Coaching Changes -- best ways and worst ways to do it

[ZilphaK]

So, my daughter is starting coaching. She coaches Learn To Skate and is great with the little kids, builds good relationships with them, and will start lessons with them.

However, she's now lost at least two private students to other coaches at the rink (I'm not even sure one is a coach, but that's another story) and I'm betting some not nice things are being said to draw students away.

(ETA Deleted my rant here, because it wasn't nice and I'm over it now. Mostly. )

So, as a skater, what do you understand to be the right way and the wrong way to switch coaches?

What would be good reasonable reasons to switch coaches and what are maybe not-so-good or unrealistic reasons to switch coaches?

And if you are a coach, what are your personal "best practices" for taking on a new student or releasing them to another coach?

 

[overedge]

@Jozet I've only lost coaches through retirement or schedule changes - thankfully I've never had to fire one.

When your daughter takes on a student, does she set any kind of formal expectations with the parent, E. G.X amount of notification before the student goes elsewhere? This might not stop the poaching but at least it would give her the opportunity to talk to the parent and see if there is anything that could be resolved to keep the student.

 

[bladesofgorey]

To directly answer your questions:


What are reasonable reasons to switch coaches (you asked for just "good" but that's too difficult to know without a crystal ball)

1.The student or parent has seen a different coach working with other skaters and think they'd like to be coached in the same way

2. The student or parent feels like they just don't click with a coach's personality or teaching style

3. The student or parent sees a different coach's students progressing more quickly than they are (this might not be because they actually are a better coach, but you can't really fault them for seeing if they might be. It's their time/money after all)

4. They want a coach with more experience(this doesn't mean a better coach necessarily but with experience more often than not comes at least some knowledge for better or worse)

5. They want a coach who has higher level students already

6. They want a coach who was a higher level skater themselves or who has had experience coaching high level skaters

7. They just have a sense things could be better and would like to try out someone different


Not so good reasons:

1. They want a high status coach because the coach is high status and that will also make them special by association

2. The current coach cannot in good conscience coach the student/teach the student good skills in the manner the parent is demanding, so the parent tries to find a less ethical/conscientious coach who will be willing to do so

3. The skater/parent refuses to follow good advice for training and safety and takes disagreement with their own ideas about these issues personally, so they find a new coach who won't disagree with them.



Switching students:

Students/parents owe me nothing as a coach (unless they haven't paid yet) other than honestly ("Sally had a trial lesson with Tom and really seemed to respond well, we are going to try lessons with him for a while. Thanks for all your help so far.")


Other coaches don't owe me anything but the socially correct thing to do is to mention that Sally contacted them for lessons, and ask if there's anything they should know about working with Sally (What the old coach could tell them is usually pretty open-ended: potential responses could be that Sally struggles with straightening her free leg or Sally is a perfectionist or whatevs).

 

[ZilphaK]

@Jozet I've only lost coaches through retirement or schedule changes - thankfully I've never had to fire one.

When your daughter takes on a student, does she set any kind of formal expectations with the parent, E. G.X amount of notification before the student goes elsewhere? This might not stop the poaching but at least it would give her the opportunity to talk to the parent and see if there is anything that could be resolved to keep the student.

I just talked to her about this. Our rink (and others, I think) is very "loosey goosey" when it comes to how things are done, so I think that parents may just not be educated on skating etiquette -- I know a lot of new parents aren't, anyway, but our rink is especially lax in getting new parents up to speed on "how things are done." I've suggested that she put together a little New Parent/Skater Welcome sheet, with information on her, what she is capable/comfortable teaching, and some basics for rink and parent etiquette. I suggested that she set up a sort of 8 lesson trial period (maybe that's too much), where she meets with the skater and parents, sets some specific, easy goals, and then meets during and after with the skater and parent to talk about how it went, and go from there.

Maybe set up two or three specific meetings to talk about some other basics -- how often to practice for each lesson, setting up a notebook to keep track of lessons, and looking at different long-term goals and how to choose.

Or does that seem like overkill?

 

[ZilphaK]

To directly answer your questions:


What are reasonable reasons to switch coaches (you asked for just "good" but that's too difficult to know without a crystal ball)

1.The student or parent has seen a different coach working with other skaters and think they'd like to be coached in the same way

2. The student or parent feels like they just don't click with a coach's personality or teaching style

3. The student or parent sees a different coach's students progressing more quickly than they are (this might not be because they actually are a better coach, but you can't really fault them for seeing if they might be. It's their time/money after all)

4. They want a coach with more experience(this doesn't mean a better coach necessarily but with experience more often than not comes at least some knowledge for better or worse)

5. They want a coach who has higher level students already

6. They want a coach who was a higher level skater themselves or who has had experience coaching high level skaters

7. They just have a sense things could be better and would like to try out someone different


Not so good reasons:

1. They want a high status coach because the coach is high status and that will also make them special by association

2. The current coach cannot in good conscience coach the student/teach the student good skills in the manner the parent is demanding, so the parent tries to find a less ethical/conscientious coach who will be willing to do so

3. The skater/parent refuses to follow good advice for training and safety and takes disagreement with their own ideas about these issues personally, so they find a new coach who won't disagree with them.



