Was Mark Mitchell robbed?

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Also Meno & Sand in 1998. And Kwan in 2006 although she ended up withdrawing in time for the substitute to skate after all.

However, the rules for Olympic selections had been written to allow for International Committee discretion to consider criteria other than Nationals results before they made that officially the case for assigning skaters to Worlds -- for legal reasons to avoid Nationals being considered an official Olympic qualifier. I don't remember exactly when that changed, but at least a decade before 2018.

In a press call after the 2006 US Nationals when Michelle was named to the Torino Olympic Team, Kwan was asked if she'd consider skating at Four Continents prior to the games to give her programs some crucial extra mileage.

As a demonstration of how skaters sometimes exist in their own bubble her answer was, "What's Four Continents?"

 

[her grace]

On to the specific years:

• 1992 - I think this was a really close decision that could have gone either way and the judging between Paul and Mark reflected that. It was a 5-4 decision between the two and I can see arguments for both. I don't think he was "robbed" but just on the wrong end of something that could have gone either way. I am surprised at how clearly Bowman won, as I think you could argue for him to be as low as third and it would have made sense to have mixed ordinals between the top 3.

I rewatched 1992 and also think there wasn't a clear order to what the results should be. It was fascinating listening to Button talk about how responsible Bowman was being by not doing a 3A; quite a contrast to the fearlessness we see now with skaters adding as much technical content as they can. I don't think Bowman was the runaway winner, but he did seem to have the most command and presence on the ice. Comparing Wylie and Mitchell, I think that Wylie created the better overall "artistic impression", and I think Mitchell had the stronger technical performance. Could have gone either way, and Bowman should have been in that mixed ordinal bag, too.

• As to whether Mark should have been sent over Todd in 1992, as much as I didn't care for Todd's skating then, the international judges clearly felt differently than me. Todd had been told by his doctor that he would be ready in two weeks and I can see why the selection committee wanted to bet on the reigning bronze medallist.

Hindsight being 2020, Eldredge should have been pulled. But from the rumored reports that Eldredge didn't skate well in his test skate, I think USFS knew enough to pull him ahead of time. This is where I see Mitchell really having been robbed.

Another situation where Nationals results were not followed happened only the year before, in 2017, when Jason Brown was selected for Worlds over Vincent Zhou. Now, Zhou didn't have the World minimums at the time of nationals, but he was named as the first alternate and was sent to Bavarian Open to get the World minimums. Given that, I think it's pretty clear that Brown was selected because of Body of Work, not just because Zhou didn't have the minimums, or else Zhou would not have been named an alternate.

That's another part of the reasoning for Miner getting the axe instead of Zhou. Are you really going to dump a skater two years in a row, who, by their placement, would qualify for the team?

USFS also deviated from nationals results for 4CC assignments in pairs in 2017 and in selecting alternates for the World team for pairs. And there was also the Ricky Dornbush 4CC alternate situation in 2012.

And look how well that turned out.

 

[VGThuy]

To be fair to USFS, the pairs alternate decisions didn't affect what happened at 2017 Worlds. I still thought it was pretty crappy and showed blatant favoritism though. I mean I know one team that ultimately "benefitted" in that decision got credit for getting us get two spots back at a subsequent Worlds, but honestly, the Worlds they did that in was a lot easier than 2017 Worlds where so many teams existed and so many teams were bunched up together to get that magic LP qualification spot. And the pairs at 2017 Worlds did qualify two pairs...for Worlds. They had the number for the Olympics but the quota rules resulted in one spot for Pyeongchang.

 

[her grace]

To be fair to USFS, the pairs alternate decisions didn't affect what happened at 2017 Worlds.

I was referring more to the 4CC Dornbush situation. He gets gifted 4CC after bombing nationals, goes on to bomb 4CC and finishes 12th behind skaters like Chris Caluza. Getting gifted didn't really seem to help him.

But as for the pairs, so far, USFS' shenanigans have mostly resulted in teams breaking up. Of all the disciplines, USFS has used its "discretion" a lot in this discipline, and have the results improved? No. But a lot of teams have quit. And why would you stick around if even beating the fed faves gets you literally nothing (not even 4CC in some cases).

 

[VGThuy]

I was referring more to the 4CC Dornbush situation. He gets gifted 4CC after bombing nationals, goes on to bomb 4CC and finishes 12th behind skaters like Chris Caluza. Getting gifted didn't really seem to help him.

