clean free skates on demand. As international judging seems to indicate, technical consistency will help elevate PCS.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Ah, the joy of hindsight.

Sadly, Gracie's support system, or lack of it, burdened her with more pressure than she could handle.

Maybe staying with her former coach would have helped her achieve her dreams, further than the apparent mess Frank Carroll made of Gracie's skating.

Medvedeva and Zagitova are machines, and can pump out clean free skates on demand. As international judging seems to indicate, technical consistency will help elevate PCS.

I agree so it is ironic I would make a thread which kind of indicates what many others were thinking about her and the kind of pressure likely put on her by the USFSA, her coaches, the press, that caused her to crumble in the first place.

I agree on Med. and Zag. The judges were willing to give Gracie the 2016 world title over Med. had she done a clean long program though, or maybe with just 1 mistake, and that was with Med. doing 2 clean skates.

 

[Jammers]

Gracie just didn't have the mental toughness to handle pressure like some of the Russian girls like Med have been able to do. She was wildly inconsistent even before going to Frank and i think she was a perfectionist which is never a good thing. To bad though she was the best pure skater the US had after Michelle and Sasha retired and had the best chance to win a World championship since those two and certainly had the talent to also be an Olympic champion.

 

[ssminnow]

I'm going to go with no, because even if Gracie was the most technically gifted skater of her generation, she never had that "it" factor IMO like Michelle or Yu-Na.

 

[joubertelegant]

Gracie just didn't have the mental toughness to handle pressure like some of the Russian girls like Med have been able to do. She was wildly inconsistent even before going to Frank and i think she was a perfectionist which is never a good thing. To bad though she was the best pure skater the US had after Michelle and Sasha retired and had the best chance to win a World championship since those two and certainly had the talent to also be an Olympic champion.

IMO Gracie had a better chance to win a big event than Sasha. Sasha was arguably tops in artistry, but never in technical ability. Which means she had to skate cleanly and others had to make mistakes for her to win a big event, and given that she was an inconsistent skater herself that was never likely to happen.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I'm going to go with no, because even if Gracie was the most technically gifted skater of her generation, she never had that "it" factor IMO like Michelle or Yu-Na.

I agree with the "it" factor but I am not sure if any of the other current skaters have that either, and she would not have been competing vs Michelle Kwan or Yu Na Kim. Medvedeva maybe? That is debateable I guess. Mao Asada definitely has it and she was competing until 2017, but she was so technically uncompetitive after 2014 it doesnt matter.

 

[Vash01]

This thread would have sounded more realistic if you had substituted Gracie with Kwan.

One could even say that about Sasha Cohen, and I am sure there are other talented skaters. What separates a champion is the mental aspect. We see that in other sports too.

Gracie's career is not over yet. There is hope for her and may be some day she will be one a world and/or Olympic champion. Even if she doesn't, she will be recognized as someone with great talent, hopefully without the asterisk, like 'but...'

I hope she finds happiness, with or without skating. My gut says she will return to skating.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Sasha Cohen never had the potential to dominate. To win maybe yes, but not to dominate. Even when she skated cleanly and perfectly Slutskaya, Kwan, Arakawa, and Hughes were all capable of beating her, that is not a potentially dominant skater. Gracie did have the potential to dominate.

 

[Madhatter]

I'll never understand all that excitement over Gracie.

 

[DimaToe]

No, in a scenario in which Gracie knew how to deliver in both segments of a competition when it mattered, I think she would have been

Still 4th in Sochi

4th, maybe 3rd at 2014 worlds( but judges really wanted Kostner on that podium)

a very close 2nd( maybe 1st) at 2015 worlds because Tuktamysheva’s LP wasn’t exactly stellar

She could have been a world Champion in 2016

She could have been 2nd or 3rd at 2017 worlds

She would have been a medal favorite for PyeongChang if her resume actually looked like that, but I don’t think she would’ve had the TES to hold back Zagitova

Plus if Gracie was a “better” competitor, it’s hard to say how that would have affected the careers or Wagner, Pogorilaya, etc. Would they have been more consistent too?

I think that Gracie would have had 2 or 3 world medals, maybe a world title among them, but Gracie being a 5 time world champion and 2x Olympic champion is a generous overestimation IMO

 

[Areski]

No but with her talent she could have been more successful, that goes without saying. I think we may see Gracie again so everything is possible still.

I think though at least some of her competitive (relative) incapability was not just in her head. I think if she was a better skater she would be better competitor too, you can't just draw out sweeping assumption based on one great skate or competition and explain everything else with pressure even if we know about Gracie's nerves being fragile.

