American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

[Deleted member 40371]

If Americans want to get attention back to FS, they need star ladies, not men. I have to say this sport has always been like this, the ladies attract the most attention, huge deal and all. Image Zagitova were American... wow... she would become an international star like Kwan did.

She is already an International star.

 

[Frau Muller]

manhn, I don't know as they are doing anything "wrong" per se but people like to see OG winners coming from their country. It is only natural and the US is not exactly producing a whole bunch of them these days. Certain other countries are and the reason is largely rooted in economics. It is simply too expensive to produce elite skaters here in the US. I cannot speak to Canada. Rather than piss and moan about it why not simply enjoy the skaters coming out of other countries where there are different systems for financing elite FS.

It is not like anything is going to change here. I live in northern PA where we have a hardiness zone of 5b - way too cold to grow mangos or citrus fruit. That scenario is not going to change and I like those kinds of fruits. So I purchase and enjoy these items which are produced elsewhere. Would it be nice to grow them in my own land. Sure but that is not going to happen. We are not ever going to see State-sponsored FS here so we are just going to have to wait until the next elite skater comes up the pipeline. I am not holding my breath. Team events are nice and so are bronze medals. It is all nice but gold is the best and unless Chen get his head screwed on straight over the next 4 years, I don't see that coming in 2022. Moreover, truth-be-told, I like Hanyu's humility and humanitarian attitude a lot better, anyway. That counts for much. For me, it is about who they are as much as what they do on the ice. Mastery combined with humility and humanitarianism is the way to go in my book.

This does not bode well for future US tours of Stars (or...”Also-Rans”) on Ice, without skaters from other countries. If any of the Russian lady Senior or Junior medalists were added to the tour, I’d buy tickets in a heartbeat & make travel arrangements to see them!

 

[vesperholly]

P.S. Just for the record. Sambo-70 rink, where Eteri’s group trains, also has ice time issues, and often have to train with many other private lesson skaters and beginner groups, because Sambo/Kristalny rink IS commercial. Anyone wants to practice a Quad with all the little kids on the ice? http://xn---70-5cdf9dpu.xn--p1ai/file_handler.php?image=3841

Is that supposed to be an example of a crowded session? Because that looks great to me - I count two coaches and 10 skaters, no one in helmets or pre-school age. I've been on sessions with upwards of 20 people and it's impossible. My club capped our senior sessions at 18 and even that's not great.

 

[Meoima]

She is already an International star.

She is loved by the Japanese and Russian I guess. But not much by the NA audience?

 

[insideedgeua]

At least for the moment. TSL publicly reported it a days ago, but I had heard it before than. I think she quit shortly after Nationals, but she's young enough to change her mind. She wasn't at the junior world camp and although wiki still lists her as an alternate, I don't believe she still is.

ETA- Huang, Harrell, and McIssac are the jw alternates now.

Sorry, I'm a couple of weeks behind in reading this thread.

Two years ago, Tessa's mom told me all about their plans for her to skate at the 2018 Olympics and then go back to school, dropping back one year to make up for any missed school, graduate, go to college etc.

At the time I felt like they should be thinking more about 2022 perhaps, but of course I didn't say that.

It looks like maybe they have stuck with the plan to prioritise school over skating. It's a shame that they felt it had to be one or the other.

 

[insideedgeua]

Chen's father is the CEO of a biotech company. Zhou lives in Palo Alto, and his mother is a Silicon Valley computer scientist. That's not just upper middle class, it's upper class.

Nagasu lives in Arcadia, and her parents run a successful restaurant. She's also an only child, so all her parents' money is spent on her. Wagner's mother is a teacher, and her father had a long career in the military. That's upper middle class. [Edit: It seems I had a misconception about long time military men/women. I also know firsthand that many teachers don't make much at all, certainly not enough to be considered upper middle class unless they are married to a higher earner, and I apologize for implying otherwise.]

Harding, Galindo, and Kerrigan came from working class backgrounds...a few decades ago.

Upper class or not, I can tell you that Vincent's mom certainly hasn't worked full time in the last few years and they have done their fair share of renting small apartments and staying with friends to cut costs. They're certainly not living it up in Colorado Springs.

Similar for Mirai. Her parents (who I've only met briefly a couple of times) seem to be very hard workers, sacrificing what they can to support their daughter. Mirai rents her room in a family home and her family is supporting her. She's certainly not living in luxury. In fact, I'd say her main indulgence is her rescue dogs. They seem to be her source of both support and entertainment at times.

 

[giselle23]

This does not bode well for future US tours of Stars (or...”Also-Rans”) on Ice, without skaters from other countries. If any of the Russian lady Senior or Junior medalists were added to the tour, I’d buy tickets in a heartbeat & make travel arrangements to see them!

