The Dance Hall 12: Boston Tea Dance Party

[Belsornia]

But, man alive, I hope FearGib have better programs next season. I will be ALL THERE and ALL IN if they do go the obvious route with a Spice Girls RD. They're, honestly, the only team that I want to see even go that route because I know they'd do it justice.

White Town's Your Woman has been my wish for a Fear/Gibson FD for a while, but since we're now stuck with the 90s theme (ugh) I'd take it for an RD instead.

It was painful to watch dumpage of both French teams. DH, who never remembers teams from one viewing to the next, liked them both and found them more interesting than many. When I explained Cizeron and lack of French Fed support, he stared at me, I think he is only used to politics re: the Middle East.

Lopareva/Brissaud are probably my favourite of the top ten teams to watch (got to take my British ice dance cheerleader hat off for a minute) but unfortunately they largely dumped themselves this week with the big error in the RD and several bobbles in the FD. Demougeot/Le Mercier OTOH... It's really rough for them, and I'm worried about what comes next for Dupayage/Nabais and Lagouge/Caffa too.

I was watching with family so haven't been in the PBP thread, but we enjoyed all the movement and having a close competition across all levels of the dance event for once. Not so much that the pressure got to so many teams.

Well, this was quiet the event. I got what I wanted and Czechia has secured 2 spots. There is some interesting movement regarding the 2023 junior dance grad class. Bekker/Hernandez are much more consistent than in their debut season. Lim/Quan have lost a little bit of momentum it seems. They lost against the Baby Brits and were nearly 10 points behind Mrazkovi. Mrazkovi seem to have reinforced their standing as one of the up-coming teams for the next quad to keep an eye on.

I'm really glad that Bekker/Hernandez seem to be getting through the adjustment to seniors bump - this time last season they were in a similar place to Bashynka/Beaumont ( ). I think it's right that both teams are in a similar place now - Lim/Quan had a storming senior debut but weaker programmes this season (though they delivered well at 4CCs and Worlds), B/H have better programmes this year and have had a run of solid performances. And both have a female partner with megawattage performance qualities but both still have some work to do in showing a connection between the partners on the ice.

The Mrazeks skating skills are SO good - and they have that 100mph, on the edge of disaster quality that I love - but their senior programmes haven't been great. If the Zanni and Margaglio teams have a joint summer camp again this year, I would love for them to get a programme from Maurizio. He seems to do a great job in helping his teams to find their on ice identity.

I actually like Bekker/Hernandez better than Fear/Gibson. They have enormous upside but I doubt they'll ever reach it with their current coaches. They would be a good IAMO team

I'm definitely curious (and a bit nervous) about what B/H will do for coaching if they get funding after Milano.

 

[chameleonster]

I don't really think F/G will dominate next quad unless something really changes with them, not even because of their SS or their lack of versatility(although both are factors), but possibly more crucially they simply do not have that dog in them. They've been more consistent than most other top teams in that they've managed to avoid comedy pratfalling this season, but despite winning both GPs and medalling at GPF and Worlds they don't seem to have gained more confidence or a killer instinct. The judges put Lopareva/Brissaud ahead of them at Euros and they've been getting pretty stagnant scores despite their on paper success, and they skate worse under pressure instead of like they're about to rip the medals away from their competitors. They didn't even skate that well at Worlds and had visible errors in the FD, it really came across like the judges only gave them bronze because they hated the Robots FD too much to allow it to stand on the World podium. The judges seem to be getting tired of their style, their skating skills are genuinely improving but not quickly enough, and they don't have the gritty competitive mentality either. Unless they find a really standout FD that suits them and shows growth to change their fortunes, I don't know how much higher they can really climb.

 

[morqet]

@Belsornia Agreed with you on Lopareva/Brissaud - they were a mess in the FD, even I could spot them losing levels on the one foot sequence and spin in real time.

Don't think you can really tell anything about who's trending up and down based on this event, because there were so many little mistakes from most teams apart from the top two. All I've really got is that S/D & C/P are topping out at 123 in the FD when skating really well, so still a bit below the top top teams.

F/G and G/F both left about 4 points on the table in the FD from elements they would normally expect to be hitting a level 4 on, which doesn't do much to think about how the judges are separating them! Program choice is going to be everything next year for them. (Although, maybe interesting that F/G have hardly had any "clean" competitions this year without having one or two silly errors, but still have come out with their most successful season by far).