Switching students:

Students/parents owe me nothing as a coach (unless they haven't paid yet) other than honestly ("Sally had a trial lesson with Tom and really seemed to respond well, we are going to try lessons with him for a while. Thanks for all your help so far.")


Other coaches don't owe me anything but the socially correct thing to do is to mention that Sally contacted them for lessons, and ask if there's anything they should know about working with Sally (What the old coach could tell them is usually pretty open-ended: potential responses could be that Sally struggles with straightening her free leg or Sally is a perfectionist or whatevs).

Thanks, and yes, the distinction between "good" and "reasonable" reasons to switch is well-taken.

With number 3, I'd agree with your parenthetical and say that some times, parents aren't aware of all the other things going on with a skater beyond the lessons they see with a coach. Some skaters are putting in more hours practicing, or have better practice habits, or are getting additional training elsewhere. I had inquired about a coach for my daughter, and then found out the total costs of extra training and lessons with other "specialists" to get to that higher level were not financially feasible for us.

As for number 6, I'd also agree that sometimes a coach's own competition credentials are impressive, but some of the best coaches we've worked with weren't necessarily high level skaters themselves.

 

[ZilphaK]

To directly answer your questions:


What are reasonable reasons to switch coaches (you asked for just "good" but that's too difficult to know without a crystal ball)

1.The student or parent has seen a different coach working with other skaters and think they'd like to be coached in the same way

2. The student or parent feels like they just don't click with a coach's personality or teaching style

3. The student or parent sees a different coach's students progressing more quickly than they are (this might not be because they actually are a better coach, but you can't really fault them for seeing if they might be. It's their time/money after all)

4. They want a coach with more experience(this doesn't mean a better coach necessarily but with experience more often than not comes at least some knowledge for better or worse)

5. They want a coach who has higher level students already

6. They want a coach who was a higher level skater themselves or who has had experience coaching high level skaters

7. They just have a sense things could be better and would like to try out someone different


Not so good reasons:

1. They want a high status coach because the coach is high status and that will also make them special by association

2. The current coach cannot in good conscience coach the student/teach the student good skills in the manner the parent is demanding, so the parent tries to find a less ethical/conscientious coach who will be willing to do so

3. The skater/parent refuses to follow good advice for training and safety and takes disagreement with their own ideas about these issues personally, so they find a new coach who won't disagree with them.



Switching students:

Students/parents owe me nothing as a coach (unless they haven't paid yet) other than honestly ("Sally had a trial lesson with Tom and really seemed to respond well, we are going to try lessons with him for a while. Thanks for all your help so far.")


Other coaches don't owe me anything but the socially correct thing to do is to mention that Sally contacted them for lessons, and ask if there's anything they should know about working with Sally (What the old coach could tell them is usually pretty open-ended: potential responses could be that Sally struggles with straightening her free leg or Sally is a perfectionist or whatevs).

Regarding switching students, if you've had a student for a long time and they want to switch, do you try to talk to them to find out what's wrong, possibly if there's been a miscommunication?

Or at that point, are you already pretty aware that things aren't going well or what the issues are, and don't want to try to talk someone into something they've already seemed to have made up their mind about?

 

[bladesofgorey]

My personality is such that I would not want to try to talk them out of it. The only time I might come even close to saying they should be careful about their choice is if I feel strongly that the coach they are moving to might be a bad decision for their skater given that new coach's style/personality/demeanor and how it fits with my experience with their skater. In which case I might say something like "Coach G can be a little demanding or intimidating for young skaters, you might want to keep an eye on that because I know how sensitive Sally is to criticism" or something. But I'd never try to convince a skater to stay with me if they want to go. It's really dependent on the parents/skater but I might throw in that I enjoyed seeing Sally's progress and hope she keeps working with the new coach to refine the skills we'd targeted. yada yada.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Regarding switching students, if you've had a student for a long time and they want to switch, do you try to talk to them to find out what's wrong, possibly if there's been a miscommunication?

Or at that point, are you already pretty aware that things aren't going well or what the issues are, and don't want to try to talk someone into something they've already seemed to have made up their mind about?

I know this situation from riding. There are some things you can set up in the beginning....like setting goals, benchmarks, what is working and what isn't.

But sometimes some little seed gets planted and takes on a life of it's own. Every once in a while a horse trailer shows up after hours.....and a horse leaves. No notice. No discussion. Or an assistant trainer solicits, convinces and off they go. (oh and asst trainer starts their own business). And people lie, obfuscate and plot.

What is awful with riding and figure skating is that there is an inherent one on one relationship that develops between coach and student and/or trainer and rider.

