Courier Mail | ISU to introduce radical changes to stamp out ‘trading’ of young athletes

[Colonel Green]

You do know that Lord Coe was talking about forcing young athletes to move to and compete for foreign countries where they had no family or other existing connections, don't you?

If that's what he meant, then the use of that quote in discussions regarding Alexandrovskaya, which has been done repeatedly in media coverage, is quite inappropriate.

 

[Vagabond]

If that's what he meant, then the use of that quote in discussions regarding Alexandrovskaya, which has been done repeatedly in media coverage, is quite inappropriate.

It is what he meant.

Athletics: Some allegiance switches were akin to human trafficking - Coe

The new rules prevent anyone under the age of 20 from changing allegiance and demand athletes prove their ties to their new nation after a three-year waiting period.

www.hindustantimes.com

World Athletics chief Sebastian Coe believes some cases of young athletes switching allegiance between countries before he tightened the rules last year were all but indistinguishable from human trafficking.

The new rules prevent anyone under the age of 20 from changing allegiance and demand athletes prove their ties to their new nation after a three-year waiting period.

“It’s not an easy thing for me to say but I was finding it quite hard to see a difference between what was emerging and human trafficking,” Coe told Sydney’s Daily Telegraph.

Something is wrong, he said, “when you have a system where two federations could effectively shake hands behind closed doors and an athlete, with very little guarantee on either side of the protocol around that transfer, could suddenly end up competing for a completely different country.”

Coe is the head of the International Amateur Athletics Federation, track and field's equivalent of the ISU.

As has been mentioned in the most Alexandrovskaya thread, the Sydeny Daily Telegraph tends to sensationalize news stories.

 

[greenapple]

The Australian news agencies have probably written a total of 10 stories about figure skaters/skating in the past 50 years. Every story I have read about the death of Alexandrovskaya reeks of sensationalism. She is not here to defend herself so it is easy for anyone to write whatever they want about her and to promote assumptions that may not be true.

Athletes in every sport have been changing countries for decades and there has rarely, if ever, been an issue. If Alexandrovskaya was still alive none of these news outlets would care to write a single word about her struggle to develop a new life in Russia. This sudden interest is so distasteful on many levels.

 

[Dobre]

Athletes in every sport have been changing countries for decades and there has rarely, if ever, been an issue.

Often they change countries without even changing countries. To me, it is like immigration. It is likely to persevere because it is usually win/win. The athlete wins because they switch federations in order to have more opportunity, a better partner, better funding, etc. The new country or federation wins because they now have a more competitive team & an athlete that can earn berths to represent the country in international events or for other skaters. Still, I think a discussion about all of this with regard to the athletes' age would be a worthwhile discussion. There are long-term repercussions for making a federation switch that one really can't expect your average 13 to 16-year-old to understand. And while sometimes international country selection decisions have really positive outcomes--like Cathy Reed going on to head up a coaching program in Japan--they can also lead to athletes losing partners, missing out on years of competitive experience, and facing even more extreme pressure to produce results for families that have been uprooted or left behind. I do think worthy of discussion.

And what do you know? We have a thread for that.

 

[chameleonster]

I don't know very much about Track and Field, and it's possible that there is a genuine issue there. And I don't think it's entirely out of bounds to suggest that in at least some of these international partnerships may have some power imbalance issues and that the ISU needs to do more to support young skaters.

However, acknowledging that I am an outsider, it seems to me that most cases of skaters switching countries is due to a lack of opportunities in their home country, either due to a deep field or a lack of available partners. In the first case, it is skaters from a wealthier, more powerful federation switching to federations with less means but more opportunities--completely different to what Coe is describing. In the second, there is really not much to be done about the fact that ice dance and pairs requires a partner and that you sometimes have to consider moving in order to continue skating. Trying to increase interest in the sport around the world will only bear fruit years down the line. I also think it would be difficult to make the argument that the history of Canada and the US swapping skaters(Kaitlyn Weaver, Piper Gilles, Tanith Belbin, Christina Carreira, etc.) has significant power differentials. Furthermore the more notorious country hoppers in ice dance and pairs tend to come from money. Most pick a partner from a relatively early age and stick with them.

