Fire in London Apartment building - Grenfell Tower

[ballettmaus]

Several news sources have reported that the type of cladding they believe was used on this building is not allowed on tall buildings in the US for fire safety reasons.

They reported that in Germany, too. And we have the same regulations. Only non-flammable material is allowed to be used for cladding for buildings which are taller than 22 meters.

Heartbreaking to read the stories emerging, two especially are the five year old who was separated from his family on the climb down the stairs and the woman on one of the top floors who took to Facebook live to document her inability to escape and to say goodbye.

Each time I hear something like this, I end up thinking that I just hope that everyone who died was fortunate to pass out from smoke inhalation before the fire got to them. It's just horrible. I also can't imagine what it must be like for the firemen who are now going through the building. The tragedy they are faced with must be horrific.

 

[skatesindreams]

The Queen visits/comforts some of the survivors/families at the scene
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-close-tears-meets-grenfell-tower-residents/

 

[aliceanne]

What I find alarming is that there is an identical tower block across the street from the one that burned with the same exterior panels. I wonder how safe those residents feel living there now.

 

[loulou]

Wow, why are you being such an ass about this? Are you really so bloodthirsty that your life is incomplete until you know the exact number of dead?

And I really can't understand why you are banging on so much about the official death toll. Have a heart for FFS and maybe put the feelings of the affected families and victims before your own rubber necking.

I'm not sure whether this is personal, or genuine, or both (it doesn't look decent anyway).
But if you really think that I'm a heartless ass, well, in my opinion that's why people can die like they did.

A well known journalist, whose name I'll tell if anyone on here is curious, was once asked by students: "What advice would you have for beginners?". She answerded: "Defy power. Even in small stories, even when it superficially looks personal, find out power, and how it drove happenings".
That kind of journalism helps people to have better understanding of society.

Reportedly, this story begins with a renovation that made the building more vulnerable to fire than it was before, though science is fully available.
It continues with firefighters not being able to reach high, in (as allezfred called it) one of the welthiest city in the world, which has many more tall buildings.
And as you keep piecing it together, it gets uglier.

You, the one that called me an ass and the other that called me heartless, when do you think the story finishes?

I'm not fixeated on a number (which would be an estimate), personally, I don't care if I ever know it.
I care about what is told and what is not, by whom and when.
I think that pertains to understanding society, which aligns with the best interest of the victims, and ours.

 

[misskarne]

I'm not fixeated on a number (which would be an estimate), personally, I don't care if I ever know it.

Yes, you are. You're completely fixated on it, even making gross comments about whether they counted and identified bodies as they came down from the towers on 9/11, demanding to know why they won't tell us more. Why won't they tell us more? Because they don't know yet.

You harping on about the numbers, asking if the police will "hold their heads high" when telling us - which is a gross comment in itself, no-one will be proud of this, FFS - has nothing to do with the cladding, whether the building was up to fire code, or anything else. Nobody in this thread is denying that that is a problem. And I haven't seen anyone in the outside world say "you know what, we shouldn't investigate".

Your obsession with knowing the exact number has nothing to do with the story.

 

[Buzz]

There are a growing number of protests being held as anger at the government response also grows.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40298473

 

[allezfred]

I know things like this are difficult to manage, but I don't think I have ever seen a response to a tragedy handled as badly as this one by Theresa May's government and the local council. No wonder people are angry.

 

[ballettmaus]

A well known journalist, whose name I'll tell if anyone on here is curious, was once asked by students: "What advice would you have for beginners?". She answerded: "Defy power. Even in small stories, even when it superficially looks personal, find out power, and how it drove happenings".
That kind of journalism helps people to have better understanding of society.

Reportedly, this story begins with a renovation that made the building more vulnerable to fire than it was before, though science is fully available.
It continues with firefighters not being able to reach high, in (as allezfred called it) one of the welthiest city in the world, which has many more tall buildings.
And as you keep piecing it together, it gets uglier.