But as for the pairs, so far, USFS' shenanigans have mostly resulted in teams breaking up. Of all the disciplines, USFS has used its "discretion" a lot in this discipline, and have the results improved? No. But a lot of teams have quit. And why would you stick around if even beating the fed faves gets you literally nothing (not even 4CC in some cases).

Oh! Dornbush is so not on my radar that I didn't think you were talking about him haha.

As for pairs, I agree with you. That's why I get weirded out when some posters think the USFS should have a heavier hand with their pairs and suggest or force teams to break up and form partnerships themselves. Talk about scary.

 

[Erin]

That does NOT speak for me.

I’m very sorry. I think the enthusiasm of one person in particular left the impression that we all enjoyed it, but correction noted.

 

[nylynnr]

The selection committee was pretty much between a rock and a hard place in 1992. If I remember correctly there was the sentiment that Eldredge was the skater who had "earned" the three spots with his bronze medal at '91 worlds, and I think Callahan had more pull than Ronna Gladstone. (A story sprung up that Eldredge re-injured his back either on the way to Albertville, or at Albertville, but I don't know if that is accurate.) Certainly Evy Scotvold held sway. To make the team that night, fair or not, Mitchell would have had to land both his triple axel (which he did) and his triple-triple (which he did not). I think he knew this, because he was disappointed right after his free.

I would say, yes, Mitchell was robbed, if you simply went with the performances at '92 nationals, especially since in those days a clean triple axel meant so much. If you add in all of the other factors at that time in 6.0 judging, it's more debatable. There's no question Wylie was a far more dynamic performer and, again if I remember correctly, he was great in practices that week. Obviously the committee was conflicted, because it named Mitchell to the world team.

None of this changes the fact that Mitchell should have finished in top 2 at '92 nationals. But prior to the "BOW" selection criteria, judges sometimes made certain the results matched the choices for the Olympic team. The best example of this is the pairs event in '94.

 

[SpeedySucks]

The selection committee was pretty much between a rock and a hard place in 1992. If I remember correctly there was the sentiment that Eldredge was the skater who had "earned" the three spots with his bronze medal at '91 worlds, and I think Callahan had more pull than Ronna Gladstone. (A story sprung up that Eldredge re-injured his back either on the way to Albertville, or at Albertville, but I don't know if that is accurate.) Certainly Evy Scotvold held sway. To make the team that night, fair or not, Mitchell would have had to land both his triple axel (which he did) and his triple-triple (which he did not). I think he knew this, because he was disappointed right after his free.

I would say, yes, Mitchell was robbed, if you simply went with the performances at '92 nationals, especially since in those days a clean triple axel meant so much. If you add in all of the other factors at that time in 6.0 judging, it's more debatable. There's no question Wylie was a far more dynamic performer and, again if I remember correctly, he was great in practices that week. Obviously the committee was conflicted, because it named Mitchell to the world team.

None of this changes the fact that Mitchell should have finished in top 2 at '92 nationals. But prior to the "BOW" selection criteria, judges sometimes made certain the results matched the choices for the Olympic team. The best example of this is the pairs event in '94.

Maybe I’m misremembering, but didn’t Paul say he only wanted Olympics in 92 anyway and that he wasn’t interested in going to Worlds? I had always thought that he planned for Albertville to be his last competition.

I will never understand the decision to send Courtland & Reynolds in 1994. Even though ABC only showed the top 3, there’s no way that Kuchiki & Marval or someone else behind them didn’t skate better than the side-by-side ass slides of Courtland & Reynolds.

 

[nylynnr]

I rewatched 1992 and also think there wasn't a clear order to what the results should be. It was fascinating listening to Button talk about how responsible Bowman was being by not doing a 3A; quite a contrast to the fearlessness we see now with skaters adding as much technical content as they can. I don't think Bowman was the runaway winner, but he did seem to have the most command and presence on the ice. Comparing Wylie and Mitchell, I think that Wylie created the better overall "artistic impression", and I think Mitchell had the stronger technical performance. Could have gone either way, and Bowman should have been in that mixed ordinal bag, too.