Even with her best skates she would not land higher than 4th in Sochi to be honest.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

No, in a scenario in which Gracie knew how to deliver in both segments of a competition when it mattered, I think she would have been

Still 4th in Sochi

4th, maybe 3rd at 2014 worlds( but judges really wanted Kostner on that podium)

a very close 2nd( maybe 1st) at 2015 worlds because Tuktamysheva’s LP wasn’t exactly stellar

We could have been a world Champion in 2016

She could have been 2nd or 3rd at 2017 worlds

She would have been a medal favorite for PyeongChang if her resume actually looked like that, but I don’t think she would’ve had the TES to hold back Zagitova

Plus if Gracie was a “better” competitor, it’s hard to say how that would have affected the careers or Wagner, Pogorilaya, etc. Would they have been more consistent too?

I think that Gracie would have had 2 or 3 world medals, maybe a world title among them, but Gracie being a 5 time world champion and 2x Olympic champion is a generous overestimation IMO

I think if you take each event independantly those are right. Not cummulatively though. If Grace had won the 2016 worlds and stayed fairly consistent it is unlikely Medvedeva would be getting as much love from the judges as she was by the time of the 2017 worlds.

 

[Vash01]

I am optimistic about Gracie's comeback because Akiko Suzuki made a successful comeback. I don't know the extent of the problem for either one but we could see how happy Akiko looked on the ice after she returned. I hope Gracie can find happiness, on and/or off the ice.

 

[ssminnow]

I agree with the "it" factor but I am not sure if any of the other current skaters have that either, and she would not have been competing vs Michelle Kwan or Yu Na Kim. Medvedeva maybe? That is debateable I guess. Mao Asada definitely has it and she was competing until 2017, but she was so technically uncompetitive after 2014 it doesnt matter.

Undoubtedly Gracie would have been more successful if she competed more like she practiced, but with or without her jumps she is neither artistic nor charismatic on ice. She may still have won a WS here or there but tepid skaters don't *dominate* entire eras.

 

[manhn]

If the US had a better pairs system, yes, Gracie could be a 2 time Olympic champion in the Team Event.

 

[berthesghost]

Ok, I don't think the question has anything to do with Gracie. No one since Henie has 5 world and 2 Oly golds, not even the 3 legends you mention. Kim is the only one who competed under cop, an era that completely changes entire podiums year to year, thus her having the least wins of the 3. Even Med couldn't do 3 euro titles in a row, we'll see how she does at worlds. But in 13 years COP has resulted in 8 different champions. Only Mao has won 3, and only Med won back to back, and none of the 3 COP OGMs won worlds in the same year, but somehow Gracie was supposed to win 5 straight titles plus two OGMs at the same time. Was she also finding a cure for cancer and bringing peace to the middle-east during those same 5 years?

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Kim is the only one who competed under cop, an era that completely changes entire podiums year to year, thus her having the least wins of the 3.

I think Kim having less wins than Kwan and Witt is more due to having a much shorter career. Kwan kept going so long due to her failure to attain Olympic Gold. Witt kept going so long due to the communist East German government demanding it, otherwise would have probably moved to the U.S after 84 and done show skating. Kim for all intents and purposes retired after 2010, even though she came back in little blips here and there.

I dont think you neccessarily have less wins under the new system. Savchenko & Szolkowy have 5 world titles and nobody considers them a GOAT pair. Virtue & Moir and Davis & White together have an endless period of dominance.

 

[MAXSwagg]

I think Kim having less wins than Kwan and Witt is more due to having a much shorter career. Kwan kept going so long due to her failure to attain Olympic Gold. Witt kept going so long due to the communist East German government demanding it, otherwise would have probably moved to the U.S after 84 and done show skating. Kim for all intents and purposes retired after 2010, even though she came back in little blips here and there.

I dont think you neccessarily have less wins under the new system. Savchenko & Szolkowy have 5 world titles and nobody considers them a GOAT pair. Virtue & Moir and Davis & White together have an endless period of dominance.

I think many consider Savchenko/Szolkowy a GOAT pair, including myself (who is a Volosozhar/Trankov fan). Though they probably should’ve gotten silver at 2012 Worlds and V/T gold.

As for Gracie, no. She wasn’t that technically brilliant, although she did have good technique (except for the flip).