Do they need to find out what happened? Absolutely. And people are doing that or will be doing that. But this is more than just a story. This is a tragedy. People are dead. People lost their home. Everything they owned. Real people. They suffered through something horrible that many will probably never forget and I think compassion matters more right now than the story.

 

[SHARPIE]

I know things like this are difficult to manage, but I don't think I have ever seen a response to a tragedy handled as badly as this one by Theresa May's government and the local council. No wonder people are angry.

Is it any wonder when Corbyn and his ilk are practically accusing her of lighting the fire? Plus inciting violence?

I'm not saying she's brilliant but him and his political gains he's trying to make out of this shitstorm are beyond disgusting. Never mind the fact he was pictured with a member of the Grenfell Tower Scrutiny Committee. He's as slippery as a shiny shite. Time the public saw through this, "Uncle Jez promised us free stuff" bollocks. He has just led labour to their third election defeat and like the previous two leaders he should resign.

 

[mella]

For me Corbyn and Labour are at last doing their job as opposition and attempting to hold the government and council accountable for their decisions. I'm sure it's only a short break in proceedings before the shambolic infighting recommences but we can be sure that were Labour in government (whether it was for a prolonged period or since 9th June) the conservatives would (rightly) be doing exactly the same. That's part of the role of being in opposition.

To be fair to May and give her all credit she's made a monumental c*ck up of managing this even without Corbyn's contributions.

- Her visit to site without meeting residents happened before anger had risen to it's current level and almost simultaneously with St Corbyns visit. Had she attended then with appropriate security she'd have faced some backlash, yes - that's the pitfall of being a leader but most of the frenzy against her is because she didn't. If she can't handle angry voters she shouldn't be leading the country.

One of the former housing ministers who failed to action the report into the 2009 block remains in his new unelected post because he's one of her closest allies. Perhaps showing that his failure to deal with the report mattered to her would have helped?

To my mind they need to be challenged and none of us have the platform to do it so we're left with the opposition parties in Parliament. As well as failing to action a report into the last tower block fire:

- The government had postponed a review of the building regulations that deal with fire safety.

- There is no disputing the government voted last year against improving housing standards. Apparently its not necessary for rented accommodation to be fit for habitation.

- Our government has made massive slashes to police, fire and ambulance service budgets over the last 7 years, as well as local government funding. At pretty much unprecedented levels. As Home Secretary, May presided over the cuts to police and fire services and was pretty hideous whilst doing so. Would the fire service have been better equipt to fight this blaze had those cuts not been made? We'll never know. Had local councils been better funded would this building have had a more appropriate cladding system or better fire prevention and alert installations? We'll never know. But we do know the cuts have been huge.

- Boris Johnson's assertions as Mayor of London that further cuts to fire services were appropriate because of all the "work we are doing" to reduce instances of fire and deaths in fire have been shown up as the nonsense they were. The government has taken no significant steps towards improving standards (which you need to do to achieve the above) as evidenced by the lack of review of the building regs, the failure to implement a report that recommend sprinklers be retrofitted to buildings like this and the failure to ban products found to be inadequate in terms of fire performance.

- The council's choices around cladding the building appear to have been heavily weighted towards appearance from surrounding areas. The material used isn't the best fit for it's usage and has been found to be problematic in fires elsewhere. It is cheaper than the more appropriate options though.

Right now I'd rather see Corbyn and Labour attempt to hold the government and council to account than watch the Leader of the Council that own the property embark in victim blaming - Apparently it was appropriate for his council to decide not to install a sprinkler system because "residents didn't want the disruption". We're not talking about what colour to paint a bloody front door! Why was that even a point for discussion with residents? If your fire engineer recommends a sprinkler you put one in! Or maybe they didn't employ a fire engineer...

