Canadian figure skating

pat c · Jan 14, 2024

skatingguy said:
The CBC can't afford it, CTV (BellMedia), and Rogers don't want it. Also, last year's streaming number were better than the TV numbers so Skate Canada so the decision was made to go streaming only.

I know, but but.........

Mell · Jan 14, 2024

pat c said:
It's a combination of things, but there are other sports that are stealing potential skaters because of cost, availability of good coaching, and time. Now that there is a pro women's hockey league, the drain is going to really show up in Canada. Bottom line, figure skating is expensive, high performance coaching is not readily available w/o moving somewhere. Same old with new twists. Also, the 2 recognizable women athletes in Canada right now is Hayley Wickenheiser and Christine Sinclair. Not skaters? hmm.

Ironically, the "inclusion" propaganda is killing sports where women could shine

coppertop1 · Jan 14, 2024

pat c said:
It's a combination of things, but there are other sports that are stealing potential skaters because of cost, availability of good coaching, and time. Now that there is a pro women's hockey league, the drain is going to really show up in Canada. Bottom line, figure skating is expensive, high performance coaching is not readily available w/o moving somewhere. Same old with new twists. Also, the 2 recognizable women athletes in Canada right now is Hayley Wickenheiser and Christine Sinclair. Not skaters? hmm.

Hockey will always be popular in Canada and soccer is much more accessible.

Judy said:
But just because we don’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t happening either. It is a big commitment too for entering into that level.

My neighbour’s 8 year old girl is playing on an all boys team (non-competitive). She was named player of the week in Dec. I kinda love that lol.

Awesome for her!

Mell said:
Ironically, the "inclusion" propaganda is killing sports where women could shine

This is 2024, not 1960.

jlai · Jan 14, 2024

Private Citizen said:
Considering that the technical level of the sport has evolved, I don't think this was much better. No one on the men's podium landed a clean triple axel or quad in the free. No one on the women's podium managed a clean triple-triple in the free.

The sport seems to be in crisis, in large part due to mismanagement and poor strategy. I hope someone with a vision can step up. This is sad to see in a figure skating nation that used to be world leading at both competitive and commercial strategy. Gone are the days when Canadian skaters showed up with COP-maximized programs, had plenty of well-thought-out international assignments, and audiences were always packed. Now it seems like nobody cares.

The Canadians had many good years in men and ice dance and some good years in women and pairs (Rochette and Osmond days). It is only reasonable that Canada is bound for a slump. Considering Canada’s history in women (no world medals for years until Rochette) the women are having neither a great or super bad year. Remember Jennifer Robinson?

They also had a slump after Stojko until Buttle and Chan came along.
They will bounce back in a few

tony · Jan 14, 2024

jlai said:
The Canadians had many good years in men and ice dance and some good years in women and pairs (Rochette and Osmond days). It is only reasonable that Canada is bound for a slump. Considering Canada’s history in women (no world medals for years until Rochette) the women are having neither a great or super bad year. Remember Jennifer Robinson?

Yes, I remember Robinson. But she was in the top 10 at Worlds three of those times (2000, 2002, 2003) and single-handedly helped give other Canadian women the opportunity to also compete until Rochette took over. As much as her skating is frowned upon, she was really skating well in 2002. Schizas has yet to finish in the top 10 at Worlds, coming close but not yet getting there.

jlai said:
They also had a slump after Stojko until Buttle and Chan came along.
They will bounce back in a few

There was no slump after Stojko in terms of potentially dropping off the map like is happening right now with the Canadian men. Buttle was already in the top 10 at 2002 Worlds, the very next competition after Stojko's retirement. Sandhu was also always in the picture during that time and capable of his own big bombs, but he was already ahead of Stojko in 2001.

Skate Canada has been wildly mismanaged for many years. There were such staunch supporters here during and after Covid, even when I kept saying there were big problems behind the scenes and (top) athletes were getting frustrated. David Wilson did an interview that said more of the same, and I think maybe even some skaters eventually voiced their concerns. I know the Federation went through a bunch of big changes, but I don't doubt that this lull is in big part because of said issues.

caseyedwards · Jan 14, 2024

tony said:
But you often don’t even need a go-between or a $200 whatever was mentioned above. Smart TV and a smartphone or fully-functioning laptop (or even iPad)? You’re good.

