Are Duhamel & Radford underrated?

[savchenkoboss]

K&S better than S&K? Really? Kavaguti never had the line of Stolbova even if she was more flexible, their twists were horrible, their SBS jumps came to a halt, and their throws could not nearly compare in quality to S&K's. S&K showed much more complex and better quality elements.

Smirnov was a great male pair skater and good for him for sticking with Kavaguti although it honestly wasted his own career. He would have a much more convincing argument to switch than Zhang Hao.

The only time Stolbova & Klimov really impressed me was the 2015-2016 season Grand Prix final. They killed it there, might have challenged Duhamel & Radford for the 2016 world title had they duplicated it there, and probably better than any skate Kavaguti & Smirnov ever did.

Beyond that not much. Their Olympic silver performances were great, but really a super cheesy Addams Family theme song, choreography, and almost juvenile packaging and presentation, with by todays standards completely basic technical content, although very well done. And I mentioned this to you when discussing Sotnikova in the other thread, but the Sochi Games were so corrupt and full of cheating, bribery, doping, etc..in every sport that Russia was semi banned from the 2018 Games, and had the embarassment of competing as "Olympic Athletes of Russia", just barely being approved to have their athletes compete at all with numerous random bans of even ones who never failed a drug test, so that taints and devalues every single Russian medal at these Games. And that applies to both the blatantly unjust ones like Sotnikova's gold, and even the less questionable ones like the pairs gold and silver unfortunately. Although frankly I think S&K are placed behind Savchenko & Szolkowy for silver overall anywhere else, even with the 2 falls by S&S in the long. I dont think they even medal in Vancouver with their Sochi skates honestly, they probably edge Kavaguti & Smirnov for 4th due to their mistakes.

I can totally see your criticsms of Kavaguti imparticular but I still found them more interesting, creative, and innovative, and also more willing to push risks and the technical envelope for their time than Stolbova & Klimov in theirs. Atlhough that did lead to them being more inconsistent, which is one reasons S&K were able to capatilize on golden opportunities and situations like Sochi and the 2014 worlds, and K&S never quite good.

 

[Marco]

I believe towards the end, K&S were pushing the quad throws just to hang on - they weren't really landing them - because they didn't have much else to offer to remain competitive. In that team, the "interesting, creative, and innovative" was definitely just Tamara. I find D&M and B&S much more capable of showcasing her ideas.

Appreciating S&K had nothing to do with results. I just love the throws without set-ups and would equally love them even if they were off the podium in Sochi. K&S set up their throws for months and still ever landed them nearly as nicely as S&K could.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I believe towards the end, K&S were pushing the quad throws just to hang on - they weren't really landing them - because they didn't have much else to offer to remain competitive. In that team, the "interesting, creative, and innovative" was definitely just Tamara. I find D&M and B&S much more capable of showcasing her ideas.

Appreciating S&K had nothing to do with results. I just love the throws without set-ups and would equally love them even if they were off the podium in Sochi. K&S set up their throws for months and still ever landed them nearly as nicely as S&K could.

I do agree S&K were more polished overall, especialy her, and technically cleaner. I expected them to improve after 2014 though, and apart from the 2016 GPF where they shone, they never really did. I personally prefer a team who tries to push the technical envelope and be creative and try new things artistically and for me K&S did that more than S&K ever did.

 

[MAXSwagg]

For me, S/K typically have the best, most interesting programs over the past few seasons:

• Addams Family FS (arguably should've won the FS in Sochi by a mile...for me it did, and I'm also unequivocally a V/T uber, if you couldn't tell)
• Man and Shadow FS (brilliant at GPF)
• Debussy SP (people didn't like it but it highlighted their absolutely incredible skating skills and was a risk for them)
• Aubry medley FS (AMAZING)
• Tango SP (again, fabulous step sequence matched to the music)
• Carmen FS (constructed very well)

 

[Willin]

