“I am a woman and I am fast”: what Caster Semenya’s story says about gender and race in sports

[FiveRinger]

Sept. 8, 2020:

Caster Semenya loses appeal against the restriction of testosterone levels in female runners

Caster Semenya loses her appeal to Switzerland's Federal Supreme Court against the restriction of testosterone levels in female runners.

www.bbc.com

Caster Semenya Loses Her Appeal, But Nobody Wins

The continuing case of South African runner Caster Semenya and her fight against the IAAF’s restrictions on her, and others’, bodies reached its likely conclusion Tuesday.

deadspin.com

This is a bunch of bullsh*t considering all of the actual doping that goes on. Go do something about actual dopers and then get back to us. She's a woman. If you can't compete raise your game or get out of her f***** way!

 

[MsZem]

This is a bunch of bullsh*t considering all of the actual doping that goes on. Go do something about actual dopers and then get back to us. She's a woman. If you can't compete raise your game or get out of her f***** way!

These are two separate issues. Anti-doping is not a relevant comparison, as Semenya has done nothing wrong. But it is reasonable to have certain criteria to determine who gets to compete in women's sports, otherwise it's not a fair competition.

 

[FiveRinger]

These are two separate issues. Anti-doping is not a relevant comparison, as Semenya has done nothing wrong. But it is reasonable to have certain criteria to determine who gets to compete in women's sports, otherwise it's not a fair competition.

I'm making the comparison because they are treating her like a pariah, like she did something wrong. Athletes that commit infractions get better treatment.

 

[Sylvia]

TIME article by Sean Gregory (April 28, 2021) with a 4-minute video embedded:

Caster Semenya On Why She's Fighting To Win Gold In Tokyo

The South African runner on life under a microscope, fellow women athletes and her court fight to defend her 800-m title

time.com

Excerpts:

Semenya took her case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which in 2019 upheld the World Athletics regulation: the Swiss supreme court, last year, dismissed her appeal. So Semenya is making one last push before the Olympics, to the European Court of Human Rights. Meanwhile, she is still trying to qualify for Tokyo, in the 5,000-m.
Semenya, who recently partnered with beauty brand Lux for a public campaign to overturn the ruling, joined TIME for a rare one-on-one interview from her home in Pretoria, South Africa to discuss her case, her legacy, and her plan for Tokyo. “I’m just going to say to my people,” Semenya tells TIME, “I’m back.”

Why is it so important to you? You could walk away having accomplished so much in your sport.
Because I feel like I’ve been banned from my greatness. When you’re an athlete, you have a target. My target was maybe to win certain medals. And then someone decided to stop me because that person sees I’ll be the greatest. I feel like I’m not yet done. I still feel fresh. I still feel young. I cannot walk away if I feel like I can still do this thing.

When we spoke less than two years ago after a race at Stanford, you ruled out politics for your future. What changed?
You grow. My issue is political. It’s about rights. It’s about helping people. I’m fighting for other young girls. Young girls from Asia, young girls from Africa, there are a lot of them with DSD. And they are being affected. Instead of supporting those girls and saying they are phenomenal like males, you’re going to say no, they are not human enough. What do you mean? I’m starting to be fascinated by politics because I’ve seen that it’s actually a political move. It’s far off of fairness in sports. Sports is never fair. If you look at basketball, if you look at swimming, then you come to me and you’re going to say, because I’m a different woman, I am not allowed? Bulls–t.

 

[MacMadame]

I wonder what her chances are to win her case.

 

[Sylvia]

Semenya bids for 5000m slot at Tokyo Olympics

Caster Semenya, denied an opportunity to win a third successive Olympic 800 metres gold, will on Friday attempt to qualify for the Tokyo Games over 5000m.

www.reuters.com

The 30-year-old South African is banned from competing in any race from 400m to a mile after World Athletics ruled in 2018 that in order to ensure fair competition women with high natural testosterone levels must take drugs to reduce them to compete in middle-distance races.
Semenya, who refuses to take medication to alter her testosterone levels, has challenged the ruling but seen several appeals dismissed. The 5000m is therefore her best chance to go to the Tokyo Games.
Semenya set a time of 15:52.28 in winning the South African title over 5000m in Pretoria last month but it was 42 seconds slower than the 15:10.00 needed in order to qualify for the Olympics.