IMO it is always better to take the high road.

 

[ZilphaK]

My personality is such that I would not want to try to talk them out of it. The only time I might come even close to saying they should be careful about their choice is if I feel strongly that the coach they are moving to might be a bad decision for their skater given that new coach's style/personality/demeanor and how it fits with my experience with their skater. In which case I might say something like "Coach G can be a little demanding or intimidating for young skaters, you might want to keep an eye on that because I know how sensitive Sally is to criticism" or something. But I'd never try to convince a skater to stay with me if they want to go. It's really dependent on the parents/skater but I might throw in that I enjoyed seeing Sally's progress and hope she keeps working with the new coach to refine the skills we'd targeted. yada yada.

Thanks. Yes, makes sense.

My daughter loves working with kids and really enjoys coaching -- and seems good at it, for the level she's coaching -- but the "pro" side of this doesn't come naturally to her, so I'm trying to help her set up some basic introductory routines/expectations with new skaters and parents. If she wants to do this even as a side job, I think she needs to present herself a bit differently -- "adult" a bit more -- and that will, I think, solve some of the issues.

 

[ZilphaK]

I know this situation from riding. There are some things you can set up in the beginning....like setting goals, benchmarks, what is working and what isn't.

But sometimes some little seed gets planted and takes on a life of it's own. Every once in a while a horse trailer shows up after hours.....and a horse leaves. No notice. No discussion. Or an assistant trainer solicits, convinces and off they go. (oh and asst trainer starts their own business). And people lie, obfuscate and plot.

What is awful with riding and figure skating is that there is an inherent one on one relationship that develops between coach and student and/or trainer and rider.

IMO it is always better to take the high road.

High road, yes. I agree. Ugh...I just need to let off steam before I ascend that road.

 

[AxelAnnie]

High road, yes. I agree. Ugh...I just need to let off steam before I ascend that road.

Boy do I know that one!

 

[overedge]

@Jozet one of my coaches has done an info sheet in the past - for new students and for everyone at the start of each season. I think it's an excellent idea. You can lay out E. G. rates, lesson cancellation policies, payment policies, notification on short notice if student can't be there. It doesn't have to be punitive - my coach frames it as "here is what you need to know about me and my work, and what I expect from you, so that we can work together productively and have fun".

Having these things in writing is also really helpful if there's a dispute, E. G. if a parent tries to not pay for a missed lesson because they "didn't know".

 

[hanca]

I have had 4 coaches over the ten or eleven years I skated. I was an adult skater, so my experience may be different than a kid skater’s experience.

The first coach I didn’t feel she cared enough for me. For example, once she asked me if I would be happy to let someone else have my lesson. The skater before me arrived late for his lesson, so he missed his lesson and his parents requested whether she can coach their son in the next time slot (when I was supposed to have lesson). I understand that it was a kid and therefore potentially may have more promise for the future, but he did not have test or competition coming and it was his (or his parents’) fault that he arrived late for his lesson, so why should I give up my lesson so that he can have his? Soon after I told her that I am switching. She was very upset; she didn’t seem to know why I am switching and I wanted to save her feelings, so I made up some other reason (timing issues) and didn’t go too much into it.

The second coach was lovely and taught me a lot, but after about three years the relationship changed from professional relationship to more like a friendship. She is not that much older than I am and with passing time I noticed we started chatting during my lessons a lot. It sort of crept on, at first only ‘how are you’, then a bit more and more and then suddenly I realised that we spent chatting about personal things 5-10 minutes from my lesson. I wasn’t happy to pay for having a chat and a few times we discussed it. I told her that I think we keep chatting too much and that I would like to skate more and chat less. I didn’t make it sound as if it is her fault because I think it was 50:50, so she agreed that we will try to stop all that chatting. It was better for a short time and then it crept back. After we had this discussion about three times, and three times it came back, I got to the conclusion that things won’t improve and switched. The coach was very upset and quite honestly so was I, but this taught me to never mix personal and business relationship.

The third coach was completely different. I went fom one extreme to other extreme. I chose a coach who I knew wouldn’t waste time with personal chatting. She never asked ‘how are you’. I don’t think she actually cared. It was not relevant for her. It was ‘how is it going?’ and she meant the skating, nothing else. This coach is the best technician at our rink and she taught me most from all my coaches. However, the relationship became quite emotionally abusive. I never believed that I could get into such a situation. I knew what was going on, and yet I couldn’t get out of it. Now I have quite a good understanding how people can live with abusive relationships and don’t get out. (Well, at least I didn’t live with her!) During the time with her I made a huge progress, my skating improved so much, but I was frequently coming home upset. I heard from her all sorts of things about me, that I am a shit, ‘don’t f**k with me’ etc. She often shouted, but it actually wasn’t the shouting that was the worst; the worst was when she had the quiet (but deadly) discussion. She also often threatened that she would dump me because she doesn’t need shit skaters, and from time to time she kicked me out of lesson if she thought I am not skating well enough. Skating stopped being fun, but I was progressing and loved the fact that I suddenly skated so much better. It was like an obsession - I was dreading the lessons but I liked how much my skating was improving and I really couldn’t get out of that. Also, my confidence hit rock bottom and I felt like it would be the end of the world if she dropped me, because who would want to coach such a rubbish skater? Besides, most of students from that coach received the same treatment, so it was normal. I felt it was the price I had to pay for improving. After about 2-3 years she kicked me out of the lesson and told me she doesn’t want to see me again that week, so I finally understood I needed to move on.

