Tarasova/Morozov Cheer Thread

[aftershocks]

They have not been the same since their breakup. They had a genuine sweet connection, and you could tell how much they cared. Now that feeling is totally gone. Yes, emotions can be choreographed and acted. But it's impossible to choreograph human connection. Davis & White adored each other - and it was obvious in their skating. Stolbova and Klimov hated each other, and you could feel that hostility in their skating - it was exciting, lol. With these guys, frankly I feel nothing.

Interestingly, T/M seemed more relaxed and smiling after their sp skate, even though they knew it wasn't their best. There was a tender moment between them on the ice after Vlad stuck his tongue out with a bit of uncertainty at the end of the sp. They may have accepted that it's possible they won't make GPF, but realize there's still Russian Nationals, Europeans and Worlds ahead, and if they get it together, I guarantee judges are knee-jerk in love with them and will shower them with points.

Even with this lackluster Bolero at RC, with some miscues, they received their best score of the season. It might be the best they've skated aside from Russian test skates, but that's not saying much. They do obviously have great skating skills, top-notch tech and beauty on the ice, but they aren't delivering a performance that's at all interesting, plus the tech consistency is not spot-on as it used to be for them. Again, some reputation scoring and they are at home too which helps.

Their expressions were not as worried or frustrated in the kiss 'n cry. Perhaps they are accepting that turning things around is currently a work-in-progress.

 

[Cherub721]

There is still a possibility that by worlds 2020 they could iron out their issues and become competitive. I remember when B&S moved to the US (the 1999-2000 season). They struggled the whole season. Mistakes on spins, lifts, and of course jumps. By the Europeans they were much better, though not perfect. At worlds, from what I read, they were skating their best in the practices until they got the terrible news about Elena failing the drug test at Europeans.

This is a really great comparison, and honestly, you've made me feel a bit better about the situation. B&S had a similar struggle. They were making mistakes, but when they started to pull it together, they had to face an overrated team with the Worlds and GPF on their home turf right before the Olympics. But they kept it at and are now known as one of the all-time great pairs.

 

[Vash01]

This is a really great comparison, and honestly, you've made me feel a bit better about the situation. B&S had a similar struggle. They were making mistakes, but when they started to pull it together, they had to face an overrated team with the Worlds and GPF on their home turf right before the Olympics. But they kept it at and are now known as one of the all-time great pairs.

If you want to see the struggles of B&S in 1999, watch their Radetzky March SP at SC, and their Valse Sentimentale LP at SA that year. At SC Anton didn’t even show up at the practices before the LP, but they managed to skate reasonably well and win. There were rumors that they were going to split. Then the LP at the Euros was much better. They stuck together of course.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Good job from T/M here! It was a big step up from Skate Canada despite Vladimir’s little mistakes. I think they can be proud of their performance here. They’re in second place because Boikova/Kozlovskii were brilliant, not because T/M struggled. Wishing them luck in the free skate!

 

[aka_gerbil]

You can’t say that they can’t make it. Skaters have come back from devastating losses. What would make it impossible is if they didn’t have the talent. That’s not the case here.

Yes, T/M are talented. They have the talent to be world and Olympic champions. That said, we have seen the demise of a lot of skaters and teams in this sport who had the talent to be world and Olympic champions. You are right that we have seen some skaters come back (see Carolina Kostner's path from 08-09 to 11-12 seasons), but I've also seen some just slip away in a series events comparable to the one that T/M are in right now.

They do have the talent. Maybe they do turn this around and are able to win the big titles...someday. I do think this season and this quad are sunk though. There is just too much mentally, politically, technically, popularity-wise to turn around at this point to make a run at a world title this quad or the OGM in 2022. I know I'm a broken record, but no pairs team who had two gp events and failed to qualify for the GPF has ever gone on to medal at worlds in a non-Olympic year. (I know there is still technically a shot depending on how NHK goes, but Canada worlds and they're going to be pushing for M-T/M to make that final to try to set them up to get a medal at worlds.) To be in the mix for Beijing, they needed to beat S/H and win worlds and it needed to be this season. There's a lot of historical data that says that not making the GPF, means that even if they make worlds this season, there will be no medal this year. Also, to take on S/H, they needed to be Russia #1, and that's gone too now. There's just not enough time now to tackle everything to put them back into contention for this quad.

