1992 FD vs. 2002 FD, which 5/4 split for first is more mystifying

[escaflowne9282]

In viewing all of these recent ice dance threads, I found myself having the same reaction to both the FD judging in 1992, as well as 2002. In both cases, the winner of the FD seemed clear to me as K&P and A&P respectively, and yet it seemed to come down to one judge .

In the case of 1992 , I was under the impression that even with a win in the FD , the Duschenays still likely wouldn't have been able to pull off the win due to their 3rd place CDs.

In any case
1992 , Klimova and Ponamarenko

[HD] Marina Klimova and Sergei Ponomarenko - 1992 Albertville Olympic - Free Dance

Marina Klimova and Sergei Ponomarenko / Марина Климова, Серге́й Пономаренко / マリナ・クリモワ, セルゲイ・ポノマレンコ[HD] 1992 Albertville Olympics - PlaylistsIce Dance - Free...

youtu.be

Duschenay and Duschenay

[HD] Isabelle Duchesnay and Paul Duchesnay - 1992 Albertville Olympic - Free Dance

Isabelle Duchesnay and Paul Duchesnay / Изабель Дюшене, Поль Дюшене / イザベル・デュシュネー, ポール・デュシュネー[HD] 1992 Albertville Olympics - PlaylistsLadies - Free Skating...

youtu.be

2002 , Anissina and Peizerat

2002 OG Anissina Peizerat FD

youtu.be

Lobacheva and Averbukh

Lobacheva & Averbukh (RUS) - 2002 Salt Lake City, Ice Dancing, Free Dance

Salt Lake City, Utah, USA - 2002 Winter Games, Ice Dancing, Free Dance - Irina Lobacheva and Ilia Averbukh of Russia placed 2nd in the Free Dance to win the ...

youtu.be

 

[tony]

D/D for miles and miles. Their creativity was their strong point (because skating skills weren’t it) and that program was a total dud without any of the magic they built their results upon.

 

[Taso]

In viewing all of these recent ice dance threads, I found myself having the same reaction to both the FD judging in 1992, as well as 2002. In both cases, the winner of the FD seemed clear to me as K&P and A&P respectively, and yet it seemed to come down to one judge .

In the case of 1992 , I was under the impression that even with a win in the FD , the Duschenays still likely wouldn't have been able to pull off the win due to their 3rd place CDs.

In any case
1992 , Klimova and Ponamarenko

[HD] Marina Klimova and Sergei Ponomarenko - 1992 Albertville Olympic - Free Dance

Marina Klimova and Sergei Ponomarenko / Марина Климова, Серге́й Пономаренко / マリナ・クリモワ, セルゲイ・ポノマレンコ[HD] 1992 Albertville Olympics - PlaylistsIce Dance - Free...

youtu.be

Duschenay and Duschenay

[HD] Isabelle Duchesnay and Paul Duchesnay - 1992 Albertville Olympic - Free Dance

Isabelle Duchesnay and Paul Duchesnay / Изабель Дюшене, Поль Дюшене / イザベル・デュシュネー, ポール・デュシュネー[HD] 1992 Albertville Olympics - PlaylistsLadies - Free Skating...

youtu.be

2002 , Anissina and Peizerat

2002 OG Anissina Peizerat FD

youtu.be

Lobacheva and Averbukh

Lobacheva & Averbukh (RUS) - 2002 Salt Lake City, Ice Dancing, Free Dance

Salt Lake City, Utah, USA - 2002 Winter Games, Ice Dancing, Free Dance - Irina Lobacheva and Ilia Averbukh of Russia placed 2nd in the Free Dance to win the ...

youtu.be

While it makes no sense in the FD, and while A&P's OD was a masterpiece, I did thoroughly enjoy L&A's OD and think it was a quality program. I got to see it live that year (in exhibition) and thought it was spectacular live. At least there was one solid program that L&A did - and it's not like Liberta was amazing for A&P in the FD or something.

I know I am talking about the OD and this was a question about the FD. Like you said Esca, this is baffling....and I am baffled how to justify this.

I would've had no problem with DenStavs ahead of L&A in the FD, or D&V (though I dont actually like that program). I would've had DenStavs 3rd in the OD, that program was wonderful. FPM and BK ate it and should've been lower than they were for sure.

