Fire in London Apartment building - Grenfell Tower

[kittyjake5]

I have no words

 

[antmanb]

There's another thing I hear, I don't know whether to trust it: authorities think they already have a pretty good estimate, but they won't realese it because "public opinion isn't ready to hear it yet".

I don't think that's true at all. The number is what it is, and every time there has been a devastating fire the public know the death toll rises as more bodies are found, and as the critically ill die in hospital.

It is far more likely that before numbers are released, the authorities want to make sure that any surviving family members are made aware of deaths before the numbers hit the public because it would otherwise be unfair to them.

 

[maureenfarone]

Just an awful horrible tragedy. Prayers for survivors and all family members

 

[mella]

I don't think that's true at all. The number is what it is, and every time there has been a devastating fire the public know the death toll rises as more bodies are found, and as the critically ill die in hospital.

It is far more likely that before numbers are released, the authorities want to make sure that any surviving family members are made aware of deaths before the numbers hit the public because it would otherwise be unfair to them.

Agreed and that will be a painfully slow process as identification is going to be so very difficult.

Regardless of legality of status and records of people being there (It's just as likely that x was staying at their partner's place for the night), I assume burn victims, particularly of such a horrific fire, are amongst the most difficult to positively identify.

Relieved though that what I'm reading today indicated that the cladding us less likely to have had an unapproved core. It still looks like it didn't perform as it should have and maybe the method of insulation was not right. But the idea that someone my have dileberating shown a material known to be a fire risk on a building like was really doing my head in. I'm glad that seems less likely now.

 

[Aceon6]

@mella Given the hour, I'd be shocked if the number is lower than 50.

 

[skatesindreams]

Unfortunately, I'm afraid you are correct, Aceon6.

 

[floskate]

Just seen an interview with Lily Allen
on Channel 4 - she lives locally - who has called out the UK government claiming they are micro-managing people's grief and suppressing the true figures of fatalities. She said that off the record she had heard from the police and fire services that the true total is likely to be around 150 and many of those are children.

Just an utterly heartbreaking nightmare.

 

[skatesindreams]

floskate, thank you for sharing the information.

 

[Sylvia]

Grenfell Tower: Adele hugs and comforts people at the scene of the London fire: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...ondon-adele-building-kensington-a7790841.html

Latest updates: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ore-fatalities-after-tower-block-blaze-latest

 

[allezfred]

Absolutely shocking that this has taken place in one of the wealthiest cities in the world.

 

[Lara]

Horrific. And it remains to be seen how many in hospital survive (but my heart goes out to the injured survivors as well).

 

[Aceon6]

I am curious. Is it common in the UK for people to have their own smoke detectors to supplement the ones that are hard wired into the building wiring? My mother always insisted I buy a battery operated one, just in case.

 

[mella]

@mella Given the hour, I'd be shocked if the number is lower than 50.

Unfortunately I'll be shocked if it stays that low.

Just seen an interview with Lily Allen
on Channel 4 - she lives locally - who has called out the UK government claiming they are micro-managing people's grief and suppressing the true figures of fatalities. She said that off the record she had heard from the police and fire services that the true total is likely to be around 150 and many of those are children.

Just an utterly heartbreaking nightmare.

I tend to agree with @antmanb. It's likely less about suppressing numbers and more about trying to get information to relatives and next of kin before releasing a number like 150 which I suspect is likely to be nearer the mark but still seems fairly conservative given some estimates say there could have been 600 people in the block. Once they publically say a number like 150 they are going to struggle with dealong with the people who really need to know.

We (the gawping public if you like) want a number because it gives us closure of a sorts I think. But for those who have family missing that number won't help them. Not much will but the least the services can do try to now is to be sure before they deliver news that they are correct. The police will be under huge pressure trying to keep in touch with families in shelters, hospital, families who don't live in the tower waiting for news etc. And trying make sure they don't deliver the wrong news to some desperate family.

It's a massive task.

Whilst I don't trust our current government as far as I could throw them I do think the emergency services will be following an established protocol that attempts to do things right in horrific circumstances.