I think, at least in figure skating, if you want to try to protect young athletes in isolated environments, you need to take a closer look at skaters training abroad. Not to necessarily keep them from it--that's more likely to cripple the growth of skating and prevent anyone not already from a major skating federation from getting anywhere-- but to put protections in place and guidelines as to what skating federations owe to support young foreign skaters, regardless as to what country they're competing for. Although there really needs to be more support even for skaters training ten minutes from their home and surrounded by loving family.

 

[MacMadame]

I really think athletes switching countries is a non-issue.

The real issues are (a) young kids leaving home and living with their coach or partner, (b) young kids being abused by parents, coaches or partners and there is no one to protect them, (c) an attitude that if a skater is producing results, don't rock the apple cart even if they are clearly suffering, (d) a culture that encourages eating disorders, (e) a culture that encourages or at least does nothing to stop sexual harassment and assault.

And probably a few things I am forgetting.

 

[Immortelle]

The Australian, the Daily Telegraph and the Courier-Mail are all News Corp. They’re not interested at all in balanced journalism.

 

[nlloyd]

Furthermore the more notorious country hoppers in ice dance and pairs tend to come from money. Most pick a partner from a relatively early age and stick with them.

I think, at least in figure skating, if you want to try to protect young athletes in isolated environments, you need to take a closer look at skaters training abroad. Not to necessarily keep them from it--that's more likely to cripple the growth of skating and prevent anyone not already from a major skating federation from getting anywhere-- but to put protections in place and guidelines as to what skating federations owe to support young foreign skaters, regardless as to what country they're competing for. Although there really needs to be more support even for skaters training ten minutes from their home and surrounded by loving family.

While I agree with your last paragraph, I'm not sure it is accurate to characterize "country hoppers" as coming from wealthy families. In the case of Russia or the former USSR, those who leave home for other regions or countries are often less well off and are looking to improve their financial outlook by fulfilling skating ambitions. The two are related. The incidence of teens leaving home to live in new countries or regions, with families they do not know -- often their skating partner's family -- has proven problematic in many ways. One can see how vulnerable these skaters are when one considers the early career of Elena Berezhnaya. She followed Oleg Shliakov to Riga, Latvia after he decided to make that move. He then became abusive toward her in practices. She was in unfamiliar surroundings and they were training without a coach. She did not tell her mother, who was ill at the time and seems not to have accompanied Elena to Riga (https://web.archive.org/web/20051018161446/http://www.pairsonice.net/bns/transcripts/1998og.php).

This was not the case with Katia, but I think it is naive to think that moving to a new country without a support system, not speaking the language, not understanding the culture, and just having lost her father, did not take a toll on her. She did not have the strong support network needed for dealing with sudden success and then having that taken away.

 

[chameleonster]

While I agree with your last paragraph, I'm not sure it is accurate to characterize "country hoppers" as coming from wealthy families.

To clarify, by "notorious country hoppers" I was referring to some skaters who have been derided(perhaps unfairly) on forums for their multiple country changes, like Isabella Tobias or Allison Reed. Obviously when you look at everyone who has changed the country they represent it's much more of a mixed bag.

 

[rfisher]

Tobias and Reed were both adults and knew very well what they were doing and why they did it.