I wouldn't call them artistic, but I do think their smarts and drive is underrated. While other skaters let their coaches or families dictate what elements they'll do, analyze their scores, watch the competition, etc., D/R seemed entirely in the driver's seat. Both know the IJS extremely well and how to strategize to gain points out of their strengths while hiding their weaknesses - not that they didn't know their weaknesses and try to improve those as well. Duhamel in particular is an IJS/strategic guru as far as I'm concerned.
I think more skaters could be more successful if they took this mindset into competition. Look where motivation, ownership, and strategy got D/R, Savchenko, Kostner, and Wagner despite their "old" ages. While Savchenko was the most successful of that group in recent years, I think Duhamel is the one that was able to gain the most from it. Without her smarts and drive I doubt they'd be thought of as even an outside shot for the Olympic podium.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I never liked them much although I did respect their talent. But she completely won me over with her fantastic enthusiasm and sportsmanship at the Olympics. Her excitement when Nagasu landed the 3 axel, and her warmth when Savchenko and Massot won gold

They have always been generous in this way Pairs events at Canadian Nationals have always been cool because they are all high fiving each other before taking the ice for warm up. Pretty cool

 

[savchenkoboss]

For me, S/K typically have the best, most interesting programs over the past few seasons:

• Addams Family FS (arguably should've won the FS in Sochi by a mile...for me it did, and I'm also unequivocally a V/T uber, if you couldn't tell)
• Man and Shadow FS (brilliant at GPF)
• Debussy SP (people didn't like it but it highlighted their absolutely incredible skating skills and was a risk for them)
• Aubry medley FS (AMAZING)
• Tango SP (again, fabulous step sequence matched to the music)
• Carmen FS (constructed very well)

You like Addams Family? I thought that was so cheesy and immature. Almost juvenile. They did deserve their Olympic silver only since they made all the technical moves, but the program was LOL

 

[zebraswan]

Every D/R program looks the same to me. I don't find them aesthetically pleasing to look at (too mismatched) and Meagan skates like she doesn't even realize there is music playing. Maybe technically you can call them underrated, but you cannot expect non-fans to find some newfound appreciation for their "artistry" or innovative choreo, which was never there. Eric is a decent skater but as a pair, they don't work for me. S/K were brilliant, D/R not even close. Trash Addams Family if you want, but at least it was memorable & fun. Only juveniles are allowed to skate fun programs? And they showed true versatility going from that to modern dance-influenced programs like the Man & the Shadow. D/R had no range whatsoever.

 

[dramagrrl]

As for Savchenko and Massot, you are biased towards Aliona, not the PAIR. Their success is almost entirely based on her name and reputation that she built Robin (of whom she and Steuer practically crapped on in their split).

Duhamel and Radford are a bit like Sale and Pelltier reincarnated. Canadian, benefited from pushed up marks, and both women very unbearable. The only difference is that even Sale and Pelltier had quality aspects.

I completely disagree with both these statements. Savchenko and Massot had many qualities that brought them to ultimate success, including beautiful and innovative choreography that is, IMO, unmatched by any other pair currently competing and also unique from great pairs choreography of the past. Of course they had an easier entry into the top echelons due to Aliona's reputation and previous success, but their journey to the top was definitely not "almost entirely based on her name and reputation she built [with] Robin". In fact, I would even say that many, including some judges, judged S&M (especially Bruno) more harshly due to Aliona's previous success and reputation.

As for D&R being "Sale and Pell[e]tier reincarnated", I don't know whether to roll my eyes or laugh. The two teams had absolutely opposite styles and strengths. S&P were a much more traditional pairs team whose initial success was about their "skating as one" quality and ultimate success was mostly based on their artistry and style. (Even if some people hated their style, it cannot be denied that they had extremely effective choreography and delivered their particular style very, very well.) Their main weakness was technical elements, especially Jamie's SBS jumping skills or lack thereof. D&R gained success as an "athletic" pair with great technical difficulty and SBS jumps that no one else in the world was even attempting at the time. They were always criticized for their lack of artistry and "skating as one" quality. To me, the only real similarities between the two pairs is that they were both Canadian and both won world and Olympic medals.

