As the Page Turns (the Book Thread)

[clairecloutier]

Then there was also Pa participating in the minstrel show in Little Town on the Prairie. Which again, I knew was there, but reading the description still made me more uncomfortable than I was expecting.

Oh my goodness, yes. That was VERY uncomfortable.

We did definitely talk about that scene.

 

[genevieve]

And I reread the last three official Laura Ingalls Wilder books (The Long Winter, Little Town on the Prairie, and These Happy Golden Years). I knew there was problematic stuff in her books and I'd reread the books already as an adult, but I was still surprised to see just how much there was in there and how bad it was. It was a lot worse than I was expecting.

A couple of weeks ago, I needed something that wasn't taxing before bed, so I grabbed a collection of 5 Agatha Christie Poirot books that I've read over and over and over again in the last 25 years. I can't remember the last time I read any of them but it's probably been at least a decade. As you say, I knew there was some problematic stuff in Christie's work, but I chose to read the book I was least familiar with, and there was a scene maybe 10 pages in that was just shocking with multiple racial stereotypes and even included the n-word. I can't believe I had forgotten that.

I put the book down after that.

 

[Jenny]

Later editions of some Agatha Christie books soften the language somewhat, but it's still there. And it's not just people of colour. Notoriously, one of her most famous books - Murder on the Orient Express - contains some very nasty language and sentiment towards Italians too.

 

[clairecloutier]

On this topic, having recently re-read the first two Anne of Green Gables books with my kids, I must say there is a fair amount of unpleasant stereotyping of French Canadians/Quebecois in those books.

 

[Erin]

On this topic, having recently re-read the first two Anne of Green Gables books with my kids, I must say there is a fair amount of unpleasant stereotyping of French Canadians/Quebecois in those books.

Oh no...I reread the first one about five years ago and was pleasantly surprised about how well that book had stood up as an adult, but apparently I didn't notice that. I think that the LIW rereads showed how much I've learned about some of this kind of stuff in the last few years. I probably last read them in 2014 or 2015 and I didn't think my perspective had changed that much since then, but apparently it has, a lot.

On a cheerier note, I still have access to e-books from the library in Minneapolis, which is good, because Calgary's library has been closed until recently, so I haven't been able to even get a library card. And the Hennepin County library recently merged with the other counties in the Twin Cities and apparently those other counties must have a lot of books that people don't borrow because since the merger, pretty much everything I want to borrow has no waitlist or a very short one. Even books that just came out last year. I almost don't know what to do with myself.

 

[her grace]

@Erin @her grace

I am curious--what do you guys see as the most problematic content in the LH books? I mean, of course an obvious thing is some of the characterization of Native Americans. And then, some of Ma's admonitions to Laura about "proper" behavior for girls at that time. And Laura getting married so young. And, of course, the issues of guns/hunting.

Aww, I don't want to be hating on LH , but since you asked . . .

Partially, it would depend on how old the kids are. For example, the racism in the book is open and obvious so if my kids read it now, they would recognize that immediately as being wrong. If they were still in preschool like I was when I first had Little House on the Prairie read to me, they would need more context (and I wouldn't really want to choose openly racist, manifest destiny books for Pre-K anyway).

It's the sexism that I think would be harder to explain because it's more insidious. Pa wants to pack up and move so everybody has to go. Pa's word is law. The girls stress about whether Pa will get a Christmas present in The Long Winter because he's the (implied) most important member of the family, etc.

There's also a worldview of kids deserving punishment rather than needing instruction that I don't particularly care for.

The guns/hunting I have no problem with.

Now if my kid picked it up and wanted to read it, I'd say go ahead, and we would discuss it. I just haven't gone out of my way to introduce it.

 

[Prancer]

Not related to children's books, but this piece in Salon about Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth was interesting to me because the book (and Wolf) was all the rage when I was in grad school. I didn't read it then and probably won't read it now (I think I would be biased), but I wondered if anyone here read that book back in the day and had thoughts.

 

[MacMadame]

I did not read it back in the day. I might have if I hadn't already read "Fat is a Feminist Issue" even father back in the day. I found that book life-changing in the same way that a lot of people found The Beauty Myth. But in the 90s my reaction to her thesis was: Duh.

 

[Jenny]

Interesting to read about the experiences of parents with this kind of tricky content. I had good parents and teachers, and I read like crazy when I was a kid, but I don't remember anyone ever talking to me about the content. By 11 or 12 I was starting to read books meant for adults along with the tween stuff, so was reading about adults themes on my own. Ditto song lyrics when you think about it.

And in those days, the books for tweens and teens were more often than not written decades earlier, so all the ideas about dating and relationships with boys were nothing like what was really going on in my life, so maybe that's why when I read Agatha Christie or Little House or so many others, I just figured it was a different world than my own. Maybe I still look at anything that's not contemporary as just something from another time and place.

