2024-25 USFS International Assignments

I know it sounds wild but perhaps the solution may be to send fewer top tier skaters to challengers which will open up slots for those who now have to pay their way.

That was how it was done ten years ago until Lisa went to everything under the sun and others followed suit.
There is no proof that going to challengers improve your odds at worlds anyway
 
If a federation has no money then should the fed let folks pay their way or simply not send anyone?
I think many feds do this, especially the smaller ones. Finland, for example, only pays for their top skaters/teams. The others they send have to pay for everything.

For the US, the big advantage is that skaters who will never be given a GP/JGP and other fed-sponsored competitions now have a chance to get international competition experience. They get to build their international ranking, get more chances to get the minimum TES scores for the Worlds, and gain more international exposure—which they will never be able to do if they wait for the fed-sponsored competitions.

The downside is the cost—and it is substantial. And yes, skaters will struggle even more to afford these international opportunities, and some will not be able to do it. Unfair? Yes, but this is what elite sports is about. Often it is not just about talent, but availability of funds. I hope we'll see the likes of Flavor Flav, who decided to sponsor the US Women's water polo team at the Olympics, in skating.

It is important to point out that skaters and their families can accept or reject the assignment. I know some skaters who previously said they did not wish to be considered for the pay-on-your-own option, yet they have been given one of these assignments. After all, the international selection committee was the one who decided who to send, so the skater and their families try to make it work (if possible):

  • fundraise, if needed
  • some bake sale (or order X number of bags of baked goodies/popcorn from this website)
  • ask the coach/coaches not to come; instead, ask them to find alternative coaches who will be at the competition (saves a lot!)

It's tough for parents who are paying for their elite skaters, and we've heard many stories about the kinds of sacrifices they make—getting a second mortgage for their homes, working three jobs, and getting up to their eyeballs in debt, etc. Chasing dreams is never easy, isn't it?
 
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USFS requires a coach there. You can ask another coach to put you on, but that opens another can of worms with the skaters own coach.
 
USFS requires a coach there. You can ask another coach to put you on, but that opens another can of worms with the skaters own coach.
Even for skaters who are legally adults? That seems to me to be rather excessive. I mean, someone like Joonsoo Kim or Yaroslav Paniot should be able to handle putting themselves on the ice and the rigors of international travel.
 
I think many feds do this, especially the smaller ones. Finland, for example, only pays for their top skaters/teams. The others they send have to pay for everything.
This is true: most small and medium-sized feds in Europe don't cover costs for B events and even challengers, and many skaters have to cover coaching costs themselves (we've all heard about Annika Hocke's woes with the lack of DEU funding, BIS only started paying for coaches at championship events a couple of years ago). A difference is that there are a lot more B events in Europe, so while still non-negligible it's more affordable to take a budget airline to some small town with an ice rink than to have to pay for intercontinental travel. And the skating population of smaller feds seems to be less distributed so the coaching cost will be shared, e.g. BIS will send a group of skaters from Dundee to one B event and a group from Nottingham to another.

If USFS don't have the money, they don't have the money, so I think a consistent approach is important. Are they covering the costs for all JGPs, Challengers and above and asking skaters/skater families to cover all events below that, or are they picking and choosing on which events are pay to play?
 
It sounds like all concerned parties need to be
Participating in the usfs governing structure so as to iron out a solution.

Perhaps they need to change the rules so coaches don’t need to be present, or maybe top skaters don’t need so many pre gp assignments.
 
Or maybe work to have more international B events in North America?

The old North American Challenge Skate (NACS) series seemed to cover a lot of the goals of these self-funded events, e.g., let mid-tier juniors and rising novices have the experience of international travel and competition. I believe USFS and Skate Canada covered their skaters’ expenses at NACS, but perhaps there could be a reboot where skaters pay-to-play. It would be cheaper to travel to Canada or Mexico and could still be a great opportunity for junior and novice skaters.
 
If USFS don't have the money, they don't have the money, so I think a consistent approach is important. Are they covering the costs for all JGPs, Challengers and above and asking skaters/skater families to cover all events below that, or are they picking and choosing on which events are pay to play?
Pretty sure that the travel costs for JGPs are being covered by the USFS - the JGP Announcements for each event state the following regarding expenses:

The organizer will provide and cover the expenses for rooms and meals for all Competitors and Judges participating, beginning with dinner on Tuesday until breakfast on Sunday.

Should any Competitor or Judge arrive at the hotel before or stay longer than the period described above, their room costs and expenses will be the responsibility of the individual and must be paid on arrival.