 

[Icetigger]

I completely disagree with both these statements. Savchenko and Massot had many qualities that brought them to ultimate success, including beautiful and innovative choreography that is, IMO, unmatched by any other pair currently competing and also unique from great pairs choreography of the past.

I agree: Christoper Dean's choreography for the free this year was superb. In terms of what Ice Dance used to be, that really was the Ice Dance programme of the season.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

@Marco I think this is the first time I have ever disagreed with you...

Well, maybe it was bound to happen.

I think K&S are as good as team as S&K. Both have pros and cons. But I actually cant say that S&K are better than K&S.

When I look back now on S&K she always seems angry, and I never got much of a connection between the two. Storng elements, yes usually. When I really think about it K&S gave me more of an emotional punch. Plus they tried for quads, etc...... so they stayed strong on there tech content.

You also mentioned the twist.... S&K have one of the worst if you ask me.... and the past season or two has proved it.

 

[Susan M]

IMO they were, if anything, over marked and overrated. It is a sad commentary on the recent state of pair skating that a team with little but difficult technical tricks, fairly weak musical connection and interpretation skills, and general lack of "skating as one" should have been able to achieve so much.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Well, maybe it was bound to happen.

I think K&S are as good as team as S&K. Both have pros and cons. But I actually cant say that S&K are better than K&S.

Who do you think would have won worlds between D&R and S&K had S&K duplicated their outstanding GPF winning performances from that season at worlds? That would have been interesting, I think it would have been about less than a 2 point difference either way and virtually a tie, I wouldnt bet money on who comes out on top. Even their LP scores from the two events are virtually identical, I think it was 154 and change for both. As it was S&K blew it at worlds, failing to continue their momentum from their big win at the GPF which is the first time post Sochi they had real momentum, didnt medal, and still have only 1 world medal though. And this was their last stint as Russian #1 which Tarasova & Morozov would soon handily take over.

Also do you think K&S would have won gold at 2010 Olympics and 2010 Worlds had they skated their best? I think they win atleast silver both times.

 

[julieann]

Oh, please! Kavaguti and Smirnov were practically played out by 2012. I liked some of their programs but it’s time that their ubers let them go. To say that either teams could not compete with them at their best is a spectacularly stupid comment. And anyone who says S/K and especially V/T did not deserve their placements in Sochi are deluded. V/T free skating marks were very inflated (I had S/K winning that by a significant margin), and Savchenko/Szolkowy should have been closer in the SP (but it was a bad play on their part ditching that incredible When Winter Comes SP) but both teams absolutely deserved gold and silver.

I never said V/T or S/K didn't deserve the placements they got in 2014, but they were horrible over scored and it was because they were in Sochi, to deny that is ridiculous.

K/S were not played out by 2012. Between 2014-2016 They were 2nd and 3rd at nationals, won 1st and 2nd at all GP entered (6) and were GPF bronze medalists and European Champions beating S/K. They also got their personal best scores in 2015 and became the first pair ever to land a quad loop and two quads in one program.

I never said K/S were better than S/K. What I said was S/K benefited from injured skaters. They only became Russian champs in 2014 because K/S and V/T weren't there. They barely beat B/L by less than a half a point.

In 2011 S/K were alternates for Euros but when Smirnov had a burst appendix, they went in their place. At the 2013 Euros, they replace B/L who withdrew due to injury. They were 6th.

Every pair has a similar story, so to deny that about S/K having that advantage, is having blinders on to facts.

Kavaguti and Smirnov by the end started to look like one of those secretly taped videos of elder abuse in an old people's home.https://youtu.be/ice8aWNT9rg?t=1m12s

Kavaguti was injured and had surgery on her foot, to have them come back the following season was ridiculous and a huge error on Moskvina's part. Yuko needed more time to heal. The whole season was a mess.