 

[millyskate]

Like @SHARPIE I'm fairly sickened at the political recuperation Corbyn is trying to make of this. Theresa May, whilst I think is being probably too harshly judged on her reaction *this* time round, is absolutely reaping the consequences for all the previous awful decisions as described by @mella .

In a case of really bad timing, it has just transpired the tories also lied about plans to close Charing Cross hospital and it's scheduled for disappearance (or reduction to almost nothing). I'm wondering if this is the tragedy that will finally get May to realise that the decisions she takes cost lives of people.

Only the Queen has been appropriate. Sometimes I wish the Queen would intefere more with public affairs.

 

[mella]

I guess my question is - If Corbyn is wrong to be asking the questions/making the statements that he is, who should be saying it?

I do agree that it's somewhat distasteful to be hearing some of it now - I feel in some ways similar about it as I do the shouts for a number to be put on the death toll NOW.

But I also feel that if the questions/issues are deferred to a later date they lose their impact and will get lost and called irrelevant in a way that a high death toll won't be. Lots of decisions on budget by the last two governments (and probably the Labour government before that) and the local council absolutely are relevant to this discussion. As is the general attitude to less well off people in some parts of our society. Will there ever be a time when it is ok for the opposition to raise these issues? Do they bother people because they are being raised or because Corbyn is doing the raising?

May herself has now said that the support for victims was not good enough. The response to this tragedy (on a humanitarian level) has been driven by the local community and the British public not by central or local government or the council. That cannot possibly be ok given the scale and nature of the incident. Yesterday the council asked the Red Cross to offer their assistance in the efforts. By that time £2.2m had already been raised (individuals and companies) in addition to the physical donations of bedding, clothes, toiletries, non perishable food etc - what does Red Cross setting up a fund now achieve? The powers that be have been one step behind from the word go.

 

[Aceon6]

@mella I've been reading about the support issues and finding it so strange. In cities in the US, the Red Cross is on site from the time of the fire and gets displaced people through the first days while administration of any disaster funds is set up.

 

[mella]

@mella I've been reading about the support issues and finding it so strange. In cities in the US, the Red Cross is on site from the time of the fire and gets displaced people through the first days while administration of any disaster funds is set up.

I honestly don't know if that would be the case here. I suspect not. I think this is very firmly a local government housing issue in terms of displaced people but I'll stand corrected if anyone else knows differently.

Would the Red Cross respond to something like this in that way or more like natural disaster events like forest fires, floods? That's what I associate them with more I think?

That said Red Cross had volunteers on the ground on Wednesday but as far as I understand it they were appointed in a more official capacity by the council on Friday.

"The charity has been asked by Kensington and Chelsea council to help co-ordinate fundraising in an appeal to support the residents and neighbours of the Grenfell Tower."

This is from their website on Friday. They also posted on weds about having volunteers on the ground.

In terms of the fundraising the timeline seems to be:
- Members of the public set up various crowd funding appeals quite early on on Wednesday.
- Evening Standard Newspaper mobilises its existing Dispossessed Fund to run an Appeal for Grenfell, I think Wednesday edition of the paper.
- By cob Friday total funding across the appeals reported at c £2.2m
- Red Cross appointment regarding fundraising announced, Friday.

I can see where their knowledge base would be really helpful in a case like this. What doesn't make sense to me is that it apparently took the council 3 days to decide they couldn't do/resource what needed to be done and find someone that could... and also they've instructed them at a time when presumably they know that the number of survivors needing long term support is unfortunately going to be limited (compared to the potential numbers reportedly likely to have been in the building). And it seems to me that launching another appeal creates less coordination rather than more?

 

[Aceon6]

Thanks, @mella It seems that the US Red Cross operates as a "first on scene" agency in most of the bigger cities. For large fires, they're called in before the fire is out and coordinate getting names of survivors, giving them a necessity kit, and determining if survivors need transport to a friend/relative or if they need short term housing secured and paid.