Again, most parents with kids you refer to have now LONG-moved away from network television or even having a cable subscription at all. It’s all streaming and especially social media these days, even for younger kids.

I think too many people keep giving emphasis on something that has been dead for a long time. I know not every person has moved on, but it’s like still catering to people who prefer the VCR at this point.

Lol!!! Why can’t I get killers of a flower moon on VHS?!?!!

Colonel Green · Jan 14, 2024

tony said:
David Wilson did an interview that said more of the same

Wilson's complaints amounted to that the federation should have been trying to ignore pandemic protocols more when holding events.

tony · Jan 14, 2024

Colonel Green said:
Wilson's complaints amounted to that the federation should have been trying to ignore pandemic protocols more when holding events.

To an extent, but not solely. I believe you were one of the supporters, siding with Ted Barton's words or whoever it was that said a virtual event would take months and months and months of planning, for example.

But Wilson also brought this up:

When asked if Skate Canada needed new leadership going forward, Wilson’s blunt reply left little doubt about his feelings on the matter.

“Yes, yes and yes, across the board,” Wilson remarked. “Our president lives in Europe! Our president doesn’t even live within our own country! These people, who are in charge at this point, have shown zero ingenuity, zero leadership. It’s disgraceful.

He was mad about the lack of Nationals (and the lack of plan B with it), and I'm not trying to circle back to that time frame for the purpose of a big back-and-forth, but so many people here were claiming that the skaters didn't want to skate and didn't want to be put at risk to go to Worlds that year. Until they said that they did, almost uniformly out in the open.

kwanfan1818 · Jan 14, 2024

Regardless of management/mismanagement over the years, Canadian Men did everything from respectably to World and Olympic podiums for a long time.

I think it's an issue when four of your top young prospects -- Sadovsky, Nadeau, Gogolev, and Orzel -- out of a small batch to begin with grow so tall and have collectively sustained so many injuries as single skaters that your "next up" list is so thin with such little senior experience overall. Only one went to Pairs, and, good for him, went pro very quickly.

ETA: Even Circelli, who is no longer skating for Canada, is listed as 6", just like Orzel. He was a loss to Ice Dance, sadly.

jlai · Jan 14, 2024

I think that’s it. Right now the slim and short is the favored physique and they don’t have enough talented skaters with that physique

skatingguy · Jan 14, 2024

caseyedwards said:
Lol!!! Why can’t I get killers of a flower moon on VHS?!?!!

You can.

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geoskate · Jan 14, 2024

Wyliefan said:
The commentators did very well. Kaitlyn and Kirsten in particular hit a nice balance between praise and critique and were able to offer the viewpoint of recent participants. I'd happily listen to them again.

I agree. I was very pleasantly surprised by how well they did. They both were excellent at providing the technical analysis for programs right after the program was skated, too. Kirsten, in particular, had clearly done a huge amount of homework, and could explain how levels were derived clearly and immediately. Kaitlyn Weaver was also very good at explaining the marking for ice dance.

Aaron MB Fan · Jan 14, 2024

tony said:
Yes, I remember Robinson. But she was in the top 10 at Worlds three of those times (2000, 2002, 2003) and single-handedly helped give other Canadian women the opportunity to also compete until Rochette took over. As much as her skating is frowned upon, she was really skating well in 2002. Schizas has yet to finish in the top 10 at Worlds, coming close but not yet getting there.

THIS. I am so tired of all the negativity in this forum directed at Jennifer Robinson whenever reflecting back on Canadian ladies. Of course, Jennifer had her faults, as do pretty much all skaters in some form or another, and in Jennifer's case she was very slow. I also didn't love that she was thrown into the spotlight early with her surprise defeat of Chouinard at Nationals the year Chouinard won the Champions Series Final. I would have preferred for Chouinard to go to Worlds given her overall form that year.

However, as Tony mentioned, Jennifer saved Canadian women's skating and not just kept it alive, but actually in quite good hands all things considered. She was consistently a Top 10 skater, and the derogatory term people use at times for her in "Top 10 Jen" I would say is actually a huge compliment when you consider Canadian women's skating history. We've had unbelievable stars over the years like Scott, Burka, Magnussen, Manley, Rochette and Osmond. However, those are far and few between. Most years Canadian women struggled to make the Top 10, a feat Maddie has yet to accomplish though I do believe it is within her capability with improvements. We had years with no Canadian women qualifying for the Olympics or winning the title with only Salchows and Toes.