I am not going to talk about my last coach because someone here on the forum is her friend.

Anyway, why I am saying all this - there may be lots of reasons why people leave their coaches. Sometimes the coaches don’t see it coming when the student leaves, and yet usually there is a reason. When the student leaves, sometimes they give some non-specific reason because they don’t want to hurt the coach’s feelings. For example, timing issues (my job changed, I can’t make it on Fridays anymore and you don’t coach on Thursdays...) Personally I don’t believe one coach can steal students from another coach. If the skater is happy, he/she would never leave the coach. Changing coaches is stressful. So if I was your daughter, @Jozet , I would think carefully about her interractions with the students who left her. Was there something she did or didn’t do? Maybe they were not improving and wanted to see if they can learn from someone else better? Maybe there wasn’t good communication between the coach-student, the student did not feel it was going anywhere, or maybe the coach didn’t even know what the skaters goal are (skating just for fun? Or competing?) . The coach may have wanted too much or too little from the skater. A skater who wants to compete may need a different approach than a skater who is skating for fun and wants the lessons to be fun. Some skater does better with friendly coach, someone else with a strict coach... Maybe the coach was distracted during the lessons. It is ok to have a bad day, but if a coach is disorganised or distracted far too often it can feel like the coach doesn’t care.

It is hard for many people to look at their own practice objectively, for example, the coach number two seemed surprised that I was leaving and yet we had at least three times the discussion about chatting too much during my lessons... was she not aware that we were chatting? Or did she think that because we were ‘nearly friends’, I won’t mind paying for having a chat?

Ups, sorry for such a long post!

 

[Willowway]

I have breezed through the responses above and perhaps have missed something but want to mention - it is considered very bad form for any coach to "poach" another coach's student. By poaching I mean that Coach B approaches a skater/skater's family he/she wants to take from Coach A; the initiation for a coaching change must always come from the skater's side.

I also believe (I will check this out but think I'm right) that the PSA (most experienced coaches are members of this national body) specifically prohibits poaching by its members and members can be brought up on charges for doing it. On a very local basis with coaches who may not be PSA members I suppose ethical behavior can't be enforced. Regardless, it is not acceptable behavior.

 

[ZilphaK]

I have breezed through the responses above and perhaps have missed something but want to mention - it is considered very bad form for any coach to "poach" another coach's student. By poaching I mean that Coach B approaches a skater/skater's family he/she wants to take from Coach A; the initiation for a coaching change must always come from the skater's side.

I also believe (I will check this out but think I'm right) that the PSA (most experienced coaches are members of this national body) specifically prohibits poaching by its members and members can be brought up on charges for doing it. On a very local basis with coaches who may not be PSA members I suppose ethical behavior can't be enforced. Regardless, it is not acceptable behavior.

PSA does now allow coaches to solicit other coaches' students. My daughter is only teaching basic skills kids, and I'm pretty sure her two students left after some not nice, untrue things were said about her by members of certain "peanut galleries." We have a pretty toxic rink situation going on. I can only suggest that my daughter present herself more professionally from the get go and try to counter any nastiness before it happens.

 

[ZilphaK]

I have had 4 coaches over the ten or eleven years I skated. I was an adult skater, so my experience may be different than a kid skater’s experience.

The first coach I didn’t feel she cared enough for me. For example, once she asked me if I would be happy to let someone else have my lesson. The skater before me arrived late for his lesson, so he missed his lesson and his parents requested whether she can coach their son in the next time slot (when I was supposed to have lesson). I understand that it was a kid and therefore potentially may have more promise for the future, but he did not have test or competition coming and it was his (or his parents’) fault that he arrived late for his lesson, so why should I give up my lesson so that he can have his? Soon after I told her that I am switching. She was very upset; she didn’t seem to know why I am switching and I wanted to save her feelings, so I made up some other reason (timing issues) and didn’t go too much into it.

The second coach was lovely and taught me a lot, but after about three years the relationship changed from professional relationship to more like a friendship. She is not that much older than I am and with passing time I noticed we started chatting during my lessons a lot. It sort of crept on, at first only ‘how are you’, then a bit more and more and then suddenly I realised that we spent chatting about personal things 5-10 minutes from my lesson. I wasn’t happy to pay for having a chat and a few times we discussed it. I told her that I think we keep chatting too much and that I would like to skate more and chat less. I didn’t make it sound as if it is her fault because I think it was 50:50, so she agreed that we will try to stop all that chatting. It was better for a short time and then it crept back. After we had this discussion about three times, and three times it came back, I got to the conclusion that things won’t improve and switched. The coach was very upset and quite honestly so was I, but this taught me to never mix personal and business relationship.