 

[millyskate]

@mella I think Corbyn's questions to the government have been mostly fair - if anything though, I would have directed more of criticism at the council and less at Theresa May. I didn't the feel comfortable at photo-opportunities comforting the victims though, they bothered me the most.
I would have liked to see more of a concerted effort with Sadiq Khan about changing the way London property runs, I'm feeling he's kind of been avoiding the question of Labour failing to tackle the ethical issues related to regenerations since he's been mayor of London, and failing to enforce the social housing quotas agreed in new developments.

What has transpired is that the slow-drip of information to the families just doesn't work. it didn't work for the Manchester or London bombings, it didn't work here. Humanly, I think people just need to know things like "although we can't offer official confirmation at this stage, we believe your loved one is likely to have passed away". The withholding of information contrasts with what is done in other countries, and although the sentiment behind is noble, it just exacerbates the pain.

 

[hanca]

@mella I think Corbyn's questions to the government have been mostly fair - if anything though, I would have directed more of criticism at the council and less at Theresa May. I didn't the photo-opportunities comforting the victims though, they bothered me the most.
I would have liked to see more of a concerted effort with Sadiq Khan about changing the way London property runs, I'm feeling he's kind of been avoiding the question of Labour failing to tackle the ethical issues related to regenerations since he's been mayor of London, and failing to enforce the social housing quotas agreed in new developments.

What has transpired is that the slow-drip of information to the families just doesn't work. it didn't work for the Manchester or London bombings, it didn't work here. Humanly, I think people just need to know things like "although we can't offer official confirmation at this stage, we believe your loved one is likely to have passed away". The withholding of information contrasts with what is done in other countries, and although the sentiment behind is noble, it just exacerbates the pain.

I think it is 'damned if they do, damned if they don't '. No win situation. If they notify people that their relative have most likely died and then the person is found in the hospital, it will cause a huge outcry about causing unnecessary grief to families in very difficult and stressfull situation. Personally I would prefer to keep the hope until I know for certain, even if with every passing day the hope would be getting smaller, rather than being told the bad news when no one even knows for certain. I think it is unfair about blaming anyone that they did not have the information about the number of people who passed away or their identity, because as they wrote in a newspaper, the temperatures were such that there may not be any remains left. In such situations it may be difficult to be guessing who was there at that particular night. People can stay with friends (i.e. not being there even if they live there), they could have been away/on holidays, extra relatives may have stayed there, children may have friends for sleepover, hundreds other reason why someone who doesn't live ther could have been staying there for that night, or why people who live there may not have been there. How can anyone expect the authorities to figure out within a day or two who was ther and who was not is beyond me. But it is so easy to criticise them and accusing them of witholding information...

 

[millyskate]

The way it is done elsewhere would involve:
-Having a centralised list for survivor families where they can find information about known people taken to hospital. Identity where known, gender, age-range and clothing where not known. It sounds basic but wasn't done for either of the three tragedies, meaning families had to run from hospital to hospital. It took well over 24 hours for certain families to find people in hospitals in both Manchester and this latest fire, which is not acceptable or necessary when the number of hospitalised people is relatively small.
-Having a centralised list of people missing and last known whereabouts that families can consult.
-Having a centralised information point that families can consult regarding update of recovery operations: eg, we've currently gone through floors 14-16, working on floor 17. If you listen to victims, that is just what they are asking for, nothing more.

 

[MsZem]

What has transpired is that the slow-drip of information to the families just doesn't work. it didn't work for the Manchester or London bombings, it didn't work here. Humanly, I think people just need to know things like "although we can't offer official confirmation at this stage, we believe your loved one is likely to have passed away". The withholding of information contrasts with what is done in other countries, and although the sentiment behind is noble, it just exacerbates the pain.

I don't know what are the differences in identification procedures in Israel vs. the UK, but back when there were frequent large-scale terrorist attacks, you'd usually see stories about the victims in the papers the next day - which means that their families would have been notified much sooner than that. I think all the identifications in the Carmel Forest Fire in 2010 were made relatively quickly, too - though recovery may have been less complicated because it was outdoors rather than in a high-rise building, and for the most part it was known who was supposed to have been there.