That may be an attraction for figure skating ubers, but not for the general public. I also think the US has lots of stars--skaters the public will pay to see. I have my tickets!

 

[giselle23]

One champion is enough. I am Canadian. We are used to huge gaps in our champs and those behind them.

True. The US doesn't need multiple champions or potential champions. They have one in men's (and maybe two if Vincent reaches his potential). They only need one in ladies--like they had for so many years with Peggy Fleming, Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamill, Linda Fratianne, Kristi Yamaguchi. None of those ladies had serious competition from their home country. The US was blessed during the Kwan era to have three top skaters in Michelle, Sasha and Sarah. But that was the exception, not the rule.

 

[VGThuy]

To me, the ladies field in the past 10 years or so is like what the 1999-2002 quad would have been without Michelle Kwan. We probably would have lost a third U.S. lady in 1999 and there would have been a lot of pressure on young Hughes, maybe Perl if she made it to Worlds, and veteran-ish Nikodinov and later Cohen (who would have won 2000 Nationals and probably wouldn't be able to go to Worlds in a Mirai Nagasu like fashion) and Kirk. I think the ladies without Kwan would have been put under a tight microscope with much bigger expectations and maybe Hughes and Cohen and others would not have been able to grow the way they did. Or maybe they were just warriors and would have.

 

[ZilphaK]

I may get run out of town on a rail for saying this, but I don't think kids at most levels need to compete both a long and short program. Taking short programs out of competition costs -- maybe at certain competitions or maybe just Intermediate and Novice -- would help defray costs for a lot of parents. I haven't thought this through, but honestly, with my own kid, we just stopped competing both programs at many competitions to save money. I think the difference it would make to most kids would be small, unless you were really making a run at Sectionals. And by Novice, you'd know whether or not you were.

 

[mag]

I may get run out of town on a rail for saying this, but I don't think kids at most levels need to compete both a long and short program. Taking short programs out of competition costs -- maybe at certain competitions or maybe just Intermediate and Novice -- would help defray costs for a lot of parents. I haven't thought this through, but honestly, with my own kid, we just stopped competing both programs at many competitions to save money. I think the difference it would make to most kids would be small, unless you were really making a run at Sectionals.

So this is what Skate Canada has done with the Star Program. The levels are Star 1 through 10 plus gold. Star 7 and 9 programs are the length and approximate requirements of prenovice/ Novice short programs. Kids go through star 1 to 5 then either move to pre juv then Juv etc or they stay in the Star stream (some kids move over to the competitive stream later as well.) In the Star stream kids can compete one program, or if they like they can compete two (for example Star 7 and 8 or star 9 and 10 or star 9 and gold.) That gives skaters and parents options. Juv Skaters sometimes will Skate Star 9 as well as preparation for pre Novice.

The only problem is that in some clubs kids in the Star stream are treated like second class citizens regardless of their Skating ability. When that happens, kids who really should be in the Star stream will stay on the competitive side because it gives them access to better practice sessions and more coaching. It is really too bad because it is detrimental to there progress. I can think of a number of kids who have left the sport because they simply don’t have the skills to be in the competitive stream, but because of the club culture will not “lower themselves” and Skate in the Star stream.

 

[gkelly]

I may get run out of town on a rail for saying this, but I don't think kids at most levels need to compete both a long and short program. Taking short programs out of competition costs -- maybe at certain competitions or maybe just Intermediate and Novice -- would help defray costs for a lot of parents. I haven't thought this through, but honestly, with my own kid, we just stopped competing both programs at many competitions to save money. I think the difference it would make to most kids would be small, unless you were really making a run at Sectionals.

That's one of the potential appeals for more recreational competitors of Test Track competition, and of teenagers who are capable of passing the intermediate and maybe novice tests staying in Open Juvenile.

Of course the jumps are even more limited in Test Track than in Open Juvenile.

Test Track is not very popular in my area. It seems even many recreational skaters prefer to enter standard events even if they know they won't place well. Going to regionals is a goal in itself. There's probably peer pressure to compete with their rink friends even if they can't keep up with them in skill level. And they may prefer the IJS feedback.

If they only want to prepare a long program, many club competitions allow skaters to enter just the freeskate as an independent event without also needing to sign up for the short program and complete it to skate the free.

And of course the fewer skaters sign up for Test Track events, the less attractive they are, which becomes a vicious cycle in keeping those events from gaining popularity.

But where ice time is limited (or individuals' are otherwise unable to skate many hours per week), it may be a better option for skaters who want to continue to test and compete without heavy time/money investment. And it would be all about keeping kids in the sport who aren't on track for elite success.