If they still want to go for a world title and the OGM though.... Pairs have longevity. Aliona was 34 when she won her OGM. Hongbo Zhou was 37 in Vancouver. T/M will be 31 and 33 in 2026. It is on the older end, but clearly older skaters have won the pairs OGM a couple of times in recent history. It's essentially writing off this quad in terms of the big goals and focusing on the next. It means spending the next few years weathering the storm, working with a sports psychologist, getting consistency back, and I think trying to do some technical upgrades. Work with jump specialists like Raf or Eteri or Mishin. Go to a really good pairs technical coach (not sure who I'd pick), and try to get the catch clean on the quad twist and maybe a quad throw (or two) to up their base value. Angelika Krylova once had some of her dance teams take acting lessons. Maybe do that too.

Of course, they've got to want it... And to me, lately, they've looked and sounded like teams/skaters I've followed in the past as they neared the point where they threw in the towel and moved on with life.

I am glad that they are with Marina and not with Mozer.

I know I sound like a broken record again, but Florida is clearly not working. Marina does seem to like them, but she's a dance coach. Her last champion pairs team was G/G--when Vladimir was just a young toddler and Evgenia hadn't even been born yet. They need pairs specialist.

 

[Vash01]

Yes, T/M are talented. They have the talent to be world and Olympic champions. That said, we have seen the demise of a lot of skaters and teams in this sport who had the talent to be world and Olympic champions. You are right that we have seen some skaters come back (see Carolina Kostner's path from 08-09 to 11-12 seasons), but I've also seen some just slip away in a series events comparable to the one that T/M are in right now.

They do have the talent. Maybe they do turn this around and are able to win the big titles...someday. I do think this season and this quad are sunk though. There is just too much mentally, politically, technically, popularity-wise to turn around at this point to make a run at a world title this quad or the OGM in 2022. I know I'm a broken record, but no pairs team who had two gp events and failed to qualify for the GPF has ever gone on to medal at worlds in a non-Olympic year. (I know there is still technically a shot depending on how NHK goes, but Canada worlds and they're going to be pushing for M-T/M to make that final to try to set them up to get a medal at worlds.) To be in the mix for Beijing, they needed to beat S/H and win worlds and it needed to be this season. There's a lot of historical data that says that not making the GPF, means that even if they make worlds this season, there will be no medal this year. Also, to take on S/H, they needed to be Russia #1, and that's gone too now. There's just not enough time now to tackle everything to put them back into contention for this quad.

If they still want to go for a world title and the OGM though.... Pairs have longevity. Aliona was 34 when she won her OGM. Hongbo Zhou was 37 in Vancouver. T/M will be 31 and 33 in 2026. It is on the older end, but clearly older skaters have won the pairs OGM a couple of times in recent history. It's essentially writing off this quad in terms of the big goals and focusing on the next. It means spending the next few years weathering the storm, working with a sports psychologist, getting consistency back, and I think trying to do some technical upgrades. Work with jump specialists like Raf or Eteri or Mishin. Go to a really good pairs technical coach (not sure who I'd pick), and try to get the catch clean on the quad twist and maybe a quad throw (or two) to up their base value. Angelika Krylova once had some of her dance teams take acting lessons. Maybe do that too.

Of course, they've got to wanted... And to me, lately, they've looked and sounded like teams/skaters I've followed in the past as the neared the point where they threw in the towel and moved on with life.



I know I sound like a broken record again, but Florida is clearly not working. Marina does seem to like them, but she's a dance coach. Her last champion pairs team was G/G--when Vladimir was just a young toddler and Evgenia hadn't even been born yet. They need pairs specialist.

They just arrived in Florida six months (?) ago. How can you say it is not working? They have to adjust to a lot of new things. Marina is not there to teach them pairs technique. A coach is a lot more than mere technician. You have to give everyone a chance to grow. Your negative posts are very irritating to even a natural pessimist like me.