I wonder what he would have been like as a partner for Aliona though instead of Bruno.

You really can't pick your partner, you get the one who is available at the time. Smirnov should've been put with Stolbova in 2009 instead of Klimov, but by that time K/S were already having very impressive result for the short time they were together. To break that up for an unknown partnership could've been a disaster.

I think D/R are great but with different people I think they could've looked better. Eric is tall and balletic and Meghan is short and athletic, they don't go together perfectly but as I said, it was who was available.

You can tell the fans who love skaters who can do no wrong and the ones who have a blind hatred over nothing, but facts are facts.

 

[julieann]

do you think K&S would have won gold at 2010 Olympics and 2010 Worlds had they skated their best? I think they win atleast silver both times.

Not at the Olympics, S/Z were too far ahead but they would have easily won gold instead of bronze at worlds if not for the two falls. They would've been a few points ahead of P/T.

 

[Winnipeg]

They are so athletic and powerful. I saw them live at Canadians 4 and 1 years ago and the sheer power, amplitude, and quality of their twists, lifts, throws, and jumps were breathtaking.

They are also so nice and sweet, and worked so hard to improve over the years despite not having the most natural talent, especialy Meaghan. Don't you agree? By your name I assume you are Canadian just like me.

Yes, I agree and Yes, I am Canadian!

 

[MAXSwagg]

I never said V/T or S/K didn't deserve the placements they got in 2014, but they were horrible over scored and it was because they were in Sochi, to deny that is ridiculous.

K/S were not played out by 2012. Between 2014-2016 They were 2nd and 3rd at nationals, won 1st and 2nd at all GP entered (6) and were GPF bronze medalists and European Champions beating S/K. They also got their personal best scores in 2015 and became the first pair ever to land a quad loop and two quads in one program.

I never said K/S were better than S/K. What I said was S/K benefited from injured skaters. They only became Russian champs in 2014 because K/S and V/T weren't there. They barely beat B/L by less than a half a point.

In 2011 S/K were alternates for Euros but when Smirnov had a burst appendix, they went in their place. At the 2013 Euros, they replace B/L who withdrew due to injury. They were 6th.

Every pair has a similar story, so to deny that about S/K having that advantage, is having blinders on to facts.



Kavaguti was injured and had surgery on her foot, to have them come back the following season was ridiculous and a huge error on Moskvina's part. Yuko needed more time to heal. The whole season was a mess.



You really can't pick your partner, you get the one who is available at the time. Smirnov should've been put with Stolbova in 2009 instead of Klimov, but by that time K/S were already having very impressive result for the short time they were together. To break that up for an unknown partnership could've been a disaster.

I think D/R are great but with different people I think they could've looked better. Eric is tall and balletic and Meghan is short and athletic, they don't go together perfectly but as I said, it was who was available.

You can tell the fans who love skaters who can do no wrong and the ones who have a blind hatred over nothing, but facts are facts.

Volosozhar/Trankov got:

• 140 at 2012 Worlds (in FRANCE) - a huge score for the time and arguably should have on that championship
• 149 at 2013 Worlds (in CANADA)
• 81 for SP at 2013 Nebelhorn (in GERMANY)
• 150 for FS at 2013 Nebelhorn (in GERMANY)
• 154 (long-standing record only beaten last season) at Skate America (in AMERICA)
• 83 for the SP (a record which would still stand even with Sochi) at Skate America (in AMERICA)
• 82 for SP at NHK (in JAPAN)
• 154 for FS at NHK (in JAPAN)
• 82 at the GPF (in JAPAN)

Additionally, they had two moderate mistakes in the FS at GPF and their score fell almost 20 points. If judges were giving "favors" they did a piss-poor job there. Your argument holds no weight. Or the only way it does if you subtract the equivalent amount of "horrible over-scoring" from everyone else's score in Sochi also.

And Kavaguti/Smirnov were absolutely played out. She could not land any side-by-side jumps, barely could land throws, they were insistent on going for very poor quality quad throws, lifts were deteriorating...

