American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

[jenniferlyon]

It's hard to say without knowing what context Jen meant it in. Are we just talking about skaters who medal at nats, or are we talking about all those skaters who work hard for years and end up 4th at regionals? In the larger context it might actually be true because who else could afford such an expensive hobby. Who's world are we talking about?

I meant the sport as a whole. For all the exceptional skaters who come from non-upper-middle class families, how many kids from similar backgrounds had to leave the sport before they reached their potential?

 

[WildRose]

I think the USFA needs a Michael Slipchuk. A High Performance Director who identifies talent, and works with skaters and their coaches to make sure they get the support they need both on and off the ice.

 

[Debbie S]

I think the USFA needs a Michael Slipchuk. A High Performance Director who identifies talent, and works with skaters and their coaches to make sure they get the support they need both on and off the ice.

USFS does have a high performance director: Mitch Moyer. And Justin Dillon is Mitch's assistant. They run seminars at major summer comps offering technical feedback, conditioning assessments, etc, to skaters and their coaches. Skaters are invited based on performance at Nats and Sectionals the previous season. I don't know how "support" differs between USA and Canada, but I think USFS is probably offering all that its budget allows.

 

[MacMadame]

I know there's a rule for newbie skaters on the international scene to draw first for skate order. But come on with Bradie having to skate first in the first group. That's rock bottom political clout.

No, it's the luck of the draw.

Have you ever seen a draw? I've seen several. They have a bag with chips in it and each chip has a number. There is a rule for who picks first (at US Nationals it's the skater/team who is most local). They put their hand in the bag and pull out a chip. Then they hand the bag to the next skater/team in line and they pick a chip. The order they go in after the first skater is also subject to rules. At US Nationals, it's alphabetical.

At comps like Worlds and Olympics, the skaters are divided into groups based on rules. Then each group does a draw using rules for the order they pick in. There is nothing magical or political about it.

There is absolutely no way to game this system. It is completely random.

Also, those who have daughters that are skaters, or who know young girls skating in the US : why did they start ? Because the reason might has to do a lot with the outcome. Maybe.

Maybe not though. Skaters start for the exact same reasons other athletes take up other sports as far as I can tell. They start because:
1) They see the sport on tv and are inspired
2) They get an opportunity to try the sport and find they like it
3) They do a related sport and decide to switch

 

[Karina1974]

I wouldn't put Lipinski on that list. I'd rather have a long constitstant career that maybe doesn't include an Olympic Gold, than a 15th and 1st at Worlds, no GP golds, only one National gold out of three tries and only one Olympic gold. Her career was that stellar in the grand scheme of things. Same with Sarah Hughes.

Tara won the GP Final (called the Champions Series then) twice.

Sarah Hughes won Skate Canada right before SLC, beating both Michelle and Irina. She also finished no lower than 7th at World's and was the World Bronze Medalist going into SLC.

 

[Cleo1782]

I would say money is probably the number 1 factor in the US. The amount of money parents put in to having even a mediocre senior lady is huge, and now the skating has declined in popularity there is very little payoff. No college scholarships (I believe Miami of Ohio does offer scholarships for Synchro), very few skating shows, maybe a cruise ship if you are lucky and want to commit to that, or coaching. Coaching isn't even terribly lucrative. If you are a top level coach, sure, you make a decent living, but you aren't making millions coaching.
Times have changed. No the Kwans weren't wealthy but Ice Castle paid for her ice, her housing on the grounds, provided equipment, etc. And it wasn't only Kwan, it was offered in varying degrees to many National skaters Novice and above. Coaches were also able to secure private sponsors more easily back then.
Aside from money issues, the US has had bad luck.........Gracie was top level talent, but didn't have the right mindset. Skaters like Wang, Miller, Hicks, Glenn, Zadawaski etc. never lived up to their initial promise. Other girls like Tyler Pierce and Tessa Hong and Barbie Long have left the sport. Zhang grew and was unable to hold on to her shaky technique. Meissner got injured after winning worlds. Polina had momentum and won 4cc's then got injured and was off the ice for a very long time. The USFS letting Paganini go was a big mistake IMO too.
But all this being said, the writings has been on the wall for a long time. We used to dominate the JGP in ladies with middle of the pack girls like Alexe Gilles, Angela Maxwell, Kiri Baga, Becky Bereswell, etc. When's the last time we qualified someone to the JGPF? Polina/Karen (Wang from the US was called up when Chen wd) in 2014? You never know what will happen, but I haven't had a 'wow this is a star in the making' moment with junior ladies since Gracie.