 

[Vash01]

B&K overtaking T&M as Russia’s number one somehow reminds me of young G&G overtaking world champions V&V in the mid 1980s. However, T&M have more natural talent than V&V, so who knows? I think a big rivalry within a country can produce great results because they push each other. Think Yagudin Plushenko, or K&D B&S, etc.

 

[NAOTMAA]

B&K overtaking T&M as Russia’s number one somehow reminds me of young G&G overtaking world champions V&V in the mid 1980s. However, T&M have more natural talent than V&V, so who knows? I think a big rivalry within a country can produce great results because they push each other. Think Yagudin Plushenko, or K&D B&S, etc.

I don't think T/M ever had a rivalry. They went from #3 behind V/T and S/K, and the fed. refused to budge on their hierarchy despite performance, straight to #1 because V/T realized pairs skating passed them and S/K crashed out. Z/E were never serious challengers. We still got the GPF, nationals, Euros and worlds so a rivalry definitely could be in the process of blooming. It would definitely be fun (as long as it doesn't hurt either internationally with the judges ). The marks at Rostelecom seem to suggest they do see a competition

 

[Vash01]

I just watched their most recent LP performance. I really like this look for them (except for Vladimir's purple shirt- did he misplace his black or white shirt?).

When I watched it during the competition, I was too nervous to really enjoy it.

The problems on sbs jumps were not too bad. On the 3S she doubled. He completed 3 revs but had a wonky landing (but one foot). On the second sbs jumps (combination) she had a forward landing on the first jump but it was on one foot. Both completed the two doubles after that but they were out of sync because her first jump was landed forward. I think these problems can be fixed.

They have the best 3TW. Their speed and power is amazing. Many of their lifts were difficult and innovative. I really liked the in between moves.

I think this was a well skated program. Had the sbs jumps been clean and in sync, their marks would have been much higher.

I would still like better costumes for them.


I think they need to look at each other more. This is a romantic song, I think. Only at the final spin they looked at each other. I think they are too concerned about executing the technical elements correctly. That is understandable, considering what happened during their last two competitions. As they become more comfortable skating this, they will need to appear more romantic- at least look at each other.

Still, a good job today. They must feel relieved somewhat.

 

[Vash01]

Their skate from Russian open:

Tarasova/Morozov. Russian open skates 2019. FP

www.youtube.com

This is the best I have seen them skate this LP. I think the reason is that it is not a competition. You see a lot of freedom throughout. Both appear more relaxed and confident. Compare this with their performance today. It was good but not as free as the test skate performance.

Evgenia TARASOVA / Vladimir MOROZOV. GP Russia 2019, FS

www.youtube.com

So the key may be to help them relax before a competition?

Tamara Moskvina finds different ways to help her skaters relax before a competition. They don't always work though. At the 2002 Olympics she sent Elena & Anton for snowmobiling. It gave Elena a sunburn and she looked very red. It went away of course. Before a skate Tamara looks into the skater's eyes and hypnotizes them.

Can we find a hypnotist for T&M?

 

[Spun Silver]

Well, Marina Zoueva chose to work in FL for the pleasant environment (so she says ... as an ex-Floridian I am not totally convinced but never mind). Although she uses the water and beach for training purposes, they are also available for R&R. So T/M should be pretty well set up in that regard. I guess they'd have to go out of network for hypnosis.

 

[Vash01]

When you get a lemon, you make lemonade. I hope T&M will use this free time after missing the GPF to work hard and prepare for the Russian nationals.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

I think they are on the cusp of something great. I really do. I was wondering for while whether they'd stay together. But after re-watching their FP from last week, I feel good. They seemed more relaxed and the energy between the two of them was good. They are still young. Things can turn around for them.

 

[Mad for Skating]

I think Tarasova/Morozov still have a great chance. They looked much improved at Rostelecom Cup, and realistically, they're one of Russia's best chances at a World medal this year. They missed the GPF because they had difficult assignments and an aborted lift, not because they are bad skaters or had a total meltdown. I think they'll still be either no. 1 or no. 2 in Russia for a while.

Stolbova/Klimov didn't make the 2013-14 GPF and they won the 2014 Olympic and World silver medals. Have some faith, y'all.