 

[Ikari]

I hope that G/F take this disappointment and use it to their advantage. I feel for them, they must be devastated to drop like this the year before home Olympics but they can't let this impact them negatively. From interviews this week it felt like Charlene in particular was already defeated before they skated. I get it, its a political sport and they have a combination of not as strong fed/weakest political coaches/not as much finance to spend on the best costumes and choreo, it sucks that that's the way it is, but it is that way. The robots were never a good idea - they should have scrapped them after Lombardia, but alas.

It's time for them to admit that the robots were a misfire. Our commentator said something to effect that there's a risk when you adapt a gala program, that a concept designed to amuse the masses will come across simplistic and juvenile in competition format. It felt like pair of rally drivers competing in a delivery van.

About F/G, I agree that their medal here felt bit like a career award. It's weird, they did great during competition season, then the Euros rolled around and after the Finns, the Spaniards, the French...their FD, designed to be surefire crowd pleaser, felt like a yawner. And many people said they should have been 4th at most. Next year, '90s theme probably suits them well for RD, but it is obvious they need a fresh approach for FD.

My sis dropped by when I was watching RD: she seldom watches skating (I had to explain her the difference between pairs and ice dance). She was first like "isn't this bit boring, how do you tell apart the differences" but she got invested enough that she said she would check out the FD too. Next day, after Smart/Dieck had performed, she texted me "Now that was insane, absolutely amazing!!" And she doesn't even know anything about Dune, has not seen the movie, much less read the book. You don't always need experts to spell it out to you when something is good.

 

[marbri]

I have never seen Dune and don't care to see it and I agree, that FD was a visual feast. Everything about it just worked so beautifully as a whole.

Program choice can never be underestimated. You have to love what you skate to but you also need that audience interaction if you really want to succeed and you get that with visually stunning programs like Dune or stories the audience doesn't need a readout to understand.

 

[coralline]

Do we know the Sr Pattern for PST yet?

2025-26 Rhythm Dance Update -

https://twitter.com/x/status/1905756134797168661

 

[Karen-W]

Do we know the Sr Pattern for PST yet?

Per the thread from A Divine Sport, it doesn't sound like there is a specified pattern dance - they're supposed to create their own with some required steps/holds.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1905756148260803069

 

[PRlady]

I have never seen Dune and don't care to see it and I agree, that FD was a visual feast. Everything about it just worked so beautifully as a whole.

Program choice can never be underestimated. You have to love what you skate to but you also need that audience interaction if you really want to succeed and you get that with visually stunning programs like Dune or stories the audience doesn't need a readout to understand.

Seeing the Fun Finns in person, their skating skills are clearly not top-team. But the standing O for Chorus Line is exactly what they prepared for, if you can’t medal, please the crowd. Why is this so hard for other teams to figure out?

 

[deegee]

Seeing the Fun Finns in person, their skating skills are clearly not top-team. But the standing O for Chorus Line is exactly what they prepared for, if you can’t medal, please the crowd. Why is this so hard for other teams to figure out?

because they prefer the medal

 

[PRlady]

because they prefer the medal

Which is not mutually exclusive with entertainment. I happened to love Gre/Pars FD despite the music source but it was a very internalized, quiet choice. There’s room for that but not as a steady diet. Unless you’re PapCiz.

 

[~tapdancer~]

I have never seen Dune and don't care to see it and I agree, that FD was a visual feast. Everything about it just worked so beautifully as a whole.

Program choice can never be underestimated. You have to love what you skate to but you also need that audience interaction if you really want to succeed and you get that with visually stunning programs like Dune or stories the audience doesn't need a readout to understand.

I agree that was magical. I was utterly impressed with that FD. And I really agree with your statement about program choice. I personally love warhorses and movie soundtracks. I am not a purist. And much of the audiences at events are as I am, I want to be moved and excited by what I see and hear. Other than obvious mistakes, I will never fully understand the technical nitpicks and as a spectator, I don't need all that. I will say that the times I have attended live events, seeing skating live is a whole different experience than TV watching. You can see speed and flow and ice coverage so much better. I wish everyone could experience it.

 

[Karen-W]

Seeing the Fun Finns in person, their skating skills are clearly not top-team. But the standing O for Chorus Line is exactly what they prepared for, if you can’t medal, please the crowd. Why is this so hard for other teams to figure out?

because they prefer the medal

I'm of the opinion that if they're good enough to medal then they should be good enough to also please the crowd. There's nothing stopping any of the top teams from embracing the pure entertainment value of that choreo character seq that the Fun Finns deliver.

