2026 Olys Free Dance PBP - Whale, Are We Ready For Some Bull Sheet Scores?

tony said:
And I’ve said for years that Chock twizzles should get the same scrutiny for rotating in place, the video from every angle shows it, and people come back with me being a hater. So what’s the difference? Her issue is also in the negative criteria side, maxing the element at +3.
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What's the difference? There are two.

1) "Lacking or reducing speed of rotation and/or speed across the ice" is a subjective point. Chock is not rotating in place (I could see the tracing), but she is also not moving particularly well. Is this a negative feature? Or is it just not a positive feature? Entirely subjective, and many panels and judges see it differently. By all means, I'd like to see it addressed in an objective way so that, for example, the French judge cannot say they rotated in place while the Italian judge says they did not. Perhaps technology can help address with a defined tolerance.

2) Four judges did give it a +3 (assuming a negative feature), and three more a +4 (assuming a lack of a positive feature). I disagree with two +5s, neither of which was from the US judge and one of which was thrown out. (One of the +5s was from the Canadian judge, who was quite harsh to C&B overall.) By and large, this element was scored correctly, and there's no indication that pro-C&B judges were ignoring the rules in their favor. It's a subjective point and not "provable" with video or otherwise. A reasonable person could watch those twizzles live and on replay and think Chock did enough not to warrant a negative feature.
 
Here's where I come down on this - there are people who were in the arena who say that FBCiz definitively won the night for them. There are people in the arena who say that ChoBat definitively won the night.

It's clear that the French judge's GOE was egregiously out of line for both FBCiz and ChoBat. That's a problem.

It can also be said that with a differently composed judging panel for the RD and/or no French judge for the FD that ChoBat would have won. That's a problem.

To the general public a scoring system that is so opaque and could have a different result if the judges drawn for each segment were different judges is NOT inherently fair. It doesn't matter what we, as longtime fans, are willing to accept as just being the way things are. When I type that out, when I read the comments from others pointing out how ChoBat (or any other team that has been derided in the past) have benefited from questionable/dodgy calls & GOEs, etc, it makes me think we're all the battered/abused person in a relationship finding excuses and rationales to defend the abuser, which in this case is ice dance judging in particular and figure skating judging in general.

There are people who are offering up some good suggestions on different ways to fix the scoring system and, from my vantage point, it would be nice to see more of a discussion about that instead of defending a questionable result from a flawed, overly complex judging system.
 
tony said:
But it’s very selective in ‘oh no the judges didn’t do the right thing’. And I’ve been calling for reform since I was basically a toddler, so there’s that too.
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I remember when you interviewed a judge (?) On your blog back in 2010! Back then the angsting was about quads and PCS rather than the ice dance, but there have always been issues with the system and the judging.

Also, anyone who has ever taken a basic statistics/research methods for social sciences class should know that there's not going to be perfect interjudge reliability. It's not the outliers that concern me so much as the systemic issues.
 
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lemondrop said:
I’m a decades-long lurker member here but feel compelled to add my 2 cents. I am still pissed that B&B got the gold over Klimova/Pon in 88.
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I’m still pissed for the same, but also still pissed that Blumberg/Seibert were robbed of bronze in 1984 in K/P’s favor.

I read the PBP at work before I went home to watch the taped stream, and from the real-time reaction here, I expected to see a twizzle mistake by Cizeron at best like Fabbri’s struggles in his non-dominant direction and at worst like Fear’s. From the front camera angle, which was closer to the judges’ view, I almost missed it, since he was behind FB, and it looked to me like he might have come out slightly earlier. It wasn’t until I saw the replay from the behind angle that I could see how severe it was.

I don’t often take judges’ sides on anything, but while I don’t think this was a flutz corner or deliberate placement made to obscure a crash catch on a twist, or even couples who regularly seem to do twizzles so that the stronger skater is always directly in front of the weaker, these are situations where more cameras and algorithms could tag flaws that must be reviewed, even if the review is resolved in the skaters’ favor.