Skaters leave their home country if they don't have a partner there or they simply aren't competitive and they want to compete at big events. It's pretty simple. And most do it with their parent's approval. There are only three spots for 4CC, Euro, World or Olympic teams at a maximum. Usually less. If the skater isn't remotely going to make one of those spots, some try their luck elsewhere. There is no one-size fits all here. And, changing countries isn't that common among juniors. They wait and see how the competition is among seniors and then look for opportunities. Skating is very expensive and only a very few federations are able to financially support the skater. It's pretty much up to parents to fund. If the parents have no money and the skater isn't going to make the national team, they look for other opportunities. Most of them don't have the issues Katia had. Issues that manifested themselves when she was back in her home country without funds. So, was the Australian federation supposed to continue to sponsor her? She was no longer skating for Russia and hadn't for years. Her death is very sad, but where was her mother during this time? Is she more responsible for her child or skating, especially since she wasn't skating. We have no idea if she was under the Russian health care system or not. Which is an entirely different issue completely apart from skating.

And none of this has to do with skaters under 17 not competing at big events. That's being put out there to halt the young Russian women from winning everything. It won't remotely stop them from training the quads and 3As and it's ridiculous to think otherwise. And the Japanese and Koreans and the US as well.

 

[Frau Muller]

With all due respect to Lord Coe, calling this akin to "human trafficking" is rather absurd.

But as to the general question, partnerships between people from different countries are arranged in much the same way as partnerships between people of the same country, other than the added steps of (once a pair has been matched) securing a release from one of their respective federations (which may require money depending on what the releasing fed feels it's owed for any expenditures previously made). Coaches and the skaters themselves handle it, generally speaking; the coaches obviously stand to make money if they end up coaching the new pair.

Thanks. So no money for the “match making” deal, right?

 

[Immortelle]

I’m not sure but wasn’t Allison Reed only 15 or 16 when she skated for Georgia?

 

[allezfred]

Coe is the head of the International Amateur Athletics Federation, track and field's equivalent of the ISU.

Minor point: the IAAF rebranded in October 2019 and is now known as World Athletics.

 

[Natanielle825]

And none of this has to do with skaters under 17 not competing at big events. That's being put out there to halt the young Russian women from winning everything.

You're wrong. It's about humanity. Hundreds of gymnasts and skaters have spoken out about the abuse they endured by their coaches as children. We KNOW how top results in these sports are produced. I'm sure I'm in the majority of the FS fan base when I say I cant watch most junior skaters without a sick feeling in my stomach. We're not envious of the Russian skaters, we pity them. Any opportunity to make money off children breeds the worst adult behavior. Nothing will change until there are people in power who care more about children than money, and the community is so desperate for any sign that there are such people - that's why the support for an age change proposition. Some people feel pretty strongly about child exploitation.

 

[starrynight]

You're wrong. It's about humanity. Hundreds of gymnasts and skaters have spoken out about the abuse they endured by their coaches as children. We KNOW how top results in these sports are produced. I'm sure I'm in the majority of the FS fan base when I say I cant watch most junior skaters without a sick feeling in my stomach. We're not envious of the Russian skaters, we pity them. Any opportunity to make money off children breeds the worst adult behavior. Nothing will change until there are people in power who care more about children than money, and the community is so desperate for any sign that there are such people - that's why the support for an age change proposition. Some people feel pretty strongly about child exploitation.

I think there's two separate issues here - the concern of insufficiently supported skaters moving countries and then the issues around child exploitation in the training process.

A 17 year old age limit probably isn't the best solution to athlete support for changing feds and transition into retirement.

But I agree that a 17 year old age limit for seniors would be a good thing. It won't stop the Russian girls from winning. They will still win at 17. But I think it will ensure the senior athletes are old enough to be able to make their own choices and handle the intensity of the spotlight of senior international sports and also understand whether coaching and training methods are right for them before they enter the big time.

We see that around 17 many of the Russian girls do get more independence and agency over their own careers. Zagitova for example, has been making choices to benefit herself, Trusova, Medvedeva and Kostornaya etc have made choices about how they want to focus their careers etc.

I think that labour laws are always a reasonable guide. In many countries there are limits on how much a child can work at various ages.

 

[PairSkater12345]

It did for me - thanks!

Of course the article doesn't bother with clarity in the opening paragraph, but it does specify later on that this is regarding senior competition only, and if it goes through, will not happen in time to affect the 2022 Winter Olympics, but will kick in at the start of the following quadrennial.