The third coach was completely different. I went fom one extreme to other extreme. I chose a coach who I knew wouldn’t waste time with personal chatting. She never asked ‘how are you’. I don’t think she actually cared. It was not relevant for her. It was ‘how is it going?’ and she meant the skating, nothing else. This coach is the best technician at our rink and she taught me most from all my coaches. However, the relationship became quite emotionally abusive. I never believed that I could get into such a situation. I knew what was going on, and yet I couldn’t get out of it. Now I have quite a good understanding how people can live with abusive relationships and don’t get out. (Well, at least I didn’t live with her!) During the time with her I made a huge progress, my skating improved so much, but I was frequently coming home upset. I heard from her all sorts of things about me, that I am a shit, ‘don’t f**k with me’ etc. She often shouted, but it actually wasn’t the shouting that was the worst; the worst was when she had the quiet (but deadly) discussion. She also often threatened that she would dump me because she doesn’t need shit skaters, and from time to time she kicked me out of lesson if she thought I am not skating well enough. Skating stopped being fun, but I was progressing and loved the fact that I suddenly skated so much better. It was like an obsession - I was dreading the lessons but I liked how much my skating was improving and I really couldn’t get out of that. Also, my confidence hit rock bottom and I felt like it would be the end of the world if she dropped me, because who would want to coach such a rubbish skater? Besides, most of students from that coach received the same treatment, so it was normal. I felt it was the price I had to pay for improving. After about 2-3 years she kicked me out of the lesson and told me she doesn’t want to see me again that week, so I finally understood I needed to move on.

I am not going to talk about my last coach because someone here on the forum is her friend.

Anyway, why I am saying all this - there may be lots of reasons why people leave their coaches. Sometimes the coaches don’t see it coming when the student leaves, and yet usually there is a reason. When the student leaves, sometimes they give some non-specific reason because they don’t want to hurt the coach’s feelings. For example, timing issues (my job changed, I can’t make it on Fridays anymore and you don’t coach on Thursdays...) Personally I don’t believe one coach can steal students from another coach. If the skater is happy, he/she would never leave the coach. Changing coaches is stressful. So if I was your daughter, @Jozet , I would think carefully about her interractions with the students who left her. Was there something she did or didn’t do? Maybe they were not improving and wanted to see if they can learn from someone else better? Maybe there wasn’t good communication between the coach-student, the student did not feel it was going anywhere, or maybe the coach didn’t even know what the skaters goal are (skating just for fun? Or competing?) . The coach may have wanted too much or too little from the skater. A skater who wants to compete may need a different approach than a skater who is skating for fun and wants the lessons to be fun. Some skater does better with friendly coach, someone else with a strict coach... Maybe the coach was distracted during the lessons. It is ok to have a bad day, but if a coach is disorganised or distracted far too often it can feel like the coach doesn’t care.

It is hard for many people to look at their own practice objectively, for example, the coach number two seemed surprised that I was leaving and yet we had at least three times the discussion about chatting too much during my lessons... was she not aware that we were chatting? Or did she think that because we were ‘nearly friends’, I won’t mind paying for having a chat?

Ups, sorry for such a long post!

Thanks. One of our local rinks is closing, and pools of new skaters are drying up. There's been a lot of student poaching going on even among longtime coaches, and my daughter is an easy target because she's new, but also because I think she's a trusting kid and would never think that people who have been her friends would solicit her students. Unfortunately, she's going to have to look at this more from a business perspective. There are things she can work on, of course. But she's a pretty self-reflective kid, and more importantly, she has a pretty fine tuned sense of right and wrong.

Also, all her students and parents are new to skating. Brand new. I think there needs to be more parent education all around, regarding general etiquette as well as realistic expectations and training timelines. It's just too easy for some coaches to sell a dream they just aren't ever going to be able to deliver. And I know that, because I've had a few sales pitches lobbed my way. Luckily, I knew the real dollar price attached to those sales pitches, even though they were being sold as something much cheaper. But general parent education is a whole other topic, perhaps.

 

[hanca]

Thanks. One of our local rinks is closing, and pools of new skaters are drying up. There's been a lot of student poaching going on even among longtime coaches, and my daughter is an easy target because she's new, but also because I think she's a trusting kid and would never think that people who have been her friends would solicit her students. Unfortunately, she's going to have to look at this more from a business perspective. There are things she can work on, of course. But she's a pretty self-reflective kid, and more importantly, she has a pretty fine tuned sense of right and wrong.