Where there is a single level, then the level is a separate call from quality, which it makes me crazy when Barton goes on and on about “missing” features, because there’s a difference between showing a poor effort to execute additional features and simply choosing to do a better quality element with fewer features. Where there are two levels, though, the difference means that either both didn’t meet the level requirements doing the same things — twizzles, side-by-side non-touch ssteps — or they didn’t each complete the difficult turns/key points where they each have different requirements for doing different things: they either did them or didn’t. But the judges don’t see those levels, and that gives them an out. Perhaps they need call symbols like for jumps in singles to show they must apply mandatory deductions that cap GOE, an indication like ! Is a one-level discrepancy, < is a two-level discrepancy, << is a three or more-level discrepancy. And I also think they should call individual levels, but the lowest should prevail overall. It’s a team.)
 
I really feel for Chock and Bates. Having people outraged on your behalf feels great at first, but it soon becomes effing exhausting because you have to manage their emotions as much as your own. Maybe they want to celebrate winning 2 Olympic medals, but they can't because the media and fans won't stop calling one a travesty and commiserating instead of congratulating. Maybe they want to be mad as hell and burn effigies of the French and the judges, but they can't because the intense scrutiny is forcing them to be gracious good sports over and over again.

I hope they can go off to a nice private beach with a fully stocked bar and just deal with their own selves for a while.
 
I do think as uninformed as the general public is about skating and the rules of IJS, they offer a useful perspective of how it looks to people who make judgments on what they see and what should be rewarded and penalized. Now, different audiences will have different reactions. I read comments for an article published by The Guardian (headline called FB/C “sinister”), and they were more pro-French than most others I’ve read. Of course, a lot of the comments brought up Trump, so general public will general public.

The point is, they offer a perspective that we hardcore fans forget because, for better or worse, we’ve conditioned ourselves to accept unethical behavior that our key defenses are whataboutism. The truth is nobody cared about judging at Worlds or the GP series because the general public doesn’t care about figure skating outside of the Olympics. With normalizing this behavior and having judging rules that are so subjective and up to wide interpretation and discretion that anyone with half a brain can make an argument to support their scores that the whole thing should be void for vagueness, people will remain not caring and only us pedantic fans who love to play with numbers and enjoy the drama of politicking will watch this sport on a regular basis.
 
If you took the average score of the judges and then replaced the outlier judge's mark, would that have changed the result?
 
I have no ability to judge the tech. C/B were certainly fiercer in my eyes but I know that doesn't mean they were better. But comparing how each program made me, the spectator, feel I would have put Canada 1st & the French last. When Piper & Paul finished their program I had tears. The other 2 didn't do that to me. Too bad they don't give points for my emotions.

I probably wouldn't be calling foul on the judging if the judge in question was anyone other than the same one who cheated in 2002. Why are they still using her for internationals? She shouldn't be allowed to do any except local comps. The ISU doesn't seem to care about figure skating. Why don't they bring back the toe-tapping judges?
 
Ka3sha said:
but they are now arguing against the very same vehicle (aka the judges' support) that had been helping them for the last 4 years.
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C&B aren't arguing with the results at all.

PRlady said:
Yes, their performance was better but it was because it showed off their superior skating skills. Chock’s FD did highlight their skill at storytelling and drama but maybe it wasn’t quite the right story. It was very close.
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Except C&B's story doesn't work that well this time because Evan was not a Bull except for a few seconds here and there. They also didn't perform it full out. And the cape ended up distracting in a way it didn't with stronger performances. Bottom line: this FD was not a good vehicle for them.

The issue I have with ice dance judging is that it rewards skating skill over all else because of the choreo elements. The features/judging point for the choreo elements are about skating skill more than storytelling or performance. And that is why, when both teams did not skate their best, the team with the better skating skills won, IMO.