It's basically the Dutch proposal from the last congress, revived to argue for the protection of minor skaters' mental health and wellbeing. I'm glad to hear it and I hope it goes through.

Dutch Proposal, How many figure skaters come from the Netherlands? Maybe it's all skating

 

[PRlady]

The old argument against higher age limits is that junior skaters would be doing harder content than their senior counterparts. Send a young Mao or Alena to Sr Worlds earlier as junior champions, and they beat their elders with their pre-pubescent bodies.

To me it’s about incentives. There are no incentives now for girls to master good technique and rotate the hard jumps after puberty. The incentive instead is to win Worlds or Olys at 15 and retire. It’s not good for the kids and it’s not good for the sport and we can’t turn a blind eye to the abuse, eating disorders, partner-trading and everything else endangering young skaters, especially the girls but the boys are not immune.

Change the age limit to 17 and nobody younger skates at senior events, not even the junior champions.

 

[starrynight]

As an aside, I also think it's a myth that a higher age limit will stop the girls doing the quads. It'll just be that the coaches will ensure that the girls between 17 and 23 etc have the technique to rotate them. If Tuktamysheva can learn a quad in her 20s, a girl whose trained them properly as she grew up will be able to keep them. I expect Trusova will keep quads probably her whole senior career. I'm kind of tipping her to be a Duhamel style fitness machine.

I think if coaches want to say a 17 year limit stifles progress, then that's a problem for the coaches' training methods.

I agree @PRlady that it's about incentives. If the incentive is there for longevity through the late teens and early twenties, it will happen. The sport is shaped around incentives.

 

[Vagabond]

But I agree that a 17 year old age limit for seniors would be a good thing. It won't stop the Russian girls from winning. They will still win at 17.

Maybe, maybe not.

The Russian World Team this past season would most likely have been Tuktamysheva, Samodurova, and Sakhanovich.

Tuktamysheva would have had stiff competition from Kihira for the gold medal.

Side note: What a Russian squad that would have been.

 

[Coco]

I don't think this will stop abuse, much of which is home grown. It may worsen it by removing the option for a teenage athlete to switch countries.

 

[starrynight]

The Russian World Team this past season would most likely have been Tuktamysheva, Samodurova, and Sakhanovich.

Tuktamysheva would have had stiff competition from Kihira for the gold medal.

And Zagitova, as she wouldn't have stepped away from competition if there was a 17 year limit. I think that Zagitova would have had good chances. Also I think that a 17 year old limit might have changed the path of Medvedeva's career a bit too. The 2018 Olympics would have been her first eligible season, so the fatigue and drama of coaching changes, public backlash etc might not have happened. Who knows?

Also I think that Kihira wouldn't have been eligible - I don't think she turned 17 prior to 1 July.

 

[Vagabond]

Rika Kihira was born on July 21, 2002, so you're right.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00054891.htm

At any rate, it isn't clear to me that the Russians would be winning at 17 under the new rule. They'd probably developing better technique and staying competitive at the top level for a few years longer, winning competitions into their twenties.

 

[PRlady]

Yeah, it's not like Russian ladies are immune to good technique and longevity, I don't remember Irina having jump problems well into her twenties and ole Maria B was OLD as they kept telling us. If Mishin can teach good technique and have a skater learning 3A and quads in her twenties, others can as well. The American girls like Mariah and Bradie are getting better in their twenties. The only reason we have this parade of pre-pubescent wonders is because Eteri figured out the current system and gamed it.

 

[Kateri]

And what happens if the age limit is raised, but all that changes is that everyone starts watching and following Junior women instead of Senior women, the prestige balance changes, and everything else continues as before?

 

[starrynight]

And what happens if the age limit is raised, but all that changes is that everyone starts watching and following Junior women instead of Senior women, the prestige balance changes, and everything else continues as before?

I think that things are going to change because there will be senior ladies with the technical arsenal going forward, so it won't just be the juniors.