I remember it differently. Button appeared to very much disapprove of Bowman not including a triple axel, repeatedly saying in a rather mournful tone, "This program is certainly conservative" and adding that although Bowman would not have marks deducted due to this admission, the axel "would have been nice to see." (He also emphasized Bowman was the only top skater without a triple axel, not really true since Barna didn't have one.) After Mitchell skated, IIRC, Button said something to the effect of, "He did a triple axel, which means something in this competition." I think Button thought Bowman should have tried it.

But you're right, Bowman won in large part because he skated clean, which mattered a lot more then, than it does now. He also did a clean triple-triple, which Mitchell and Wylie did not. (Wylie didn't do a clean combination in his Olympic FS, which is why I think it's correct Petrenko won, but that's another thread.)

 

[nylynnr]

Maybe I’m misremembering, but didn’t Paul say he only wanted Olympics in 92 anyway and that he wasn’t interested in going to Worlds? I had always thought that he planned for Albertville to be his last competition.

I don't remember any public announcement like that, beyond Wylie saying it was his final nationals because he wanted to go to law school. Scotvold may have made that point with the selection committee, though. And whether after winning silver in Albertville, Wylie would have actually gone to worlds, I don't know. IMG may well have advised him to skip it.

I just think Mitchell was up against it in '92. There was so much ABC material about Wylie being a Harvard grad, going on to law school, and that played well. Mitchell had a female coach, less powerful than Callahan and Scotvold, which didn't play well at the time. He wasn't a charismatic skater, compared to Bowman and Wylie. I really think to make the team, he needed to skate clean, and he didn't.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

First, the USFSA almost never went against national results for Olympic selections. There were what, two instances due to injuries (1992 and 1994) and one instance in 2014 due to body of work? There was not much reason for me (or some others who talked to me) to think that a second-place finisher would not be selected when three spots were available. Second, Ross Miner was not bringing home world medals, but he was not a nobody. He wasn't an untested rookie, he wasn't someone who somehow milked the system but didn't have athletic or artistic qualities; he was a good skater. Third, there is the issue of pressure. When someone (Ross) is spectacular in a big moment and someone (Adam) is not even that good in a pressure cooker, it's hard to see why the latter should move on to a bigger stage instead of the former. I have liked many of both Ross and Adam's programs, and I was not really willing either one onto or off of the Olympic team, but I do remember thinking it through and being a bit surprised and certainly disappointed that Ross' second-place finish didn't get him onto a team of three. For Mark, who experienced many nationals of selections being almost always cut and dry, it must have been hurtful.

I guess I don't really buy the argument that USFSA almost never went against national results for Olympic selection as a reason this was shocking. In the lead up to 2014, USFSA was very, very vocal about the fact that they were going to be using body of work along with nationals results to determine the Olympic team. They made it quite clear going into that year that the game had changed and that they were no longer going to do what they had historically done. Going into 2014, I personally had the conversation with multiple people where we agreed that probably meant that they'd go with nationals results for men and pairs, for the women, Ashley Wagner, a two time GPF medalist, was safe, and in dance, no one thought the results would deviate, but if they did, Davis and White were clearly safe. Honestly if the 2014 results had happened 4 years later, I think it would have been Polina who was off the team with no body of work vs. Mirai and Ashley, but USFSA does like young skaters and maybe that was a little bold for the first time.

So the number of Olympic selections that had been made with the emphasis on BOW going into 2018 was 1 and the number of years they had used body of work to deviate from nationals results going into 2018 was 1. There was every reason to believe it would be done again and that the history of what they had done before 2014 was not relevant because they themselves were very clear that they were changing the criteria. Not to mention they'd just used the changed criteria for worlds the year before to send Nathan and Jason and that choice paid off for them, earning them 3 spots for the olympics by the skin of their teeth.

Going into 2018, Adam Rippon was a two time GPF qualifier and had medaled at all of his GP events over the last two years. He'd also been 6th and 8th in the world at their previous two appearances. They were fighting pretty hard for a bronze medal in the team event and they weren't expecting Nathan Chen to skate both portions. They needed a second guy on that team. Had Jason Brown been on the team, they might have felt comfortable leaving Rippon at home since Brown had qualified for the GP final as well and medaled at two GP events over the last two years, but having the option of Zhou, who hadn't proven himself in his one year at the senior level and Miner, who'd shown VERY inconsistent results over the prior four years (he'd have made a better argument in 2014, honestly), wasn't a good look for them. I think it was pretty clear that the first spot went to Nathan Chen, the second to Adam Rippon, and the argument for the 3rd spot was between Ross Miner and Vincent Zhou. Ross finished one place above Vincent at Nationals in 2014 and had won a GP medal the prior season. Vincent finished 2nd to Ross's 5th at the preceding nationals and was the reigning Jr. World Champion.