Both D&D programs I thought were awful, while I thought both of K&P's were good (Air is one of my favorite skating programs of all time so I am way biased).

I wouldnt have had D&D on the podium I 1992. I still would've had L&A 2nd in 2002 at least...

 

[gk_891]

I thought both were equally mystifying. But with K&P, it's to my understanding that some of the judges didn't like their choice of music in the OD because they apparently felt that it didn't quite fit the polka genre. Hence the reason why some went down on the second set of marks.

And some felt that there were too many lifts in their free dance (couples could only perform 5 lifts in the free dance). So I guess I could sort of/kind of understand deductions, at least in the free dance (I still thought they were leagues better than D&D even with any illegalities). However, I thought their OD was just fine.

 

[VGThuy]

I voted for 1992 because I can find no way to justify that being as close as it was. It seemed like out of all the Soviet/Russian ice dance teams that won gold, the judges never properly recognized K/P’s talent and skill and only begrudgingly gave them wins after Bestemianova/Bukin’s reign of terror. I’m always baffled by the lack of enthusiasm for this team when I think they’re one of the greatest of all times. Just watch their Charleston OSP or Samba OSP or their Golden Waltz. D/D could never even attempt such programs. Actually neither could most teams outside of other teams I also think are the greatest of all time.

A/P nearly losing it to L/A is nearly just as ridiculous and I remember Alla Shekhovtsheva, the Russian judge’s smirk after the OD when I believe the Polish judge gave L/A a 6.0 for their OD and a first place marking when the rest of the panel had eyes and gave it A/P. It was like she realized she was now allowed to vote for L/A in the FD and have some support. It nearly worked too. The only reason I didn’t say it was equally baffling was because A/P’s program was so unintentionally laughable and they skated it so scared and carefully while I can see judges with bad taste thinking L/A had a good performance in SLC with all of Averbukhs Axel jumps and overwrought faces while dragging Lobacheva around and thus ignoring the technical content difference between the two. I just don’t know which was more baffling, 2002’s 5/4 split that thank goodness went A/P’s way or 2001 Worlds…the entire competition. That I will never get at all.

All that said, I can’t help but like Alla Shekhovtsheva only because in a post 2018 Worlds conference where the ice dance technical committee were explaining the new 5-range GOEs she used the Shibs as an example of a team with twizzles that should “for sure” get +5s. I can’t help it…Ice Dance fandom matrix and all of that.

 

[SmallFairy]

I didn't follow skating yet in 1992, OG was the first competition I ever watched, but 2002....the horror thought of L/A being Olympic Champions and A/P not...I wouldn't have recovered still! I saw A/P's FD live at Euros just before OG, and I actually didn't find it so cringeworthy. The voiceover was maybe a bit too much, but the music suited them and they managed to make the program powerful, yet nuanced. L/A was just bad in every way. I don't even remember if they skated at Euros or not. If they did, I must have erased them from my memory. It wasn't just that program. I could never warm up to them, not before or after. "Dragging Lobacheva around" is just the best description. Lots of hair, lots of fabrics (they were either in neon colours or in rags), lots of gimmick. It wasn't like I developed any love for them in 2003 either, when everyone at Euros 2003 (including me in the audience) could clearly see D/S's baroque OD being superior to all, also L/A, but judges had to give it to L/A, since RUS vs. BUL...duh? No brainer. So much politics. Audience not happy.

 

[VGThuy]

I wonder what would have happened to L/A’s trajectory had K/O been able to compete at a high level from 1999-2002. Would L/A still be able to politick their way to gold medal contenders or would they have to be content with being bronze medalist contenders with maybe some hope of silver if A/P we’re getting the dumpage treatment? I have a strong feeling it would be the latter especially with all of them coming from the same training center. Does that mean they would have continued on to 2006? What would have happened to Navka and Roman if that happened?

 

[tony]

I wonder what would have happened to L/A’s trajectory had K/O been able to compete at a high level from 1999-2002. Would L/A still be able to politick their way to gold medal contenders or would they have to be content with being bronze medalist contenders with maybe some hope of silver if A/P we’re getting the dumpage treatment? I have a strong feeling it would be the latter especially with all of them coming from the same training center. Does that mean they would have continued on to 2006? What would have happened to Navka and Roman if that happened?