If test track events are often canceled, and it's hard to combine levels because of the very specific requirements and levels, would it be more attractive to have more inclusive recreational freestyle events for skaters who do want to keep advancing through the test structure?

I'm thinking something like:

Intermediate Classic Freeskate
2:40 maximum
5 jump elements, 2 of which may be combinations, that must include single axel plus any single jumps and up to 3 different double jumps of the skaters choice; no double axel allowed and perhaps no double-double combination
2 spins
1 step sequence
No age limits; must have passed Pre-Juvenile Freeskate (and Intermediate MIF?) and may not have passed Novice Freeskate

Advanced Classic Freeskate
3:50 maximum
6 jump elements, 3 of which may be combinations; must include an axel-type jump
maybe may include a maximum of 1 double axel or 1 triple jump but not both
3 spins
1 step sequence
No age limits; must have passed Intermediate Freeskate (and Novice MIF?)

For now, they would be judged under 6.0. If IJS becomes the norm for most events, these levels might specify a choreographic step sequence not a leveled one. Maybe one or all of the spins should also be unleveled with GOE only. See what the skaters prefer.

And skaters who have passed exactly through Intermediate would have the option of competing at either of these two levels.

The idea would be that skaters who want to test into/through the standard-track levels that go to regionals but don't want to commit to preparing short programs or competing against serious competitors could have an event that's more geared toward executing simpler elements with more emphasis on quality and performance skills.

Would that be more or less attractive than the current separate Test Track levels, or than Open Juv or entering standard novice and intermediate events with barely minimum skills to skate a legal short program, or junior or senior events without the necessary jumps at all?

None of which has anything to do with building champions, except insofar as keeping more people in the sport allows more local rinks to stay open or at least to keep offering ice time for figure skating, which makes it possible for potential champions to start figure skating at all even if they don't grow up near a training center.

 

[ZilphaK]

So this is what Skate Canada has done with the Star Program. The levels are Star 1 through 10 plus gold. Star 7 and 9 programs are the length and approximate requirements of prenovice/ Novice short programs. Kids go through star 1 to 5 then either move to pre juv then Juv etc or they stay in the Star stream (some kids move over to the competitive stream later as well.) In the Star stream kids can compete one program, or if they like they can compete two (for example Star 7 and 8 or star 9 and 10 or star 9 and gold.) That gives skaters and parents options. Juv Skaters sometimes will Skate Star 9 as well as preparation for pre Novice.

The only problem is that in some clubs kids in the Star stream are treated like second class citizens regardless of their Skating ability. When that happens, kids who really should be in the Star stream will stay on the competitive side because it gives them access to better practice sessions and more coaching. It is really too bad because it is detrimental to there progress. I can think of a number of kids who have left the sport because they simply don’t have the skills to be in the competitive stream, but because of the club culture will not “lower themselves” and Skate in the Star stream.

Adults always seem to find a way to ruin a good thing. Theater on Ice, synchro, even kids who "just" test...USFSA needs to lower the boom on coaches and clubs that treat any skater as a second class citizen. Because, guess what. I can point to any kid and say "You are NOT going to the Olympics, ever, and you are probably never going to Nationals" and I'll be right 999 times out of 1,000. (Check my math; I just made up those numbers.) (And, no, I would never really say that to a kid.) However, all skaters, as far as I can tell, pay the same cash to get on a rink. And rinks? They don't care if you're wearing figure skates, hockey skates or rental, as long as you are showing the money. Coaches also need to be honest with themselves that they aren't nor ever will be, in all probability, the next Frank Carroll AND THAT IS OK. First of all, who wants to wear a funny hat? But again, something more needs to be done via USFSA or PSA to more clearly set ratings for coaches. I know of top-rated coaches from these organizations who can't teach a lutz off the correct edge. (ETA: And there should be a way to indicate such things in the No-Test to Pre-Juv 6.0 competitions, so parents/coaches know sooner rather than later.) And parents new to the sport? They don't know.

Anyway...I'm agreeing with you. There are good ideas out there. But some grown-ups will always find a way to screw kids over. It sucks.

 

[brennele]

Jozet, Much depends on WHY the child is skating in the first place. If it is for pure enjoyment then the child does not need ANY of this stuff save for some basic lessons. When something is called a "sport" it means there is a competitive element to the whole thing and it would seem that both the kids and the parents want that. If you take the competitive element out of the whole thing then you have ballet, or piano lessons or skating at the local pond type of thing.........and that is fine. Such being the case, why does one even need a coach? A simple skating instructor who could bring them as far as double jumps would be just fine. But that is not, in fact, what the people - parents or kids - want. They DO want to compete and when it gets into that realm judgements are made as to who has the best prospects.