The organizer will provide and cover the expenses for rooms and meals also for the Referees, the Technical Controllers, the Technical Specialists, the Data & Replay Operators. If any longer period is agreed upon with the Organizing Committee, the period of coverage will be prolonged as agreed.

All extra expenses incurred by any Team Member or any kind of Official will be the responsibility of that person and must be paid prior to departure.

The Judges, the Referees, the Technical Controllers, the Technical Specialists and the Data & Replay Operators will receive remuneration in accordance with ISU Communication No. 2096, paragraph 1, a (or any update of this Communication). Only hard currencies are acceptable. The remuneration will be paid upon accreditation. The ISU will reimburse the total relevant costs upon receipt of an invoice stating the number(including names) of the acting officials and their signature.

So, the USFS is on the hook for airfare/travel for all competitors, coaches, fed officials, medical staff, etc. I believe each skater/team also has to have a designated chaperone - not sure if each needs a separate one or if one parent can double up - ie Jacob's mom could be Emilia's chaperone.

For GPs, the organizing fed is responsible for all meals, lodging & travel expenses for all Competitors, Judges, Referees, Technical Controllers, Technical Specialists, Data & Replay Operators, as well as ISU Representative, ISU GP Coordinator from Wednesday through Monday. There is one caveat -

If a Skater/Couple or Judge does not start an event, that Skater/Couple’s or Judge’s ISU Member is obligated to cover the expenses for travel, accommodation and meals for the Skater/Couple or Judge.

So, there's a strong incentive for feds to withdraw their skaters/couples within an appropriate amount of time so they're not on the hook for those travel & lodging costs that can't be fully refunded. And the USFS is still responsible for paying for the travel/lodging/meal expenses of coaches, fed officials, medical staff, etc.

Challengers are different in that the cost for the competitors is NOT paid for by the organizing fed. So, the USFS would be on the hook for the travel, lodging & meal expenses for any and all skaters who are entered as well as their coaches, fed officials, medical staff, etc.
Perhaps they need to change the rules so coaches don’t need to be present, or maybe top skaters don’t need so many pre gp assignments.
Except that the Challengers offer WS points and not having those can negatively impact your WS which can then impact starting orders at ISU Championships as well as whether or not you wind up in the WS Top 24 and are guaranteed 1 GP assignment the following season.

Sure, not having WS points isn't going to hurt skaters like Malinin or Chock/Bates who rack up a ton of points in winning the GPF and Worlds, but it impacts skaters just a bit further down the food chain who may wind up with no GP or only 1 on the initial assignments list because of their position on the WS and/or SB lists.

Additionally, the USFS has incorporated Challenger/Sr B scores as part of the BOW calculations used to determine the ISU Championships teams. Having a good result at a Challenger or two can help offset a bad result at another competition like a GP.
 
USFS requires a coach there. You can ask another coach to put you on, but that opens another can of worms with the skaters own coach.
It all depends on how things are arranged beforehand and how understanding all parties are. From my experience, coaches are willing to step aside or even arrange for an alternate coach, if only to lower the skater's financial burden by not having the coach travel to the competition.

One of the entrants to Tayside will not have their coaches. The main coach contacted a UK-based coach they know will attend the event. To reduce the cost, the coaches decided not to go with the skater to Tayside. They communicated this arrangement to USFS, and USFS agreed. Otherwise, that skater would have backed out due to the expense.
 
They cover GP, JGP, but for Challengers, some are paid for, some have to self-fund. For example, Cranberry, USFS funded 4 senior men and 4 senior women. The rest had to self-fund. Juniors were all self-funded as was advanced novice.
 
They cover GP, JGP, but for Challengers, some are paid for, some have to self-fund. For example, Cranberry, USFS funded 4 senior men and 4 senior women. The rest had to self-fund. Juniors were all self-funded as was advanced novice.
Which makes sense since we know there were 4 women there as the SkAm host TBD skateoff competition within the competition. Stands to reason there were 4 men also there as part of the SkAm host TBD spot competition with the competition.
 
Pay your own way is better than denying everyone the opportunity. Money is a reality of life, and most skaters from cash-strapped families have dropped out way before pay-to-play Senior Bs.

Neither Dundee nor Nice are terribly expensive places, especially in the off-season. I suspect the total economy travel cost could be $1,000 per person or less from the US with a little bit of advance planning and good airfare luck. That doesn't account for coaching costs, but there's nothing requiring a skater to bring their coach, no?
Actually the cost of the trip for one skater and coach to Nice is over $5K

Airfare for skater and coach RT LAX to CDG to NCE: $1000 each in economy: $2000
Hotel for both skater and coach (USFS puts them both with another colleague, so essentially the skater is paying for one room per night) 6 nights @ $150: $1000
Meals at $50 per day per skater and coach: $600
Entry fee: $250
Team USA jacket (required): $200
Coaching fee for the week $1000 (this may vary depending on coach and location, YMMV)

$5050 TOTAL.l

And this doesn't include any fun stuff or trinkets.