 

[Debbie S]

I was encouraged by the Junior Ladies medalists at Nats. Time will tell if they can continue to progress in Seniors, but I thought they showed a good combo of technical skill (3-3s) and presentation for their age.

 

[NadineWhite]

What the US needs are a few exceptional talents and the ability to identify and support them.

Ita.

I would say money is probably the number 1 factor in the US. The amount of money parents put in to having even a mediocre senior lady is huge, and now the skating has declined in popularity there is very little payoff. No college scholarships (I believe Miami of Ohio does offer scholarships for Synchro), very few skating shows, maybe a cruise ship if you are lucky and want to commit to that, or coaching. Coaching isn't even terribly lucrative. If you are a top level coach, sure, you make a decent living, but you aren't making millions coaching.
Times have changed. No the Kwans weren't wealthy but Ice Castle paid for her ice, her housing on the grounds, provided equipment, etc. And it wasn't only Kwan, it was offered in varying degrees to many National skaters Novice and above. Coaches were also able to secure private sponsors more easily back then.
Aside from money issues, the US has had bad luck.........Gracie was top level talent, but didn't have the right mindset. Skaters like Wang, Miller, Hicks, Glenn, Zadawaski etc. never lived up to their initial promise. Other girls like Tyler Pierce and Tessa Hong and Barbie Long have left the sport. Zhang grew and was unable to hold on to her shaky technique. Meissner got injured after winning worlds. Polina had momentum and won 4cc's then got injured and was off the ice for a very long time. The USFS letting Paganini go was a big mistake IMO too.
But all this being said, the writings has been on the wall for a long time. We used to dominate the JGP in ladies with middle of the pack girls like Alexe Gilles, Angela Maxwell, Kiri Baga, Becky Bereswell, etc. When's the last time we qualified someone to the JGPF? Polina/Karen (Wang from the US was called up when Chen wd) in 2014? You never know what will happen, but I haven't had a 'wow this is a star in the making' moment with junior ladies since Gracie.

What happened to the phenom Agnes Zawadzki was pure bad luck. Her survivor's benefits $ ran out once she turned 18 yrs. old (per her words), and then she tried to make it work for one more year, but alas that last year her results were the worst ever (11th at Nationals). Then she got a job on a cruise ship (trying to pay back the family).

Agnes story was the most heartbreaking imho ~ living in a two bedroom apartment with her mom, brother, grandparents ~ her mom working 2 jobs as a nanny & cleaning houses. But what makes it heartbreaking, in my opinion, is that she had the jumping talent of Tonya Harding (lol the first time I saw her I thought I was seeing a taller version of Tonya). Anyhow, another phenom gone too soon...

$

 

[Gazpacho]

Interesting generalization. It doesn't apply to Kwan, Harding, Galindo, Nagasu, Nathan Chen, Zhou, Tennell, Wagner, Starr Andrews, at least two prominent juniors at 2018 Nats with touching immigrant stories... for starters.

Chen's father is the CEO of a biotech company. Zhou lives in Palo Alto, and his mother is a Silicon Valley computer scientist. That's not just upper middle class, it's upper class.

Nagasu lives in Arcadia, and her parents run a successful restaurant. She's also an only child, so all her parents' money is spent on her. Wagner's mother is a teacher, and her father had a long career in the military. That's upper middle class. [Edit: It seems I had a misconception about long time military men/women. I also know firsthand that many teachers don't make much at all, certainly not enough to be considered upper middle class unless they are married to a higher earner, and I apologize for implying otherwise.]

Harding, Galindo, and Kerrigan came from working class backgrounds...a few decades ago.

 

[Cleo1782]

Ita.



What happened to the phenom Agnes Zawadzki was pure bad luck. Her survivor's benefits $ ran out once she turned 18 yrs. old (per her words), and then she tried to make it work for one more year, but alas that last year her results were the worst ever (11th at Nationals). Then she got a job on a cruise ship (trying to pay back the family).

Agnes story was the most heartbreaking imho ~ living in a two bedroom apartment with her mom, brother, grandparents ~ her mom working 2 jobs as a nanny & cleaning houses. But what makes it heartbreaking, in my opinion, is that she had the jumping talent of Tonya Harding (lol the first time I saw her I thought I was seeing a taller version of Tonya). Anyhow, another phenom gone too soon...