 

[mella]

I am curious. Is it common in the UK for people to have their own smoke detectors to supplement the ones that are hard wired into the building wiring? My mother always insisted I buy a battery operated one, just in case.

Very individual I think. Down to choice. It seems unclear at the moment whether there was a functioning hard wired system in this building. I suspect a battery operated one wouldn't have helped much in this instance. They obviously have quite a limited range and based on the timescales being reported it seems like the fire itself May have spread quicker than the smoke. It wasn't a slow burn with lots of warning smoke.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

Yes; in this case, due to the speed of the fire, it's possible that the smoke alarms would not have gone off before the fire got to a floor in many cases. I think they said the entire outside of the building was in flames within 30 minutes of when they believe the fire broke out. That is very fast.

I'd also think that sprinklers wouldn't have helped, as the fire was on the exterior. Not that this building had sprinklers. Apparently, it did not.

To further clarify the demographics of this building from earlier in the thread: I understand that although the neighborhood around the tower is pretty well off, the residents of the tower itself were mostly working class.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

@mella Given the hour, I'd be shocked if the number is lower than 50.

In terms of the number of people who may have died. I hope I am not right. But running the numbers. Using the BBC as my source. Based on the numbers of people who seem to have checked in, and who were or are in the hospital, plus those reported dead so far. Then seeing estimates of the number of people who may have lived in the building. This number may be significantly more than that. Again, information is incomplete, and I would be very happy to be wrong.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Relieved though that what I'm reading today indicated that the cladding us less likely to have had an unapproved core. It still looks like it didn't perform as it should have and maybe the method of insulation was not right. But the idea that someone my have dileberating shown a material known to be a fire risk on a building like was really doing my head in. I'm glad that seems less likely now.

We have a major issue in Australia with non-compliant cladding being used. There was a fire here in Melbourne in 2014 that could have been much worse. About 80 buildings in Melbourne have this style of cladding. Problem is that builders only have to sign it off, not the authorities. So there is no proper oversight.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...e/news-story/d173b0d8f3bb9410cc2ab7cd63b3daf8

Not sure how it operates in the UK.

 

[loulou]

It is far more likely that before numbers are released, the authorities want to make sure that any surviving family members are made aware of deaths before the numbers hit the public because it would otherwise be unfair to them.

I assume burn victims, particularly of such a horrific fire, are amongst the most difficult to positively identify.

The police will be under huge pressure trying make sure they don't deliver the wrong news to some desperate family.

I assume counting and identifying are different matters, so I guess one could say how many died even if they don't know who they were.
In terms of not releasing estimates before identifications and notifications are completed, is that common procedure? Say, did authorities identify every corps that came down with the twin towers and notify their families before releasing an estimate of the number of victims?

I don't think that's true at all. The number is what it is, and every time there has been a devastating fire the public know the death toll rises as more bodies are found, and as the critically ill die in hospital.

I carefully delivered news that was reported by what I think anyone in here would call press, but yes, more than one hint suggest we might not have great press.

Anyway, are you sure UK people and Londoners are ready to hear the number, and that authorities can hold their heads up high while delivering it?

It is my experience, authorities tend to know what sorts of lives and/or illegalities go on under their noses. They could very well know how many people slept in that building on the average day in question, minus the accounted for, here's your estimate.

True story. There's a country dealing with so called domestic terrorism, sometime in history. The so called terrorists kidnap a well know and wildly loved politician. They'll kill him unless their conditions are met. Secretary of State, Prime Minister and President hold the man's fate and for a number of reasons, mostly shameful, they decide to have him dead. But he is loved, and it will be hard to manage the public, expecially since they have little to excuse themselves. So one day press comes out saying his body was found. Public opinion goes crazy, and it looks unmanageable. Hours later they are let know it was just a mistake. The man held hostage reads the news and keeps a journal. The day his death was staged he wrote down they were going to have him die, he knew because the public had already cried a managed cry. Needless to say he was right.

Just seen an interview with Lily Allen
on Channel 4 who has called out the UK government claiming they are micro-managing people's grief and suppressing the true figures of fatalities. She said that off the record she had heard from the police and fire services that the true total is likely to be around 150 and many of those are children.