In all honesty, L/A having the mess season they did in 2000 with four FDs, falling behind teams they had easily been above before (and other teams like B/K not even in the picture by Worlds), and K/O staying and remaining healthy (that's a big ask), I think it would've been the beginning of the end for them and Russia would've started to look elsewhere for a #2 team. But that in itself is another challenge because Kostomarov was with Anna Semenovich in 2000, and Romaniuta/Barantsev (a team I really enjoyed) were winning on the junior level but then really fizzled out quickly as soon as they hit seniors. Maybe they would've stayed together and gotten a big push. L/A were competent skaters but I liked the majority of their stuff pre-dye her hair to match her costume/when they started contending for medals.

 

[Deleted member 221]

The 2002 free dances were generally garbage, and Lobacheva and Averbukh had a bit of an advantage in that their free dance was the least seen that season (and thus seemed like the least garbage).

I really hated everything about that season - the political pandering to the U.S. audience, the weird introductions that the ISU allowed ("we love to street dance" from Bourne and Kraatz ), the ponderous choreography, the gynecological lifts.

If you ignored the fact that it was supposed to reflect gunfire and helicopters (or something like that), L&A's cembalo music was interesting, though I could have done without the "Time for Peace" section in the middle and the ashes of the World Trade Center in her hair. Yeah, enough said about that season!

If L&A had pulled off the win, it would have been the ultimate political victory. Make a deal - trade Russia gold in pairs for French gold in dance. Then the French get caught. Russia keeps its gold in pairs. And then to "prove" that there was no deal, Russia wins surprise gold in dance. The politics would've been legendary.

 

[caseyedwards]

I just believe that is the battle between Margaglio and Lobacheva it was ultimately Lobacheva who proved to more acceptable! I mean if it wasn’t l/a losing 5/4 it was probably FP/M losing 5/4! I guess something didn’t quite click with a lot of judges for A/P. Plus FP was just that incredibly incredibly talented!! Same with averbukh too probably! So you have major huge talents of epic proportions with partners below them but who could generally not get in their way too much. In terms of politics I always guess l/a was an emergency number one but not without justification. Who was a better man than averbukh in Russia and he was certainly eligible for best of his era title

 

[VGThuy]

I know, 2002 was almost the Olympics of practically perfect politicking from the Russian Fed. They had more golds in 2006 and almost swept had Irina stayed on her feet and did more jumps than Shizuka, but something tells me they didn’t need to politick as much in 2006.

 

[Deleted member 221]

I know, 2002 was almost the Olympics of practically perfect politicking from the Russian Fed. They had more golds in 2006 and almost swept had Irina stayed on her feet and did more jumps than Shizuka, but something tells me they didn’t need to politick as much in 2006.

One of my fellow conspiracy theorists, who felt the judging panel was rigged for Slutskaya, thought that the Slovakian judge deliberately put Kwan first in the short program to throw off the scent of any bias / conspiracy claims for the free skate. If so, her move actually cost Slutskaya the gold. A win in the short (of which she was one judge away) would've been enough.

 

[VGThuy]

One of my fellow conspiracy theorists, who felt the judging panel was rigged for Slutskaya, thought that the Slovakian judge deliberately put Kwan first in the short program to throw off the scent of any bias / conspiracy claims for the free skate. If so, her move actually cost Slutskaya the gold. A win in the short (of which she was one judge away) would've been enough.

We were robbed of seeing what would have happened with the judges had Kwan and Slutskaya skated well in SLC but with comparable in terms of jump content. It could’ve ended up like Worlds a month later or it could have went in a totally different direction.

 

[briancoogaert]

Good choices as both are mystifying !
In 1992, I was really happy K&P won because they are such an amazing team. And as I lived in France, I was really happy that D&D won the Silver medal, even more that close to the Gold (national bias for sure !! Hahahaaa)
But in 2002, I can't understand how it was possible to put L&A so close to A&P ! I tried to be objective, I swear !