I can't imagine how difficult and heartbreaking this is for the family and friends of those who are dead, missing or severely hurt.

 

[Aceon6]

@mella I've just caught up with articles about the survivor family issues and I agree with you. It seems that people are justifiably ticked off that no one is taking responsibility for getting it all together and having a central point of contact within the local government. It's like the authorities are playing hot potato with it and are deflecting ownership.

 

[millyskate]

I don't know what are the differences in identification procedures in Israel vs. the UK, but back when there were frequent large-scale terrorist attacks, you'd usually see stories about the victims in the papers the next day - which means that their families would have been notified much sooner than that. I think all the identifications in the Carmel Forest Fire in 2010 were made relatively quickly, too - though recovery may have been less complicated because it was outdoors rather than in a high-rise building, and for the most part it was known who was supposed to have been there.

I can't imagine how difficult and heartbreaking this is for the family and friends of those who are dead, missing or severely hurt.

I suspect it's because other countries accept methods of identification that don't involve DNA or dental records - such as identification by the family. In addition I read an article about the UK process involving the police processing all the bodies for evidence before they are released for identification, which isn't always helpful.

In the case of this fire, it's not relevant - but certainly an exhaustive list of people hospitalised would have helped the families establish that their loved ones are missing, not injured, fairly early on.

 

[MsZem]

I suspect it's because other countries accept methods of identification that don't involve DNA or dental records - such as identification by the family. In addition I read an article about the UK process involving the police processing all the bodies for evidence before they are released for identification, which isn't always helpful.

As I wrote, I'm not sure what the identification procedure is in Israel, but I suspect that at least in some cases it is not possible to have a family member do the identification. Maybe the delay is due more to the second reason you mentioned? Funerals in Judaism are supposed to be held very quickly, so it's possible that recovery and identification procedures have been developed with that in mind.

In the case of this fire, it's not relevant - but certainly an exhaustive list of people hospitalised would have helped the families establish that their loved ones are missing, not injured, fairly early on.

I agree. But even knowing that a loved one is missing and not in hospital, I think at least some people would still hold out hope for a miracle. The uncertainty would be awful.

 

[judiz]

Very difficult task identifying victims and survivors. I read that some apartments were sublets so the name on the lease would be different than the person living in the apartment.

It was also the holiday of Ramadan and I
would not be surprised if quite a few tenants were celebrating with family when the fire broke out.

 

[allezfred]

As I wrote, I'm not sure what the identification procedure is in Israel, but I suspect that at least in some cases it is not possible to have a family member do the identification. Maybe the delay is due more to the second reason you mentioned? Funerals in Judaism are supposed to be held very quickly, so it's possible that recovery and identification procedures have been developed with that in mind.

Funerals in the U.K. normally are held a couple of weeks after death which has always surprised me as here it is usually within two days of the passing.

 

[mella]

Thanks, @mella It seems that the US Red Cross operates as a "first on scene" agency in most of the bigger cities. For large fires, they're called in before the fire is out and coordinate getting names of survivors, giving them a necessity kit, and determining if survivors need transport to a friend/relative or if they need short term housing secured and paid.

From The accounts I'm seeing this isn't happening. The Red Cross FB appeal page is now up and their responses to being challenged about what they are doing on the ground and how donations would be spent is pretty poor. You'd think as an organisation used to dealing with issues of this scale and bigger disasters there would be standard procedures around distributing funds, ring fencing and safe guarding funds, and dealing with survivors that they could refer people to. The standard response seems to be if you know someone who needs help tell them to call/come and find us. If they were on the ground weds morning why dont they know where the survivors were sent in terms of hotel accommodation and why aren't they keeping track of survivors being relocated etc?

