Meddling: New Documentary On Peacock about the 2002 Salt Lake Pairs Scandal

[allezfred]

Definitely not the way things were going. Ice dance was rigged.

Even so, the ethical thing to do would be disclose the information immediately to the event referee. Senft didn't do that. That is why she was censured by the ISU.

 

[Judy]

Even so, the ethical thing to do would be disclose the information immediately to the event referee. Senft didn't do that. That is why she was censured by the ISU.

 

[Judy]

Even so, the ethical thing to do would be disclose the information immediately to the event referee. Senft didn't do that. That is why she was censured by the ISU.

You seriously believe that there wasn’t much much worse going on that the ISU was ignoring. It def exploded on them at SLC.

 

[NAOTMAA]

And why didn’t she release the tape prior to competiton so something could be done to prevent the corruption from happening? Instead she went along with the plan and then released it when he didn’t follow through with it.

So basically the only reason she "blew the whistle" is because she didn't get the result she wanted and didn't win the politicking game? If Balkov did as they secretly agreed would she have said anything at all?

She doesn't sound honest or like a "hero" at all. She sounds as corrupt as the rest of them and like someone throwing a hissy fit

 

[~tapdancer~]

I know it's been 20 years but this series got me thinking about my own journey with love of figure skating. The 2002 Olympics scandal bothered me more than I realized. I barely followed skating after that from 2003 to 2007, I stayed on the fringes. I was interested to see how the CoP scoring was going to affect skating. Ice dance has always been my fave discipline and when V/M and D/W came on the scene in seniors in 2007, my love was rekindled.

I struggled to understand CoP but I could see that it was much better than ordinals. Finally skaters would be judged on the elements from a more objective pov. It has taken a while for IJS to evolve but overall I feel like it has helped. Yes, there is still evidence that judges are still subjective because GOE drives the scores so much. But it is nice to see that placements can change because that rarely happened before in ice dance. Unless obvious mistakes were made. For me, V/M and D/W were the spark that lit the fire again for my love of skating. With the streaming platforms of today, it is a joy to be able to see so many lower ranked skaters and full competitions. And even though I still struggle with understanding levels and GOE sometimes, it is so much better than the old system. Thank goodness change happened.

 

[Judy]

I know it's been 20 years but this series got me thinking about my own journey with love of figure skating. The 2002 Olympics scandal bothered me more than I realized. I barely followed skating after that from 2003 to 2007, I stayed on the fringes. I was interested to see how the CoP scoring was going to affect skating. Ice dance has always been my fave discipline and when V/M and D/W came on the scene in seniors in 2007, my love was rekindled.

I struggled to understand CoP but I could see that it was much better than ordinals. Finally skaters would be judged on the elements from a more objective pov. It has taken a while for IJS to evolve but overall I feel like it has helped. Yes, there is still evidence that judges are still subjective because GOE drives the scores so much. But it is nice to see that placements can change because that rarely happened before in ice dance. Unless obvious mistakes were made. For me, V/M and D/W were the spark that lit the fire again for my love of skating. With the streaming platforms of today, it is a joy to be able to see so many lower ranked skaters and full competitions. And even though I still struggle with understanding levels and GOE sometimes, it is so much better than the old system. Thank goodness change happened.

I agree. As much as people still complain and whine … North American media did expose a very ugly reality. The changes were very much needed. As much as it was tough sometimes to watch a fav lose that would otherwise have been held up …

Going years back … Scott Hamilton should never have won a gold medal at the Olympics. That is just one example though of what used to happen back then. ice dancing was not a credible sport back then. Now it def is.

 

[Japanfan]

I far prefer CoP to 6.0. I find it more interesting, and potentially more fair.

I remember the dance competition at Vancouver Worlds 2001 (sadly, the only Worlds I've ever attended). There was no movement in the standings all through the three phases of the competition. I was among those to leave the arena before the medal ceremony.

 

[Lemonade20]

I agree. As much as people still complain and whine … North American media did expose a very ugly reality. The changes were very much needed. As much as it was tough sometimes to watch a fav lose that would otherwise have been held up …

Going years back … Scott Hamilton should never have won a gold medal at the Olympics. That is just one example though of what used to happen back then. ice dancing was not a credible sport back then. Now it def is.