I know these numbers because I helped get one skater the funding to go to Nice. His family could not possibly afford it.

BTW - Many federations have the skaters foot all or some of the bill. This is not a unique thing that is just at USFS. USFS has been one of the last feds to always pay the entire bill (except coaching fee, that has always been the skater's responsibility). I believe that Canada has their lower levels including JGP, pay part of their travel and Philippines doesn't pay anything at all. If I am incorrect, please advise.

Just thought those of you discussing this should know the facts.

Carry on! ?
 
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Even for skaters who are legally adults? That seems to me to be rather excessive. I mean, someone like Joonsoo Kim or Yaroslav Paniot should be able to handle putting themselves on the ice and the rigors of international travel.
The USFS sends a team leader who is there to make sure all goes well for all of the competitors. They are there all the time, being the person in charge of the entire team, paid for by USFS or self. The team leader is usually a judge or other skating official. At some smaller competitions the TL , if they are a judge or other official, also serves on the judging panel of the event, thus saving a head cost. Federations must contribute officials to international comp panels.
 
Actually the cost of the trip for one skater and coach to Nice is over $5K

Airfare for skater and coach RT LAX to CDG to NCE: $1000 each in economy: $2000
Hotel for both skater and coach (USFS puts them both with another colleague, so essentially the skater is paying for one room per night) 6 nights @ $150: $1000
Meals at $50 per day per skater and coach: $600
Entry fee: $250
Team USA jacket (required): $200
Coaching fee for the week $1000 (this may vary depending on coach and location, YMMV)

$5050 TOTAL.l

And this doesn't include any fun stuff or trinkets.

I know these numbers because I helped get one skater the funding to go to Nice. His family could not possibly afford it.

BTW - Many federations have the skaters foot all or some of the bill. This is not a unique thing that is just at USFS. USFS has been one of the last feds to always pay the entire bill (except coaching fee, that has always been the skater's responsibility). I believe that Canada has their lower levels including JGP, pay part of their travel and Philippines doesn't pay anything at all. If I am incorrect, please advise.

Just thought those of you discussing this should know the facts.

Carry on! ?
Just want to point out that the airfare is going to vary based upon where in the US you're traveling from. Of course it's going to be more expensive to go from the West Coast to Nice than it is from the East Coast or Midwest. For example:

RT JFK to CPH to NCE is $640
RT ORD (Chicago O'Hare) to EWR to NCE is $722
RT BOS to AMS to NCE is $604
RT IAD (Dulles) to MUC to NCE is $679
RT PHL to FRA to NCE is $834

So, a skater coming from almost any destination on the East Coast or the Midwest is going to have a significantly lower airfare cost than anyone not flying from the West Coast, Denver or (oddly enough) Detroit, where the airfare is closer to that $1000/person RT.
 
Just want to point out that the airfare is going to vary based upon where in the US you're traveling from. Of course it's going to be more expensive to go from the West Coast to Nice than it is from the East Coast or Midwest. For example:

RT JFK to CPH to NCE is $640
RT ORD (Chicago O'Hare) to EWR to NCE is $722
RT BOS to AMS to NCE is $604
RT IAD (Dulles) to MUC to NCE is $679
RT PHL to FRA to NCE is $834

So, a skater coming from almost any destination on the East Coast or the Midwest is going to have a significantly lower airfare cost than anyone not flying from the West Coast, Denver or (oddly enough) Detroit, where the airfare is closer to that $1000/person RT.
Of course there are variables, but it's also depending on when the skater is notified and when they book the flights. But, yes, we are further away out here in Skating Nervana.?

But, does location make it any fairer? "Life ain't fair".
 
Of course there are variables, but it's also depending on when the skater is notified and when they book the flights. But, yes, we are further away out here in Skating Nervana.?
The airfare result that really surprised me was Detroit - especially since Toronto was similar to Chicago O'Hare in price. I guess if your options are Detroit, Toronto or Chicago, you probably choose the cheaper one and drive a few hours to and from the airport.
 
The airfare result that really surprised me was Detroit - especially since Toronto was similar to Chicago O'Hare in price. I guess if your options are Detroit, Toronto or Chicago, you probably choose the cheaper one and drive a few hours to and from the airport.
Maybe an offshoot of Memorial Fund should be proposed to help skaters being offered an International comp but unable to find it?
 