 

[AxelAnnie]

It can be justified because testosterone is used to differentiate between men and women's competitive categories. And while anyone can compete in the men's category, there needs to be some boundaries set for the women's category in order to ensure that women can compete fairly. There are no categories based the physical attributes that many athletes have, but there are sports that have weight categories, and athletes have to meet certain weights or move to a different category. Of course it is much easier to change one's weight than one's testosterone level.

Note that I am not commenting on whether this or any other testosterone criterion is justified; it's hardly my area of expertise. And obviously, Caster Semenya has done nothing wrong and is fully deserves the right to appeal the original CAS decision.

I don't agree with your premise. Facts please. And facts that women's and men's skating has in any way been differentiated by testosterone levels.

 

[MsZem]

I don't agree with your premise. Facts please. And facts that women's and men's skating has in any way been differentiated by testosterone levels.

You don't agree with my "premise" that testosterone levels are used as a criterion to determine who can compete in women's sports? Or you don't accept that I lack relevant expertise to comment on whether it should be used as a criterion?

The first is at the heart of Caster Semenya's case. The second remains true two years after I wrote the post you quoted.

 

[FiveRinger]

This whole thread pisses me off. I don't know why I keep coming in here. Semenya deserves so much better.

 

[MacMadame]

So the IOC is dropping the testosterone requirement for intersexed and transgender athletes. This seems to me to validate the idea that those requirements were just to prevent Symenya from winning more Olympic medals.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2021/11/16/ioc-transgender-athlete-policy-changes/

 

[skatingguy]

So the IOC is dropping the testosterone requirement for intersexed and transgender athletes. This seems to me to validate the idea that those requirements were just to prevent Symenya from winning more Olympic medals.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2021/11/16/ioc-transgender-athlete-policy-changes/

Weren't the policy decisions that affected Semenya made by World Athletics?

 

[MsZem]

So the IOC is dropping the testosterone requirement for intersexed and transgender athletes. This seems to me to validate the idea that those requirements were just to prevent Symenya from winning more Olympic medals.

Or maybe they recognized that this was not the best approach. It's not just Semenya who's been affected, after all.

 

[MacMadame]

Or maybe they recognized that this was not the best approach. It's not just Semenya who's been affected, after all.

That's possible but they could have put this policy in place for the Japan Olympics.

 

[Seerek]

Would that mean an athlete like (Olympic silver medalist) Christine Mboma is now eligible for the 400m next season?

 

[skatingguy]

Would that mean an athlete like (Olympic silver medalist) Christine Mboma is now eligible for the 400m next season?

No.

 

[Deleted member 80234]

If there is going to a limit for testosterone levels in women, there should also be one for men. Seems to me that if there isn't, this is clearly a case of discrimination.

I don’t think having unusually high levels of natural testosterone provides a health advantage. In fact, guys who are born with multiple Y chromosomes don’t usually live long lives, due to the detrimental effects of high testosterone on the heart. And men who are shorter generally have lower exposure to human growth hormone, a hormone that presents a cancer risk in excess.
But that said, I think it does offer an advantage in most tests of strength to be male rather than female. It would be a lot less controversial if the medals didn’t matter so much.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12586217/

 

[caseyedwards]

This is not inclusion. I support inclusion. If you were successful in the men’s division you need to stay in the men’s division.

 

[skatingguy]

This is not inclusion. I support inclusion. If you were successful in the men’s division you need to stay in the men’s division.

So if you're unsuccessful in the men's division you should switch?

 

[caseyedwards]

So if you're unsuccessful in the men's division you should switch?

No only people who never qualified should be allowed

 

[skatingguy]

No only people who never qualified should be allowed

Never qualified for what? The Olympics. That still leaves a lot of athletes that can switch.

 

[caseyedwards]

Never qualified for what? The Olympics. That still leaves a lot of athletes that can switch.

For any men’s team. For any event. You are seeing a hugely successful (but non winner) swimmer in men’s division now winning everything in women’s. Why should someone who was a success but non winner In men’s just move to women’s? Men can take all the testosterone blockers or estrogen or whatever and it doesn’t erase the muscle development of male puberty. A biological man can never become a biological women with drugs

 

[barbk]

Big issues now with a University of Pennsylvania (UPenn) swimmer who competed for UPenn three years as a male swimmer and is now swimming on the women's team and achieving records. At least two of his teammates are quite unhappy & they say many others are, too. The story includes this note about a recent study:

“One year doesn’t mean anything. What about the years of puberty as a male, the male growth you went through as a man?” the teammate asked.

