Another Rafael Arutyunyan interview

[Meoima]

.. that's for 20 minutes (@ 150 USD/hr).... eah... I hope he charges $ 200...

is $150 per hour the common fee?

 

[Tinami Amori]

is $150 per hour the common fee?

Just my observation, not US statistics.
- Mid-range teacher (not elite) can charge 20 to 40 USD per 20/30 minutes lesson (lesson during public sessions or with several other skaters and/or student groups on the ice).
- Elite level teacher can charge 100 to 150 (once heard of 200) USD per hour (i guess elite skaters take 1 hr lessons, not 20 minutes, naturally). Private ice time is additional (don't know how much now).

 

[mag]

Just my observation, not US statistics.
- Mid-range teacher (not elite) can charge 20 to 40 USD per 20/30 minutes lesson (lesson during public sessions or with several other skaters and/or student groups on the ice).
- Elite level teacher can charge 100 to 150 (once heard of 200) USD per hour (i guess elite skaters take 1 hr lessons, not 20 minutes, naturally). Private ice time is additional (don't know how much now).

Frank Carrol charges $50 per 20 minutes. He coaches on elite sessions usually fewer than 10 Skaters) as well as regular free styles which can have over 20 Skaters. He coaches elites, want to be elites, newbies, and adult skaters. I see no reason why Arutyunyan couldn’t charge the same.

 

[GreatLakesGal]

If he was really "My way or the highway," he would never have taken Chen back so easily after he dropped Arutunian temporarily for Zoueva. Chen would have known their relationship was over after changing his jump layout in the Olympic SP and bombing. RA would have kicked Wagner out of the rink when she stopped focusing on her training and/or got to the point where her options were more limited as she aged. Plus her refrains of "Oh, Raf " would have gotten her nowhere fast.

He, in fact, seems to be of the "You'll do what you do, realize you were wrong, learn something and admit it." At least at the elite level. He sounds more like a parent than "Papa" Mishin.

Raf is desperate to become the coach of an Olympic medal winner. So of course he was willing to take Nathan back after Zoueva. And he himself (in an interview with Dave Lease) said that he is not his skater's "parent."

Part of being a great coach though is dealing with the emotional/motivational needs of your skaters as well as their (sometimes) difficult parents. Raf appears to seriously lack the skills for that and/or just doesn't want to expend the effort. One could argue that Raf's failure in that area ended up costing Nathan an OGM and perhaps also costing Ashley a spot on the US Olympic team.

 

[IceAlisa]

Raf is desperate to become the coach of an Olympic medal winner. So of course he was willing to take Nathan back after Zoueva. And he himself (in an interview with Dave Lease) said that he is not his skater's "parent."

Part of being a great coach though is dealing with the emotional/motivational needs of your skaters as well as their (sometimes) difficult parents. Raf appears to seriously lack the skills for that and/or just doesn't want to expend the effort. One could argue that Raf's failure in that area ended up costing Nathan an OGM and perhaps also costing Ashley a spot on the US Olympic team.

Or one can argue that people make uninformed judgment based on absolutely nothing.

 

[el henry]

My informed judgment, based solely on what I know of Raf from his million and one interviews, is that he is my Uncle Bill the Blowhard. Uncle Bill has a story for every occasion. Everything good that has ever happened to Uncle Bill is a result of his own talent, perseverance and just general wonderfulness. Everything bad, someone else ... bad client, bad luck, bad location, bad weather, bad bad bad.

Uncle Bill can be a great guy, but he's convinced of his own greatness too

And *if* Nathan bombed his Oly SP because he listened to his mom instead of good old uncle Raf (which I don't believe for a second, but still...), that's not Nathan's mom's fault. That's Raf's fault for not figuring out the situation and figuring out how to handle it. Because that's what great coaches do. And so, based on Raf's own stories, it is indeed Raf's own fault he's got no student with an individual Oly medal.

No matter how funny he is

 

[Tinami Amori]

My informed judgment, based solely on what I know of Raf from his million and one interviews, is that he is my Uncle Bill the Blowhard. Uncle Bill has a story for every occasion. Everything good that has ever happened to Uncle Bill is a result of his own talent, perseverance and just general wonderfulness. Everything bad, someone else ... bad client, bad luck, bad location, bad weather, bad bad bad.