 

[quartz]

I was regurgitating misogynistic, patriarchal, and violent verses from the KJ bible at the age of 5. My parents often disparaged those of other religions and other races on a regular basis, and I was routinely threatened with eternal damnation in the fiery pits of hell. Pa in Little House on the Prairie being the boss of the home and Ma going on about Indians didn’t really faze me.

 

[puglover]

"I still look at anything that's not contemporary as just something from another time and place" is the key for the most part. My husband and I have been sharing stories from our childhood on zoom with our grandchildren to help strengthen the bonds that have been put to the test by travel restrictions and health concerns. We have done quite a bit of self censorship. Some of what we played with and thought was fun are not appropriate today. My husband and his brother played "cowboys and injuns" and lots of gun play with cap guns and wooden homemade guns with elastics that shot beans. He also played a lot with firecrackers. I played house with dolls and school and teacher. We were given way more freedom to roam the neighbourhood, walk to and from school although it was far, and ride our bikes wherever we wanted. We were not nearly as aware of danger as children are today. There are some major shifts in attitude and behaviour just two generations back. I believe, for the most part, young people can appreciate that thinking has changed, some of it evolved in a positive way, but still there are lessons to be learned from past generations. Anyone who delves into their own family history realizes you have to try to judge people and events in the context of their time and location.

 

[genevieve]

Interesting to read about the experiences of parents with this kind of tricky content. I had good parents and teachers, and I read like crazy when I was a kid, but I don't remember anyone ever talking to me about the content.

I think the prevailing sentiment until very recently was exactly as you say - "that was a different time". It's fairly recent that including a more critical look at the very real racist/sexist ideology baked into older works of art has become more common. Honestly, not having those conversations with kids is doing them a disservice.

I also have an easier time looking at written works as a reflection of their time when they were written 200+ years ago, because so much of those stories is foreign to how we live today.

 

[Jenny]

Oh I agree, certainly worth revisiting through today's lens, especially for young people who are exposed to so much more at a young age than we ever were thanks to the internet.

This discussion was just making me realize how on my own I was, and how much what I read shaped my early views on all kinds of things. I've also said before on this thread that occasionally I find it very enlightening to reread something that I read when I was young and how differently I see it now.

 

[her grace]

Looking back, I think my first exposure to Native Americans was through Little House and the Song of Hiawatha. Literature can do lots of great things and I don't regret what i read as a kid, but I do think it created a warped first impression of indigenous people. Like I said, I was listening to these stories in pre-K; I think they're a better fit for middle grade (4th-6th grade) where kids are beginning to develop critical reading skills and can understand the context better.

 

[Erin]

Interesting to read about the experiences of parents with this kind of tricky content. I had good parents and teachers, and I read like crazy when I was a kid, but I don't remember anyone ever talking to me about the content.

I was the same and I think that even if my parents had tried to talk to me about the content, I don't know how receptive I would have been. I was a pretty independent learner in general and in particular, I didn't like to take advice or lessons from my parents and that started from a pretty young age.

I think the only way of reaching someone like me would be some kind of annotated version, if that would even be possible to do in a kid-friendly way.

 

[tony]

A couple of weeks ago, I needed something that wasn't taxing before bed, so I grabbed a collection of 5 Agatha Christie Poirot books that I've read over and over and over again in the last 25 years. I can't remember the last time I read any of them but it's probably been at least a decade. As you say, I knew there was some problematic stuff in Christie's work, but I chose to read the book I was least familiar with, and there was a scene maybe 10 pages in that was just shocking with multiple racial stereotypes and even included the n-word. I can't believe I had forgotten that.

I put the book down after that.

Her most famous work had a different original title than the And Then There Were None as it stands now. I've read a lot of Christie, got into it when I was a pre-teen and my grandpa showed me the 1943 movie adaptation knowing I would love it. Still love the majority of her work, but still very problematic.

It was a different time and even though it's ridiculous in retrospect, I try to keep that in mind. Even the first season of Survivor has a little instance with a slur for Hatch that would never, ever play over today and that was just over 20 years ago.

 

[Jenny]

Speaking of never playing today, we started rewatching Mad Men (2007) this week, and while obviously it takes place decades ago when things were very different, I do think they might not have been able to do the story in the same way post #metoo.

But back to books, some might recall that I love cookbooks and collect used/vintage books for the insights into society in different times and places as much as the recipes. Even into the 80s and 90s the assumption was that women were doing most of the cooking (except when it was time to BBQ of course), and further, the "impress his boss" and "get him to propose" menus. And then there are the "foreign" menus - everything from recipes to table and party decorations, so much of it sooo stereotypical and anything but authentic. There's a huge discussion now in food media about cultural appropriation of recipes, what's authentic and who even has the right to call a dish their own.

 

[cygnus]

I just finished "the Silence of the Girls" by Pat Barker. It's essentially a retelling of the Iliad, but from the point of view of Briseis, the captured-as-a-trophy-of-war woman who became a slave to Achilles (and Agamemnon for a short time). It's beautifully written, and does not shy away from the horrific abuse that women face in wartime at the hands of conquering armies. And it's sobering that 2500 years later things have not changed all that much.