$

I agree that money is probably the #1 factor in a lot of instances, but in Agnes's case her career may have been cut short, but she had the opportunity to be a 2 time US champ as she was leading after the sp 2 years in a row. She had a long history of not living up to her potential in the long in several events. The USFS was always ready to give her the title and/or a spot on the world team. I think she had a problem with competitive nerves certainly not ability. So it's sad she couldn't continue due to funds, but her results were getting worse and worse unfortunately and the USFS is not going to continue to support or fund the 11th place finisher at Nationals when new 'stars' like Polina and Gracie were emerging and I don't necessarily fault that.

 

[justAfsfan]

Eteri Tutberidze happens.

 

[MacMadame]

Wagner's mother is a teacher, and her father had a long career in the military. That's upper middle class.

Not for any teachers and military personnel I know. Many in the military struggle to pay their bills and some even receive assistance such as food stamps. Many teachers work a second job to be able to afford a few luxuries.

 

[Gazpacho]

Not for any teachers and military personnel I know. Many in the military struggle to pay their bills and some even receive assistance such as food stamps. Many teachers work a second job to be able to afford a few luxuries.

You're certainly right about teachers. I was under the impression that long time military people were rather well off due to the excellent benefits and pensions and the fact that many living expenses were covered. You're probably right though, even with the benefits it's still not upper middle class.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

I don't think so. I think there was a bigger pool at the start. It may not be obvious at the National level because the number of skaters who can advance is limited artificially so it's the same as it's always been. But at the local level, lots of clubs and programs are struggling because the numbers are down.

Membership in USFS has been down for several years, as they've reported. It's up again this year. But it's been down, which perhaps reflects what you're seeing at local rinks.

Where I am, all rinks expected huge numbers in their Learn to Skate programs this winter due to the Olympics. Some got those numbers, but some did not, and were surprised that they did not, as the Olys normally is a major draw into these programs.

I have one student who is a (juvenile) competitive figure skater. I have at least eight students who've achieved Level 8 or Level 9 in gymnastics. Two of the gymnasts switched to diving and both ended up with major college options as a result.

My daughter's being recruited to the high school diving team now. She's still in middle school. She's got the skating, dance, gymnastics background that would benefit her in diving. I'm encouraging her to try it once she hits high school. She can go further in diving (college/scholarships) than she can in skating.

If that doesn't stick, I'm totally bringing her up to Lake Placid for their luge/skeleton stuff when she's old enough, see if she might like that. No scholarships for that, but they're actively recruiting, and she's pretty fearless.

 

[mag]

Other girls like Tyler Pierce and Tessa Hong and Barbie Long have left the sport.

Tessa has left the sport???

 

[Cleo1782]

Tessa has left the sport???

At least for the moment. TSL publicly reported it a days ago, but I had heard it before than. I think she quit shortly after Nationals, but she's young enough to change her mind. She wasn't at the junior world camp and although wiki still lists her as an alternate, I don't believe she still is.

ETA- Huang, Harrell, and McIssac are the jw alternates now.

 

[Sylvia]

She wasn't at the junior world camp and although wiki still lists her as an alternate, I don't believe she still is.

The 3 Junior Worlds alternates attended the camp -- photo link is posted at the end of my post here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...a-neat-little-bow.102969/page-11#post-5315779

 

[mirage]

I think the USFA needs a Michael Slipchuk. A High Performance Director who identifies talent, and works with skaters and their coaches to make sure they get the support they need both on and off the ice.

Depends who the skater is and how high a profile they have.

 

[B.Cooper]

The US skaters do not have control over the media demands. That is under the control of USFSA who needs to satisfy its agreements with NBC and other sponsors. I also think that it creates so much hype that inordinately pressures our skaters and has adverse effects on performance.

I disagree with this statement. Media appearances are determined by athletes management companies and the athletes. USFS is the conduit i.e. messenger for media requests. It is up to the athlete ultimately, as to how much or little they want to do.

 

[jenniferlyon]

Chen's father is the CEO of a biotech company. Zhou lives in Palo Alto, and his mother is a Silicon Valley computer scientist. That's not just upper middle class, it's upper class

Yeah, "child of immigrants" does not automatically mean poor/working class. In many cases, it's quite the opposite!

Nagasu lives in Arcadia, and her parents run a successful restaurant. She's also an only child, so all her parents' money is spent on her. Wagner's mother is a teacher, and her father had a long career in the military. That's upper middle class

A teacher is not upper-middle class. A public school teacher in a financially solid district with a strong union would be middle-middle class. A public school teacher in a poorer district would be lower-middle class. A lot of charter school teachers are paid so poorly that it would be a stretch to group them amongst the lower-middle class. With the military, it depends on how high up the ranks you are. It's possible to become upper-middle class, but assuming you get married and have kids at a typical age you probably won't attain upper-middle class status while your kids are young.