The USFS sends a team leader who is there to make sure all goes well for all of the competitors. They are there all the time, being the person in charge of the entire team, paid for by USFS or self. The team leader is usually a judge or other skating official. At some smaller competitions the TL , if they are a judge or other official, also serves on the judging panel of the event, thus saving a head cost. Federations must contribute officials to international comp panels.
They also send a medical personnel (usually a physical therapist or Md)
 
Actually the cost of the trip for one skater and coach to Nice is over $5K

Airfare for skater and coach RT LAX to CDG to NCE: $1000 each in economy: $2000
Hotel for both skater and coach (USFS puts them both with another colleague, so essentially the skater is paying for one room per night) 6 nights @ $150: $1000
Meals at $50 per day per skater and coach: $600
Entry fee: $250
Team USA jacket (required): $200
Coaching fee for the week $1000 (this may vary depending on coach and location, YMMV)

$5050 TOTAL.l

And this doesn't include any fun stuff or trinkets.

I know these numbers because I helped get one skater the funding to go to Nice. His family could not possibly afford it.

BTW - Many federations have the skaters foot all or some of the bill. This is not a unique thing that is just at USFS. USFS has been one of the last feds to always pay the entire bill (except coaching fee, that has always been the skater's responsibility). I believe that Canada has their lower levels including JGP, pay part of their travel and Philippines doesn't pay anything at all. If I am incorrect, please advise.

Just thought those of you discussing this should know the facts.

Carry on! ?
I'm assuming if a coach has skaters competing in Nice, their coaching rate will be much higher than $1,000 a week. In my daughter's club, there are a couple of coaches with skaters who compete internationally. Their coaching rate for international competitions is $800 & $1000 A DAY!
 
This may well be a stupid question, but is the value actually there for a coach to accompany each skater to a competition? And surely most small federations don't send a medical person to each competition. I wonder if there ought to be a rethink on what is actually needed based on what other federations actually do--and whether there might be some reasonable collaboration with Canada to have a consolidated team support structure that would lessen costs for both federations and athletes.
 
The airfare result that really surprised me was Detroit - especially since Toronto was similar to Chicago O'Hare in price. I guess if your options are Detroit, Toronto or Chicago, you probably choose the cheaper one and drive a few hours to and from the airport.
Detroit isn't really a "big" city like the other two, which makes flights less frequent and more expensive. Toronto is now bigger than Chicago population-wise, but Chicago is still the 3rd most populated city in the U.S. Most non-Chicago midwest cities are pretty expensive to fly to and from outside of the region.
 
i know of a skater who was offered one of these newly self-funded competitions. he is very talented, put in the work, and made ISP year after year. his family has limited financials and due to limited spots this year, this is probably his only opportunity for an international competition this season. due to his family's financial situation, he was unable to accept the offer. i feel for this skater. must not be easy to see others who are able to self-fund and compete internationally when he was equally deserving but for his family's financial situation.

I'm just wondering how other skaters NOT getting to go would have improved things for this skater? He couldn't go either way, but it would have been better if no one could?

Skating has always been pay to play because it is a wildly expensive sport that most families could never swing and, in most cases, they should not for the sake of their family.

It also feels a bit privileged to insist that American skaters should never have to pay for travel when skaters around the world do?

In general, I don't feel that it's a good thing in this world for opportunities to be limited to those who can pay, but we are talking about an entire sport that is massively limited to those who can pay. As are MANY things that teenagers do (usually at a much smaller level).
 
I'm just wondering how other skaters NOT getting to go would have improved things for this skater? ...

I have thoughts in response to this question.

The topic of USFS plans for self-funded international opportunities first came up in the U.S. Men thread, and the context was (emphasis added to direct quote of what marshallpond wrote [and then later deleted]):
"With a crowded field of Junior Men in the International Selection Pool (ISP) competing for the limited Junior Grand Prix (JGP) spots, every skater wants to stand out and get the attention of the powers that be. Recognizing the abundance of talent, a survey was conducted to gauge interest among the skaters in participating in an international competition, with the caveat that the expenses would be covered by the skaters, not the fed."​

So one concern of mine would be the following scenario:
USFS offered several skaters a self-funded opportunity to compete at International Event XYZ -- but Skater A was unable to accept. Later on, when USFS is making future decisions about USFS-funded assignments, I worry that Skater A potentially would be at a disadvantage compared to skaters who were able accept the self-funded international opportunity.
USFS would have no international result for Skater A to consider, whereas the other skaters would have international results from XYZ to their credit.
I see a risk that in the eyes of USFS, Skater A could "lose ground" compared to other U.S. skaters.​

In addition, it worries me that because of benefits such as those articulated below for skaters who are capable of self-funding, Skater A also would lose ground to other U.S. skaters:

For the US, the big advantage is that skaters who will never be given a GP/JGP and other fed-sponsored competitions now have a chance to get international competition experience. They get to build their international ranking, get more chances to get the minimum TES scores for the Worlds, and gain more international exposure—which they will never be able to do if they wait for the fed-sponsored competitions.
 
