Chantastic....the return of Patrick

LarrySK8

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431
His FS was outstanding!

The scores he received in PCS and for +GOE, however, were a F&*&^*&^%*&%king joke, and I don't think the judges are doing him any favors.

His base was only around 74 points, but they gave him 20 points of +GOE. Judges gave him 10.0 for SS, essentially saying that he can not be any better and that this was perfection. It wasn't and I feel it hurts him to send that message.

Great job, Chan; but unbelievably bad judging at Skate Canada. It's infuriating.
 

Debrah

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2,060
Actually I felt his PCS should have been much higher given his overall skating skills, speed and flow were simply at a different and much higher level than anyone else in the field... The fact he had an actual program delivered so confidently helped too. Just sayin... Apples, oranges, people see things differently...
 

jenny12

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6,518
If anyone deserves a 10 for Skating Skills, I think it's Patrick Chan. I thought there was a clear difference between his speed, flow, and edging across the ice and everyone else's. If Patrick Chan does not deserve a 10 for Skating Skills, then who does?
 

Seerek

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Messages
5,328
If anyone deserves a 10 for Skating Skills, I think it's Patrick Chan. I thought there was a clear difference between his speed, flow, and edging across the ice and everyone else's. If Patrick Chan does not deserve a 10 for Skating Skills, then who does?
That's why it's amazing to me how many posters there are out there who will say things like:

"for me the emotion is flat" (a comment from the Skating Lesson)

"there's something sterile--for the lack of a better word--about his performances" (a posting from Twitter).

"I often find myself at odds with what is supposed to be "pure skating;" personality and performance quality is paramount" (another message board)

For me, there's nothing sterile or unemotional about watching good skating skills at work (which is the #1 thing a viewer watching a competitive program should be looking out for in the first place). To somewhat paraphrase Toller Cranston, Patrick's skating skills by itself IS the presentation. Because of that, I actually would recommend Patrick never choose a character-driven or heavily theme-based program because it would actually detract from focusing on the skating skills.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
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37,262
I would say that Patrick has acquired wonderful presentation and IN/E, on top of his unmatched SS. He really responds to music and does Chopin justice--not an easy feat to accomplish. But the IN/E portion is the more subjective one, although I could walk someone through this program and point out where (everywhere!) Patrick responds to a musical highlight, matches the music with his movement, etc.

And of course his flow matches that of Chopin so well. It's like watching one continuous movement become another seamlessly, not a series of discrete poses you see with other skaters. :swoon:
 

VGThuy

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29,873
It's weird to me because if Chan didn't deserve 10.0s or high 9.0s for skating skills then nobody who has ever existed in skating deserves them. I mean I shouldn't compare disciplines but if the likes of Davis/White and Virtue/Moir received 10.0s in certain PCS categories (both teams I really enjoyed and the latter I loved) then it's not ridiculous for Chan to receive 10.0s for skating skills and even the performance/execution as he executed the elements nearly perfectly. I mean maybe people are imagining this hypothetical skater who has better skating skills and execution than what Chan gave for that LP, but nobody will get a ten if we play that game. Despite how it was sold and how people think about it, PCS is all about comparing skaters and giving scores that way rather than this idealized version of the perfect PCS skater. It would be impossible otherwise because where would those scores come from? The judges need context to give out a PCS score and I think the context comes from PCS descriptions which are then filtered through comparing a skater to other skaters (current and past competitors).
 
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Emdee

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2,182
My comments about Johnny and Patrick were not limited to this commentary. It's an opinion I developed over the years.
Brezina, Hanyu, Takahashi etc have all praised Patrick and admired his skating at various times. Johnny IMO provided some back handed compliments.

Toller made his comments in the nicest possible way. I felt the same way intensely jealous when I read some of the great poets knowing I could never measure up to them.
 