 

[screech]

Every D/R program looks the same to me. I don't find them aesthetically pleasing to look at (too mismatched) and Meagan skates like she doesn't even realize there is music playing.

IMO half the time she skated like she didn't realize there was another person on the ice with her. OR like she was forced to have another person on the ice with her.

A mutual acquaintance told me that when people started focusing on Meagan more as a pairs skater than as a singles skater, she was really annoyed, because she didn't really want to be a pairs skater - she was just doing it for fun. And to me it really showed, all through her career, that she wanted to be a singles skater.

 

[julieann]

Volosozhar/Trankov got:

• 140 at 2012 Worlds (in FRANCE) - a huge score for the time and arguably should have on that championship
• 149 at 2013 Worlds (in CANADA)
• 81 for SP at 2013 Nebelhorn (in GERMANY)
• 150 for FS at 2013 Nebelhorn (in GERMANY)
• 154 (long-standing record only beaten last season) at Skate America (in AMERICA)
• 83 for the SP (a record which would still stand even with Sochi) at Skate America (in AMERICA)
• 82 for SP at NHK (in JAPAN)
• 154 for FS at NHK (in JAPAN)
• 82 at the GPF (in JAPAN)

Additionally, they had two moderate mistakes in the FS at GPF and their score fell almost 20 points. If judges were giving "favors" they did a piss-poor job there. Your argument holds no weight. Or the only way it does if you subtract the equivalent amount of "horrible over-scoring" from everyone else's score in Sochi also.

So they were overscored all season!

And Kavaguti/Smirnov were absolutely played out. She could not land any side-by-side jumps, barely could land throws, they were insistent on going for very poor quality quad throws, lifts were deteriorating...

And yet they still got GPF and European Championship medals (plus many others) even beating the reigning OG and OS medalists. Hmm strange.

 

[savchenkoboss]

@MAXSwaag, V&T did not skate even close to their best in the Olympic LP though. Their throws are usually spectacular and here they touched down on the free foot with one and put a hand down on another, which by the rules should have meant nothing more than -1s across the board on both (as it was the scores on the two throws were all over the boards with as low as -1 but also an absurd +3 or two on both), and a slight drop in PCS too. They had one or two other shaky moments. I highly doubt you would be arguing S&K deserved to win the LP as you are, if V&T had skated perfectly after all. So showing their previous past scores is not a good barometer as this was a much weaker skate yet got almost the 154 top score they sometimes get. And as you said at the GPF on neutral turf where they made mistakes (granted bigger ones) they dropped 20 points, so at Sochi probably merited dropping about 10 for lesser ones but dropped 1 or 2, LOL! So you only help prove the point Julieann is making. You really think in an event Sotnikova, Lipnitskaia, Plushenko (in the team event), Illynk & Katsalapov (they might have deserved the bronze but their scores were absurd, remember the gap between I&K down to P&B was about the same as both the gaps between I&K up to V&M, and between D&W and V&M, which couldnt be more absurd). Again I remind you the whole Sochi Games was ruled by the governing body as so corrupt and full of cheating, doping, and rigging by Russians in every single sport they were semi banned from the 2018 Games, and some random athletes were even omitted.

And that isnt even factoring in some thought their previous LP scores might have been a tad high too.

 

[Marco]

@Marco I think this is the first time I have ever disagreed with you...

Well, maybe it was bound to happen.

I think K&S are as good as team as S&K. Both have pros and cons. But I actually cant say that S&K are better than K&S.

When I look back now on S&K she always seems angry, and I never got much of a connection between the two. Storng elements, yes usually. When I really think about it K&S gave me more of an emotional punch. Plus they tried for quads, etc...... so they stayed strong on there tech content.

You also mentioned the twist.... S&K have one of the worst if you ask me.... and the past season or two has proved it.

Emotionally I don't like either team, but on PCS S&K were clearly stronger.