 

[nylynnr]

Going into 2018, Adam Rippon was a two time GPF qualifier and had medaled at all of his GP events over the last two years. He'd also been 6th and 8th in the world at their previous two appearances. They were fighting pretty hard for a bronze medal in the team event and they weren't expecting Nathan Chen to skate both portions. They needed a second guy on that team. Had Jason Brown been on the team, they might have felt comfortable leaving Rippon at home since Brown had qualified for the GP final as well and medaled at two GP events over the last two years, but having the option of Zhou, who hadn't proven himself in his one year at the senior level and Miner, who'd shown VERY inconsistent results over the prior four years (he'd have made a better argument in 2014, honestly), wasn't a good look for them. I think it was pretty clear that the first spot went to Nathan Chen, the second to Adam Rippon, and the argument for the 3rd spot was between Ross Miner and Vincent Zhou. Ross finished one place above Vincent at Nationals in 2014 and had won a GP medal the prior season. Vincent finished 2nd to Ross's 5th at the preceding nationals and was the reigning Jr. World Champion.

This is spot on. I don't know how anyone could argue Miner should have been on the '18 Olympic team, especially considering the team event. Countries need to put their strongest skaters on the team, the "third spot" is no longer fungible. Miner had quite possibly the worst performance from a U.S. man at a Grand Prix, that I have ever seen, at 2016 Skate Canada, and his performances at other international events at the end of his career weren't much better. Peter Johansson really lost his patience with Miner at events, saying things like, "He was prepared, he didn't do it, don't know why."

 

[tony]

While I don't disagree with any of the arguments presented as to why Rippon obviously had the better BOW, the 'we need a second man on the team event' is a weak one IMO, and it's thanks to the ISU STILL not making the weight of the LP worth more. Adam finished a narrow 3rd out of 5, and earned 8 points when the minimum was 6. Also, it was known that if Japan was going to make the final five, they wouldn't be in medal contention because of dance/pairs, and they'd throw their 3rd best male skater into the field so that Hanyu and Uno could prepare for the individual event, and Rizzo, who was not yet established really, was also there.

Any (other than Chen) American skater named to the team event was probably going to slot into 3rd or maybe 4th on a bad day in the LP. Or maybe better if Chan had an implosion, but that tended to be more of an SP thing by that time.

The SP is the big event and the one where countries can distance themselves from others (ask Kolyada). But someone who just narrowly scraped their way onto an Olympic team with multiple athletes was not likely to get the assignment in the SP.

 

[nylynnr]

While I don't disagree with any of the arguments presented as to why Rippon obviously had the better BOW, the 'we need a second man on the team event' is a weak one IMO, and it's thanks to the ISU STILL not making the weight of the LP worth more. Adam finished a narrow 3rd out of 5, and earned 8 points when the minimum was 6. Also, it was known that if Japan was going to make the final five, they wouldn't be in medal contention because of dance/pairs, and they'd throw their 3rd best male skater into the field so that Hanyu and Uno could prepare for the individual event, and Rizzo, who was not yet established really, was also there.

Any (other than Chen) American skater named to the team event was probably going to slot into 3rd or maybe 4th on a bad day in the LP. Or maybe better if Chan had an implosion, but that tended to be more of an SP thing by that time.

The SP is the big event and the one where countries can distance themselves from others (ask Kolyada). But someone who just narrowly scraped their way onto an Olympic team with multiple athletes was not likely to get the assignment in the SP.

How many times, in big events, have skaters come up sick or injured, unable to skate their best? Or, in recent years, suddenly developed the dreaded "boot problems"? Regardless of the format and weighting of the free skate in the team event -- which I agree needs to change -- in 2018 I would rather have Rippon or Zhou backing up Chen, than Miner. Belt and suspenders.