In a study published in the December 2020 edition of the British Journal of Sports Medicine, researchers found that the one-year waiting period used by the NCAA and other athletic organizations is inadequate.

“For the Olympic level, the elite level, I’d say probably two years is more realistic than one year,” lead author Dr. Timothy Roberts, from Children’s Mercy Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri, told NBC News. “At one year, the trans women on average still have an advantage over the cis women.”

Roberts gathered the data while studying the athletic performance of men and women in the Air Force who were required to go through physical readiness tests. Researchers reviewed test results and medical records of 29 trans men and 46 trans women.

“We compared pre-and post-hormone fitness test results of the trans women and trans men with the average performance of all women and men under the age of 30 in the Air Force between 2004 and 2014. We also measured the rate of hormone-associated changes in body composition and athletic performance,” the authors stated.

The average age of participants was 26.2 years old.

“Prior to gender affirming hormones, trans women performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in 1 min and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster than their female counterparts. After 2 years of taking feminizing hormones, the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared but trans women were still 12% faster,” the study states.

OutKick Exclusive: Penn Trans Swimmer's Teammate Speaks Out As Lia Thomas Smashes More Records

While University of Pennsylvania transgender swimmer Lia Thomas, who spent three years at the Ivy League school swimming as a male, has been busy smashing

www.outkick.com

Maybe a 2-year hormone adjustment period makes more sense?

 

[el henry]

"Big Made up by the right wing press issues now with a University of Pennsylvania (UPenn) swimmer who competed for UPenn three years as a male swimmer and is now swimming on the women's team and achieving records. At least two of his her teammates are quite unhappy & they say many others are, too. "

Fixed that for you.

Only a far right poseur like Clay Travis (founder of "Outkick") and the usual suspects like the Daily Fail and the New York Post appear to have problems with Lia Thomas. Along with the reliable anonymous teammates

Lia did, in fact, begin her transition two years ago and completed her one year of testosterone suppression in the summer of 2020:

Record-Breaking Trans Swimmer Lia Thomas Shrugs Off Critics, Talks About Swimming as Her ‘Authentic Self’

The UPenn swimmer says that she expected some “pushback,” but it’s the least of her concerns.

www.thedailybeast.com

But do go on Piers Morgan and Megyn Kelly

(BTW, Penn grads almost never say UPenn, unless we're trying to distinguish ourselves from Penn State. Or at least us old timers never did.)

 

[barbk]

"Big Made up by the right wing press issues now with a University of Pennsylvania (UPenn) swimmer who competed for UPenn three years as a male swimmer and is now swimming on the women's team and achieving records. At least two of his her teammates are quite unhappy & they say many others are, too. "

Fixed that for you.

Only a far right poseur like Clay Travis (founder of "Outkick") and the usual suspects like the Daily Fail and the New York Post appear to have problems with Lia Thomas. Along with the reliable anonymous teammates

Lia did, in fact, begin her transition two years ago and completed her one year of testosterone suppression in the summer of 2020:

Record-Breaking Trans Swimmer Lia Thomas Shrugs Off Critics, Talks About Swimming as Her ‘Authentic Self’

The UPenn swimmer says that she expected some “pushback,” but it’s the least of her concerns.

www.thedailybeast.com

But do go on Piers Morgan and Megyn Kelly

(BTW, Penn grads almost never say UPenn, unless we're trying to distinguish ourselves from Penn State. Or at least us old timers never did.)

Absolutely right on the "her" vs. "him" -- my mistake; thanks for correcting it.

However, there has been a multitude of reports on this particular situation in a wide range of publications. It isn't a trash press issue. SwimSwam has a big article with many comments on it. (May be paywalled.) Much discussion about the advantages of many years of post-puberty testosterone on muscle & skeletal development and lung capacity.

It is a reasonable question about how long a trans-athlete should have to take hormone adjustments before competing. This British Journal of Sports Medicine suggests it should be longer than the current requirement. Is that no longer suitable for discussion?

 

[barbk]

(BTW, Penn grads almost never say UPenn, unless we're trying to distinguish ourselves from Penn State. Or at least us old timers never did.)

From the first lines on the first page of their admission website: Penn (also known as UPenn) is committed to making its inclusive, innovative, and impactful Ivy League education available to the best and brightest students, regardless of their economic circumstances.