And *if* Nathan bombed his Oly SP because he listened to his mom instead of good old uncle Raf (which I don't believe for a second, but still...), that's not Nathan's mom's fault. That's Raf's fault for not figuring out the situation and figuring out how to handle it.

... wrong impression.... He is Armenian, they have their specifics how they communicate, and "mothers/parents" are respected, and i doubt he would speak back to Chen's parents even if he was allowed to. Armenians are, in general, the nicest people, they look and talk tough, but that's the style...

Just for fun, short Armenian sit-com clip. No language needed "Husband catches his wife with a lover. Husband and Lover make an agreement - they will act out a duel, pretend to be both dead, and whichever one the Wife runs to first, gets to keep her.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPYnr-qEzKE

 

[IceAlisa]

My informed judgment, based solely on what I know of Raf from his million and one interviews, is that he is my Uncle Bill the Blowhard. Uncle Bill has a story for every occasion. Everything good that has ever happened to Uncle Bill is a result of his own talent, perseverance and just general wonderfulness. Everything bad, someone else ... bad client, bad luck, bad location, bad weather, bad bad bad.

Uncle Bill can be a great guy, but he's convinced of his own greatness too

Wow. You must have amazing powers of observation if you can judge someone so precisely based on a million (omg I have missed most of them!) interviews. However, based on Raf's status and demand in the skating world, I don't think believing that he is great is that off the mark.

And *if* Nathan bombed his Oly SP because he listened to his mom instead of good old uncle Raf (which I don't believe for a second, but still...), that's not Nathan's mom's fault. That's Raf's fault for not figuring out the situation and figuring out how to handle it. Because that's what great coaches do. And so, based on Raf's own stories, it is indeed Raf's own fault he's got no student with an individual Oly medal.

Have you caught Raf lying that you don't believe him? And precisely how should have Raf handled the situation if Nathan told him in the early morning that his family decided to change the content? You don't believe his version based on what exactly?

Do you know Raf personally? Or perhaps Uncle Bill the Blowhard has passed on some blowhard genes...

 

[berthesghost]

IDK. He seemed genuinely remorseful about the Mao debacle, even though it wasn’t all his fault he did seem to take responsibility for his part of the misunderstanding. I also agree with those who say he seems to get along fine with his students who know him well. If he was really as big a blowhard as he seems in some of these interviews, they’d probably drop him.

 

[VGThuy]

Frank Carroll said that a smart coach knows that if a parent is really invested and involved, then that coach can only sit back and give their insight and try to use their expertise to persuade but will NEVER actively get in-between a skater and their parent or interfere with that relationship because there is NO WAY a coach is going to win in that situation.

 

[el henry]

Frank Carroll said that a smart coach knows that if a parent is really invested and involved, then that coach can only sit back and give their insight and try to use their expertise to persuade but will NEVER actively get in-between a skater and their parent or interfere with that relationship because there is NO WAY a coach is going to win in that situation.

Exactly!
A great coach assesses the situation, determines the best way to persuade, and never ever ever gets betweeen a skater and a parent by blaming the parent for all the skater’s missteps, but taking credit for everything wonderful that a skater has done.

And (just to jump off) it sure as heck ain’t keeping it real and speaking words of “truth” to publically blame the parent. Like, really

But I will never persuade those as convinced of Raf’s own greatness as he is himself, and nothing he has said so far has persuaded me, so I think this is called an impasse

 

[IceAlisa]

And (just to jump off) it sure as heck ain’t keeping it real and speaking words of “truth” to publically blame the parent. Like, really

But I will never persuade those as convinced of Raf’s own greatness as he is himself, and nothing he has said so far has persuaded me, so I think this is called an impasse

Actually, try me. Do you have any evidence that what Raf said about the Olympic sp content isn’t true? Or do you operate under the Soviet style of presumption of guilt?