Justathoughtabl

Well-Known Member
Messages
635
My comments about Johnny and Patrick were not limited to this commentary. It's an opinion I developed over the years.
Brezina, Hanyu, Takahashi etc have all praised Patrick and admired his skating at various times. Johnny IMO provided some back handed compliments.
Johnny made some comments when Patrick was his rival, and when, frankly, he wasn't the only one who thought Patrick was overrated. He may have also been reacting to some less-than-kind things Patrick said about other skaters, including him:

"If you were watching yesterday, Johnny Weir put the flowers on (his) head," Chan said."That's like a big no-no. You don't do that. You have to have some kind of professionalism and that's just kind of- you're making fun and you know, giving it a bad image, I think, in my mind. It's something that you don't do. You're supposed to be proper." [http://hotbladeshotpassion.blogspot.com/2010/02/patrick-chan-barks-against-johnny-weir.html]

Johnny seems to be one of many who have changed their minds about Patrick's skating over the years.
 

Allskate

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Messages
10,950
I would say that Patrick has acquired wonderful presentation and IN/E, on top of his unmatched SS. He really responds to music and does Chopin justice--not an easy feat to accomplish. But the IN/E portion is the more subjective one, although I could walk someone through this program and point out where (everywhere!) Patrick responds to a musical highlight, matches the music with his movement, etc.
ITA. It's the interpretation and the expression that have really improved. I've always thought that he had phenomenal skating skills and good choreography. He wasn't weak on the interpretation, but that just wasn't as good as the rest of the PCS. I definitely see a significant change. I'm really glad to see that and to have him competing again. I don't have any problem with him getting substantially higher components scores than the others.
 

kwanoverrated

Banned Member
Messages
1,961
It's weird to me because if Chan didn't deserve 10.0s or high 9.0s for skating skills then nobody who has ever existed in skating deserves them. I mean I shouldn't compare disciplines but if the likes of Davis/White and Virtue/Moir received 10.0s in certain PCS categories (both teams I really enjoyed and the latter I loved) then it's not ridiculous for Chan to receive 10.0s for skating skills and even the performance/execution as he executed the elements nearly perfectly. I mean maybe people are imagining this hypothetical skater who has better skating skills and execution than what Chan gave for that LP, but nobody will get a ten if we play that game. Despite how it was sold and how people think about it, PCS is all about comparing skaters and giving scores that way rather than this idealized version of the perfect PCS skater. It would be impossible otherwise because where would those scores come from? The judges need context to give out a PCS score and I think the context comes from PCS descriptions which are then filtered through comparing a skater to other skaters (current and past competitors).
In fairness it is not like nobody has ever opined the PCS of Davis & white and Virtue & Moir (particularly D&W) were ridiculous.

Skate Canada typically gives higher marks to their own, and it is pretty much known all Canadian skaters will get higher marks in Canada than they would anywhere else for the exact same performanes. Weaver & Poje getting huge marks and beating a superb Shibutanis set of performances, when just weeks ago in Finlandia the judges thought their programs were utter garbage is even greater proof of that than Chan. Still Chan looked excellent in his first event back, and that is much more important than scrutinizing the marks IMO.
 

alilou

Ubercavorter
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6,252
In fairness it is not like nobody has ever opined the PCS of Davis & white and Virtue & Moir (particularly D&W) were ridiculous.

Skate Canada typically gives higher marks to their own, and it is pretty much known all Canadian skaters will get higher marks in Canada than they would anywhere else for the exact same performanes. Weaver & Poje getting huge marks and beating a superb Shibutanis set of performances, when just weeks ago in Finlandia the judges thought their programs were utter garbage is even greater proof of that than Chan. Still Chan looked excellent in his first event back, and that is much more important than scrutinizing the marks IMO.
It may be "pretty much known all Canadian skaters will get higher marks in Canada than they would anywhere else for the exact same performances." but it is a myth and it is nonsense. Perhaps you should look at the statistics before you (and many others) repeat this myth ad nauseum. It is only known because everyone keeps saying it, but statistics prove there is no truth to it. Do you think all the judges at Skate Canada are Canadian?
kwanfan1818 did the research. The statistics show the truth. Should you care to take a look at the statistics rather than just repeating what is "pretty much known" you'll find kwanfan1818's analysis in post 51 on this page: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/from-russia-with-love-21-autumn-into-winter-2015.96796/page-2

When you say Skate Canada typically gives higher marks to their own what do you mean? Do you mean that the judges at the Skate Canada competition give higher marks to Canadians? Were all the judges at Skate Canada Canadian? Were any of them?
Or do you mean that the judges appointed to international competitions by Skate Canada give higher marks to their own. Do judges from other countries never do this? Also it is impossible for you to know this since judging is anonymous and no one knows which judge gave which marks, so why would you make such a statement?
 

