Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[Bigbird]

Russia loses its Olympic team gold.

They lost it last year. This will just make it official. They had a year or so of pretense.

 

[Bigbird]

Right, but are they not going to send their entire team "just in case" someone gets caught? It's not sending her that was arrogant. It was doping and thinking no athlete would ever get caught that was the arrogant part.

They almost got away with it. Just one test, one positive did the damage that they'll never undo.

 

[Karen-W]

The ISU has egg on its face after favouring Eteri for so long

They joined WADA and the IOC in appealing RUSADA's initial 1-day suspension of Valieva during the Games last year, so it doesn't surprise me they are also appealing the full RUSADA decision now.

If anyone has egg on their face, it's the IOC, because they turned a mostly blind eye to the doping shenanigans from Russia for far too long.

 

[coppertop1]

They joined WADA and the IOC in appealing RUSADA's initial 1-day suspension of Valieva during the Games last year, so it doesn't surprise me they are also appealing the full RUSADA decision now.

If anyone has egg on their face, it's the IOC, because they turned a mostly blind eye to the doping shenanigans from Russia for far too long.

The IOC definitely has the most egg on its face. This is mostly on them and the fact that they are even considering letting Russia compete in Paris is sickening. I do think the ISU does have some culpability by rewarding Eteri's system for so much and enabling her.

 

[VGThuy]

One day, there will be a reckoning in this sport that requires such difficult and specialized athletic skill, but calls for young pre-pubescent athletes to gain those skills as early as possible and to compete internationally and deal with all the pressure and expectations that come with it.

Let's face it, for many of these sports that relied on young athletes amazing us in the 20th century, it relied on exploitation of poverty and promises of state-sponsored "wealth" in retirement. As for the West, it was still kind of true, except the wealth came from corporate sponsorship and was much less guaranteed...and also parents not really understanding the long-term tolls it would have on their children and the glamorization of "glory".

Now that I'm a parent, I'm starting to wonder if we should have children under 17 or whatever compete at all on such elite levels, given the psychological and physical tolls that we know how, and what we know about brain development and decision-making cognitive abilities of humans before the age of 25 (not saying that should be the cut-off date but there are levels and degrees that other industries and circles are seriously discussing...like when it comes to legal liability and criminal mens rea).

And before people point to American sports like football, basketball, etc. These things are being discussed in those circles, especially in American football with the rise of understanding when it comes to concussions and physical harm. The exploitation angle has always been a discussion point, most famously in the film Hoop Dreams and many other follow-up programs and discussions. The NBA was smart enough to make changes but people will always study these things and look for better avenues. The NCAA is increasingly coming under fire and people are more and more questioning the collegiate sport pipeline, though not nearly enough to overtake the huge amount of fanfare and fandom around many of these sports.

And no, I'm not ignoring the fact that even if you take away elite competition, there will be people training cheerleading and football and basketball, and many other sports and children will still be exploited and those methods and the training it takes to become an adult elite athlete still means that children will have a high rate of probability when it comes to lifelong, chronic injuries that will happen with, but that doesn't mean we just sit on our hands and do nothing. And just because we don't have the "right" answer yet doesn't mean we don't do anything or keep looking into the issue as well.

 

[layman]

One day, there will be a reckoning in this sport that requires such difficult and specialized athletic skill, but calls for young pre-pubescent athletes to gain those skills as early as possible and to compete internationally and deal with all the pressure and expectations that come with it.

Let's face it, for many of these sports that relied on young athletes amazing us in the 20th century, it relied on exploitation of poverty and promises of state-sponsored "wealth" in retirement. As for the West, it was still kind of true, except the wealth came from corporate sponsorship and was much less guaranteed...and also parents not really understanding the long-term tolls it would have on their children and the glamorization of "glory".

Now that I'm a parent, I'm starting to wonder if we should have children under 17 or whatever compete at all on such elite levels, given the psychological and physical tolls that we know how, and what we know about brain development and decision-making cognitive abilities of humans before the age of 25 (not saying that should be the cut-off date but there are levels and degrees that other industries and circles are seriously discussing...like when it comes to legal liability and criminal mens rea).