Seems like the biggest disagreement we have is that you think S&K's twist is as bad as K&S's one where she usually crashes on his shoulder instead of being caught at the waist.

 

[Cleo1782]

IMO half the time she skated like she didn't realize there was another person on the ice with her. OR like she was forced to have another person on the ice with her.

A mutual acquaintance told me that when people started focusing on Meagan more as a pairs skater than as a singles skater, she was really annoyed, because she didn't really want to be a pairs skater - she was just doing it for fun. And to me it really showed, all through her career, that she wanted to be a singles skater.

Well if Meagan really wanted to be a singles skater she probably could have done it this year. She easily could have been 3rd at Canadians...just saying. I don't think she was pushed out of singles, she just had more talent as a pairs skater. I think she could have done singles for awhile if she wanted to. I have a hard time believing she didn't want to be a pairs skater. She is so knowledgeable and speaks so passionately about pairs..

 

[MAXSwagg]

@MAXSwaag, V&T did not skate even close to their best in the Olympic LP though. Their throws are usually spectacular and here they touched down on the free foot with one and put a hand down on another, which by the rules should have meant nothing more than -1s across the board on both (as it was the scores on the two throws were all over the boards with as low as -1 but also an absurd +3 or two on both), and a slight drop in PCS too. They had one or two other shaky moments. I highly doubt you would be arguing S&K deserved to win the LP as you are, if V&T had skated perfectly after all. So showing their previous past scores is not a good barometer as this was a much weaker skate yet got almost the 154 top score they sometimes get. And as you said at the GPF on neutral turf where they made mistakes (granted bigger ones) they dropped 20 points, so at Sochi probably merited dropping about 10 for lesser ones but dropped 1 or 2, LOL! So you only help prove the point Julieann is making. You really think in an event Sotnikova, Lipnitskaia, Plushenko (in the team event), Illynk & Katsalapov (they might have deserved the bronze but their scores were absurd, remember the gap between I&K down to P&B was about the same as both the gaps between I&K up to V&M, and between D&W and V&M, which couldnt be more absurd). Again I remind you the whole Sochi Games was ruled by the governing body as so corrupt and full of cheating, doping, and rigging by Russians in every single sport they were semi banned from the 2018 Games, and some random athletes were even omitted.

And that isnt even factoring in some thought their previous LP scores might have been a tad high too.

I said they were overscored. But not by much. The had really one moderate mistake. There was no major mistake. Unlikes Savchenko and Szolkowy who fell twice. You clearly do not understand GOEs. There is no mandatory negative. It is reduction. All of there elements start at +3. None of those errors warranted -3. The GOEs should range from +1 to +2. The GPF DID have two major errors. Sochi did not.

The bottom line is that D/R fans can whine all they want but it doesn't change facts. To the question of the thread, no. They are not under-rated and should be thankful for what they got. V/T have the gold, and many golds. Trying to tear down other pairs in an attempt to put D/R in a good light will not work.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Duhamel & Radford have 2 world titles, 4 world medals, and Olympic Team Gold, Olympic Team Silver, Olympic individual bronze.

Volosozhar & Trankov have just 1 world title, 3 world medals, and Olympic Team Gold, Olympic individual Gold. Both won the prestigious GPF only once

Their success is relatively on the same level, it is others who are whining who deny that, or that Duhamel & Radford have factually been far more successful than Stolbova & Klimov.

 

[tony]

I've written enough in other threads that it shouldn't be a shocker anymore-- I've followed Duhamel's career since her junior-level days 15 years ago. I have a tremendous amount of respect for her being able to pick up pairs skating so quickly and then really start to work on increasing the difficulty. She and Ryan Arnold were landing side-by-side and throw triple Lutzes in *2005*, long before other teams ever dared doing anything besides a sbs 3T and throw 3S/3R. She didn't have much success with Arnold, but then transitioned into a partnership with Craig Buntin and was 6th at her very first Worlds with him-- after 9 months together, and Meagan still being relatively new to pairs.