 

[made_in_canada]

I'm jumping into this thread. Mostly for book suggestions, not that I don't have a a big to be read stack as it is I've found it really hard to read for awhile, school made it hard to read for pleasure, and then kids kept interrupting, but lately I've had more success. I just finished All the Light We Cannot See, which has been sitting on my night table for, um, years... I can't remember the last time I stayed up late reading, kind of felt like a kid again

 

[quartz]

I'm jumping into this thread. Mostly for book suggestions, not that I don't have a a big to be read stack as it is I've found it really hard to read for awhile, school made it hard to read for pleasure, and then kids kept interrupting, but lately I've had more success. I just finished All the Light We Cannot See, which has been sitting on my night table for, um, years... I can't remember the last time I stayed up late reading, kind of felt like a kid again

That’s a great book to get back into reading again.

 

[Finnice]

I just finished "the Silence of the Girls" by Pat Barker. It's essentially a retelling of the Iliad, but from the point of view of Briseis, the captured-as-a-trophy-of-war woman who became a slave to Achilles (and Agamemnon for a short time). It's beautifully written, and does not shy away from the horrific abuse that women face in wartime at the hands of conquering armies. And it's sobering that 2500 years later things have not changed all that much.

Thank you! I was so interested is Ilias when I was a kid. This new view of it sounds worth reading.

Re: Christie. I have written some essays on her work, and yes, the stereotyping of both race, nationality and class are horrible. Suddenly, when in "Murder in three acts" there is a Jew and communist, who is basically not a "bad" person, it seems like a slap on one's face.

And the pro death penalty morals are shocking, especially in "Then there were none". Some of her plots are still genius, I have to admit.

 

[MsZem]

Speaking of never playing today, we started rewatching Mad Men (2007) this week, and while obviously it takes place decades ago when things were very different, I do think they might not have been able to do the story in the same way post #metoo.

I saw a discussion on a romance novel website about romances that probably wouldn't be published after #metoo, or would get significant pushback. Basically all those 70s and 80s bodice rippers, but also more recent books where consent is an issue. OTOH, there's certainly still a market for so-called dark romance, so who knows.

 

[puglover]

Not sure if anyone here remembers the Judy Blume book "Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret". I remember it fondly. It seemed to be kind of ahead of its time - a group of preteen girls talking about boys, breasts and menstruation and realizing these are whole new areas to fall short in. Of lesser note, it delves into two issues many young people face - do they accept the belief system of their parents and the realization the advanced, beautiful, popular girls have their flaws and insecurities too. The book is now criticized, apparently, for being too sexually explicit, talking too much about religion (which I think is not the point), and showing young girls being competitive and catty with each other (never!).

 

[Jenny]

I didn't know a single girl when I was around 11 or 12 who didn't read that book. I recall there was a boys' version too, rather illuminating to a younger me

 

[mjb52]

The juicy Blume book is her "adult" book, which I think we had dramatic readings from at overnight camp. Can't remember what it's called though. Looking it up, I think it's Wifey? Spicy stuff.

 

[Jenny]

Not sure I ever read that one, but Forever - featuring, gasp, unmarried teens having sex - made the rounds when I was young. There was a 1978 tv movie made of it.

This talk is making me want to re-read them. The other one I remember is Deenie, and about a girl with spinal problems who had to wear a full body brace (maybe that was supposed to make those of us who suffered through traintrack braces feel better), and I just looked it up, the boy version of Are You There God was called Then Again, Maybe I Won't.

As an adult I read Summer Sisters and enjoyed it, picked up the the more recent In the Unlikely Event but never got to it - I think a few here read it.

 

[MsZem]

Not sure I ever read that one, but Forever - featuring, gasp, unmarried teens having sex - made the rounds when I was young. There was a 1978 tv movie made of it.

Certainly not Judy Blume, but when I was in school people were reading Flowers in the Attic, which

 

[Jenny]

Oh no kidding. I have memories of Helter Skelter being passed around under desks in middle school (the pictures!) and Amityville Horror was all the rage too.

I'm dating myself

 

[clairecloutier]

I was never a big Judy Blume fan, but I do remember what a sensation Forever was! I read that book in 5th grade and felt very "mature," but of course, I totally was not and couldn't really relate to it at all.

And yes, I also read Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret and Deenie. I think Deenie was my favorite of the Blume books.

Did anyone else read The Cheerleader by Ruth Doan MacDougall when a tween/teenager? I think that book may have influenced me/struck my imagination as much as anything else I read at that time. I still have the book to this day and have re-read it umpteen times. I even got my husband to read it at one point (can't remember how that happened).

 

[mjb52]

I was absolutely obsessed with The Witch of Blackbird Pond, which is a little "younger" I would say than the books above. There was a great romantic subplot (involving secondary characters) in it, which really shaped my taste in even literary fiction for ever more for better or for worse. I wonder what it would be like to re-read now? It did seem to have a strong feminist storyline at the time, but I don't know how it holds up.