And before people point to American sports like football, basketball, etc. These things are being discussed in those circles, especially in American football with the rise of understanding when it comes to concussions and physical harm. The exploitation angle has always been a discussion point, most famously in the film Hoop Dreams and many other follow-up programs and discussions. The NBA was smart enough to make changes but people will always study these things and look for better avenues. The NCAA is increasingly coming under fire and people are more and more questioning the collegiate sport pipeline, though not nearly enough to overtake the huge amount of fanfare and fandom around many of these sports.

And no, I'm not ignoring the fact that even if you take away elite competition, there will be people training cheerleading and football and basketball, and many other sports and children will still be exploited and those methods and the training it takes to become an adult elite athlete still means that children will have a high rate of probability when it comes to lifelong, chronic injuries that will happen with, but that doesn't mean we just sit on our hands and do nothing. And just because we don't have the "right" answer yet doesn't mean we don't do anything or keep looking into the issue as well.

You make some great points. Should the age limit for participating in Senior level figure skating be raised to 25?

 

[VGThuy]

You make some great points. Should the age limit for participating in Senior level figure skating be raised to 25?

Regarding that question, it almost sounds rhetorical, right? I bet almost 100% of people will say no. All I know is that none of us are probably qualified to answer this question substantively and it will require more scientific consensus balanced against the interest (aka participation and revenue) and long-term survival of various sports. I do know that as much as I enjoy figure skating now, if it ever disappeared because it is THAT dependent on the labor and bodies of prepubescent children to drum up interest, then I'll be OK with it being gone, and that's saying a lot considering how much figure skating has meant to me. But I'm an adult now and I can live without it if it means this sport has to have trauma and exploitation and abuse.

 

[layman]

Regarding that question, it almost sounds rhetorical, right? I bet almost 100% of people will say no. All I know is that none of us are probably qualified to answer this question substantively and it will require more scientific consensus balanced against the interest (aka participation and revenue) and long-term survival of various sports. I do know that as much as I enjoy figure skating now, if it ever disappeared because it is THAT dependent on the labor and bodies of prepubescent children to drum up interest, then I'll be OK with it being gone, and that's saying a lot considering how much figure skating has meant to me. But I'm an adult now and I can live without it if it means this sport has to have trauma and exploitation and abuse.

No...not rhetorical...I really want to know if this (raising the age limit to 25) will protect minors from the kinds of abuses and exploitation that we have seen.

 

[tony]

No...not rhetorical...I really want to know if this (raising the age limit to 25) will protect minors from the kinds of abuses and exploitation that we have seen.

Then you have a few things going on. First of all, are you saying that athletes should not learn their sport and start working on their skills until they are 18 or some other adult age, for example? It's a lot to ask to get most athletes into top competitive shape in such a short amount of time, and in skating, there's often a very obvious 'started as an adult' quality to the basic skating if they did start late-- and pretty much forget learning triples. Bodies also start to break down quickly, so 'starting' a career at 25 where most have already moved on (and not only because of injury, but because of wanting to do something else in life before they think it's tool late) isn't really feasible IMO.

If they aren't starting at 18 or later, then they are still working on their skills, with coach(es) and possibly over-involved parents. This is why I question the logic of many when they say moving the age up to 17 for seniors is going to avoid a lot of injuries at a younger age, etc. Skaters are not going to turn 17 and suddenly start working on the toughest elements in hopes that they will suddenly get them. They will be building up to that point and trying to win events on an already very-competitive junior scene.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I do think that we need to question the concept of higher, faster, stronger at some point. The increase in difficulty is not worth the toll on the human body and we just have to learn to live without record setting all the time. The sport is at where it's at.

 

[Willin]

No...not rhetorical...I really want to know if this (raising the age limit to 25) will protect minors from the kinds of abuses and exploitation that we have seen.

It definitely won't. All it means is that that same abuse will happen with less spotlight.

I do support the age limit, but I also recognize crazy stage parents are in it for the long haul - college sports in the US is the perfect example. You can't compete in college sports until 18, and yet parents/coaches start the crazy training as young as 3-4 to make sure they're competitive and ready for that level of competition. There's articles and documentaries on how crazy the training is for some of the NCAA hopefuls.