Really? I thought SH was deserving of that medal. I agree, the "new" judging system does make more sense going forward.

 

[allezfred]

The irony is that if CoP had been used in Salt Lake City Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze would have won more decisively. There is no comparison in the complexity of the programmes.

 

[kosjenka]

I would love to comment on the SLC details of the scandal but @TAHbKA told me that I become insanely annoying and get in the beating the dead horse mode when I ramble about this topic. I need to do less of that.

I do enjoy the documentary. Good job Tara Lipinski and hubby!

 

[Japanfan]

The irony is that if CoP had been used in Salt Lake City Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze would have won more decisively. There is no comparison in the complexity of the programmes.

Um, B/S did not win (regardless of how much one hates S/P or S specifically, which seems common on the board). Two gold medals were awarded and there were two winners, because a judge admitted to misconduct, invalidating the win granted to B/S at the end of the competition. And it was largely in part because of that scandal that CoP was implemented.

If CoP had been used in SLC, I am sure S/P would have had entirely different programs tailored to the new system. But the competition was judged under 6.0.

My biggest disappointment was that S/P brought back Love Story, which was inferior to Orchid - that was a masterpiece IMO. Love Story was wonderful, but lost some of that when brought for 2002 IMO.

It could have gone either way - and all the analyses I read of the competition (particularly Sandra Loosemore) said the same.

I checked out of my life for about three days after the competition, reading analyses. I'm sure there must have been plenty of on this board as well, but don't really remember it.

Fortunately, all of that reading gave me a great education about Pairs skating - I was relatively new to FS at the time. 2002 was the first Olympics where I watched the FS comps in their entirety.

 

[mackiecat]

The irony is that if CoP had been used in Salt Lake City Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze would have won more decisively. There is no comparison in the complexity of the programmes.

The fall at the end of the short would have buried S/P too. They would be behind the Chinese

 

[allezfred]

Um, B/S did not win (regardless of how much one hates S/P or S specifically, which seems common on the board). Two gold medals were awarded and there were two winners, because a judge admitted to misconduct, invalidating the win granted to B/S at the end of the competition.

If Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze have a gold medal, they won I think you'll find.

Much as some here might not like to admit, there was an argument for the Russians winning on the night. After all if you are going to say that you have to skate clean to win, then Sale/Pelletier should have not won 2001 Worlds. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Sylvia]

Tara Lipinski's posted this 2 days ago: https://www.instagram.com/p/CZAEWpRrZii/
"Episode 4 is out TODAY!! And I must say this is my favorite one out of all of them. Can’t wait for you guys to see it!

I’ve been a little MIA this week as it’s been crazy busy around here but I can’t wait to hear what you all thought of EP3 and EP4! Tell me, tell me!"

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[~tapdancer~]

If Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze have a gold medal, they won I think you'll find.

Much as some here might not like to admit, there was an argument for the Russians winning on the night. After all if you are going to sayA that you have to skate clean to win, then Sale/Pelletier should have not won 2001 Worlds. Can't have it both ways.

And you know, that's what I like about CoP. You don't have to "skate clean" to win. Yes, we hate when skaters fall, but CoP looks at every element and skating skills, etc. If you rack up points and then have a fall, you can still win. Which is as it should be, evaluating the skater or team as a whole. Just my opinion.

As for the 2002 Olympics, we can't apply CoP to their programs since that was then and this is now. But Sikharulidze's small error then would be not nearly as consequential now in the overall program. Falls and turnouts hurt your score but you can still win.

 

[Prancer]

Really? I thought SH was deserving of that medal.

Scott did not skate well at the Olympics, especially in the long program, and was second in both the short and long programs.

But he was first in figures and Brian Orser was seventh, which is why Brian Orser is not a gold medalist and Scott is.

 

[~tapdancer~]

Scott did not skate well at the Olympics, especially in the long program, and was second in both the short and long programs.

But he was first in figures and Brian Orser was seventh, which is why Brian Orser is not a gold medalist and Scott is.

For those of us who can remember it, figures were a big deal. Skaters who could nail figures did well. Many examples of how that played out through the years.