Also, all her students and parents are new to skating. Brand new. I think there needs to be more parent education all around, regarding general etiquette as well as realistic expectations and training timelines. It's just too easy for some coaches to sell a dream they just aren't ever going to be able to deliver. And I know that, because I've had a few sales pitches lobbed my way. Luckily, I knew the real dollar price attached to those sales pitches, even though they were being sold as something much cheaper. But general parent education is a whole other topic, perhaps.

Would the students leave if they were happy with their current situation? I know coaches are often thinking about poaching, worrying that other coaches may poach their students. At least, I know my 1st, 2nd and 4th coach were. (Not sure about my 3rd coach because we never spoke about that). But from a skater’s perspective, I would have never left a coach if I was happy with my skating situation, and I know my skating friends think the same. So those who ‘were poached’, they were never happy with their situation in the first place and were considering leaving, so is it really poaching? Students are not some brainless dolls that just lay somewhere on the bench and anyone can pick them up and ‘steal’ them. They have eyes and see what’s going around them. They usually have a relationship with their current coach and some level of loyalty towards him or her. (E.g., I never spoke against my 3rd coach about what’s going on). So if your daughter’s skaters are leaving, there really is a reason, and I wouldn’t blame other coaches for poaching. I mean, it is the easiest to put the blame somewhere else, but if she wants to know the truth, it always helps to start with yourself. You said she is a new coach. Maybe she is still inexperienced as a coach. That means that the other coaches may have better methods of coaching, better way of explaining things, more strategies how to try things if things are not working. When my second coach taught me a sit spin and it took quite a few different approaches before I got it, but we managed within a few months. My friend was learning it for a year with her coach, and her coach has always given her the same advice and repeated the same words. After a year my friend was very discouraged. I told her in my words what I was doing - the thing that helped me. My friend learned the sit spin that day. Sometimes coaching is about passing on information - if the skater is not getting what the coach is saying, the coach needs to describe it different way and not every coach can do that.

 

[Clarice]

PSA does now allow coaches to solicit other coaches' students. My daughter is only teaching basic skills kids, and I'm pretty sure her two students left after some not nice, untrue things were said about her by members of certain "peanut galleries." We have a pretty toxic rink situation going on. I can only suggest that my daughter present herself more professionally from the get go and try to counter any nastiness before it happens.

Regarding the PSA policy, I'm going to rephrase that a little. PSA doesn't exactly "allow" coaches to solicit other coaches' students as much as they no longer forbid it. They had to remove the previous language for legal reasons. Although we can no longer be censured for poaching, it is still considered bad form. Here's what is now said:
The PSA has agreed to change its Code of Ethics and will not adopt, encourage its members to follow, or enforce any Code of Ethics provision relating to solicitation of coaching work that does not comply with the FTC Consent Order.
Also this:
In order to protect the safety and development of athletes, no Member shall engage in any in-person solicitation of an athlete while the athlete is actively engaged in a lesson or while “performing.” “Performing” means skating or preparing to skate in an event at an arena in a test, competition, or exhibition, and includes meeting with coaches, locker room time, practice skating, and warmup skating.

I would encourage your daughter to take the PSA's Foundations of Coaching course if she hasn't already. Having some professional credentials can only help her get established.

 

[ZilphaK]

Would the students leave if they were happy with their current situation? I know coaches are often thinking about poaching, worrying that other coaches may poach their students. At least, I know my 1st, 2nd and 4th coach were. (Not sure about my 3rd coach because we never spoke about that). But from a skater’s perspective, I would have never left a coach if I was happy with my skating situation, and I know my skating friends think the same. So those who ‘were poached’, they were never happy with their situation in the first place and were considering leaving, so is it really poaching? Students are not some brainless dolls that just lay somewhere on the bench and anyone can pick them up and ‘steal’ them. They have eyes and see what’s going around them. They usually have a relationship with their current coach and some level of loyalty towards him or her. (E.g., I never spoke against my 3rd coach about what’s going on). So if your daughter’s skaters are leaving, there really is a reason, and I wouldn’t blame other coaches for poaching. I mean, it is the easiest to put the blame somewhere else, but if she wants to know the truth, it always helps to start with yourself. You said she is a new coach. Maybe she is still inexperienced as a coach. That means that the other coaches may have better methods of coaching, better way of explaining things, more strategies how to try things if things are not working. When my second coach taught me a sit spin and it took quite a few different approaches before I got it, but we managed within a few months. My friend was learning it for a year with her coach, and her coach has always given her the same advice and repeated the same words. After a year my friend was very discouraged. I told her in my words what I was doing - the thing that helped me. My friend learned the sit spin that day. Sometimes coaching is about passing on information - if the skater is not getting what the coach is saying, the coach needs to describe it different way and not every coach can do that.

I agree with what you are saying. We've had to change coaches after a six years when the coach would not allow my daughter to take lessons with a specialty coach to improve in a specific skill her coach was struggling to teach. We didn't want to leave her. It got bad.