You are absolutely correct in saying that one person's money is as green as the next so anyone paying has xyz rights to full attention. Absolutely, you are correct and that is the problem. The coach MUST cater to parents and kids who pay the fee or else he is going to go on welfare for lack of a job. Eteri (I think that is her name) does not have to worry about any of that. She CAN say "you have a chance so (maybe) I will work with you and you don't so get out of my rink; you are in my way."

So it gets back to what I said initially....it becomes a matter of WHY one is skating in the first place. If the goal is to produce winners, than the Russian coach's style is the way to go. Using such tactics, she is going to crank them out. Your way is not, by comparison. We live in the USA - we hold sacred egalitarianism, fair play, etc. and yes, in the USA money talks. It talks big time.........but you are not going to compete on the world stage in FS with those principles. Perhaps, as you point out, there could be some more non-competitive FS activities for children so that people could participate for pure enjoyment. That is an absolutely great idea which you have brought forth. If one is simply skating for its own sake, why does one have to even do a triple jump, in the first place; a double would be more than enough and most kids who really enjoy skating could probably learn to do them - at least the easy ones - with the most basic sort of lessons. They are not THAT hard to do and you don't need a "coach" for that; an ordinary skating instructor running a group class could teach it although not everyone in the class will be able to do it. With group instruction, you reach a point where you can't go any further. I took swimming lessons in a class setting as a child and I did fine in all the classes until we reached the point where we had to dive. I absolutely could not do that. I doubt private lessons would have helped, ether. Trust me, I am the most non athletic thing on the face of the earth. If I could ice skate - just for fun - (and I did) when I was a child ANYBODY can. I am the person you use when you want to prove that something is an innate ability in everyone and requires virtually no training. Your idea of synchronized skating is also a great idea. It is absolutely it is the way to go and lots of fun for the kids ....but now I hear there is talk that it is going to become an Olympic event

You are also correct in that coaches absolutely SHOULD be certified and rated before taking people's money. Just understand that doing so will add to the cost. The certified coaches are going to charge more and everyone is going to want them.

 

[mag]

@brennele do you have a child in sport, in skating?

 

[overedge]

The only problem is that in some clubs kids in the Star stream are treated like second class citizens regardless of their Skating ability. When that happens, kids who really should be in the Star stream will stay on the competitive side because it gives them access to better practice sessions and more coaching. It is really too bad because it is detrimental to there progress. I can think of a number of kids who have left the sport because they simply don’t have the skills to be in the competitive stream, but because of the club culture will not “lower themselves” and Skate in the Star stream.

I've seen this too.

To me a big plus of the Star stream is that, if the skater takes tests, that is something that looks really good on an application or a resume. "Passed [Bronze/Silver/Gold] skating test" is a tangible accomplishment that demonstrates hard work and commitment to potential employers or college/university programs. Skate Canada and clubs should promote that more.

 

[brennele]

Mag, I do not have a child in the sport of FS. I was thinking back to my days of classes in swimming at the YMCA. There are competitive swimmers for sure but the classes were a group thing which we participated in for fun. You had classes once or twice per week and then there were open swim times when you could swim, also for fun. There was never any thought during the classes that one was going to become a competitive swimmer. You stayed in one class until the instructor told you to register for the next level up. When you reached your limit, you stopped but you still participated in free swim time and swam for the fun of it. It was a group fun thing to do. We made friends; we swam together - different people at different levels. They had gymnastics classes and it was the same deal. You stayed in one class until the instructor told you to register for the next level but it was more of a social thing where you made friends and had fun.

I stopped at the class before you needed to pass diving to move on. It was wonderful and we loved it. Nobody thought of become an Olympic or competitive swimmer although no doubt a few who took classes at the YMCA did eventually become so. Seems to me with FS, it is all about the competition from the get go. There is no being in it just for fun or child enrichment, for making friends or enjoying group activities. Once we reached a point which was the limit of our abilities, we just stopped taking classes or continued with the same class and just swam up to the level that we learned. There was no hiring of private coaches or private lessons or anything like that. Seems to me like with FS, it is at the back of everyone's mind that they are going to be an elite skater but for spending yet more money in training. The parents spend more and more money for the child to keep passing levels when, in reality, they are never going to be elite skaters. When the coach tells them they are never going to be an elite skater, the mother resents it. We used to have ice skating parties at the local rink also and that was fun, too. Like I said, if I could skate, anyone can do so. I am very non-athletic. Now it seems to be all about competition.

 

[gkelly]

Did you enter races at local swim meets, even if you knew you weren't going to race anywhere beyond the local level?

Are you familiar with all the different competition formats that are available to kids who skate in the US these days?