I think we have just been through a period when quads were an exclusively junior wonder. But that's changed now that seniors are doing them too.

I think as we start to see an engaging senior lady have technical arsenal and good programs, the fascination with the juniors will wear off.

But if it's the case that none of these juniors can even make seniors (like people think) the sport will evolve to make sure that isn't the case.

And at the end of the day, big event like the Olympics, senior worlds, 4CC, Euros, GPs are never going to be outshone by junior events.

 

[clairecloutier]

And what happens if the age limit is raised, but all that changes is that everyone starts watching and following Junior women instead of Senior women, the prestige balance changes, and everything else continues as before?

This has been an ongoing and valid question in regard to ladies' skating and has often been cited as one of the reasons to have a lower age minimum.

I don't know if there is a sure answer to the question. I do think that raising the senior minimum from 15 to 17 is likely to create ripple effects that may wind up changing junior ladies to a certain extent, as well as seniors. Although we can extrapolate and make predictions, some things only become apparent once new rules are in action. It's also possible there could be further rules changes that would influence things one way or another.

My bias would be to make the change, see how it goes, then address issues as they arise.

 

[starrynight]

I think the moment a senior lady wins the Olympics, all the juniors will be reminded of the value of making it to seniors.

No way will juniors ever be more prestigious than seniors.

 

[muffinplus]

Yeah, it's not like Russian ladies are immune to good technique and longevity, I don't remember Irina having jump problems well into her twenties and ole Maria B was OLD as they kept telling us. If Mishin can teach good technique and have a skater learning 3A and quads in her twenties, others can as well. The American girls like Mariah and Bradie are getting better in their twenties. The only reason we have this parade of pre-pubescent wonders is because Eteri figured out the current system and gamed it.

Then why aren't other girls who are the same age ( and maybe prepubescent body types) aren't gaming the system by being able to be as consistent and have technically difficult programs?

 

[MacMadame]

I don't think this will stop abuse, much of which is home grown. It may worsen it by removing the option for a teenage athlete to switch countries.

There is nothing in this proposal that changes anything about switching countries. The headline is inaccurate and click-bait.

And what happens if the age limit is raised, but all that changes is that everyone starts watching and following Junior women instead of Senior women, the prestige balance changes, and everything else continues as before?

That hasn't happened in any other sports that have age limits like this. We should look to them to see how they avoided that while still having age limits.

I don't think a 17 age limit will pass though. It's too big a jump. I suspect they might raise the age limit to 16 at most.

 

[gkelly]

And what happens if the age limit is raised, but all that changes is that everyone starts watching and following Junior women instead of Senior women, the prestige balance changes, and everything else continues as before?

Assuming that the age limit is raised but the rules for program content stay the same, I do think it is likely that there will be at least as many triple axels and quads attempted in the junior ladies' event as in seniors.

Would that cause "everyone" to start watching juniors instead of seniors?

I don't think so. Casual viewers will watch what is presented to them on TV -- some of them only in conjunction with the Olympics. If most of what is shown on TV is senior competitions, that's what most viewers will watch.

The casual viewers who are primarily interested in jump difficulty may prefer the few junior events they get to see. Or they won't be aware of what they're missing.

Other casual viewrs tend to be more interested in artistry or maturity of presentation, so they would probably prefer watching the more mature young women.

These latter viewers especially may also have a strong distaste for falls and stumbles. So if the seniors are making more visible mistakes than the juniors, then these viewers might prefer juniors. But would that be the case?

As for serious skating fans who make an extra effort to follow the sport year-round, online and in person, again, there will probably be a larger percentage who are most excited by pushing the envelope on jump difficulty. Among this group, yes, junior ladies' events may well be of greater interest than senior. But this is only one subset of the viewership, far from "everybody."

Serious skating fans who are more interested in technical quality and in the PCS side of the sport may prefer the senior events.

And real diehard fans will watch as much of everything we can get.