I also know the situation at our rinks and what has been said to me about my own kids as a lure. I know coaches have told kids that synchronized skating is for skaters who can't skate "for real" and to quit taking lessons with the synchro coaches; I've also heard a coach tell me early on that my kid would never have a chance at singles nationals, so she should join synchro, instead. I've had people approach me and swear to me they could take my son to nationals. This is a false claim, and he doesn't want to figure skate, anyway (I'm forcing him as a trade-off for playing hockey) -- this doesn't stop some pros from twirling medals in my face, and if I were a newer parent in a strange sport, suddenly spending a lot of money, I may have panicked that I was making a wrong decision.

I do appreciate what you're saying. But my daughter was in the process of building relationships with students, kids and parents who seemed very happy with her, and all of a sudden, they are on the ice with another coach and not talking to her. I'm pretty fair-minded when it comes to assessing my kids. Again, there are things she is going to do to build her resume and counter the bad eggs, and giving educational materials and USFSA FAQs to parents from the get-go is going to be one of them.

She currently teaches Learn To Skate and does a great job getting her skaters through the levels with solid skills. She's focusing on working with Basic Skills kids, some freestyle levels, and Basic Skills competitions. She is in no way teaching "above her head" and does not want to. I'm frustrated for her because the same stuff that has been going on is now being directed at her. The culture at our rink needs to change, and I just want to help her find ways to do that, at least for herself.

 

[ZilphaK]

Regarding the PSA policy, I'm going to rephrase that a little. PSA doesn't exactly "allow" coaches to solicit other coaches' students as much as they no longer forbid it. They had to remove the previous language for legal reasons. Although we can no longer be censured for poaching, it is still considered bad form. Here's what is now said:
The PSA has agreed to change its Code of Ethics and will not adopt, encourage its members to follow, or enforce any Code of Ethics provision relating to solicitation of coaching work that does not comply with the FTC Consent Order.
Also this:
In order to protect the safety and development of athletes, no Member shall engage in any in-person solicitation of an athlete while the athlete is actively engaged in a lesson or while “performing.” “Performing” means skating or preparing to skate in an event at an arena in a test, competition, or exhibition, and includes meeting with coaches, locker room time, practice skating, and warmup skating.

I would encourage your daughter to take the PSA's Foundations of Coaching course if she hasn't already. Having some professional credentials can only help her get established.

Thanks. I did notice their link to Coaching Ethics that talked about solicitation is now down. She is a PSA member and working through credentials.

That said...sigh...I think the PSA has an important role and credentialing is necessary, for a lot of reasons.

However, I don't know that parents always know -- or put the time into knowing -- just what those credentials mean and how they should be weighted in making coaching decisions. My daughter was working with several coaches when she was training triples and competing. One of the coaches who didn't have much to do with her jump training asked for signatures stating that they coached my daughter to a specific skill level. I had a bit of a side-eye moment there. Same thing when people say they've competed at certain levels as a resume line. Yes, it means something. But I also have parents seriously asking me if my son is training for the Olympics when he does a two-footed double lutz or wonky camel spin, so again, I think the learning curve is very, very steep for parents who weren't themselves in the sport.

But again, I think it falls to USFSA and clubs to help educate new parents. I like what Skating Club of Boston has on their website regarding choosing a coach. I also think just being upfront with parents about the time and money commitments it takes to get to X level is important; not to discourage, but to help in goal-setting.

 

[clairecloutier]

The whole situation of changing coaches is just so awkward. It's one of the reasons my daughter isn't skating any more (although not the main reason). I have to agree with @hanca that usually when people want to switch, they probably have a reason for wanting to. I feel that coaching is as much about the interpersonal fit as actual skating knowledge/skills, especially at the beginner level. One thing I would suggest to your daughter is to invest time in her relationship with her students' parents. Talk with them for a couple minutes after each lesson, and explain what she's teaching and why. Listen (really listen) to their concerns and questions. My daughter had 2 coaches and I felt like I couldn't communicate very well with either of them. (Whereas I've had great communication with my own coach since day 1.)

 

[concorde]

Talk with them for a couple minutes after each lesson, and explain what she's teaching and why. Listen (really listen) to their concerns and questions.

I agree with this in concept but am not sure how realistic that is. Here skaters get a xx minute lesson and the coach's next student immediately follows. To be able to talk, the coach would have to end the actual lesson at least 5 minutes early to get to speak with the parents. Not sure if all parents want to pay for that.

Communication is key. But is after each lesson really necessary? I think maybe once a month is more realistic for both parties.

 

[ioana]

I agree with this in concept but am not sure how realistic that is. Here skaters get a xx minute lesson and the coach's next student immediately follows. To be able to talk, the coach would have to end the actual lesson at least 5 minutes early to get to speak with the parents. Not sure if all parents want to pay for that.

Communication is key. But is after each lesson really necessary? I think maybe once a month is more realistic for both parties.