Learn to Skate competitions (skaters who skate less often may stay at these levels for years)
Test Track events up to senior level (although they tend to be more popular at lower levels)
Spin events
Jump events
Compulsory moves events (sort of like less-formal short programs for juvenile level and below; like the spin and jump events, they're performed on half ice without music)
Light entertainment/Dramatic entertainment/Showcase events
Solo dance
Interpretive events
etc.

Also Synchronized Skating and Theatre on Ice for skaters interested in team skating/camaraderie.

Some of those are more about skill development for lower-level skaters who may have set their sights on competing at higher-level standard track events as they continue in the sport, especially true of those who start young. Some are alternative events that attract skaters who may be more interested in the artistic aspects of skating or in on-ice skills than in jumping.

Some of those disciplines do have serious competitive structures and do attract some skaters who are interested in being the best and winning medals.

Others are really just for fun.

Some skaters train and compete in multiple different disciplines, including standard-track freestyle. Others do only serious events; others only more relaxed events.

Seems to me like with FS, it is at the back of everyone's mind that they are going to be an elite skater but for spending yet more money in training. The parents spend more and more money for the child to keep passing levels when, in reality, they are never going to be elite skaters.

It really depends on the family. Some kids really want to achieve the highest skill level and results possible and their families are able to support that desire. Some parents really want their kids to be champion skaters and push them to train hard and aim for competitive success.

But at any given local rink/club (i.e., not a training center), only a minority of kids will be serious competitors at regional level or above in singles skating. Pairs and dance are almost nonexistent outside training centers. A larger group of local club members will be young skaters aiming to reach regionals as juveniles/intermediates and if possible beyond, but not all of them will end up doing so. And another group of skaters will be those who started later or are unable to train many hours per week or not interested in doing so, who focus on less serious competition tracks.

And some just focus on goals of passing tests or performing club or rink shows and don't compete at all.

Tests and shows are not structured as skaters competing against each other at all. Shows can be fun and informal and involve duets or group numbers. But many skaters do choose to enter competitions even if they're not motivated by competitive instincts, just because it's a goal to work toward and the most common opportunity to show off what they've been working on.

For adult skaters, which is where I have the most personal experience, most skaters tend to be friendly and supportive of the other skaters they compete against. But placing well can be a goal to measure how well we have mastered technical and performance skills.

When the coach tells them they are never going to be an elite skater, the mother resents it.

That is undoubtedly true for some skaters. In other cases, the coach tells the parent or skater what they would need to do to become an elite skater, and the parent or skater tells the coach that isn't what they're aiming for -- they don't have the money for intense training, or they want to skating to be a casual hobby while their top priority is education, or they have other outside interests that they want to continue to pursue alongside skating, etc.

Ideally, skaters will find coaches who are supportive of their personal skating goals and not stuck in a mindset that only elite competition matters.

Of course if their goal is to go as far as they can in serious competition, then they need a coach who can take them where they want to go, and they and their families will need to make sacrifices that more recreational skaters wouldn't make.

If you're looking at the skaters who do make it to Nationals and beyond, you're seeing serious competitors. If you go to a freestyle session at a local rink, or a small club competition, you'll see mostly skaters who are not aiming at serious competition.

Why do skaters take private lessons when not aiming for high-level competition? That has been the model for most instruction beyond beginning levels within the US. I think one main reason is that every skater is different, with different strengths and weaknesses, different learning styles, etc.

Kids who start young and focus on standard-track freestyle competition with a goal of competing at regionals and beyond may belong to a cohort with multiple skaters of similar age and skill level who skate at the same rink. So group lessons at middle levels might serve these average skaters well and let them get more instruction for their money than if they took only private lessons.

But skaters who start at later ages will not move up the levels on the same schedule as either more advanced agemates or younger kids who started at the same time. Skaters who are more interested in artisticly oriented than in technical events will want a different focus in their lessons. Skaters who want to move through the tests quickly will want to train at a different pace than skaters who want to win at each level before moving up. So all of the above might not be able to find a class with appropriate classmates even if the local rink or club tried to emphasize group instruction.

(Oh, and some parents will find it easier to get their kids to the rink before school, some immediately after school or in the evening, some on weekends; some kids may already be homeschooled before starting skating and thus more flexible to skate during the day. When the rink makes figure skating ice time available at all will limit the possibilities, because public skating, hockey, and beginner lessons will often claim the most popular times. If there is more than one choice of figure skating time, it may not be possible to get all the skaters of similar age and skill level into one class all at the same time.)

And of course the minority of skaters who do have high talent and high motivation to win will want to go beyond classes offered for the average standard-track skaters at their rink. Which may or may not be possible with the local coaches.