 

[Sylvia]

I haven't watched Meddling yet but I posted this last month in another thread:

Lipinski's recent post with preview clips of a floor dance that is supposed to represent when (from former U.S. singles & pair skater Jennifer Don in the comments - "Elena skating with abusive Oleg and Anton coming to see her in the hospital..."): https://www.instagram.com/p/CWlswISv7tk/

Filming was done in Moscow & St. Petersburg as well as in Strasbourg, France, and Katie McBeath/Nate Bartholomay filmed something for this doc. late one night in a Los Angeles area rink (eta that it was at Anaheim Ice - from her IG): https://www.instagram.com/p/CWTqy5YPeOy/

 

[Japanfan]

If Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze have a gold medal, they won I think you'll find.

Much as some here might not like to admit, there was an argument for the Russians winning on the night. After all if you are going to say that you have to skate clean to win, then Sale/Pelletier should have not won 2001 Worlds. Can't have it both ways.

I thought you meant that B/S won over S/P, apologies if I misunderstood.

Yes, there definitely was an argument for the Russians winning on the night. As I said previously, it could have gone either way.

And it's not always true that a skater has to skate clean to win. We've seen plenty of examples where a skater with a mistake or two beats a clean skater. At least CoP provides a context for that.

I'm not sure about the 2001 Worlds, I'd have to watch the competition again. IIRC Sale made a mistake on a jump (doubled a triple?) but it was at the far end of the rink, and some judges may have missed it?

In any case, it is not as if skaters from other countries haven't benefited from judges' subjective preferences or mistakes.

And wouldn't it be wonderful if Canada could produce a pair with the quality of S/P again? My apologies to MT/M. But S/P had the wow factor IMO. It's really a shame that both they and B/S retired after the scandal (there were bucks to be made in shows, for sure). Both pairs could have grown and given us more spectacular programs.

 

[Judy]

I thought you meant that B/S won over S/P, apologies if I misunderstood.

Yes, there definitely was an argument for the Russians winning on the night. As I said previously, it could have gone either way.

And it's not always true that a skater has to skate clean to win. We've seen plenty of example where a skater with a mistake or two beats a clean skater. At least CoP provides a context for that.

I'm not sure about the 2001 Worlds, I'd have to watch the competition again. IIRC Sale made a mistake on a jump (doubled a triple?) but it was at the far end of the rink, and some judges may have missed it?

In any case, it is not as if skaters from other countries haven't benefited from judges' subjective preferences or mistakes.

And wouldn't it be wonder if Canada could produce a pair with the quality of S/P again? My apologies to MT/M. But S/P had the wow factor IMO. It's really a shame that both they and B/S retired after the scandal (there were bucks to be made in shows, for sure). Both pairs could have grown and given us more spectacular programs.

Yes S&P skated together just a few years competitively.

 

[nickp]

Best documentary I’ve ever seen

 

[allezfred]

Best documentary I’ve ever seen

I think that is a bit excessive.

I finished watching it last night. There was lots of footage I hadn't seen before so that was interesting. There were a few things that grated. The trying to make Moskvina out to be some mastermind behind the whole thing. The constant referring to the audience reaction as proof the result was wrong - as if skating competitions should be decided by a public vote. Scott Hamilton. Sandra Bezic. Jean Senft and her spy pen being held up as some kind of moral authority.

 

[kosjenka]

ok, I was banned from discussing SLC but Nagano is a free topic.

LOL at the Canadians medaling in the ice dance over the French or any of the top 2 Russians.

I would sooner argue that Krylova should have at the very least, positioned in 1st in CD and overall!

Riverdance over Rome and Juliete! Please!!!

 

[Andora]

Riverdance over Rome and Juliete! Please!!!

I don't disagree, but that's exactly what happened in the FD portion of the event.

R&J was the ONLY good FD that year of the top 5. Good Lord. K&O, G&P and B&K wasted their best work in 1997.

 

[allezfred]

I'm not sure about the 2001 Worlds, I'd have to watch the competition again. IIRC Sale made a mistake on a jump (doubled a triple?) but it was at the far end of the rink, and some judges may have missed it?