That makes two similar reports.

Absolutely shocking that this has taken place in one of the wealthiest cities in the world.

A reporter that has been based in London fourty plus years (and loves May, just a tiny bit less than he loved Thatcher) said firefighters arrived later than police, and were only equipped to try and manage flames up to 12th floor, they couldn't reach any higher. He also said that the speed the building torched up is likely to bring this to penal court.

A catholic politician used to say if you assume the worse in people you sin, but you almost always get it right. I used to not understand.

The fact London is one of the wealthiest cities in the world, could go hand in hand with what happened.

We (the gawping public if you like) want a number because it gives us closure of a sorts I think. But for those who have family missing that number won't help them. Not much will but the least the services can do try to now is to be sure before they deliver news that they are correct.

I don't think society needs closure, but I do think it needs accurate archieves, even as things unfold. I also think the best interest of society and of those that are missing family align.

 

[mella]

We have a major issue in Australia with non-compliant cladding being used. There was a fire here in Melbourne in 2014 that could have been much worse. About 80 buildings in Melbourne have this style of cladding. Problem is that builders only have to sign it off, not the authorities. So there is no proper oversight.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...e/news-story/d173b0d8f3bb9410cc2ab7cd63b3daf8

Not sure how it operates in the UK.

I've seen reference to Grenfell having the same cladding as the Melbourne building but not sure that's confirmed yet.

I don't think the cladding would require z specific sign off and the data sheets probably work on paper.

The "approved" cores a driven by LPCB which relates to insurance and insurability rather than compliance and safety which is completely ar*e about t*t. Buts it's becoming clear that the government has obstructed dealing with the issue from a safety and compliance perspective so the insurance angle is the only one open to assess what might be reasonable.

In answer to the comment re sprinklers (@GarrAarghHrumph) they should help keep the exit routes clearer of smoke and safer for exit which is what could have saved lives (the descriptions of the conditions in the single exit stair are awful). But you're correct they wouldnt usually be positioned to stop the spread of fire up the outside of the building.

 

[loulou]

Relieved though that what I'm reading today indicated that the cladding us less likely to have had an unapproved core. It still looks like it didn't perform as it should have

I wish "unapproved" and "inadequate" were one and the same.

 

[mella]

@loulou of course counting and identification are different. My point is I think in terms of communication it's right that numbers are confirmed once the appropriate family members have been notified. That's a typical procedure in the UK in disasters and is consistent with confirmation on numbers dead in recent terrorist attacks I believe.

It's all well and good for the likes of Lily Allen to broadcast off the record information that she probably shouldn't have but it's not particularly helpful for those already doing a difficult job.

As for the public being ready for the numbers I drew my own conclusions yesterday afternoon (14th June) much as @GarrAarghHrumph has done a couple of posts up and I'm sure those living in the tower or with relatives living there did so even earlier. Discussions with friends and family today indicate they have done the same. So I don't buy into this idea that the public aren't ready to hear. Maybe May doesn't want to hear. But just as in the terrorist attacks the public know what is coming and are braced for far worse than 50 or even 150 as I indicated above.

Yes the archives need to be accurate and I'm sure they will be. But that's not the same as breaking procedures to state a number now.

ETA:Worth considering even the counting and confirming the anticipated number could be quite slow. The process of getting into all the areas of the building to actually search will be quite tentative I imagine due to the risks. One report suggested they will be/are using dogs to help locate victims as well which I assume is an indicator of how hard it is going to be to ensure nothing/no one is missed.

 

[twinsissv]

Oh my lord! I was not prepared to see this.
The sight of the playground equipment shown today was so heartbreaking. Burnt slide boards and swings brings it all back into focus so tragically. Families...children...pets...lives all gone...When we start our boring daily routines, we have no way of knowing how they will end...do we?

 

[mella]

I wish "unapproved" and "inadequate" were one and the same.

Ditto. And I wish "unapproved" related to life safety rather than insurance of property and stuff. The feeling that the insurance industry in the UK at least attempted to address an issue some 15 years ago that has still not been properly addressed in our safety legislation is hideous.