 

[On My Own]

Now that I'm a parent, I'm starting to wonder if we should have children under 17 or whatever compete at all on such elite levels, given the psychological and physical tolls that we know how, and what we know about brain development and decision-making cognitive abilities of humans before the age of 25 (not saying that should be the cut-off date but there are levels and degrees that other industries and circles are seriously discussing...like when it comes to legal liability and criminal mens rea).

I think you can't really stop children from doing what they want. The issue for me is more that their efforts are made for mass consumption for most endeavours now (a big reason for me to avoid all those kid competitive reality TV shows). Sports at least is still okay and understandable.

And helicopter parents can't really be fixed by the way. They've always existed, and try as we might, we can't eliminate them from anything. And we like it or not, they've pushed some children to show their best in many fields.

 

[VGThuy]

I think you can't really stop children from doing what they want. The issue for me is more that their efforts are made for mass consumption for most endeavours now (a big reason for me to avoid all those kid competitive reality TV shows). Sports at least is still okay and understandable.

Speaking of mass consumption, I always thought it was strange how highly publicized and how much press was involved when high school seniors who play football announce their college of choice. It’s just… it raises a lot of red flags to me and the symbolism of it all is just… yeah.

 

[On My Own]

Speaking of mass consumption, I always thought it was strange how highly publicized and how much press was involved with these high school seniors announce their college of choice. It’s just… it raises a lot of red flags to me and the symbolism of it all is just… yeah.

LOL. Yeah, the US takes it to a different extent with things like those, where everything is capitalized. I do think THAT needs to be criticized, no matter how much some "want" to see it and the rest can "just ignore". But I am not sure controlling children is possible, and while abusive parents should be punished, helicopter ones can't really be, unless we want to pry into everyone's lives.

 

[layman]

I can't help thinking now that if an age limit of 25 (for participation in senior level figure skating) had been in place for the last Olympic Games, then Valieva would never have been given drugs.

If that limit had been in place then she would not be eligible to compete in 2022, 2026 or 2030 but would be eligible in 2034 (really shows how youth dominant the sport is now). I am fine with an age limit of 25. If it protects just one child from what Valieva went through, then I am all for it.

 

[On My Own]

I can't help thinking now that if an age limit of 25 (for participation in senior level figure skating) had been in place for the last Olympic Games, then Valieva would never have been given drugs.

OTOH, maybe she would have taken drugs on her own.

I am in support of the age limit just so the athlete themselves can no longer have "protected status". Whichever age they lose it, I want that. The rest, well, we can wring our hands, but there's always something. Idiot teen. Abusive coach. Asshat parent. Can't help it.

 

[MacMadame]

And helicopter parents can't really be fixed by the way. They've always existed, and try as we might, we can't eliminate them from anything. And we like it or not, they've pushed some children to show their best in many fields.

The rest, well, we can wring our hands, but there's always something. Idiot teen. Abusive coach. Asshat parent. Can't help it.

We can make all of these things better even if we can't fix them 100%. Helicopter parents are a good example. They may have always existed but there are way more of them now. That's because of how society changed and how our notions of parenting changed. If they can change to produce more helicopter parents, they can change to produce less.

 

[PRlady]

One thing that can and should be done for a lot of reasons is lowering the insane cost of American colleges. And taking athletic accomplishment out of the admissions equation.

So many parents push their kids hard in sports to get an athletic scholarship and/or a leg up on admissions. I’m sorrier, in general, for the inner city and rural kids being hammered on the football field than for the generally more privileged skaters, although the abuse the latter too often suffer is no joke. But looking at how many formerly elite skaters are attending Ivy League schools, I have a sneaking suspicion that as hard as elite skating is, it is sometimes a means to an end.

 

[Karen-W]

OTOH, maybe she would have taken drugs on her own.

I am in support of the age limit just so the athlete themselves can no longer have "protected status". Whichever age they lose it, I want that. The rest, well, we can wring our hands, but there's always something. Idiot teen. Abusive coach. Asshat parent. Can't help it.

That's why the consequences need to be absolute. This baloney "she bore no fault of her own" for the drugs in her system excuse by RUSADA's Disciplinary Committee to only give her a 1-day suspension does NOTHING to deter an abusive coach or asshat parent or corrupt federation from doing the same thing again with a different athlete.