 

[brennele]

gkelly, it is very reassuring to learn that there are the sorts of formats and activities you mentioned. I was absolutely not aware that these sorts of formats were being offered to young people, these days. It is a very good thing. Thank you for taking the time out to outline the ways in which kids can enjoy FS without all of the competitive pressures traditionally associated with it over the last few decades. It is good to know that not all moms are stage moms living vicariously through the child. It is also good to know FS can be fun for kids today without all the baggage attached to it. It was certainly so when I was a child. I don't think anyone ever connected the dots between what we were doing at skating parties or informal skating in the local ponds with what we saw on TV. The two were worlds apart and the one had nothing to do with the other. The activities you have outlined are excellent for young people.

 

[gkelly]

There's a lot of figure skating at many different levels in between elite competition and pond or public session skating, that would bridge the wide divide between those extremes.

The place to find it is at local rinks, not on TV and not on ponds.

 

[skateboy]

Skateboy, Oh it is much, much less humble. Before the whole debacle, Chen was coming across as rather arrogant in the various interviews he conducted.

We'll agree to disagree. Nathan did say that he felt he was capable of winning gold at the Olympics (and he was), but I didn't find that any more arrogant than Yuzu projecting a second Olympic gold for himself, which he said quite a lot before his injury. In a joint interview with Shoma, Yuzu complimented Shoma but then said to his face, "but I'm going to beat you." Not particularly humble in my opinion (but I love both Yuzu and Nathan and am not too concerned with their public images).

As for the US ladies, would it be a good idea, or even possible, to do more of what Eteri's doing that works so well? I've seen that, aside from individual coachings, she's got all her students in lots of dance classes and more. I don't have enough info on US training to know if there's much of that going on or not.

 

[MacMadame]

I may get run out of town on a rail for saying this, but I don't think kids at most levels need to compete both a long and short program. Taking short programs out of competition costs -- maybe at certain competitions or maybe just Intermediate and Novice -- would help defray costs for a lot of parents. I haven't thought this through, but honestly, with my own kid, we just stopped competing both programs at many competitions to save money. I think the difference it would make to most kids would be small, unless you were really making a run at Sectionals. And by Novice, you'd know whether or not you were.

I am confused. At Regionals, all levels through Juvenile only perform a FS, not a SP. I have never seen a SP event for Juvenile or below at a local club comp either. (Why would you if you don't need it for Regionals?)

At these levels, if there enough entrants, there is a qualifying round, which is also the FS. And then the top skaters skate their FS again.

SP starts at Intermediate but usually at club comps skaters can enter one or the other or both. You only need a SP and a FS if you plan to compete at Regionals. Lots of the young girls only compete the FS. Even at higher levels you will see skaters only doing the SP or only the FS at a club comp.

 

[brennele]

Skateboy, perhaps arrogant was too strong a word as applied to Chen during his pre-performance interviews but he definitely does not have a handle on dealing with the media and questions the way Hanyu does. Hanyu says all the right things and he wins over everyone. You just can't help but loving Hanyu once he says anything. How Hanyu reacts to his friends and peers like Shoma is irrelevant. Two men who know one another well, talking to each other...... big deal. What he said to Shoma was rather mild, indeed. If he was an American skater talking to his rival, he would have said something to the effect of "I'll will kick your ass out there from here into next year" or something akin to that and he would have used a lot stronger language to boot. But, he did not say that. Hanyu has class. Bottom line, everyone loves Hanyu. He not only knows how to masterfully skate but he knows how to handle the press and anyone else with whom he speaks. He is a class act.

Now let's get to Chen. Not such a class act. He does not handle the media well and he needs to learn how to do so. It is not enough to just skate well. I listened to several of his interviews and I would not exactly say they exuded humility or grace. He came across as a bit full of himself. We need a whole package. He needs some training in this area, for sure. Moreover, the man fell apart at the seams at the Olympics. We are not talking about having an "off' day. We are talking total disaster in the face of outstanding ability. That comes from his mind. It went far beyond a bit of performance jitters and it went far beyond the fact that he is only 18. He needs lots of work in this mental preparedness are and hopefully he will pursue it. Inexperience is one thing. Completely falling apart and having a meltdown on the ice is quite something else. He needs a lot of work in this area.