 

[VGThuy]

I think it's only a weak argument this time around because the US was far from Russia in the Team Event thanks to Nathan Chen's skate. However, had the US lost the silver by one point (if Nathan won the Mens SP portion and the other Americans placed the same way as they did in real life) or even won by one point (if Nathan won the Mens SP portion and Adam pulled off a win over Kolyada in the LP which he almost did), that second Mens spot in the Team Event LP becomes way more important. As we learned, even one point or so can make a difference. One thing I learned after years of watching Marta Karyoli create teams is you never take anything for granted and EVERY LITTLE BIT counts. Even if the D-score difference or D-score gap is only closed by a little. Competitions are won by such things.

I agree though that I think the ISU needs to fix the LP placement scores for the team event. Make it worth more so it means more.

 

[Erin]

(Wylie didn't do a clean combination in his Olympic FS, which is why I think it's correct Petrenko won, but that's another thread.)

Watching three of Wylie’s free skates from Nationals all in a row, it really struck me how bad he was at combinations. The only clean one he landed in all three of those free skates was a triple toe-double toe in 1990. He managed to get out of the Zayak rule by doing his triple lutz in sequence each year, and in 1991 that was the closest thing he had to a combination in his free. Perhaps that explains why he struggled so much with the short program in that time period.

Another consequence of watching all of that is I have various pieces of Paul’s music from that time period stuck in my head for the past three days.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

While I don't disagree with any of the arguments presented as to why Rippon obviously had the better BOW, the 'we need a second man on the team event' is a weak one IMO, and it's thanks to the ISU STILL not making the weight of the LP worth more. Adam finished a narrow 3rd out of 5, and earned 8 points when the minimum was 6. Also, it was known that if Japan was going to make the final five, they wouldn't be in medal contention because of dance/pairs, and they'd throw their 3rd best male skater into the field so that Hanyu and Uno could prepare for the individual event, and Rizzo, who was not yet established really, was also there.

Any (other than Chen) American skater named to the team event was probably going to slot into 3rd or maybe 4th on a bad day in the LP. Or maybe better if Chan had an implosion, but that tended to be more of an SP thing by that time.

The SP is the big event and the one where countries can distance themselves from others (ask Kolyada). But someone who just narrowly scraped their way onto an Olympic team with multiple athletes was not likely to get the assignment in the SP.

Which is fine unless someone skates like Ross Miner at 2016 NHK and finishes 5th. Yes, we ended up with a decent gap in both directions, but why on earth would you gamble on not needing those two points? If you bet you don't need them and you're wrong, you look like an idiot.

I think it's only a weak argument this time around because the US was far from Russia in the Team Event thanks to Nathan Chen's skate. However, had the US lost the silver by one point (if Nathan won the Mens SP portion and the other Americans placed the same way as they did in real life) or even won by one point (if Nathan won the Mens SP portion and Adam pulled off a win over Kolyada in the LP which he almost did), that second Mens spot in the Team Event LP becomes way more important. As we learned, even one point or so can make a difference. One thing I learned after years of watching Marta Karyoli create teams is you never take anything for granted and EVERY LITTLE BIT counts. Even if the D-score difference or D-score gap is only closed by a little. Competitions are won by such things.

I agree though that I think the ISU needs to fix the LP placement scores for the team event. Make it worth more so it means more.

Bradie also could have beaten Sotoko in the SP for one extra point (she lost by literally .01), which is another scenario where Nathan winning the SP would have put us in a close fight for silver. Or the Knierems could have also bombed the SP and we could have been in a close fight for bronze and needed the two points we got from Rippon skating well in the LP.

I agree, the LP should be higher stakes, but it's only hindsight that lets us say those two points didn't matter. They easily could have. There's a reason Canada only made one swap for the free programs. A lot of people would say it was unfair to Weaver and Poje that they didn't get to compete because they at most would have lost Canada 1-2 points and Canada didn't need those 1-2 points. But there's no way to know you don't need them until you don't.

 

[VGThuy]

Exactly. With V/M competing both, they essentially had two guaranteed first place finishes. Canada really understood maximizing points for the team competition. If in some alternate universe it ended up being really close against Russia and they were one point apart, what if swapping out WeaPo led to WeaPo finishing not only behind the Shibs but Bob/Sol? And what if Bob/Sol and the Shibs swapped places so now Canada is two points down from Bob/Sol in ice dance?