Robinson finished 7th at the 2002 Olympics. This is nothing to snooze at when every skater who finished ahead of her was an eventual World Championship medallist (Hughes, Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Suguri, Butyrskaya). She even finished 2nd in her Qualifying Group at the 2003 World Championships qualifying. These are huge accomplishments in comparison to essentially every other Canadian women's skater in history who did not medal at a World Championships. End rant.

overedge · Jan 14, 2024

jlai said:
I think that’s it. Right now the slim and short is the favored physique and they don’t have enough talented skaters with that physique

Physique isn't a judging criterion. What the skaters do with whatever physique they have is what's judged.

The issue with the bodies of the current Canadian men is that they're (apparently) growing faster than they're able to adjust their technique. Injuries don't help either.

jlai · Jan 14, 2024

I'm not dissing Jennifer (sorry if I sound like I was), but the thing is it took Jennifer a good while after skating as a senior before getting top ten at worlds. Give Schizas a couple more years before thinking that this is worse.

Canada usually has just one good lady and they tend to have slumps while fixing/reworking stuff (Joannie had a small slump while working on her lutz; Osmond had a few years to get all 5 types of triples in her program). I don't know if which route Schizas will go. Her career is still ongoing and her record is neither great nor very bad for a 4th or 5th year senior lady (not comparing Schiza's 'worse' years with good years from past ladies with 10 years of careers)

honey · Jan 14, 2024

I agree with Tony that the lack of broadcast tv is not the fundamental problem. Especially not for the reason that parents won’t see it and won’t put their kids in the sport. Most people of the age with young kids probably don’t have cable anymore.

I see a bigger issue in how they have gone about streaming. I know there are issues with YouTube and copyright, but someone is much more likely to a stumble upon a skating live stream on YouTube than they are on daily motion or even on CBC gem. The only people watching now are the ones actively looking for it. Not enough is being done to showcase their skaters on platforms where someone might see it organically.

In the Jennifer Robinson discussion, let’s also not forget that she only became a top 10 skater after MANY years. She spent a lot of years not being that. It feels a bit right now like we’re in the 95-99 ladies era. Robinson skated at worlds 8 times and made top 10 at 3 of those competitions. And it took her until her 4th try to do so. I say that with no disrespect. She really did carry the program for a few years in the early 2000s, but she was given the time to develop into that kind of skater.

kwanfan1818 · Jan 14, 2024

They are growing tall enough, though, that they very little margin for error, even with great technique.

When Gogolev was a junior and landing quads, Orser had a very prescribed plan to keep him healthy, but even the best conceived, responsible plans don't always work out.

I was thinking that Aleksandr Selevko looked more mature with more muscle than in the past, and he seemed to be skating with more oomph. But he's listed at 174cm, 9cm shorter than Orzel and Circelli, or 5"8.5, which isn't tiny, but is still within range. And he, at 22, has stopped growing. (I also just learned from Wikipedia that his parents were Ukranian immigrants to Estonia.)

jlai · Jan 14, 2024

I agree. Canadian ladies seem to need time to develop as a senior. They tend not to be the ones who shot to top five quickly.

her grace · Jan 14, 2024

Schizas’ skate in the Olympic event was a real highlight—ice in her veins.

Of course, she’s got refinements to work on, but she’s a respectable competitor. The men’s side is more worrisome because none of them seem to have a head for competition.

Janef · Jan 14, 2024

I read through some of the comments. It is difficult to pinpoint. Streaming is great but it doesn’t interview or do segments on the people. Some of their stories etc. I thought the commentary was good very professional etc. The production is what is lacking.(cost $$$). That is what a tv network can bring. The lighting promotion. The extra. Too bad the weather was so cold for the people to go to the event.

overedge · Jan 14, 2024

honey said:
I see a bigger issue in how they have gone about streaming. I know there are issues with YouTube and copyright, but someone is much more likely to a stumble upon a skating live stream on YouTube than they are on daily motion or even on CBC gem. The only people watching now are the ones actively looking for it. Not enough is being done to showcase their skaters on platforms where someone might see it organically.