I said this in the pbp thread yesterday - the teams that were getting the audience engaged were the ones that told a compelling story or had a really specific vision that they executed extremely well - TurkVers, 007, Cruella, A Chorus Line, Dune, GreenP, Carmen. Even sitting at home, by the time we got to A Chorus Line at the end of that 2nd group with three fairly generic, interchangeable contemporary modern dance programs & whatever the hell that was from DavSmo, they were primed & ready to give all their pent-up love to the Fun Finns - and they got it because they were entertaining & engaging with the audience.

Which is not mutually exclusive with entertainment. I happened to love Gre/Pars FD despite the music source but it was a very internalized, quiet choice. There’s room for that but not as a steady diet. Unless you’re PapCiz.

Yes, agreed. There are only so many of those type of programs that an audience can handle in one competition, especially one with 20 teams like Euros or Worlds.

Too many skaters these days are too busy being so earnest & introspective, instead of picking music that is going to get the audience going. In the vast catalogue of music around from around the world - with so many different styles & rhythms - we should not be subjected to a 20-team field where we get modern interpretative dance 101 from eight teams.

 

[deegee]

Which is not mutually exclusive with entertainment. I happened to love Gre/Pars FD despite the music source but it was a very internalized, quiet choice. There’s room for that but not as a steady diet. Unless you’re PapCiz.

oh totally agree that they're not mutually exclusive. i'm just answering the "why can't they figure it out" question. like, they can't figure it out bc they prefer getting medals to whether or not they are entertaining and don't realize they can do both/how to do both.

 

[Dobre]

Can we let @Dobre weigh in before we make it official? I know he or she (sorry, I don't know which it is!) was sad not to have a chance last year.

Thank you, @Wyliefan. I do think it would be nice to give folks at least a day or two to throw out ideas. (Also sometimes we get more info/inspiration about the upcoming season right after Worlds, no? Or maybe that's all already in the thread, as I am not caught up).

Right now my brain is functioning on much too little sleep + is *&@#%! about the arbitrariness of the current scoring system so I don't know if I'll be helpful; but maybe my creative brain will have time to get refreshed tomorrow evening PST. If no one has any other ideas, we have one in the bank, which is good.

 

[Dobre]

Putting this in a separate post so it won't interfere with the thread-title discussion.

Rant: One of the things I loved so much about the 2015-2018 quadrennium was that despite heartbreak--and there was plenty of heartbreak--the majority of the time teams came out of events knowing a. what they had done to muck up, b. what they needed to do to improve, and c. that doing so was possible. That sense is gone, and it makes me so angry on behalf of the athletes who've worked so hard to develop their craft.

I mean, yeah, we all know you can't fall in your footwork sequence; but I mean otherwise . . .

 

[skategal]

I'm of the opinion that if they're good enough to medal then they should be good enough to also please the crowd. There's nothing stopping any of the top teams from embracing the pure entertainment value of that choreo character seq that the Fun Finns deliver.

I said this in the pbp thread yesterday - the teams that were getting the audience engaged were the ones that told a compelling story or had a really specific vision that they executed extremely well - TurkVers, 007, Cruella, A Chorus Line, Dune, GreenP, Carmen. Even sitting at home, by the time we got to A Chorus Line at the end of that 2nd group with three fairly generic, interchangeable contemporary modern dance programs & whatever the hell that was from DavSmo, they were primed & ready to give all their pent-up love to the Fun Finns - and they got it because they were entertaining & engaging with the audience.

Yes, agreed. There are only so many of those type of programs that an audience can handle in one competition, especially one with 20 teams like Euros or Worlds.

Too many skaters these days are too busy being so earnest & introspective, instead of picking music that is going to get the audience going. In the vast catalogue of music around from around the world - with so many different styles & rhythms - we should not be subjected to a 20-team field where we get interpretative dance 101 from eight out of 20 teams.

This is one of the reasons I think V/M won gold in 2018 over P/C. Their programs were more accessible to the general FS/Olympic audience.

 

[shan]

Putting this in a separate post so it won't interfere with the thread-title discussion.

Rant: One of the things I loved so much about the 2015-2018 quadrennium was that despite heartbreak--and there was plenty of heartbreak--the majority of the time teams came out of events knowing a. what they had done to muck up, b. what they needed to do to improve, and c. that doing so was possible. That sense is gone, and it makes me so angry on behalf of the athletes who've worked so hard to develop their craft.