Also, lets say you have had surgery and your surgeon instructed you not to lift anything over 20 lbs. But instead you go to the gym, bench press 200 lbs and your incision opens. Next time you follow the surgeon’s instructions and all goes well. Is it the surgeon’s fault? Were they supposed to babysit you 24/7 to make sure you don’t do anything stupid and disregard their expertise, thinking you know best?

 

[jlai]

Exactly!
A great coach assesses the situation, determines the best way to persuade, and never ever ever gets betweeen a skater and a parent by blaming the parent for all the skater’s missteps, but taking credit for everything wonderful that a skater has done.

And (just to jump off) it sure as heck ain’t keeping it real and speaking words of “truth” to publically blame the parent. Like, really

But I will never persuade those as convinced of Raf’s own greatness as he is himself, and nothing he has said so far has persuaded me, so I think this is called an impasse

So basically all of the fans here and Artunian all want to be right. Sounds like a universal human trait to me.

 

[Dobre]

Exactly!
A great coach assesses the situation, determines the best way to persuade, and never ever ever gets betweeen a skater and a parent by blaming the parent for all the skater’s missteps, but taking credit for everything wonderful that a skater has done.

Parents, teachers, and coaches make mistakes all the time. There is no perfect handbook for the right way to do these jobs. In fact, the same advice is not the right way for different students. I don't love Rafael's interviews, but he has done very well by some very different athletes with very different strengths & skill sets. (Holy cow, even Brezina put together a great Worlds free skate under him).

Ultimately, it is up to the student to take this advice, make decisions with it, and learn.

 

[el henry]

....There is no perfect handbook for the right way to do these jobs. In fact, the same advice is not the right way for different students.
....

Absolutely agreed. I do not hate Raf, I think he would be amazingly fun to have a drink with, and I think for a certain skater who can push back, he is a fine coach. I think he was kind and supportive to Adam when Adam needed help just to live; I admire that kindness.

But I don't think blaming Mrs. Chen for Nathan's Oly SP, I don't care if she held a gun to Nathan's head and said, "Jump, my son, jump" is smart business or smart coaching. For anyone.

And believe it or not, that will be my last word on the subject Until the next interview....

 

[Tinami Amori]

But I don't think blaming Mrs. Chen for Nathan's Oly SP, I don't care if she held a gun to Nathan's head and said, "Jump, my son, jump" is smart business or smart coaching. For anyone.

This is what happened (as a formula).
- Rafael is hired for the sole purpose: to train/advise Chen.
- As an trainer/adviser he had a method/a tactic for Chen, which in his expertise he thought is best way to win/place high.
- Chen's parents, who are not trainers/professionals, advised Chen to do different than what Rafael advised.
- Chen took his parents' advise over his trainer's advise.
- Now his trainer (Rafael) is legitimately saying: the advise Chen took from parents (over his) did not work out well.
- He is not blaming, he is stating the FACT and he is correct.

Plus, i do not think in this particular interview Rafik is mentioning Chen's parents. This is what he said:

He (Chen) himself spontaneously decided which elements to do in the short program and it led to the mistakes. I had a completely different plan, but Nathan insisted and finished 17th in the short program. I gave him the opportunity to make a mistake at the main competition of the season, but now Chen listens carefully to my recommendations.

 

[Kateri]

IDK. He seemed genuinely remorseful about the Mao debacle, even though it wasn’t all his fault he did seem to take responsibility for his part of the misunderstanding.

If you (or someone else) wouldn't mind explaining, please: what happened, exactly?

 

[nimi]

If you (or someone else) wouldn't mind explaining, please: what happened, exactly?

Raf explains it here: https://youtu.be/kkLLwgvT1jE

If you don't want to sit through a video, here's an article summarizing it: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports...inally-solved-eight-years-later/#.WsCxP2ZDyRt

 

[Bellanca]

Raf is desperate to become the coach of an Olympic medal winner. So of course he was willing to take Nathan back after Zoueva. And he himself (in an interview with Dave Lease) said that he is not his skater's "parent."

Part of being a great coach though is dealing with the emotional/motivational needs of your skaters as well as their (sometimes) difficult parents. Raf appears to seriously lack the skills for that and/or just doesn't want to expend the effort. One could argue that Raf's failure in that area ended up costing Nathan an OGM and perhaps also costing Ashley a spot on the US Olympic team.