 

[gk_891]

I voted for 1992 because I can find no way to justify that being as close as it was. It seemed like out of all the Soviet/Russian ice dance teams that won gold, the judges never properly recognized K/P’s talent and skill and only begrudgingly gave them wins after Bestemianova/Bukin’s reign of terror. I’m always baffled by the lack of enthusiasm for this team when I think they’re one of the greatest of all times. Just watch their Charleston OSP or Samba OSP or their Golden Waltz. D/D could never even attempt such programs. Actually neither could most teams outside of other teams I also think are the greatest of all time.

A/P nearly losing it to L/A is nearly just as ridiculous and I remember Alla Shekhovtsheva, the Russian judge’s smirk after the OD when I believe the Polish judge gave L/A a 6.0 for their OD and a first place marking when the rest of the panel had eyes and gave it A/P. It was like she realized she was now allowed to vote for L/A in the FD and have some support. It nearly worked too. The only reason I didn’t say it was equally baffling was because A/P’s program was so unintentionally laughable and they skated it so scared and carefully while I can see judges with bad taste thinking L/A had a good performance in SLC with all of Averbukhs Axel jumps and overwrought faces while dragging Lobacheva around and thus ignoring the technical content difference between the two. I just don’t know which was more baffling, 2002’s 5/4 split that thank goodness went A/P’s way or 2001 Worlds…the entire competition. That I will never get at all.

All that said, I can’t help but like Alla Shekhovtsheva only because in a post 2018 Worlds conference where the ice dance technical committee were explaining the new 5-range GOEs she used the Shibs as an example of a team with twizzles that should “for sure” get +5s. I can’t help it…Ice Dance fandom matrix and all of that.

I had a feeling something was up when Lobacheva & Averbukh placed second in the compulsories. That really shocked me at the time because their compulsories are thoroughly mediocre. If you look at the video below and pause at 1:15, you can see that L&A's edges are almost non-existent. Especially next to B&K.

[HD] Top 4 "Quickstep" - 2002 Worlds - 2nd compulsory dance

2002 World Figure Skating Championships, Ice dancing - 2nd compulsory dance "Quickstep" , Nagano, Japan, March 16 - 24 20022002年世界フィギュアスケート選手権 アイスダンス コンパルソリー...

www.youtube.com

But in general, it always seemed like A&P were on the wrong end of politics and were harshly judged throughout their careers. I know I've said it in other threads but I honestly felt that they should've been second only to Grishuk & Platov at the 1996 Worlds, 1997 Worlds, and 1998 Olympics. And I feel that they should've been world champions in 1998, 1999, and 2001.

 

[gk_891]

Good choices as both are mystifying !
In 1992, I was really happy K&P won because they are such an amazing team. And as I lived in France, I was really happy that D&D won the Silver medal, even more that close to the Gold (national bias for sure !! Hahahaaa)
But in 2002, I can't understand how it was possible to put L&A so close to A&P ! I tried to be objective, I swear !

I was also very happy and super-relieved when K&P won the gold in Albertville. I remember biting my nails throughout the entire competition when I watched it live. But I do recall K&P looking very dismayed in the kiss and cry area when the first set of marks came out. But then they looked unbelievably relieved when the second set of marks came out and they knew that they were going to win the gold no matter what.

 

[Vash01]

I think the 1992 FD resultbmade no sense. K/P were so superior to D/D in technical skills, choreography and even the emotion in those FDs. The result shoukd have been 8-1 or 7-2. The 5-4 made no sense even for a home field advantage team (and I am writing this with all the sympathy fir D/D for the loss of their brother). I didn't buy the excuse that K/P had too many lifts in their program. In 1994 the judges bent all rules in favor of G/P. Too much time skating apart, etc.

iMO the 2002 made at least some sense.
1. A/P's FD was probably their worst program ever, though they skated it well.
2. L/A had strong showing in both CD and OD. There were no visible errors in the FD.
3. With K&O out of the pictur, the RSF had to put all their political power behind L/A.
4. The challengers FB-M and B/K both had falls, thus taking them out of contention.

With all these factors, A/P and L/A scores came much closer than they would have. I would have still preferred something like 6-3 rather than 5-4.