 

[tony]

I actually feel a bit opposite regarding the team event. I think the US was fairly confident they would be medalists, as were Canada and Russia (but those two as most realistically fighting for gold), and they had a bit of freedom to name a team that would be comprised of skaters that earned their keep. It started to get tense with Italy and Johnny was even caught on air either going to commercial or coming back from commercial somewhat panicking, trying to figure out what the numbers all meant and how close Italy could/would be at one point. I'm sure Johnny had the same sentiments as most of USFS at that point, but it ended up not being that close. I'm not saying that the USFS was being too confident, but I think we all felt it was a CAN/RUS and then USA race.

Also, if you're going to throw out a bunch of hypotheticals, you can't say.. 'Well if Chen had won the short' but then disregard the point that Kolyada was the one who bombed most in the very same segment. If the USFS was looking for the strongest possible team, they could've asked Chen to skate both portions and used the same methodology that Canada did. JMO. Chan, Kolyada, and Rizzo all skated both portions and 3 of the 5 pairs did as well, sometimes because they were the only options. If anything, I think either of Chock/Bates or Hubbell/Donohue could've also been argued as a more deserving swap.

Anyways, I'm somewhat happy Canada's top athletes all retired after 2018, because it opened the door to maybe have more of a race in 2022 as far as the medalists go. Of course, the ISU should've had a 10-8-6-4-2 point system in place starting with 2014 and I've argued as much since then, but they still see no need to do anything about it.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Also, if you're going to throw out a bunch of hypotheticals, you can't say.. 'Well if Chen had won the short' but then disregard the point that Kolyada was the one who bombed most in the very same segment.

Of course you can? It's not like Chen bombing caused Kolyada to bomb or vice-versa. Many things are possible, some of which end up in a tight competition and others of which end up in a much less competative competition. No one is claiming the result where Chen won and Kolyada bombed is what USFSA was predicting or counting on. It's simply one of the many scenarios that could have happened and would have resulted in a situation where Adam's two points would have been the difference between Silver and Bronze. Such scenarios are possible and you can't assume they're not when picking your team.

 

[nylynnr]

I actually feel a bit opposite regarding the team event. I think the US was fairly confident they would be medalists, as were Canada and Russia (but those two as most realistically fighting for gold), and they had a bit of freedom to name a team that would be comprised of skaters that earned their keep. It started to get tense with Italy and Johnny was even caught on air either going to commercial or coming back from commercial somewhat panicking, trying to figure out what the numbers all meant and how close Italy could/would be at one point. I'm sure Johnny had the same sentiments as most of USFS at that point, but it ended up not being that close. I'm not saying that the USFS was being too confident, but I think we all felt it was a CAN/RUS and then USA race.

Also, if you're going to throw out a bunch of hypotheticals, you can't say.. 'Well if Chen had won the short' but then disregard the point that Kolyada was the one who bombed most in the very same segment. If the USFS was looking for the strongest possible team, they could've asked Chen to skate both portions and used the same methodology that Canada did. JMO. Chan, Kolyada, and Rizzo all skated both portions and 3 of the 5 pairs did as well, sometimes because they were the only options. If anything, I think either of Chock/Bates or Hubbell/Donohue could've also been argued as a more deserving swap.

Anyways, I'm somewhat happy Canada's top athletes all retired after 2018, because it opened the door to maybe have more of a race in 2022 as far as the medalists go. Of course, the ISU should've had a 10-8-6-4-2 point system in place starting with 2014 and I've argued as much since then, but they still see no need to do anything about it.

Well, how do we know Chen's team didn't tell USFS Chen didn't want to skate both segments? As I understand it, the top-ranked skater/team in each discipline was asked if they would prefer to share the event, or to compete both the SP and FS. Two swaps were made; obviously, the Knierims were "it" for both the short and free, and needed to come through with a good short. Not winning bronze would have been a tremendous embarrassment for Team USA ... There are just too many variables in the team event, not to name your strongest possible competitors to the Olympic team.

 

[tony]

Well, how do we know Chen's team didn't tell USFS Chen didn't want to skate both segments? As I understand it, the top-ranked skater/team in each discipline was asked if they would prefer to share the event, or to compete both the SP and FS. Two swaps were made; obviously, the Knierims were "it" for both the short and free, and needed to come through with a good short. Not winning bronze would have been a tremendous embarrassment for Team USA ... There are just too many variables in the team event, not to name your strongest possible competitors to the Olympic team.