In answer to your question about Eteri, it is impossible to implement her style in the US. First of all, the State is paying her salary and her students are not paying for her services. Neither are her students paying for any of their other expenses. The government is picking up the tab. Russia wants her to win as much as possible and they are not only going to pay her salary but they are going to stand behind her 100%. She has a track record. She can be as harsh and "unfair" as she likes and she is answerable to no one but the entity which hires her. That scenario could never occur in the US. First of all, we don't have state-supported sports and second of all she would be answerable to all manner of persons who might object to her methodology and, moreover, since they were directly paying her, might insist on having a say in what she does. We do not, in the US, have a system in place to crank out winners; Russia does. Our biggest setback is the cost of producing an elite skater. Our second biggest drawback is all of the people we have here who would insist on telling her how to do her job and then limiting what she could and could not do. She could not run the show with an iron fist in the US as she is now doing in Russia. Eteri and the US would mix like oil and water. So what is the bottom line in all of this. She is going to continue to crank out winners on a regular basis and we, in the US, will have some OG here and there. Who knows, in four years maybe it will be Chen if he gets his act together. There is a good chance that might happen but Chen needs to fix a whole lot of things first.

 

[jlai]

I think fans need to stop psychoanalyze skaters based on a few interviews. Fans will always find something to pick apart.

Most top skaters are confident in what they do and you can always find a way to interpret their confidence as ego, narcissistic etc. because guess what, it does take some ego and look-at-me-ism to succeed at this level.
I don't find any top skaters to be more egoistic than any other but your preference will vary on how skaters say things to make them look humble and non narcissistic, when in fact they all are to some extent.

You know who was not narcissistic? Jeremy Abbott. Back when he was skating he came across as apologetic-ish, and we all know how well he competed

 

[ZilphaK]

usually at club comps skaters can enter one or the other or both.

Some competitions combine short and long program for final winners, although they usually give SP medals. Even then, I think kids and parents often feel pressured by coaches to train both. Maybe it would take something more, like a directive to no longer have an Intermediate short. That would give parents one more year of sanity. I'd take it out of Novice, as well. We have so few kids going to Novice international events, I'm sure the few that are being sent could be cherry-picked beforehand to put together a SP.

 

[gkelly]

I am confused. At Regionals, all levels through Juvenile only perform a FS, not a SP.

Juvenile is the first qualifying level, and yes it involves only a freeskate.

Any level below juvenile does not really go to Regionals. Most host clubs for regionals also hold a big nonqualifying competition at the same time or the week before or after that they call "nonqualifying regionals" which can be an exciting big deal for lower-level skaters to attend, but it doesn't count for anything beyond itself. At most, there may be initial rounds and final rounds for the events with large numbers of entries. But winning the final round at those competitions doesn't really make one a regional champion in any meaningful sense.

I have never seen a SP event for Juvenile or below at a local club comp either. (Why would you if you don't need it for Regionals?)

I have seen it.
Often juvenile level skaters choose to "skate up" to the intermediate short program at club competitions, and then stay in juvenile for the freeskate. This may include skaters who are still deciding whether to test up to intermediate before September, or skaters who definitely plan to stay Juvenile for another year or two but who want the experience of skating a short program so it won't be new to them when they do move up, or just for fun if they enjoy the process of training and competing an extra program. For the most ambitious juveniles, it might be an opportunity to try out a triple-in-progress in an intermediate competition, since triples are not allowed in juvenile.

Probably mostly for scheduling reasons, some larger club competitions with multiple groups of intermediate short programs would assign all the skaters registered for Intermediate SP plus Juvenile FS to the same SP group(s), making it in essence a competition among juvenile skaters but with intermediate rules. And the top finishers could qualify for the Intermediate SP final round to compete alongside top finishers from the purely Intermediate groups.
I know Liberty used to do this -- I don't know if the successor Philadelphia Summer Competition still does.

Other club competitions offer a separate "Juvenile SP" event as a special event for that
competition. It would be open to skaters who have passed the juvenile or pre-juvenile but not intermediate FS test and could use different rules than the Intermediate SP. Usually exactly the same as intermediate except no triples allowed.

The existence of these events indicate that there is a significant number of juvenile skaters and some pre-juveniles who WANT to skate an extra program. Usually those who aspire to be more competitive in the near future. But it is entirely optional.


Also there are Compulsory Events for juvenile level and below, and adult levels, that are usually skated on half-ice (sometimes full ice for juvenile) without music. These are kind of equivalent to short programs, but much less formal. Kids, and adults, enter them for fun and to develop skills. They don't take a lot of preparation time; of course if they were being used in qualifying events then skaters would invest a lot more time in perfecting them.

At these levels, if there enough entrants, there is a qualifying round, which is also the FS. And then the top skaters skate their FS again.

SP starts at Intermediate but usually at club comps skaters can enter one or the other or both. You only need a SP and a FS if you plan to compete at Regionals. Lots of the young girls only compete the FS. Even at higher levels you will see skaters only doing the SP or only the FS at a club comp.

Yes, this is all true.