 

[antmanb]

Of course this thread has nothing to do with Gracie it has to do with Judge Judy's pseuds talking to each other

 

[berthesghost]

Kim started at 16 due to age restrictions at that time.
From 16 to 22 she went to 6 straight worlds opting to skip only the last.
From 16 to 22 she won 2 gold, 2 silver, 2 bronze.
From 16 to 22 she medaled at both Olys, gold and silver.

Witt started at 14 due to age rules at that time. Only 2 more years than Kim. She didn't medal until 16.
From 16 to 22 she went to 7 straight worlds opting to skip none.
From 16 to 22 she won 4 gold, 2 silver, 1 4th.
From 16 to 22 she medaled at both Olys, gold both times.

Kwan started at 13 due to age rules at that time. She didn't medal until 15, her first gold.
She went to two more worlds until she was 24 (so old!!!) but won her last title at 22.
From 16 to 22 she went to 7 straight worlds opting to skip none.
From 16 to 22 she won 4 gold, 3 silver
From 16 to 22 she medaled at both Olys, silver and bronze.
Means extra 3 years of age eligible skating gave her 1 gold at 15, a bronze at 23 and a 4th at 24.

The 2 Years Kwan and Witt skated before Kim was eligible got them no medals. 15/16 to 22 is when ladies are in their prime apparently.

As for s/s and d/w... Is the question now "would Gracie have won 5 world and 2 olys had she competed in pairs or dance?"

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

Maybe not dominate, but she clearly had the potential to win Worlds at least once, plus a few World and maybe Olympic medals

Or even just some 4CC medals for goodness sake.

Hope she's OK. I also sense she'll come back.

 

[Frau Muller]

No way. Too heavy in her delivery. She never skated like a gazelle, even at her best. She punched out her elements. Did she ever care about her music?

In general, she always seemed to be trying to please marketers and maybe parents, not herself. As spectators, it was never fun.

 

[berthesghost]

Yeah, looking back at her results, 2016 was the only time she ever placed 1st in any segment at any world or oly event, so from 2013 to 2016 it does seem as if Boston was her only good chance to win up until that point.

Results from worlds were 9/5, 5/7, 8/2, 1/6
Olys 4/5

 

[Simone411]

Well, the way I look at it is that there's only been one female from this era to be a 5 time World Champion in which she tied with Carol Heiss Jenkins (1956 through 1960) and that is Michelle Kwan (1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003).

We are fortunate to have seen and witnessed this from Michelle. I was born in 1958, and of course too young to know that Carol Heiss won the World Championships in 1958, 1959 and 1960. The other 2 years she won was in 1956 and 1957.

As for Gracie Gold winning 5 World Championships for the United States, I don't think that will happen. As a matter of fact, I don't believe there will be another female skater from the United States that will win 5 World Championships in my lifetime.

I also will not witness another female skater from the United States winning 9 US National Championships. I believe Michelle will hold that record for several years to come. Maybe after I'm long gone from this earth there will be another Michelle Kwan or Carol Heiss Jenkins to come along. Who knows what the future may hold.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

The ironic thing is Heiss isnt really talked about as one of the greats today. I mean she is noted but there is far more talk about Hamill, Fleming, Yamaguchi, Kwan, even someone like Cohen than Heiss. And watching videos I far prefer the skating of Tenley Albright to Heiss, despite that Heiss has more titles. Albright just looked smoother and more of the "total package" to me.

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

I'll be blunt.
If she had a different coach who could help her skate 2 clean programs in a row at a big event. Sure.
I think she's a talented skater, but the mental toughness issue needs to be fixed.

 

[Simone411]

@butyrskafanatic, you may not consider Carol being one of the greats and I understand that. The point I made was the fact there have only been two US women to have won 5 World Championships and that is Carol Heiss Jenkins and Michelle Kwan. They both tied the record for that.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

I really like Gracie Gold! It seems like I have a tendency to love skaters whose last names start with the letter G! But I think she would have been more likely to win Worlds four times and the Olympics twice.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

I think many consider Savchenko/Szolkowy a GOAT pair, including myself (who is a Volosozhar/Trankov fan). Though they probably should’ve gotten silver at 2012 Worlds and V/T gold.

As for Gracie, no. She wasn’t that technically brilliant, although she did have good technique (except for the flip).

Why are you calling Aliona a goat? That does not seem like a compliment to me and I think she is a very good skater. Her current partner is very tall and has a nice physical presence on the ice.

I agree that Volosozhar and Trankov were a very great pair. My wife and I are both Christian, and we were very pleased to see when they won the Olympics with their Jesus Christ program.