I totally agree.

Right now there are two videos of Anthony's LP on YouTube. Both of them have been posted by fans. Maybe there are some copyright issues with CBC hosting the streaming, but SC is missing out on a great social media opportunity by not having that program (or any of the great performances from this past week) up on YouTube right now.

eusebius · Jan 14, 2024

Here’s my uneducated pov for what it’s worth. I teach piano and have a small studio of kids and teenagers here in Hamilton. In the past 5 years or so I have had at least 4 students who have been doing figure skating, mostly at Hamilton FSC. (For a very brief period I had a student who is now in the top 10 in junior ladies in Canada.)

What I see happening with figure skating is pretty much the same thing that is happening with piano. These kids are enrolled in like 5 or 6 extracurriculars of which piano is just one. I have a provincial level synchro swimmer, I’ve had a lot of soccer players, I’ve got one provincial volleyball player. When I was a kid I just did piano and violin. My friends also mostly concentrated on one or two things. These kids are doing a bunch of things and so they are out every night. Result? They practice like 10 minutes a day if I’m lucky.

I think kids are doing figure skating but they are not willing to sacrifice their whole adolescence for it. Even my top 10 junior had temporarily quit because she was sick of getting up at 4 am every day and I couldn’t blame her.

kwanfan1818 · Jan 14, 2024

Janef said:
Streaming is great but it doesn’t interview or do segments on the people.

One of the best things about the ISU streaming JGP were the interviews. I still remember one Ted Barton did with Deniss Vasiljevs that made him a favorite beyond his skating, he was such a lovely and gracious young man. There's no reason that live and recorded interviews can't be ~~screened~~ streamed.

eusebius said:
think kids are doing figure skating but they are not willing to sacrifice their whole adolescence for it.

Unless you are being pushed by a parent, I think that skating is like ballet: if you stick with it, you either are in love with it from the get-go, even if it's from seeing the costumes and tiaras, and that takes over your world regardless of the sacrifieces, or you take it for the technique, but at some point decide you like it better than hockey or modern dance or whatever it was supposed to help you with.

Also, if kids narrow it down to two things out of all of the things they try, at some point, they generally have to choose between the two, because both require a huge commitment of time and, most often, money. (Because even those group sports usually involve camps and workshops and traveling leagues at some point if you get good/elite enough, which are $$$.)

Habs · Jan 14, 2024

eusebius said:
What I see happening with figure skating is pretty much the same thing that is happening with piano. These kids are enrolled in like 5 or 6 extracurriculars of which piano is just one. I have a provincial level synchro swimmer, I’ve had a lot of soccer players, I’ve got one provincial volleyball player. When I was a kid I just did piano and violin. My friends also mostly concentrated on one or two things. These kids are doing a bunch of things and so they are out every night. Result? They practice like 10 minutes a day if I’m lucky.

I think kids are doing figure skating but they are not willing to sacrifice their whole adolescence for it. Even my top 10 junior had temporarily quit because she was sick of getting up at 4 am every day and I couldn’t blame her.

I think this is key and I’m glad you said it. It’s much more common for kids to try out a variety of sports/extracurriculars than it is to devote themselves to one thing to become elite.
It’s also less about becoming an elite athlete/champion for these kids and more about trying new things and having fun. And shouldn’t that be more important?

overedge · Jan 15, 2024

I can't remember if this was a Canadian skater, but a while ago I read an interview with a skater who also played a musical instrument. They said that their mom wanted them to be well-rounded so they had to do one activity if they wanted to do the other.

I don't think this attitude is as pervasive in the US as it is in Canada, but IMO this parental mindset that kids have to do a lot of things and do them all at a high level also has to change.

ice coverage · Jan 15, 2024

overedge said:
.... SC is missing out on a great social media opportunity by not having that program (or any of the great performances from this past week) up on YouTube right now.

Starting on Jan 10, Skate Canada's own YouTube channel has posted 2024 Nats videos of free programs of all junior and senior champions.

(If I am not supposed to put these video links in GSD, I hope someone will let me know.)

Terry Yu Tao Jin