Corianna

Active Member
Messages
441
Just back from Lethbridge and I could have flown home without the plane. I think there were three standing o's for every flight of free programs. As for PAtrick's free, I didn't know that I could hold my breath for four minutes and thirty seconds. A thousand other people could too. He was totally focused from the moment he stepped on the ice, and completely drained afterwards. His feeling of relief was almost tangible... he wasn't an idiot to try to come back, - he'd won the battle that he was afraid would be too long a campaign.
As for the 10's, those marks are relative - and the judges had left themselves no where else to go after a number of good skates. I suspect now everyones PC marks will go down a bit to leave a bit more room at the top.

Hanyu skate was wonderful too, can't wait to see it when it has a few more miles. And Nam's was very good.
 

Scrufflet

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,185
Just back from Lethbridge and I could have flown home without the plane. I think there were three standing o's for every flight of free programs. As for PAtrick's free, I didn't know that I could hold my breath for four minutes and thirty seconds. A thousand other people could too. He was totally focused from the moment he stepped on the ice, and completely drained afterwards. His feeling of relief was almost tangible... he wasn't an idiot to try to come back, - he'd won the battle that he was afraid would be too long a campaign.
As for the 10's, those marks are relative - and the judges had left themselves no where else to go after a number of good skates. I suspect now everyones PC marks will go down a bit to leave a bit more room at the top.

Hanyu skate was wonderful too, can't wait to see it when it has a few more miles. And Nam's was very good.
What a fabulous experience! So glad you had it!
 

bbkenn

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Messages
1,674
In fairness it is not like nobody has ever opined the PCS of Davis & white and Virtue & Moir (particularly D&W) were ridiculous.

Skate Canada typically gives higher marks to their own, and it is pretty much known all Canadian skaters will get higher marks in Canada than they would anywhere else for the exact same performanes. Weaver & Poje getting huge marks and beating a superb Shibutanis set of performances, when just weeks ago in Finlandia the judges thought their programs were utter garbage is even greater proof of that than Chan. Still Chan looked excellent in his first event back, and that is much more important than scrutinizing the marks IMO.
It may be "pretty much known all Canadian skaters will get higher marks in Canada than they would anywhere else for the exact same performances." but it is a myth and it is nonsense. Perhaps you should look at the statistics before you (and many others) repeat this myth ad nauseum. It is only known because everyone keeps saying it, but statistics prove there is no truth to it. Do you think all the judges at Skate Canada are Canadian?
kwanfan1818 did the research. The statistics show the truth. Should you care to take a look at the statistics rather than just repeating what is "pretty much known" you'll find kwanfan1818's analysis in post 51 on this page: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/from-russia-with-love-21-autumn-into-winter-2015.96796/page-2

When you say Skate Canada typically gives higher marks to their own what do you mean? Do you mean that the judges at the Skate Canada competition give higher marks to Canadians? Were all the judges at Skate Canada Canadian? Were any of them?
Or do you mean that the judges appointed to international competitions by Skate Canada give higher marks to their own. Do judges from other countries never do this? Also it is impossible for you to know this since judging is anonymous and no one knows which judge gave which marks, so why would you make such a statement?
Thank you for writing this. I get tired of reading about these stupid myths about Skate Canada as well and I appreciate that you wrote this.
 

Allskate

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Messages
10,950
As for the 10's, those marks are relative - and the judges had left themselves no where else to go after a number of good skates. I suspect now everyones PC marks will go down a bit to leave a bit more room at the top.
Yes, the scores are relative. I don't get why people get so upset with really high PCS scores. Is it because the number 10 is involved? People don't get nearly as up in arms about a +3 GOE. Whether it's +3 or a 10 on one of the components, it's the highest you can get, but it's really just relative to other scores.
 

screech

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Messages
6,165
As for the 10's, those marks are relative - and the judges had left themselves no where else to go after a number of good skates. I suspect now everyones PC marks will go down a bit to leave a bit more room at the top.
There was a lot of room between Hanyu and Chan's PCS, so lower than 10s could have been given, if deserved. And IMO Hanyu's LP was completely empty. I saw very little choreography in there, compared to what he usually does, and unless something changes, he'll stick with 8s for that program.
 

kwanoverrated

Banned Member
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1,961
There was a lot of room between Hanyu and Chan's PCS, so lower than 10s could have been given, if deserved. And IMO Hanyu's LP was completely empty. I saw very little choreography in there, compared to what he usually does, and unless something changes, he'll stick with 8s for that program.
His fall was also very disruptive.
 