I'm just praying that CAS agrees and tells RUSADA and the ROC where they can shove it.

 

[hanca]

Then you have a few things going on. First of all, are you saying that athletes should not learn their sport and start working on their skills until they are 18 or some other adult age, for example? It's a lot to ask to get most athletes into top competitive shape in such a short amount of time, and in skating, there's often a very obvious 'started as an adult' quality to the basic skating if they did start late-- and pretty much forget learning triples. Bodies also start to break down quickly, so 'starting' a career at 25 where most have already moved on (and not only because of injury, but because of wanting to do something else in life before they think it's tool late) isn't really feasible IMO.

If they aren't starting at 18 or later, then they are still working on their skills, with coach(es) and possibly over-involved parents. This is why I question the logic of many when they say moving the age up to 17 for seniors is going to avoid a lot of injuries at a younger age, etc. Skaters are not going to turn 17 and suddenly start working on the toughest elements in hopes that they will suddenly get them. They will be building up to that point and trying to win events on an already very-competitive junior scene.

Also, how would it be reinforced that athletes would start only as adults, at 18? I can imagine many western countries may actually stick to this rule, but there would be rinks in China, Russia and some other countries where the skaters would still train since childhood and compete domestically- secretly or not at all, and at 18 they would suddenly come out and pretend to be ‘miraculous talents’ who ‘learned skating’ within a week or month… that rules would just make it easier for skaters from some countries to beat skaters from the countries that are willing to follow such a ridiculous rule. Would it mean that parents are not allowed to take their child skating on public sessions? Just in case that they get too good too young?

 

[On My Own]

And taking athletic accomplishment out of the admissions equation.

Why？Academic scholarships also exist, and parents can indeed push their children hard to obtain those, as well. I have no issue with sports scholarships existing. Not everyone is talented at academics, and it's not necessary to limit means of getting into colleges.

 

[DreamSkates]

Right, but are they not going to send their entire team "just in case" someone gets caught? It's not sending her that was arrogant. It was doping and thinking no athlete would ever get caught that was the arrogant part.

Raise your hand if you were surprised with the drug test result.

 

[DreamSkates]

I doubt they would have if they had known. Conversely, if they had known almost immediately, they would have nullified her Nationals result, not sent her to Euros, and put a ban in place that expired just in time for the Olympics. And who would have known since she was a protected person?

A lot of these posts act like Russia knew she had or would have tested positive…

How long has doping been going on with Russian athletes AND failed drug tests have proved the same? They have a long history of it. This last Olympics wasn’t the first time. That is why it is so upsetting and frustrating, for me and a “few” others. (Few in quotes because I haven’t taken count)

 

[Orm Irian]

Why？Academic scholarships also exist, and parents can indeed push their children hard to obtain those, as well. I have no issue with sports scholarships existing. Not everyone is talented at academics, and it's not necessary to limit means of getting into colleges.

You do realise that almost nowhere else in the world has an athletic scholarship program for university entrance similar to the US one, right? And yet people of all backgrounds still get into university. Here they don't even have to submit evidence of a million extracurricular activities and a manipulative personal essay - it's purely down to their Year 12 results. It would be a big change to your system, but US universities could get rid of them if they really wanted to.

As to Valieva and the matter of personal responsibility at age 15, as I think I've mentioned before, when the whole debacle was occurring Ashley Wagner noted that from the moment she started competing in Juniors at age 13, she was told that she was the person with ultimate responsibility for every single substance that went into her body and was expected to behave accordingly. If she was held personally responsible and expected to be responsible as a minor athlete, and every other minor athlete out there was too, then so must Valieva be. That's only just.

 

[VGThuy]

LOL. Yeah, the US takes it to a different extent with things like those, where everything is capitalized. I do think THAT needs to be criticized, no matter how much some "want" to see it and the rest can "just ignore". But I am not sure controlling children is possible, and while abusive parents should be punished, helicopter ones can't really be, unless we want to pry into everyone's lives.

I think this conversation won't be fruitful unless we stop thinking in "extremes" as in seeing alternatives as "controlling children" (I mean we already exercise legal control over children in so many ways) and with all the most extreme images that we can come up with.