After missing the 2010 Olympics (and Buntin retiring), she teamed up with Radford after many people were speculating that he would be Tatiana Volosozhar's partner. By 2013, they were already a very serious threat on the World stage and their short program in particular at that Worlds was so dynamic and exciting. It didn't hurt that they were in front of a home-country crowd, but they really delivered and the program was jam-packed with choreography and transitional elements. Then I remember an interview with Meagan maybe half-way through the 2014 season where she said that the judges weren't giving them the levels/GOE for certain elements even though they were trying so hard to fulfill all of the criteria. So they removed some of the choreography and went directly into the elements and suddenly their GOE was better and their PCS went up. I'm quite sure Meagan will be the first to tell everybody that.

They were never going to be a Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze or any of the other traditional perfectly-lined pairs skaters. But they worked extremely hard to keep pushing the technical boundaries and they delivered when they needed to on many occasions. I don't see the 'emptiness' in their programs versus some of the other skaters-- I actually thought they still had plenty of content in-between the elements. She also worked really hard in the last season to improve her line and not be as frantic. That says something when have already been pushing the boundaries technically for many seasons and then at 31 years old, go back to basics to improve the other side of her skating.

If anything, I think they are a bit under-appreciated but I get that some fans long to see every pair (at the top) be as good as B/S in all-around quality.

 

[Excidra]

D/R had one thing over their competitors and that is, grit. Think about it, they had a huge hill to climb. They were mis-matched, didnt exude conventional artistry, both experienced high disappointments with former partners and etc, but they never gave up. In the end they became among the best pairs team in the last decade. In that aspect yes they are underrated as people dont mention them as among the best pairs skaters of the last decade.

They earned an Olympic medal in, arguably, the most competitive pairs field ever. Not many can say that. I am not sure if North America will see another dominate pair in skating for a while.

 

[berthesghost]

...She and Ryan Arnold were landing side-by-side and throw triple Lutzes in *2005*, long before other teams ever dared doing anything besides a sbs 3T and throw 3S/3R.

yes! I'll never forget that 2001 article where the Chinese admitted to the controversial "Herod plan". After a sybil foretold of a future Canadian WC, not yet born as a pair, that would be the first ever to land 3z at nats, they decided their pairs would attempt quad throws at the next two Olympics.

Then of course there was the throw 3x at 06 us nats where John Baldwin is clearly seen mouthing "take that Meagan!" after it's landed.

And you can never trust babble fish, but it seemed that in a German press interview last March, savchenko credits the Canadians with inspiring her many years of t3f attempts.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Emotionally I don't like either team, but on PCS S&K were clearly stronger.

Seems like the biggest disagreement we have is that you think S&K's twist is as bad as K&S's one where she usually crashes on his shoulder instead of being caught at the waist.

I think S&K's twist is one of the worst in the business.

Its hard for me to get on board with high PCS for S&K because I dont see much of a connection between the two. (For me they are carbon copies of Fusar-Poli & Margaglio in this aspect). What they do have is speed and good skating skills, but everything else in PCS segment for me is just ok.

Also I do think K&S's "Manfred Symphonies" is one of the best all time programs as far as PCS....... (even far superior to ANYTHING Volosozhar & Trankkov have done). Also I despise Claire de Lune these days but K&S made me love their version.

 

[savchenkoboss]

@AngelaNikodinovLove, what did you think of Stolbova & Klimov's winning performances at the 2016 Grand Prix final? Also how do you think they would have faired at worlds with them had they duplicated them there. I could see them contending with Duhamel & Radford for gold and being ensured atleast silver since Sui & Han blew it in the worlds LP.

 

[berthesghost]

I think I said earlier that I don’t recall much from that event but my overall impression (including crowd reaction) was stunned the Russians all did so poorly, a tad (pleasantly) surprised the Germans medaled, impressed and entertained by the Chinese, and resigned that the Canadians won fairly although dully. I guess technically that makes them “underrated” as there wasn’t much question they deserved to win but it was still whatever