Times change. UCLA was once just known as the "Southern Branch of the University of California." I'm not sure how they ever fit that on jerseys.

 

[el henry]

From the first lines on the first page of their admission website: Penn (also known as UPenn) is committed to making its inclusive, innovative, and impactful Ivy League education available to the best and brightest students, regardless of their economic circumstances.

Times change. UCLA was once just known as the "Southern Branch of the University of California." I'm not sure how they ever fit that on jerseys.

You are certainly right about times changing, and that's why I qualified about old timers; I knew those young folks probably even changed the name.

Absolutely right on the "her" vs. "him" -- my mistake; thanks for correcting it.

However, there has been a multitude of reports on this particular situation in a wide range of publications. It isn't a trash press issue. SwimSwam has a big article with many comments on it. (May be paywalled.) Much discussion about the advantages of many years of post-puberty testosterone on muscle & skeletal development and lung capacity.

It is a reasonable question about how long a trans-athlete should have to take hormone adjustments before competing. This British Journal of Sports Medicine suggests it should be longer than the current requirement. Is that no longer suitable for discussion?

No, I think the amount of time prior to engagement in athletics for their correct gender is certainly subject to academic discussion. I did have a visceral reaction to Clay Travis, so that influenced my reaction. I don't know what the answer is, just that it should be couched in respect for those transitioning, and my five minutes of Googling turned up much posturing and posing and not a lot of respect.

 

[MacMadame]

“For the Olympic level, the elite level, I’d say probably two years is more realistic than one year,” lead author Dr. Timothy Roberts, from Children’s Mercy Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri, told NBC News. “At one year, the trans women on average still have an advantage over the cis women.”

So that trans woman will stop setting records any day now since she's going on her second year.

Much discussion about the advantages of many years of post-puberty testosterone on muscle & skeletal development and lung capacity.

This always comes up, but if you look at the science, it doesn't really hold. In the study you quoted, all those supposed advantages except whatever causes speed went away over time with hormone therapy. And, I'm pretty sure the speed will go away too when enough time passes.

My own experience as an athlete is that physical advantages come and go. And that individuals have their own performance regardless of the averages. I have certainly beaten men in competition and I have beaten people younger than me. And I've gotten slower and gotten faster depending on my age and also how much I was training. This doesn't mean that on average men don't perform better and on average younger people don't perform better. But none of us are averages. We're individuals. With our individual performance.

This idea that all trans women will always beat all cis women just doesn't hold up. The idea that being a boy for years means you will always have better strength and more muscles doesn't hold up either.

 

[caseyedwards]

So that trans woman will stop setting records any day now since she's going on her second year.


This always comes up, but if you look at the science, it doesn't really hold. In the study you quoted, all those supposed advantages except whatever causes speed went away over time with hormone therapy. And, I'm pretty sure the speed will go away too when enough time passes.

My own experience as an athlete is that physical advantages come and go. And that individuals have their own performance regardless of the averages. I have certainly beaten men in competition and I have beaten people younger than me. And I've gotten slower and gotten faster depending on my age and also how much I was training. This doesn't mean that on average men don't perform better and on average younger people don't perform better. But none of us are averages. We're individuals. With our individual performance.

This idea that all trans women will always beat all cis women just doesn't hold up. The idea that being a boy for years means you will always have better strength and more muscles doesn't hold up either.

The trans weight lifter in the Olympics only lost because they chose weights so high and failed at all their attempts. They wanted to win gold easy but their strategy failed. If they had chosen weights the average biological woman chose they might have won. So you are right that trans women aren’t always beating biological women but they are in most cases in speed events like running and swimming. Sports where all competitors start out in the same place.

 

[allezfred]

The trans weight lifter in the Olympics only lost because they chose weights so high and failed at all their attempts. They wanted to win gold easy but their strategy failed. If they had chosen weights the average biological woman chose they might have won. So you are right that trans women aren’t always beating biological women but they are in most cases in speed events like running and swimming. Sports where all competitors start out in the same place.

Even if any of what you post is true, let's remember this is a thread about Caster Semenya who is a woman from birth.

 

[caseyedwards]

Even if any of what you post is true, let's remember this is a thread about Caster Semenya who is a woman from birth.

She was raised and identifies as a female but if it was as simple as you say there would never have any controversy