I mean, yeah, we all know you can't fall in your footwork sequence; but I mean otherwise . . .

Yeah, scoring does seem a bit more arbitrary than usual.

 

[marbri]

Yeah, scoring does seem a bit more arbitrary than usual.

The judging at worlds just gave me flashbacks to a time where blocs forming to manipulate the standings to push certain teams up to insure some countries get the quota they desire was so blatantly obvious.

Which is what actually inspired my title suggestion I don't usually participate so I don't care what people pick, I just happened to see the question and was still smarting over yesterdays results from those cutthroat judges

 

[Karen-W]

What I appreciated about the 2015-2018 quad was the way the IJS allowed no mercy for the TEAM when one partner messed up their twizzles or step sequence. The team lived or died by the weaker partner.

I'd be fine with the judging system as it currently is set up where each partner is judged separately for the cleanliness & difficulty of their turns & edges, but I'd like it if it still made an appreciable difference. It just doesn't right now - the scale of values needs some major adjustment, IMO.

 

[kwanfan1818]

What I appreciated about the 2015-2018 quad was the way the IJS allowed no mercy for the TEAM when one partner messed up their twizzles or step sequence. The team lived or died by the weaker partner.

I agree, and I wish it were still so.

If one Pairs partner doubles a planned triple, they get credit for the double. I think levels should work the same way.

 

[skatingguy]

This is one of the reasons I think V/M won gold in 2018 over P/C. Their programs were more accessible to the general FS/Olympic audience.

Except that Virtue/Moir won because Papadakis' costume broke during the rhythm dance - Papadakis/Cizeron won the free dance, and Virtue/Moir won the competition by 0.79.

 

[skategal]

Except that Virtue/Moir won because Papadakis' costume broke during the rhythm dance - Papadakis/Cizeron won the free dance, and Virtue/Moir won the competition by 0.79.

I think the audience connection played a role in the FD because if they didn’t have it they wouldn’t have been close enough to P/C to put them over the top for the win.

Judges get swept up in the emotion of the performance and audience sometimes.

 

[PRlady]

The judging at worlds just gave me flashbacks to a time where blocs forming to manipulate the standings to push certain teams up to insure some countries get the quota they desire was so blatantly obvious.

Which is what actually inspired my title suggestion I don't usually participate so I don't care what people pick, I just happened to see the question and was still smarting over yesterdays results from those cutthroat judges

I would like someone in more teknik than me to explain why L/B scored 7 points less for their FD than at Euros. I saw the mistake in the RD, and a couple tiny hesitations in the FD, but I just watched it again and can’t explain a 7 point differential.

 

[Karen-W]

I would like someone in more teknik than me to explain why L/B scored 7 points less for their FD than at Euros. I saw the mistake in the RD, and a couple tiny hesitations in the FD, but I just watched it again and can’t explain a 7 point differential.

Not in-teknik, but I pointed out, right after Euros, that both of the French and Finnish teams scores were inflated compared to what they'd received on the GP during the fall. All four teams scores reverted back to their season's mean, more or less, at Worlds.

Yes, scores do tend to rise for Euros/4CCs and Worlds, but look at a team like SmaDie - their not-a-blade-wrong FD from Euros scored 122.85, and their equally not-a-blade-wrong FD yesterday scored 123.71 - that's an increase of less than 1 point - and just 5 points higher from where they started at Skate America with their 118.45 score, then Cup of China's 120.56 score.

By contrast, LopBri scored 117.49 at SCI, 117.52 at GPdF, and 118.93 at the GPF. Their Euros score was truly the outlier this season. That 124.93 in Tallinn never made any sense, and the 117.89 yesterday makes sense given the couple of tiny hesitations you acknowledge seeing. Without the hesitations, my guess is, with the dumpage we knew to expect due to the FBCiz coronation by the FFSG, they probably would have been closer to TurkVers' score of 120.86 or even bumping up to the 123.xx logjam.

TurkVers' score this week also underlines just how out-of-whack their Euros score of 124.43 was. They scored 118.29 at Finlandia, then 114.77 at CoC with a ! on their character step, so they lost about 2 points from that alone. This week, with a fantastic skate, they had a great score of 120.86, and it probably would have been a SB had they not been massively overscored in Tallinn.

Looking at the other two teams...