Some competitions combine short and long program for final winners, although they usually give SP medals. Even then, I think kids and parents often feel pressured by coaches to train both. We have so few kids going to Novice international events, I'm sure the few that are being sent could be cherry-picked beforehand to put together a SP.

Maybe it would take something more, like a directive to no longer have an Intermediate short. That would give parents one more year of sanity. I'd take it out of Novice, as well.

You mean, take the short programs out of regionals and sectionals and Nationals at those levels too?

That would probably make these important competitions even more stressful in events that become do-or-die one-program, one-day only, with no chance for redemption and less opportunity to demonstrate consistency.

The Intermediate singles SP was added about 20 years ago, and the Intermediate pairs SP I think less than 10 years ago. As far as I can tell USFS felt there was a need for short programs for competitive skaters at this level.

There is no requirement for less competitive skaters to enter regionals, so why should the structure of qualifying competitions be designed to favor the more casual skaters at the expense of those who are actually pouring a lot into the effort to qualify?

There are plenty of opportunities for less competitive intermediate through senior skaters to compete freeskates only -- just not at regionals:

*Enter club competitions that offer Short Program and Freeskate as separate events
*Enter high school and collegiate team-based events
*Enter Test Track competitions (or replace them with something like the Classic Freeskate competitions I posited above)
*(for teens deciding whether or not to test up to intermediate): Choose Open Juvenile instead

If they want to prepare a short program only, they could register for a combined event and withdraw after the short. Although that might involve wasting higher entry fees.

 

[soogar]

As for the US ladies, would it be a good idea, or even possible, to do more of what Eteri's doing that works so well? I've seen that, aside from individual coachings, she's got all her students in lots of dance classes and more. I don't have enough info on US training to know if there's much of that going on or not.

Maybe a coach needs to get on that. Brian Orser has a similar system with Tracy Wilson and David Wilson working in the same complex (and a team of coaches) where the his group gets everything taken care of. Eteri has a great system set up where she has people taking care of everything from group dance classes and choreography. Plus a group of talented skaters training together will produce better results. The only difference is that here it seems there is more of a focus on individual lessons and usually top competitors do not train with with the same coach. If you look at skating in the 90's, when Sasha was training with Nicks she was also training with Naomi Nari Nam as well. Having this top competitor pushed her to get better.

 

[ZilphaK]

That would probably make these important competitions even more stressful in events that become do-or-die one-program, one-day only, with no chance for redemption and less opportunity to demonstrate consistency.

Well...I'm just not convinced that winning or doing well at Juvenile, Intermediate or even Novice at any one Nationals is so important in the long run that chances for redemption or showing consistency are all that important, at least not when balanced with the $$$ involved in training two programs or feeling the pressure to train two because, as was mentioned elsewhere, kids who aren't would be throttled somehow by clubs. Also, many years, kids who have been consistent all year and are "known" strong competitors have one bad Regionals or Sectionals skate that is enough to take them off the podium and moving to the next level.

I know it's a radical idea. I get that. One idea would to be to have a -- dare I say it -- Body of Work ranking, a set of scores gained via entering a number of approved competitions, as in the Solo Dance, that give kids access to Nationals via combined scores. That would also bypass the problem of otherwise strong skaters in tough regions not getting to Nationals because they had one or two anomaly skates at Regionals or were in a super-tough field. I'm not sure whether clubs gain or lose money on Regionals or Sectionals, but if money is being lost by USFSA on Regionals and Sectionals, having a number of qualifying club competitions, again, like the Solo Dance, would solve that problem as well. ETA: It could also defray costs for skaters in large regions like South Atlantic where kids from Florida need to travel to Pennsylvania or vice versa for Regionals.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[clairecloutier]

I guess I don't understand what is gained by eliminating the SP from Novice?? I mean yes, parents would save some choreography costs by not having to have an SP created. But once you have the SP, exactly how does it add that much more expense to training? Having seen a Novice lady training this past year, my experience is she ran the SP once or twice a day and that was it. If she hadn't been running her SP, I'm sure she would have been practicing elements or something, it's not like she would just drop that training time if the SP went away.

I see a lot of reasons to keep the SP. As @gkelly argued, it gives skaters 2 chances per competition to make their case, which is helpful for young skaters learning to handle nerves and pressure. My experience so far in following Novice competition is there sometimes tends to be a lot of shifts in the standings from program to program and event to event--having 2 programs makes it more likely, probably, that the best skater comes out on top in each event. Plus it offers more opportunities for skaters to develop their performance quality and artistry. 2 programs gives you the opportunity to perform more than 1 style per season and learn what works for you.

 

[Sylvia]

In Japan, Novice Nationals (A & B divisions) only compete a free skate.