Harding, Galindo, and Kerrigan came from working class backgrounds...a few decades ago.

Yeah, different time period.

Michelle Kwan's situation was unique because the boom of the 1990s enabled her to earn her own money from tours, shows, etc. at an age when today's skaters aren't even allowed to compete at senior level. She was a child star.

 

[berthesghost]

I get the whole “kimmie faced less completion in 06” idea, but that was over a decade ago. Iirc Bradie has a 3z/3t and Karen has a 3f/3t but neither do both in the same lp like kimmie did 12 years ago. Plus neither has the rep for having landed a 3x. If the rest of the world has upped their game, why is the US doing less tech than over a decade ago?

 

[Seerek]

It's interesting to read this article since similar articles on golf, tennis, even speed skating and the track and field sprint events have been written with respect to the competitiveness of the American women.

 

[IloveFS]

I think that the US will have a very strong figure skating team in 2022.

 

[brennele]

The answer to the OP's question is fairly simple. It has become enormously and prohibitively expensive to compete in FS.......and it also take having a family/parents willing to make these kinds of sacrifices. We have no State sponsored programs for FS as is the case in other countries. The amount of money required is astronomical so it limits the pool of available candidates who can participate at all and thus even become possible top notch skaters. As the pool of candidates shrink, the odds for winning also proportionately decrease. Families make HUGE sacrifices - parents work several jobs, the family relocates or one parent does separating the family, other children in the family do not get equal attention or resources - money, money, money and then more money is needed. Many adults raising children simply will not accommodate this paradigm and so no matter how talented is a given skater, their efforts to the top get stalled. I will be totally honest with everyone; I absolutely would not do it i.e. make these kinds of decisions and sacrifices to facilitate a child who wanted to competitively skate. I doubt I am alone. In fact, it is probably more the rule than the exception.

Skating is not one of those things where if the parents won't help you, one can do it anyway. Top notch skaters need to start when they are young children, far younger than an age where someone can realistically do it on his own. Say you want to be a doctor or whatever and your parents won't help you out in any way. Well, you can get there totally on your own with absolutely no help from parents. It happens all the time. If you are 8 years old and want to be a skater, your parents MUST agree to go this route with you. It is not possible for an 8 or 9 year old - much less a 3 to 5 year old - to "do it on their own." They have no access to required resources at that age except through the parents. They can't get jobs at that age to support anything they might want to do. They are totally dependent on the parents to facilitate their goal. By the time you reach an age when you CAN do things on your own, it is way too late to start competitive figure skating.

 

[mag]

We have no State sponsored programs for FS as is the case in other countries.

From what I have read, the USFSA pays out more to skaters and does so for skaters at a lower level than Skate Canada. Unless you are top five in senior there is really no funding.

 

[brennele]

Mag, They may well pay out to the top tier skaters but think about how much money it takes to get to that level to even qualify for this sort of assistance. You need to put out enormous amounts of money to reach a level wherein you can even be considered a candidate for funding. Bottom line in all of this - one needs to have parents willing to put out a whole lot of money and make one whole lot of sacrifices in order to further someone's career as a FS. Most families either cannot or will not do that. There is literally no other option for an 8 year old whose family is not wiling to fork over the huge amounts of money needed. They cannot fund themselves and they can't wait until they are old enough to get a job of their own to start skating.

 

[mag]

@brennele Thanks for the explanation I was wondering about the dismal state of my chequing account

Seriously, I was responding to the statement that US skater’s don’t have state sponsored programs and other countries do. Canada also does not have state sponsored programs and, in fact, Canadian Skaters get even less funding than Americans.

 

[Gazpacho]

What is the availability of rinks in Canada? A lot of people in the United States don't have access to a rink and/or can use it only during the colder months.

 

[Spun Silver]

I get the whole “kimmie faced less completion in 06” idea, but that was over a decade ago. Iirc Bradie has a 3z/3t and Karen has a 3f/3t but neither do both in the same lp like kimmie did 12 years ago. Plus neither has the rep for having landed a 3x. If the rest of the world has upped their game, why is the US doing less tech than over a decade ago?

You mean, "everybody in the US except Mirai."

 

[mag]

What is the availability of rinks in Canada? A lot of people in the United States don't have access to a rink and/or can use it only during the colder months.

I think it varies greatly much like it does in the US. Hockey, as you can imagine, is first and foremost. You can put many more hockey player than figure skaters on an hour of ice so figure skating clubs have to fight for ice time and fight to not be bumped during tournaments.