Sale fell in the short programme and finished third ahead of reigning World champions Petrova/Tikhonov who were clean. Sale/Pelletier needed to finish Top 3 in the short to have a chance of gold.

https://youtu.be/NFWZ9pvCPsE?t=170

Sale singled an Axel in the free skating.

https://youtu.be/i7YzRpWpYyI?t=213

 

[escaflowne9282]

I don't disagree, but that's exactly what happened in the FD portion of the event.

R&J was the ONLY good FD that year of the top 5. Good Lord. K&O, G&P and B&K wasted their best work in 1997.

Content Warning-Off Topic


Shoot. I loved G&P's Memorial. I thought it was so much better than their previous OGM winning FD in 1994. For me, that's a case where their best work came the year before. I absolutely loved their 1993 St. James Infirmary FD . They felt every note of music down to their fingertips and had an incredible organic level of chemistry.
1994 just didn't hit the mark for me , it seemed very forced and busy and the taste ,for was questionable. They were without a doubt the rightful winners in 1994, but it feels like because of the program choice vis a vis T&D and how things were perceived by armchair commentators, they never got their due. I wish they had kept St. James for 1994.

 

[Andora]

Content Warning-Off Topic


Shoot. I loved G&P's Memorial. I thought it was so much better than their previous OGM winning FD in 1994. For me, that's a case where their best work came the year before. I absolutely loved their 1993 St. James Infirmary FD . They felt every note of music down to their fingertips and had an incredible organic level of chemistry.
1994 just didn't hit the mark for me , it seemed very forced and busy and the taste ,for was questionable. They were without a doubt the rightful winners in 1994, but it feels like because of the program choice vis a vis T&D and how things were perceived by armchair commentators, they never got their due. I wish they had kept St. James for 1994.

I definitely agree Memorial was better than their Rock & Roll medley in 1994. But The Feeling Begins is better than Memorial. St. James Infirmary was better than all of them, artistically.

And then I wish we could have collective amnesia for G&P's 1995 & 1996 FD's. Because damn.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

Even so, the ethical thing to do would be disclose the information immediately to the event referee. Senft didn't do that. That is why she was censured by the ISU.

Exactly, and even if there was corruption in the ISU she could say "I have the recording, and if you don't act on it now, I will release it to the press." Either way she should have acted on it before the event, not after.

And it looks bad when she was the only one who judged partly in the way Balkov told her (French 5th in the FD, Averbuhk 4th in FD over them, which was ridiculous), including Balkov himself.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

Sale fell in the short programme and finished third ahead of reigning World champions Petrova/Tikhonov who were clean. Sale/Pelletier needed to finish Top 3 in the short to have a chance of gold.

https://youtu.be/NFWZ9pvCPsE?t=170

Sale singled an Axel in the free skating.

https://youtu.be/i7YzRpWpYyI?t=213

Jamie's win at the 2001 worlds was a farce and she should have retired from skating out of sheer shame right after that event (or refused the gold). It was a far bigger travesty than any so called controversy at the 2002 Olympics. S&P blew all their jumps in both programs and still somehow beat a clean B&S. The corruption and propaganda was so high for for S&P at the time though nobody said anything of course and they arrogantly accepted their ill gotten golds at 2001 worlds.

 

[Yuri]

Tumbochki (“Тумбочки”) are literally small side tables, as in bedroom sets or next to sofas. So, as slang, it could mean something small, wooden, inconsequential…my guess. DH would know if there’s a cruder meaning but he’s in Russia, where it’s the middle of the night…too late for WhatsApp.

Did Elena call Sale/Pelletier "tumbochki" (Episode 2) or am I mishearing things. If she did, I'm dying. They certainly didn't want to translate that in the subtitles ...."I didn't enjoy the Canadians"

According to Dave Lease on the latest TSL episode which opens with an hour-plus discussion of Meddling, that's precisely what Elena said and literally what Тумбочки means: two bedside tables. And yes, Dave hints there's another meaning that would be a nasty insult...which makes me wonder whether he picked up this on his own or is merely repeating what was said on FSU!

I don't watch TSL often and there's a lot of stream of consciousness discussion of the ice dancing situation from 1998 to 2002 which they agree is the true judging scandal of prearranged results, and that the 2002 pairs scandal is merely a part of the long-term problems with the judging in ice dancing under the 6.0 system. Interesting perspective and quite possibly true.

TSL episode link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdb3U8ENQ3U&t=914s