Debrah

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2,060
If you want to understand just how devoid of choreo Hanyu's FS was at SC, I suggest you watch his practice skate the one where he just marked his jumps; the 1st part of the program was just mostly crossover's with some windmill arms for drama/distraction from what his feet are doing, these very simple basic steps are used to set up the big tricks, but at least during practice it was done with more speed since his energy was not going into jumping/spinning. The lack of intricate choreo is maybe to be expected for these ultra difficult jumping passes, as well as some sloppiness with his execution due to comfort level with new programs and issues of early season conditioning. I am sure these SC flaws will eventually be addressed as Hanyu's season progresses. It was still a remarkable athletic feat for which he was duly rewarded. I am equally sure Chan realizes he will need to skate his SP clean and also up his TES ante in the free as well to remain firmly ahead of the chase pack.

Perhaps if folks watched the event live, or watched vids on large screens (not tiny phone, or tiny laptop screens) all without experiencing livestream freezing issues that simply don't give you proper idea of actual speed and flow across the ice, as well as the magical spell Chan cast with his FS, there would be a lot less whining about the judge's marks...
 
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pocoloco

Active Member
Messages
80
Was Chan overmarked? I would give him a 10 in skating skills, he remains untouched in that department (to no one's surprise, surely). His programs in the past have been more intricate than this one choreographically/transition-wise, although it really was a "lightning in a bottle" type of performance so I can see why the judges went so high with his marks to reflect the overall impression of the program. His spin GOE could've been lower, but it wouldn't have mattered in the overall result.
There was a lot of room between Hanyu and Chan's PCS, so lower than 10s could have been given, if deserved. And IMO Hanyu's LP was completely empty. I saw very little choreography in there, compared to what he usually does, and unless something changes, he'll stick with 8s for that program.
Hanyu's FP this season is the opposite of empty, he's suffering from the Fernandez Transitions Oversaturation Syndrome which lead to a sloppy mess of a program. It's eons more choreographically nuanced than his Phaaaaaaaantom of the Opera from last season, so if he can get better conditioning, there's a lot of intricate turns into jumps and spread eagles (as transitions between quads, even) that can highlight the music, plus his choreographic step sequence here was performed with the strength of a tired and wet kitten. But that's a monstrous if.

ETA: I'm confused at some of these comments, how exactly is Chan's setup for his 4T+3T, 3A, 4T (popped into 3T) less empty than Hanyu's setup for his 4S, 4T, and 3F? I'm a fan of Chan but I see a difference between quality and difficulty.
 
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PeterG

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12,484
I watched Patrick's Skate Canada long program before I finished recording the broadcast on TSN. I had to fast-forward through the program to watch Yuzuru and then fast-forward more to see Patrick. I also recorded NBC's broadcast, when I watched both men's programs again. Then when it was time to watch the TSN recording of all the other men, I watched Patrick's LP a third time. :D Anybody watch it more times than me? I feel that of all the times when there has been a battle between the top men, that this time right now is the best in my opinion. Not just Chan and Hanyu, but Fernandez also (and Ten when he's not struggling like at Skate America). 2015-16 is going to be one long, happy season for me. :respec:
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,262
Then when it was time to watch the TSN recording of all the other men, I watched Patrick's LP a third time. :D Anybody watch it more times than me?
Puh-lease. I've been watching it every day since SC.
 

PeterG

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12,484
I want to see how the program can improve from Skate Canada. I'll watch it three times at TEB, three times at the Grand Prix Final, three times at Nationals, three times at 4CC (I can dream) and three times at Worlds. Remember, you have to pace yourself throughout the season. You don't want to peak too early. :D
 

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