@mella I think Corbyn's questions to the government have been mostly fair - if anything though, I would have directed more of criticism at the council and less at Theresa May. I didn't the feel comfortable at photo-opportunities comforting the victims though, they bothered me the most.
I would have liked to see more of a concerted effort with Sadiq Khan about changing the way London property runs, I'm feeling he's kind of been avoiding the question of Labour failing to tackle the ethical issues related to regenerations since he's been mayor of London, and failing to enforce the social housing quotas agreed in new developments.

What has transpired is that the slow-drip of information to the families just doesn't work. it didn't work for the Manchester or London bombings, it didn't work here. Humanly, I think people just need to know things like "although we can't offer official confirmation at this stage, we believe your loved one is likely to have passed away". The withholding of information contrasts with what is done in other countries, and although the sentiment behind is noble, it just exacerbates the pain.

@millyskate

Re Khan and social hpusing quotas i dont think the Mayor has that power. I think it lies with the local autjority planninh committees and officers who grant snd enfirce planning comsents. Committees have been consenting with lower levels of afgordable housing schemes when they get sob stories from developers about projects not being feasible if the build the affordable housing as per the requirements. I think the Mayor only gets involved in planning decisions if there is an Appeal on an outcome of a local authority appeal decision. I don't think he can force the local authorities to apply the quotas but I'm digging deep on old planning lectures now as I can't find anything to confirm quickly online either way.

Thanks for the info re how other countries deal with reporting survivors/missing/ confirmed deceased. I agree the current approach isn't working for this and didn't work well for at least the last two incidents. I hope they consider revising approach or at least having different approaches based on nature of incident. I think the social media era makes the current approach very difficult. Notwithstanding my earlier comments on releasing numbers it does seem ridiculous to be 5 days on and still be stuck on "58 but we expect it to rise further". At this stage a well organised response should have a better grasp on this and be in a position to communicate with survivors and families. Most recent suggestions are that those people aren't getting any more feedback than the public which is not good.

 

[Japanfan]

In such situations it may be difficult to be guessing who was there at that particular night. People can stay with friends (i.e. not being there even if they live there), they could have been away/on holidays, extra relatives may have stayed there, children may have friends for sleepover, hundreds other reason why someone who doesn't live ther could have been staying there for that night, or why people who live there may not have been there. How can anyone expect the authorities to figure out within a day or two who was ther and who was not is beyond me. But it is so easy to criticise them and accusing them of witholding information...

It going to take some time to sort all that through. Some young people tend to move around a fair bit, sometimes spending one night at the place of one friend, and the next night at the place of another friend. Some young people don't have a permanent address, and couch surf. Such people may not stay in regular touch with their families, so it could be awhile till they are identified as missing.

 

[millyskate]

From The accounts I'm seeing this isn't happening. The Red Cross FB appeal page is now up and their responses to being challenged about what they are doing on the ground and how donations woukd be spent is pretty poor. You'd think as an organisation used to dealing with issues of this scale and bigger disasters there woukd be standard procedures around distributing funds, ring fencing and safe guarding funds, and dealing with survivors that they could refer people to. The standard response seems to he if you know someone who needs help tell them to call/come and find us. If they wre on the ground weds morning why dont they know where the survivors were sent in terms of hotel accommodation and why aren't they keeping track of survivors being relocated etc?

Thanks mella. The reason I feel this way as that in uni, we had to do a project about the Heygate Estate and I followed closely that whole operation. It was considered by most to be "social cleansing", and the tactics involved in getting inhabitants to leave were really dirty.
The meagre quotas agreed under Boris were not even enforced under Sadiq.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/...evelopment-has-been-sold-to-foreign-investors
I kind of suspected this because I'd been hoping to apply for a shared ownership 1 bed at the time, but even as it was published it was already "sold out".

I'm not sure what theoretical powers Sadiq has, but Boris sure used to throw his around even where there was none to have. There's no way Sadiq couldn't have kicked up a fuss about this IMO.