 

[tony]

As to Valieva and the matter of personal responsibility at age 15, as I think I've mentioned before, when the whole debacle was occurring Ashley Wagner noted that from the moment she started competing in Juniors at age 13, she was told that she was the person with ultimate responsibility for every single substance that went into her body and was expected to behave accordingly. If she was held personally responsible and expected to be responsible as a minor athlete, and every other minor athlete out there was too, then so must Valieva be. That's only just.

But with Wagner, this may have been a USFS-based training or a circle around her training involving coaches or parents. I don't know what the ISU training is, if anything, aside from giving the adults a reference guide to banned substances. But seeing how the ISU lets judges back into the sport after suspensions and they don't even make them take further learning or judging assessments, I'm doubtful that the 13 and 14 year olds competing in the Junior Grand Prix are making the decisions on paperwork, as opposed to their families and coaches.

I'm not letting Kamila off the hook, especially as the ordeal turned into a "poor me" LP, but it's also quite possible that her nutritionist or people around her that she's been told to trust are the ones who started slipping something else into her daily vitamins or whatever else. You and I can't and don't know what each person's level of knowledge is if they don't all get equal training/resources.

 

[On My Own]

You do realise that almost nowhere else in the world has an athletic scholarship program for university entrance similar to the US one, right?

And? Every country does it differently. What is the issue with students in the US using extra-curricular activities like sports to build up their profiles?

Here they don't even have to submit evidence of a million extracurricular activities and a manipulative personal essay - it's purely down to their Year 12 results.

Would you say your universities are better than the US universities? Easy question to answer, I imagine.

Over here, you write entrance examinations that you take years to prepare for. I know I'd take the US method in a jiffy.

 

[On My Own]

I think this conversation won't be fruitful unless we stop thinking in "extremes" as in seeing alternatives as "controlling children" (I mean we already exercise legal control over children in so many ways) and with all the most extreme images that we can come up with.

I mean, then by this logic, I'd say that a Valieva scandal in itself is an extreme case. Eteri factory in itself is an extreme case - this isn't the norm in sports, is it? The "elite sport" you are talking about - being good enough to make it onto TV - in itself is extreme, because how many make it to that stage?

I don't think you can "control children" as in, you can't exactly tell a child younger than 17 "well you're extremely talented at skating, but I am not allowing you to show your talent off before you reach the age of 17. It doesn't matter if these opportunities exist and some of them will even fetch you money". That will ALSO cause psychological harm.

And I will again bring the academic example up - are you willing to tell someone very talented at science and mathematics olympiads to not put themselves through all the psychological torture and self-flagellating? I don't think so.

 

[VGThuy]

I mean, then by this logic, I'd say that a Valieva scandal in itself is an extreme case. Eteri factory in itself is an extreme case - this isn't the norm in sports, is it? The "elite sport" you are talking about - being good enough to make it onto TV - in itself is extreme, because how many make it to that stage?

I don't think you can "control children" as in, you can't exactly tell a child younger than 17 "well you're extremely talented at skating, but I am not allowing to show off your talent before you reach the age of 17. It doesn't matter if these opportunities exist and some of them will even fetch you money".

And I will again bring the academic example up - are you willing to tell someone very talented at science and mathematics olympiads to not put themselves through all the psychological torture and self-flagellating? I don't think so.

Speaking as someone who received multiple academic scholarships, inducing psychological torture and leaving minors to self-flagellate without help are far from the only ways to nurture and foster gifted children.

Regarding your other examples...speaking from a purely theoretical position, figure skating is only a sport because we recognize it as a sport and give it value. I'm sure there are all kinds of activities that we don't monetize and organize into sport that has all the fanfare and medals that Olympic sports have but nobody does them no matter how much talent kids may potentially have in them because they aren't monetized or organized into sports that have the fanfare and medals that Olympic sports have.

 

[On My Own]

Speaking as someone who received multiple academic scholarships, inducing psychological torture and leaving minors to self-flagellate without help are far from the only ways to nurture and foster gifted children.

Then you were lucky. You know full well there are many others who weren't. Much like there are many in sports who are lucky, many who aren't. Why focus only on those who weren't so lucky, and punish the rest?

Get my own reasoning now?