You have got to be kidding me. I'm sorry, and with all due respect, but this whole post is Raf's not that needy or "desperate" for anything you've mentioned, nor did he cost Nathan an Olympic gold medal or Ashley a spot on the team.

I think you've just had an Uncle Bill the Blowhard moment.

 

[Katha]

Tbh, I always take his interviews as a bit of performance art? It's clear he wants to project a certain image, IMO it's also clear that his actual career is often in direct contradiction to his tough guy statements.

He's established himself as someone who is also willing and patient enough for "lost cause" skaters. Not everyone would have taken on Adam and Ashley, and not everyone would have gone in with an attitude of: "You do you." Of course there's tension and he criticizes if he thinks they aren't delivering. Perhaps he goes about it the wrong way at times. He stabilized Buttle's jumps. He was with Kwan in her waning years and seemed to understand the situation. He's repeatedly expressed regret for the parting with Mao, basically outlining that he was the adult in the situation and should have been more alert to what was perhaps going on beyond the surface (IMO he's being rather hard on himself there).

The Chen situation has always seemed like a balance act, and RA as someone who is frustrated because he doesn't quite know how to proceed. The "hands-off" approach he has established with older skaters isn't always the best way there, so he sees that he needs to intervene more. But it's difficult to do so because, in his view, there are various other outside influences. That doesn't have to be an "objective truth", just how he perceives the situation, which colours all his statements on it.

 

[nimi]

Tbh, I always take his interviews as a bit of performance art? It's clear he wants to project a certain image, IMO it's also clear that his actual career is often in direct contradiction to his tough guy statements.

IIRC one of his students (maybe Adam?) said something like Raf is grizzly bear on the outside but teddy bear on the inside.

 

[IceAlisa]

IIRC one of his students (maybe Adam?) said something like Raf is grizzly bear on the outside but teddy bear on the inside.

It does sound like something Adam would say

 

[Sylvia]

IIRC one of his students (maybe Adam?) said something like Raf is grizzly bear on the outside but teddy bear on the inside.

To me, that sounds more like something Ashley would say.

I missed seeing this Los Angeles Times article by Helene Elliott that was published before the start of the Olympics (Feb. 4, 2018): For 3 figure skaters, the road to Pyeongchang goes through Rafael Arutunian's Lakewood workshop on ice
Besides Arutunian, it includes quotes from Chen, Rippon, Brezina and Kwan.

 

[nimi]

To me, that sounds more like something Ashley would say.

LOL you're probably right!

I was trying to find the grizzly bear quote but I failed, so either it was said in some place ungoogleable (like a video interview) or my brain is playing games with me. However, googling took me to this 8 min audio tour of Raf's rink in Lakewood, given by the facility's general manager Phil Zamora (recommended for anybody interested in things like the ice time and off-ice training possibilities available for Raf's skaters there): https://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2018/02/12/61678/where-olympic-skaters-train-in-socal/

 

[Willin]

I love Raf's interviews. It's fun to see someone say things that aren't necessarily politically correct, especially when USFSA like to keep things looking rosy. It's also great to get some insight into his skaters, as some of them (Ashley, Adam) are certainly interesting as far as personality goes.

Raf explains it here: https://youtu.be/kkLLwgvT1jE

If you don't want to sit through a video, here's an article summarizing it: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports...inally-solved-eight-years-later/#.WsCxP2ZDyRt

To be fair, under those circumstances I think most coaches would've fired her. If he has a stable training environment and students in the US (and a work visa) why bother to change all that to go to Japan? And why would her camp be so incredibly insistent on him going to Japan for apparently no reason?
I don't think Mao herself is at fault. If she didn't want to tell him about her mom's condition, then she didn't need to, but in hindsight maybe it would've been the better thing to do, or at least to tell him that she was having a family matter that meant she was unable to leave Japan.