 

[loulou]

My point is I think in terms of communication it's right that numbers are confirmed once the appropriate family members have been notified. That's a typical procedure in the UK in disasters and is consistent with confirmation on numbers dead in recent terrorist attacks I believe.

I don't think communcations matters much in this instance, I think facts do, and that they should be officially heard sooner rather than later.

As for the public being ready for the numbers I drew my own conclusions yesterday afternoon [...]. So I don't buy into this idea that the public aren't ready to hear. Maybe May doesn't want to hear.

Drawing your own conclusions and having your authorities telling you isn't the same. Delaying, and letting you draw conclusions will however ease their roads: they are giving you the time to calm your indignation and come to terms with tragedy. - It's not that May doesn't want to hear, rather she doesn't want to tell. Well, that's my take.

Yes the archives need to be accurate and I'm sure they will be.

I can't but envy you. (Not with malice, of course).

But that's not the same as breaking procedures to state a number now.

It's related. Accurate archives don't go well together with reluctant authorities, inadequate cladding and lack of legislation.

The feeling that the insurance industry in the UK at least attempted to address an issue some 15 years ago that has still not been properly addressed in our safety legislation is hideous.

Hideos is one word.

 

[misskarne]

Say, did authorities identify every corps that came down with the twin towers and notify their families before releasing an estimate of the number of victims?

Wow, why are you being such an ass about this? Are you really so bloodthirsty that your life is incomplete until you know the exact number of dead?

Anyway, are you sure UK people and Londoners are ready to hear the number, and that authorities can hold their heads up high while delivering it?

I think the majority of people know it's going to be a terrible number. The vast majority can look at the size of the building and the time of night, and realise it's going to be bad. I doubt the authorities will "hold their heads high" delivering it, because it will be terrible news. It's not something to be proud of.

 

[hanca]

@loulou, I think figuring out the numbers may be quite difficult. Should they rely on the knowledge of who was 'supposed' to be living in the flats, or should they count only bodies they recovered? In some newspapers they wrote that the temperature in some parts of the building reached to 1000 degrees C, so I am not sure if there would be much left from the people. And if they rely on who is supposed to be living there, it would be quite inaccurate, because someone's relatives might have come and stay, someone's partner could have stayed over at that particular night, someone may be subletting their flat to other people... people can do whatever they want to with their accommodation and at that night there could be any number of additional people staying from various reasons. So assuming that only people who usually lived at the address were staying there that that night may not give very accurate numbers. In a sense, it was much easier to figure out who was in twin tours, because only people employed there would have been there, and every employer should know who they employ. But in this situation in London, it is private housing and people could have had there anyone without having to report it anywhere. So there is no accurate list of who was there at that night.

 

[antmanb]

I assume counting and identifying are different matters, so I guess one could say how many died even if they don't know who they were.
In terms of not releasing estimates before identifications and notifications are completed, is that common procedure? Say, did authorities identify every corps that came down with the twin towers and notify their families before releasing an estimate of the number of victims?

I really don't understand what 9/11 - a terrorist incident that took place in the US - has to do with the protocol the emergency services used for a fire in the UK? There isn't some international standard. These things are all internal policies.

And I really can't understand why you are banging on so much about the official death toll. Have a heart for FFS and maybe put the feelings of the affected families and victims before your own rubber necking.

 

[judiz]

I read last night that there was a gap between the cladding and the building's exterior that acted like a chimney, drawing flames upwards. Although the authorities have not mentioned the cause, newspapers published the photo of the man who first sounded the alarm about the fire, after his refrigerator caught fire on the fourth floor.

Heartbreaking to read the stories emerging, two especially are the five year old who was separated from his family on the climb down the stairs and the woman on one of the top floors who took to Facebook live to document her inability to escape and to say goodbye.

 

[millyskate]

A first estimate as been released, with 30 confirmed fatalities and up to 76 missing. This places the number of casualties around 100.
What a tragedy.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

Several news sources have reported that the type of cladding they believe was used on this building is not allowed on tall buildings in the US for fire safety reasons.