 

[PRlady]

I know things like this are difficult to manage, but I don't think I have ever seen a response to a tragedy handled as badly as this one by Theresa May's government and the local council. No wonder people are angry.

You weren't here for Katrina. Leaving aside the terrible decisions, the sheer amount of indifference to poor people drowning was a standard it's hard to beat.

Thanks, @mella It seems that the US Red Cross operates as a "first on scene" agency in most of the bigger cities. For large fires, they're called in before the fire is out and coordinate getting names of survivors, giving them a necessity kit, and determining if survivors need transport to a friend/relative or if they need short term housing secured and paid.

When my condo building had a serious fire in 2015, the Red Cross was there within two hours. They found some people places to stay, provided food and water and warm drinks and other useful things. I still have a Red Cross blanket inside my cat's carrier.

We had no casualties or injuries, even to pets, but it's so scary to be thrown out of your home within minutes. (Most of us were out for seven months afterwards.) Those people need a lot of ongoing support and I hope someone gets it together to provide it.

 

[mella]

Thanks mella. The reason I feel this way as that in uni, we had to do a project about the Heygate Estate and I followed closely that whole operation. It was considered by most to be "social cleansing", and the tactics involved in getting inhabitants to leave were really dirty.
The meagre quotas agreed under Boris were not even enforced under Sadiq.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/...evelopment-has-been-sold-to-foreign-investors
I kind of suspected this because I'd been hoping to apply for a shared ownership 1 bed at the time, but even as it was published it was already "sold out".

I'm not sure what theoretical powers Sadiq has, but Boris sure used to throw his around even where there was none to have. There's no way Sadiq couldn't have kicked up a fuss about this IMO.

I was reading about this one a few weeks ago. As a minimum I agree he could make a fuss.

Was discussing this with family last night. Personally I think the rules should be changed to make them construct X% social, Y% affordable, and Z% unclassified in UK before being allowed to go and sell to speculative investors overseas but I don't suppose it will ever happen. I think when the council sell off land like they did in Catford there should be an absolute right if first refusal for those who had their homes compulsory purchase to buy back at a reasonable price. This whole approach of forcing people put of their homes and peddling lies is outrageous and the government and local councils are again complicit. So yes I agree - something else our opposition party and Mayor should be making a fuss about at least and pushing for changes to rules and enforcement of the flimsy rules we do have. Unfortunately I don't see any meaningful change coming during this government. And if we're honest probably not in the next even if it were Labour.

I dread to think what the response to Grenfell will be in terms of social cleansing in Kensington and Chelsea in the next 20years. I fear the prediction of one resident on Weds that they will use this to justify getting people out of their homes (and the area) and knocking down the blocks will be proven correct.

 

[PRlady]

@mella, you're right.

I lived in a gentrified neighborhood in DC, a historically African-American neighborhood that until about 15 years ago was a wasteland, never rebuilt after the 1968 riots. Fortunately in DC ordinary people have some political power and whenever buildings are knocked down for new construction, a certain amount has to be set aside for Section 8 housing for poor tenants or owners that were there originally.

This meant my large condo building had a number of little old black ladies who came to the condo meetings, giving the well-off yuppies a lot of sideeye when they launched into First World complaints about the dog-run, the broken treadmill in the gym, the concierge hours and so on. I got to be friends with one of those ladies whose dog had a crush on my cat -- seriously, she would bring the old dog down the hall to visit Oscar. That dog died the week before the fire and I felt so badly for her....

Anyway, of course under Trump they will try to change the federal regulations providing affordable housing, but it's up to the cities to defy the developers and do it anyway. Given that every mayor I've ever heard of has at least some developers as campaign contributors, it's always an uphill climb.

Incidentally, some of our suburbs have affordable housing rules as well so teachers and cops can actually live in the communities. Not enough and still too expensive but it's better than nothing.