Baby Yoda On Skates said:
Also at least from the venue feed angle, Laurence was in front of him and I almost missed his stumble. Had to rewind to catch it.
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OTOH, I gasp when he stumbled and yelled to Mr Mac, "Did he just try to make a mistake look like choreography? He did!" 🤷
 
From some Facebook "expert" when I said there's no judging scandal:

"Nope. It’s the same scandal that occurred with the Canadian pairs team years ago. The French judge scored the Americans eight full points lower than every other judge. That brings bias into question. Try again."

I love the little condescending "try again" at the end. I've noticed people who use those the most tend to know the least.
 
terisa said:
From some Facebook "expert" when I said there's no judging scandal:

"Nope. It’s the same scandal that occurred with the Canadian pairs team years ago. The French judge scored the Americans eight full points lower than every other judge. That brings bias into question. Try again."

I love the little condescending "try again" at the end. I've noticed people who use those the most tend to know the least.
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You should reply with that. And then explain that the French judge's highest scores were all thrown out.
 
MacMadame said:
C&B aren't arguing with the results at all.
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I obviously haven't seen all of their interviews, but they have mentioned the "fair judgment" and that they would have considered an appeal, if possible in skating, at least twice.

I think they have handled the defeat much better and more professionally on the day of the event when they were talking to the sports press, and major kudos for that. But there are a few very simple sentences they could have said to the American press / tabloids to stop that judging scandal narrative, and they didn't do it
 
They’re playing the game and trying to be diplomatic. The US media is desperate for some kind of figure skating scandal for ratings and clicks. Even better that it’s the French who are the villains. Next thing you know they’ll be callng them “Freedom Fries” again. ;)
 
For the record, the first set of twizzles of FBC was absolutely incredible. The exit of the second one was the only issue with sequence of twizzles, and despite it I could definitely see how it could get +3/+4

I'm less content with the GOE for the lift tbh.

But overall, the only reasons why this "scandal" even exists, are that C/B are Americans and they have been absolutely inexplicably held up beyond any reason above very equally matched(or better) competitiors for the last 2 years.
 
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Andrey aka Pushkin said:
For the record, the first set of twizzles of FBC was absolutely incredible. The exit of the second one was the only issue with sequence of twizzles, and despite it I could definitely see how it could get +3/+4

I'm less content with the GOE for the lift tbh.

But overall, the only reasons why this "scandal" even exists, are that C/B are Americans and they have been absolutely inexplicably held up beyond any reason above very equally matched(or better) competitiors for the last 2 years.
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I agree with this. It's like they expected to get the gold ... they experienced a pattern of getting the gold in other competition no matter what. Maybe even a sense of being entitled to the gold.

I listened to a podcast by Polina Edmunds who was in the arena in Milan. She had a good description of the top three skates which I felt was very enlightening.

I'm really done with this drama and truthfully, with C/B. I am ready for the next generation of ice dancers to be in the spotlight.
 
I don't think C/B thought it was a done deal as long as they skated well starting from the moment they learned that FB/C were skating seriously. They may have hoped that it wouldn't work out for any number of reasons -- needing time to gel, not getting a boost after early start orders (with no/few WS points), FB not getting citizenship in time, inexperience together resulting in errors, etc. -- but it's never a done deal if you're counting on others to be worse, not you being better.
 
I wouldn't have had a problem with FB/C winning had ChoBats won the free dance.

I also have a problem with them getting perfect, max scores on elements they have performed better in the past that did not receive perfect marks. That was a better score than they received for skating perfectly. To me, it looks like the judges said, yes, we have to take off for the mistake, but we're going to overcompensate by giving them over-the-top GOE on everything else, GOE they did not deserve at this event. In other outings, yes, but not here, not that night.
 
Matryeshka said:
I wouldn't have had a problem with FB/C winning had ChoBats won the free dance.

I also have a problem with them getting perfect, max scores on elements they have performed better in the past that did not receive perfect marks. That was a better score than they received for skating perfectly. To me, it looks like the judges said, yes, we have to take off for the mistake, but we're going to overcompensate by giving them over-the-top GOE on everything else, GOE they did not deserve at this event. In other outings, yes, but not here, not that night.
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I have no problem with Canadians winning free dance and the French second or third but stayed ahead over all
 
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