Chen's team (which remember, was also Rippon's team....) could've easily said that, no doubt. That's obviously what Hanyu and Uno decided for the LP, knowing they weren't in contention for a medal anyways. But again, if you're talking about 'strongest possible competitors', then Chen would've done both segments. All three of the US dance teams were scoring within a point of each other at the GPF and Nationals, anyways, and the Shibutanis did not win the FD at Nats nor did they win the overall title.

 

[her grace]

I remember it differently. Button appeared to very much disapprove of Bowman not including a triple axel, repeatedly saying in a rather mournful tone, "This program is certainly conservative" and adding that although Bowman would not have marks deducted due to this admission, the axel "would have been nice to see." (He also emphasized Bowman was the only top skater without a triple axel, not really true since Barna didn't have one.) After Mitchell skated, IIRC, Button said something to the effect of, "He did a triple axel, which means something in this competition." I think Button thought Bowman should have tried it.

I see your perspective, too. In light of the fluff piece immediately preceding Bowman's program where he was portrayed as a wild child, I thought Button's "conservative" remarks were positive. I suppose they could also have been damning with faint praise. I did notice Button saying "He did a triple axel, which means something in this competition" about Mitchell. But spoiler alert, it did not.

 

[VGThuy]

My hypotheticals were pretty much based on what actually happened. I don't agree it's such a weak argument to consider the Team Event upon making your selections. I think the USFS knew Chen would not want to do both segments and wanting to balance having the strongest team AND making sure your gold medal contender for the individual Mens event feels great going into the individual competition, then they had to consider the second man. I just take issue with the idea that one or two points make no difference when it certainly can and it's stupid for anyone making up a team to maximize points to excuse 1-2 points like that. They're not doing their job and will end up losing more competitions needlessly.

I'm confident had Jason Brown placed second at Nationals, they would have felt comfortable taking 1, 2, and 3 and left out Zhou and Rippon. But since Brown placed outside the top 4, it left Miner, Zhou, and Rippon battling for two spots with Rippon having the best BOW and Zhou already losing a Worlds spot last season when he placed second at Nationals and going on and winning Junior Worlds and was attempting one of the most technically ambitious jumping layouts. I have no doubt the team even was part of the consideration. It wasn't the sole consideration, but one of many important ones (and part of THAT convo was probably who they wanted to give an Olympic medal to if the USFS was so sure they were going to win a medal anyway).

Maybe the USFS would have swapped ice dance but decided it was more important to preserve the energy of the singles discipline. Bradie missed out on a higher placement by 0.01 while Mirai over-achieved in the LP. So the question became which ice dance team to use...And as a Shibs uber who's been CAREFULLY watching the scores that whole Olympic cycle, it's clear the Shibs were still the strongest team, if slightly, and one you can bank the most on for the team competition if they were going to do a Mens swap due to Chen's wishes and a ladies swap to preserve Bradie or allow Mirai a chance to win a medal or whatever. They were consistently the top scoring ice dance team for three seasons by that point, and Chock/Bates and Hubbell/Donohue were notorious for falling under the pressure and making mistakes if you watched them all season for years and which is what happened in the FD at Pyeongchang.

 

[nylynnr]

Chen's team (which remember, was also Rippon's team....) could've easily said that, no doubt. That's obviously what Hanyu and Uno decided for the LP, knowing they weren't in contention for a medal anyways. But again, if you're talking about 'strongest possible competitors', then Chen would've done both segments. All three of the US dance teams were scoring within a point of each other at the GPF and Nationals, anyways, and the Shibutanis did not win the FD at Nats nor did they win the overall title.

It's safe to say I know who coached Rippon. Just my opinion, but I think Chen was feeling the pressure and was not enthusiastic about the team event, short or long program. Plus, judging by the bitching and moaning during the men's short, no one except Bychenko was happy to be skating at the early hour. Maybe he had stayed up all night.

And all three of the U.S. dance teams would likely not have scored within a point of each other; Chock was keeping her injury relatively quiet, but she and Bates were probably not as healthy as the other two teams. .... In any event, the Shibs were the top-ranked team internationally at the time.

Again, naming your strongest skaters to the Olympic team, in terms of a few seasons of BOW, gives federations more choices and maneuverability. You're not always going to get your top man to compete both programs -- certainly, back in '14 Chan wasn't willing to do so -- and you need the best possible back-up.