 

[Satellizer]

New interview with Zueva

https://sport.business-gazeta.ru/article/248299

 

[Vash01]

New interview with Zueva

https://sport.business-gazeta.ru/article/248299

This is a really good interview. This is a long article. I am slow at translating, so I took the cop out of Google translate frequently. I will try to translate it for myself later, but not publish it. Funny thing is at one place Google translated Morozov's last name as Frost, because Moroz means Frost in Russian. GT used to translate Berezhnaya's last name as Careful.

In summary, Zoueva says that they took a big risk in making this move, after their failures to win a big title. They changed/are changing their style. They didn't want to stagnate. They are more interesting to watch now, as per Smirnov (and I agree). Any big change needs time and patience. It was a tragedy that they missed the GPF. It affects their reputation with the judges but they have more time to prepare for the nationals. The internal competition is tougher now, and the competition at worlds has also become tougher.

She says their goal is the Olympics and the world championship, so the early failures at smaller competitions are just a part of the training. There is also a comment about Medvedeva's difficulties after she switched to Orser. It takes one and a half year to get used to the new conditions, according to Zoueva. She has a plan for them. They have this style this season. Next season another one. She says their failure is her failure. I think T&M are in very capable hands.

They go to the beach almost daily. There is a nice picture of Morozov on the boat. They must feel really relaxed.

Zoueva is talking of two Olympics for them (may be joking?), and Vladimir said he would be too old by the 2026 Olympics. Not so, Vladimir. Hongbo Zhao was older.

I think they will make the Russian worlds team this year, barring a disaster in one of their performances (SP or LP). B&K are a lock but T&M should be able to beat M&G, P&K and others if they skate nearly clean.

I wish they had made a coaching change much earlier, but better late than never.

 

[Vash01]

I think this interview needs to be reposted in the GSD forum, for all others to read. Not everyone reads T&M cheer thread.

Keep this link here though. It is a very encouraging statement. Many of us were feeling really down. Thanks for posting it here.

 

[Satellizer]

I think this interview needs to be reposted in the GSD forum, for all others to read. Not everyone reads T&M cheer thread.

Keep this link here though. It is a very encouraging statement. Many of us were feeling really down. Thanks for posting it here.

You're welcome and I'll do just that.

 

[Vash01]

Looking back, I am wondering if Candyman was T&M's attempt to do a different style? If they had proper guidance, they could have changed their style, but used the right piece of music.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Looking back, I am wondering if Candyman was T&M's attempt to do a different style? If they had proper guidance, they could have changed their style, but used the right piece of music.

I think Candyman was an effort to imitate the fun, flirty style of their “Glam” SP. They had good reception for that bright, cheery, quirky kind of program, so they tried to do a similar concept. However, the whole program just got off on the wrong foot and it became cringey instead of charming. If they could’ve stayed with the Glam theme, it would’ve been fine

 

[mjb52]

I don't think Candyman was a great program but I still think the reaction to it was one of the most over-the-top things I have ever seen in skating. P & C's program is like nine billion times more embarrassing and yet everyone is pretending it's fine. (sorry to exaggerate, the double standard just frustrates me a bit, all that thanksgiving food has me speaking too freely I guess - let's go with around ten times more embarrassing).

 

[aka_gerbil]

I think Candyman was an effort to imitate the fun, flirty style of their “Glam” SP. They had good reception for that bright, cheery, quirky kind of program, so they tried to do a similar concept. However, the whole program just got off on the wrong foot and it became cringey instead of charming. If they could’ve stayed with the Glam theme, it would’ve been fine

I think you’re right that with “Candyman” they were trying to do something in the vein of “Glam.” I just hate that it ended with T/M getting labeled as unable to do cheery, cute, upbeat programs—because “Glam” is proof they can.

I suspect that commentary on program choice contributes to t/m’s self-esteem problems. They seem to get criticized no matter what they pick and it’s pretty much unwarranted when you look at them compared to other stuff that gets done in skating.

 

[Wyliefan]

I don't think Candyman was a great program but I still think the reaction to it was one of the most over-the-top things I have ever seen in skating. P & C's program is like nine billion times more embarrassing and yet everyone is pretending it's fine. (sorry to exaggerate, the double standard just frustrates me a bit, all that thanksgiving food has me speaking too freely I guess - let's go with around ten times more embarrassing).