Most coaches at my rink have their post-lesson followups during ice resurfaces, between freestyle sessions. So their students are either taking off skates and leaving or staying for the next session, but either way that's when they catch up on what their kid needs to focus on when they skate by themselves, what is progressing according to plan, etc. Agreed that might not always be doable depending on how many lessons were scheduled, but it seems to work reasonably well for most coaching arrangements I have seen.

 

[concorde]

Ice cuts at our rink are not after every freestyle session. We get one every 3 hours (4 freestyle sessions) so waiting for an ice cut may or may not work.

I used to teach swim lessons and we had 5 minutes between classes. No matter how much I sometimes wanted to talk to a parents, sometimes going to the ladies room had a higher priority.

 

[ZilphaK]

I agree with this in concept but am not sure how realistic that is. Here skaters get a xx minute lesson and the coach's next student immediately follows. To be able to talk, the coach would have to end the actual lesson at least 5 minutes early to get to speak with the parents. Not sure if all parents want to pay for that.

Communication is key. But is after each lesson really necessary? I think maybe once a month is more realistic for both parties.

I know as a Girl Scout leader that right after meetings, everyone wanted to talk to me at once, some matters trivial, some important, and meanwhile I was trying to keep track of kids, etc. I usually remembered about half of what people asked me. I got the same feeling when I tried to catch a coach between lessons, and if there was an ice cut, there were a bunch of other people trying to get coach's attention as well.

I suggested to my daughter to ask that her skaters bring a notebook so she could write notes from the lesson, what to work on, etc. Then to schedule a 5-10 minute meeting once a month, maybe set three-month larger goal-setting meetings. Of course, parents could contact her via email as well.

That is definitely more than she got at times as a new skater. I think it could set a good precedent at our rink to be more formalized in meeting with parents and keeping kids and parents in the loop.

 

[concorde]

I know as a Girl Scout leader . . .

Sorry to go off topic but another Girl Scout leader! Have you ever notice how many other skating moms are also Girl Scout leaders? We must be the crazies (in a positive way).

 

[vesperholly]

My daughter was working with several coaches when she was training triples and competing. One of the coaches who didn't have much to do with her jump training asked for signatures stating that they coached my daughter to a specific skill level. I had a bit of a side-eye moment there.

The PSA requires that a coach either passed a certain test yourself or coached a skater to a certain level to get different rankings. It doesn't necessarily mean that the coach taught them their triples or even jumps specifically - could be a coach that focused on spins. (Unless this coach was specifically asking you to verify that they taught your daughter triples.)

Here are the PSA ranking requirements: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1PvEt34J2QPBd-gkEq_Q0w8ykdRwBZJNk

 

[ZilphaK]

The PSA requires that a coach either passed a certain test yourself or coached a skater to a certain level to get different rankings. It doesn't necessarily mean that the coach taught them their triples or even jumps specifically - could be a coach that focused on spins. (Unless this coach was specifically asking you to verify that they taught your daughter triples.)

Here are the PSA ranking requirements: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1PvEt34J2QPBd-gkEq_Q0w8ykdRwBZJNk

OK, that makes more sense. It wasn't exactly how it was presented to us, so I probably misunderstood.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I have found coaches who poach students are very good at using parent's lack of knowledge about the sport to spin things their way. Usually the parents are quite gullible and depend on those around them to "educate" them about the sport, whether that be parents around the rink, judges, committee members or coaches. Unfortunately a lot of what they learn comes from gossip and not facts. So newbies to the sport are easy targets.

There has been a lot of information in this thread which is good. The one thing I would probably reassure your daughter that she probably shouldn't take it too personally and to just be professional and set up a good rapport with the skaters. Coaching/student relationships are so personal. But as long as the skaters feel they are progressing and having fun at the same time, they will latch onto the coach, no matter what others around may do. Also you can't do much about how others behave. Although if what is being said to take away skaters gets back to you, then deal with that off the ice.

 

[ZilphaK]

I have found coaches who poach students are very good at using parent's lack of knowledge about the sport to spin things their way. Usually the parents are quite gullible and depend on those around them to "educate" them about the sport, whether that be parents around the rink, judges, committee members or coaches. Unfortunately a lot of what they learn comes from gossip and not facts. So newbies to the sport are easy targets.

There has been a lot of information in this thread which is good. The one thing I would probably reassure your daughter that she probably shouldn't take it too personally and to just be professional and set up a good rapport with the skaters. Coaching/student relationships are so personal. But as long as the skaters feel they are progressing and having fun at the same time, they will latch onto the coach, no matter what others around may do. Also you can't do much about how others behave. Although if what is being said to take away skaters gets back to you, then deal with that off the ice.

Thanks. I was really quite ticked off about it, but since talking to my daughter and helping her put together a game plan, I've cooled down. It's just been so hard in our area with fewer and fewer skaters getting on the ice. I understand this is all coming from a place of people panicking and fear for their jobs.