 

[VGThuy]

I wonder if the team event shouldn’t be moved to the end of the Olympics. That may give the feds a better idea of who to use or not AND maybe we’ll see more skaters willing to do both. I do think with time though, the team event will grow in importance. I just think it’ll behoove the ISU to change the scoring a bit and maybe actually have it at Worlds once in a while to normalize it.

 

[tony]

It's safe to say I know who coached Rippon. Just my opinion, but I think Chen was feeling the pressure and was not enthusiastic about the team event, short or long program. Plus, judging by the bitching and moaning during the men's short, no one except Bychenko was happy to be skating at the early hour. Maybe he had stayed up all night.

And all three of the U.S. dance teams would likely not have scored within a point of each other; Chock was keeping her injury relatively quiet, but she and Bates were probably not as healthy as the other two teams. .... In any event, the Shibs were the top-ranked team internationally at the time.

Again, naming your strongest skaters to the Olympic team, in terms of a few seasons of BOW, gives federations more choices and maneuverability. You're not always going to get your top man to compete both programs -- certainly, back in '14 Chan wasn't willing to do so -- and you need the best possible back-up.

So what you and others are essentially saying is that Rippon was named in big part under the belief that Chen wouldn't want to do both events as opposed to actually filling the roster with the strongest possibilities across the board as you've pointed out Canada did, and @VGThuy also mentioned the possibility of the USFS considering who they most would want to give the medal to in the event that they did fulfill the expectation of being on the podium again- which is exactly what I suggested to begin with. I wouldn't be surprised if Rafael even suggested the split so that both could get a (likely) medal while giving Chen time to 'rest'.

This isn't to make an argument, but you're here pointing out that the Shibutani's were clearly the best team internationally and giving hypotheticals about the two others teams, although it had been a tight three-way race in the two months prior to the Olympics as far as who was leading US dancing, and somehow a team that either A) won Nationals over them or B) came within one point of them overall in two competitions in a row somehow isn't as safe of a choice as selecting Adam, who had his own mini meltdown at Nationals, for the mens LP in terms of 'we definitely need the strongest overall team'. Duhamel/Radford, Chan to an extent, and even Kolyada could've been considered outside medal favorites, and the former actually did win a medal/had a small chance at competing for gold. They aren't doing 5-6 quad free skates, but they had a quad of their own and they competed closer together than the men did. I blame the ISU for that anyways, which goes into the next point.

I also think the team event should be moved to the end, and then we might not see so many skaters skipping it as they haven't been part of the big three the last two Olympic cycles. It makes no sense to try hard in the SP and then throw your reserves into the LP because there's zero shot at a medal, only to allow the favorites to distance themselves even more. Or, in the case of China last time, to not even attempt to get into the final five because they knew the medal chance was probably zero at that point. They really could've made it competitive with their top team all competing in the SP.

 

[nylynnr]

So what you and others are essentially saying is that Rippon was named in big part under the belief that Chen wouldn't want to do both events as opposed to actually filling the roster with the strongest possibilities across the board as you've pointed out Canada did, and @VGThuy also mentioned the possibility of the USFS considering who they most would want to give the medal to in the event that they did fulfill the expectation of being on the podium again- which is exactly what I suggested to begin with. I wouldn't be surprised if Rafael even suggested the split so that both could get a (likely) medal while giving Chen time to 'rest'.

Not at all. I think USFS wanted to fill the team roster with the strongest possibilities. I'm saying, naming the strongest possible competitors based on two years BOW puts federations in a better position to cope with top skaters like Chen, Chan etc. either deciding they do not want to do both short and long in the team event, or getting the flu, or damaging a boot, or any one of a myriad of other possibilities. I'm not saying that the selection committee, while sitting in Boston, knew definitively that Chen would beg out of the free skate.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I'm not saying that the selection committee, while sitting in Boston, knew definitively that Chen would beg out of the free skate.

If 2018 was run like 2014, the official 2014 USFS documents asked all Nationals participants to fill out a form declaring whether they were interested in skating the short, the free, both, or neither in the Team Event. I didn't see the 2018 documents -- the 2014 version was linked here -- so I don't know if this changed for 20198.

 

[mjb52]

I have this weird dislike of the team event because I prefer the focus being on the individual events and skaters focusing on peaking for those, but it does seem to mean something to (at least some of) the skaters. I like the idea of moving it to the end. I think it would bug me less if the individual events had already happened.