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I'm assuming if a coach has skaters competing in Nice, their coaching rate will be much higher than $1,000 a week. In my daughter's club, there are a couple of coaches with skaters who compete internationally. Their coaching rate for international competitions is $800 & $1000 A DAY!
 
It seems to me to be a damned if you do, because you're buying into it,/damned if you don't scenario, especially when you can be considered "uncooperative' and "unworthy" of support if you turn it down.
 
I have thoughts in response to this question.

The topic of USFS plans for self-funded international opportunities first came up in the U.S. Men thread, and the context was (emphasis added to direct quote of what marshallpond wrote [and then later deleted]):
"With a crowded field of Junior Men in the International Selection Pool (ISP) competing for the limited Junior Grand Prix (JGP) spots, every skater wants to stand out and get the attention of the powers that be. Recognizing the abundance of talent, a survey was conducted to gauge interest among the skaters in participating in an international competition, with the caveat that the expenses would be covered by the skaters, not the fed."​

So one concern of mine would be the following scenario:
USFS offered several skaters a self-funded opportunity to compete at International Event XYZ -- but Skater A was unable to accept. Later on, when USFS is making future decisions about USFS-funded assignments, I worry that Skater A potentially would be at a disadvantage compared to skaters who were able accept the self-funded international opportunity.​
USFS would have no international result for Skater A to consider, whereas the other skaters would have international results from XYZ to their credit.​
I see a risk that in the eyes of USFS, Skater A could "lose ground" compared to other U.S. skaters.​

In addition, it worries me that because of benefits such as those articulated below for skaters who are capable of self-funding, Skater A also would lose ground to other U.S. skaters:


I have thoughts in response to this question.

The topic of USFS plans for self-funded international opportunities first came up in the U.S. Men thread, and the context was (emphasis added to direct quote of what marshallpond wrote [and then later deleted]):
"With a crowded field of Junior Men in the International Selection Pool (ISP) competing for the limited Junior Grand Prix (JGP) spots, every skater wants to stand out and get the attention of the powers that be. Recognizing the abundance of talent, a survey was conducted to gauge interest among the skaters in participating in an international competition, with the caveat that the expenses would be covered by the skaters, not the fed."​

So one concern of mine would be the following scenario:
USFS offered several skaters a self-funded opportunity to compete at International Event XYZ -- but Skater A was unable to accept. Later on, when USFS is making future decisions about USFS-funded assignments, I worry that Skater A potentially would be at a disadvantage compared to skaters who were able accept the self-funded international opportunity.​
USFS would have no international result for Skater A to consider, whereas the other skaters would have international results from XYZ to their credit.​
I see a risk that in the eyes of USFS, Skater A could "lose ground" compared to other U.S. skaters.​

In addition, it worries me that because of benefits such as those articulated below for skaters who are capable of self-funding, Skater A also would lose ground to other U.S. skaters:

the skater who had to turned down Tayside had this fear that if he turned it down this time, Usfsa might not offer again. But, it was just not financially feasible.
 
the skater who had to turned down Tayside had this fear that if he turned it down this time, Usfsa might not offer again. But, it was just not financially feasible.
If the money’s not there, it’s not there and the skater’s family made a sensible choice.

Looking at past USFS decisions, I doubt USFS will weigh these Jr. B results particularly highly. Looking at some past assignment selections from women, Lee got chosen for Jr. Worlds without any amazing international results because of her strong nationals performance. Higase-Chen had won a jr. B (Budapest) and junior nationals, but that was weighted less in the selection committee’s choice than senior nationals. This year, Cleo Park got chosen for a JGP because of her Milwaukee Cup results later fortified by NQS results. Not going to the Cranberry Jr. B (not sure if she was invited there) didn’t eliminate her chances for a bigger international assignment selection. I do think Nemirovsky’s result at Cranberry springboarded her on to the JGP, but it goes to show that there’s several different routes to an international assignment.

If a skater can’t self-fund internationally, then they need to make the most of Nationals and Junior Cup. That’s their route to USFS-paid international assignments.
 

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