PiriHara - NHK 107.94, Finlandia 111.08, Euros 118.24, Worlds 110.74
DemLeM - NHK 109.06, CoC 111.73, Euros 113.87, Worlds 108.89 - they really did get the shaft here on their levels, and probably should have scored a couple points higher, though 2 points wouldn't have moved them ahead of PiriHara overall.

 

[Ikari]

Finnish teams in Tallinn were probably buoyed by effectively home crowd - Helsinki is only a short ferry trip away. That said, I do think both teams performed better in Tallinn than in the Worlds, especially PiriHara.
And if we're talking about anomalous scores, FearGib got effectively same FD score at Worlds as in the Euros (sans the deduction), with noticeably shakier performance.

 

[morqet]

Putting this in a separate post so it won't interfere with the thread-title discussion.

Rant: One of the things I loved so much about the 2015-2018 quadrennium was that despite heartbreak--and there was plenty of heartbreak--the majority of the time teams came out of events knowing a. what they had done to muck up, b. what they needed to do to improve, and c. that doing so was possible. That sense is gone, and it makes me so angry on behalf of the athletes who've worked so hard to develop their craft.

I mean, yeah, we all know you can't fall in your footwork sequence; but I mean otherwise . . .

I'm confused by this - everyone who got scores out of line with previous events either had much cleaner or much messier performances than their usual. The only team that I felt did have an inexplicable score were L/L - I thought they'd be nearer 120, and it's hard to see why their PCS has dropped by c1.5 points at both of the championships compared to their GP scores.

I would like someone in more teknik than me to explain why L/B scored 7 points less for their FD than at Euros. I saw the mistake in the RD, and a couple tiny hesitations in the FD, but I just watched it again and can’t explain a 7 point differential.

I can see a messy bracket and choctaw from Brissaud in the one foot sequence that drops him to a level 2. Loss of synchronization on the first set of twizzles that means their GOE is half a point lower than they'd usually expect. In the dance spin, he takes too long to get into a camel position, so they don't get enough rotations for it to count for the variation for level 4. Almost a point lower in GOE on their choreo steps than Euros - that is much more subjective, but the overall sense of being more hesitant and slightly messy will have held them back. And all those things feed into the drop in PCS as well - but it's just a drop back to where they were in the rest of the season. Euros was the outlier, not Worlds.

 

[BlueRidge]

I can't say I was very happy with the results, but I don't have any issue with them.

I think as the comments in the thread indicate, programs matter. And I think that's a good thing.

I was gnashing my teeth all season about LaLa's programs. I liked Sounds of Silence but I just felt it did not have enough to get them top 5, especially when up against programs like CarPom's and Smart & Dieck. I don't think LaLa are necessarily better than CarPom I think they have different skills and CarPom maximized the use of theirs.

Not as sure about why Lopareva Brissaud ended where they did though.

Mrazek's free dance just didn't have the impact needed but they skated great and with a stronger program they will be moving up the ranks, I have no worries. Their RD was my highlight of the whole event.

Taschlers just aren't getting what they need as far as the judges are concerned. They are being pretty consistently judged as not up with the top teams. I don't know what they need but I loved the opportunity to see them live. I found their FD gorgeous.

Green & Parsons FD may have been too subdued to move them up but it was so beautifully skated. Fantastic also was the tango by Turkila and Versluis, I thought that was really good on the small screen, it was even better live.

 

[Wyliefan]

I don't know what the judges were seeing when they watched L/L. What I saw, and what I almost always see with them (and I'm sorry for sounding like a broken record because I've said it so many times): They don't connect with each other. I don't know if that's holding them back in the judges' eyes, but it would be worth learning to connect, or at least to fake a connection, just to see if it gave them a boost.

 

[BlueRidge]

I don't know what the judges were seeing when they watched L/L. What I saw, and what I almost always see with them (and I'm sorry for sounding like a broken record because I've said it so many times): They don't connect with each other. I don't know if that's holding them back in the judges' eyes, but it would be worth learning to connect, or at least to fake a connection, just to see if it gave them a boost.

I think this is true, and was particularly pronounced with Sounds of Silence. There's a lack of cohesion in the programs because of this. They are fabulous skaters but they have got work to do to make the most of it.

 

[yurokis40]

Lala were incredible and were robbed by the american mafia at these worlds, carpom were overscored for obvious reasons she is canadian and needs citizenship for the olympics which she won`t get under the trump administration.