 

[Sylvia]

Interview in Czech (Michal Brezina focus) by Tomáš Macek that was published on March 26: https://sport.idnes.cz/krasobruslen...-pnt-/sporty.aspx?c=A180325_221352_sporty_ald
Google translated excerpts:

"I have never questioned Michal's potential," Arutjuňan says. "But he fell in down and down. Stopping the fall is always the hardest. But I did it. Now I kick him up a bit. We do that. Nothing special. Nothing. "
He's a tough coach. He requires Březina to run all his programs twice or three times a day, plus even more difficulty than at the race. That's how he's getting better.
"Sometimes my skaters tell me that I'm too hard on them, even when practicing pirue," he admits. "But I answer them: Yes, I am. Because the judges will be even tougher. Referees are not friends."

Březina completely overcame the technique . "I made every jump before. Now I'm getting more or less the same, "the Czech representative commends. The coach has now announced that he will add a four-piece toeloop next season.
"In the spring, I will always offer all my skaters that we will try harder in the coming season," says Arutjuňan. "But I let them decide whether they are willing to go into even more work."
... Březina tries to resurrect for two years.
"Michael is 27, which is enough," says the coach. "But I recommend him two more seasons. He can still return to the European Championship winners. I know what he is capable of. Getting it out, it's my job."

(It was mentioned in the #TeamTrainwreck thread but some did not believe that Michal Brezina is NOT retiring yet. )

 

[Yazmeen]

Ah, Raf, he never fails to amuse....
The geater with the heater, the big boss with the secret sauce

OT be damned, I appreciate a good Jerry Blavat reference and this needs to be noted.

Great reference to one of my favorite DJs, the ageless Jerry Blavat. Are you still on a Super Bowl high, el Henry? Philly rules

oh, i don't get "Blavat" vibes from Rafik. Blavat is a combo of Jerry Lewis and Frank Sinatra.
Rafik, if you see him in person or live, talks and gesticulates like a Mediterranean passionate eager but loving father, a combo of Zorba and Tveya. His words on paper and in person create different impression...

Good grief, all the Blavat comments, I'm going to be humming doo wop all day!!!!

For those not from Philly, and not in the know; and he's still going strong! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7k5FB-ld5A

Although, @el henry, I believe it was the "big boss with the hot sauce..."

 

[suki]

Good grief, all the Blavat comments, I'm going to be humming doo wop all day!!!!

For those not from Philly, and not in the know; and he's still going strong! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7k5FB-ld5A

Although, @el henry, I believe it was the "big boss with the hot sauce..."

Mini-thread hijack

I can't believe at least three other people on this board know about Jerry Blavat! A true Philly original. And Yazmeen, hum away with abandon (Recommendations: "One Summer Night" by the Danleers, "60 Minute Man" by the Dominoes, "In the Still of the Night" by the Five Satins, and I could go on and on . . .)

I judged a local adult skating contest a few years ago, and one of the skaters skated to doo wop. I gave him 6.0s, not because he skated well, but because he had the originality to skate to some of the great pre-Beatles songs.

 

[Yazmeen]

Mini-thread hijack

I can't believe at least three other people on this board know about Jerry Blavat! A true Philly original. And Yazmeen, hum away with abandon (Recommendations: "One Summer Night" by the Danleers, "60 Minute Man" by the Dominoes, "In the Still of the Night" by the Five Satins, and I could go on and on . . .)

I judged a local adult skating contest a few years ago, and one of the skaters skated to doo wop. I gave him 6.0s, not because he skated well, but because he had the originality to skate to some of the great pre-Beatles songs.

Apologies for one more mini-hijack. If you've never seen it, try to find the movie "The In Crowd." Blavat was supposedly the inspiration for Joe Pantoliano's "Perry Parker." To the point that he sued over it to keep it from being released (settled out of court). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hziDjFndUKw

 

[Meoima]

Just my observation, not US statistics.
- Mid-range teacher (not elite) can charge 20 to 40 USD per 20/30 minutes lesson (lesson during public sessions or with several other skaters and/or student groups on the ice).
- Elite level teacher can charge 100 to 150 (once heard of 200) USD per hour (i guess elite skaters take 1 hr lessons, not 20 minutes, naturally). Private ice time is additional (don't know how much now).

Oh I remember Orser said he used to charge Yuna around $110 per hour so it was even cheaper than Raf. But I bet he has upgraded his coaching fee since then.