I don't know if it's a double standard so much as that no one else thought to compare a rather mediocre poem with an absolutely cringeworthy song. In other words, I'd wager that most of us think that Candyman was way worse.

 

[Mad for Skating]

I don't think Candyman was a great program but I still think the reaction to it was one of the most over-the-top things I have ever seen in skating. P & C's program is like nine billion times more embarrassing and yet everyone is pretending it's fine. (sorry to exaggerate, the double standard just frustrates me a bit, all that thanksgiving food has me speaking too freely I guess - let's go with around ten times more embarrassing).

It wasn’t a great program, but I agree that the negative reactions were overboard. Personally, I just felt bad because they are such good skaters but got saddled with a FS that simply hid all their talent! I’ve seen many bad programs that don’t get half this much criticism. Unfortunately, some people can’t see that bad programs don’t always = bad skaters.

I think you’re right that with “Candyman” they were trying to do something in the vein of “Glam.” I just hate that it ended with T/M getting labeled as unable to do cheery, cute, upbeat programs—because “Glam” is proof they can.

I suspect that commentary on program choice contributes to t/m’s self-esteem problems. They seem to get criticized no matter what they pick and it’s pretty much unwarranted when you look at them compared to other stuff that gets done in skating.

I agree. Glam was fun, cute, and suited a fast young team like them. I hate how everyone seems to criticize them no matter what direction they go in. Well, you can’t please everyone.

 

[Vash01]

I don't think Candyman was a great program but I still think the reaction to it was one of the most over-the-top things I have ever seen in skating. P & C's program is like nine billion times more embarrassing and yet everyone is pretending it's fine. (sorry to exaggerate, the double standard just frustrates me a bit, all that thanksgiving food has me speaking too freely I guess - let's go with around ten times more embarrassing).

I agree with you about Candyman. It was not great but it was not horrible, particularly when well skated. The judges correctly gave them high marks when they were nearly clean.
I had no problem with the costumes but I hated the music and not just for T&M. I agree that the reaction was Over the Top. Part of it may have been the high expectations of this pair that skated so well to Rachmaninov.

 

[angi]

I have to disagree about Candyman. I love T/M, they have the ability to be the best pairs team in the world and while they do struggle with interpretation at times I think they have shown great improvement in that area as well with every season that passes. That being said Candyman was an awful idea even if it wasn't an Olympic season, but for an Olympic season FS it was simply one of the worst ideas for a program, for a team that was a medal contender.
Even if T/M were a team that at the time could have handled that kind of style, everything about it was just wrong - the music cut, the weird censoring of inappropriate words, the cheap-looking costumes and everything to do with the packaging, just everything about it. I mean just compare it to the other three programs in the last group, each one was designed to have the biggest effect on the audience as possible, but Candyman was anything but. And it came across with the audience reaction to it (even when skated clean) and with the commentary that it received (during the season and during the Olympic games) - I listened to commentary from NBC, CBC, British Eurosport, the official stream and BBC, every single commentary talked about what an unfitting program it was, some might have been more mean-spirited than others but overall it was a consensus that the program itself wasn't good but most of all that it was the worst program for T/M themselves, especially compared to their amazing Rachmaninov SP.
To this day I have no idea how no one just spoke up and said that they have to have a better program for the Olympics. I know that overall it scored well (at least it did at Europeans championships) but compared to what S/M, S/H and even D/R were doing that season, I honestly fail to understand how no one did anything about it.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

I don't think Candyman was a great program but I still think the reaction to it was one of the most over-the-top things I have ever seen in skating. P & C's program is like nine billion times more embarrassing and yet everyone is pretending it's fine. (sorry to exaggerate, the double standard just frustrates me a bit, all that thanksgiving food has me speaking too freely I guess - let's go with around ten times more embarrassing).

It was totally cringe-worthy for me. As a fan of T&M, I hated Candyman because it was so unworthy of them. It seemed unnatural and thoughtless... I've seen worse programs. I don't know if I've even seen a program less appropriate for the skaters and the circumstances (Olympic season, a young pair contending for the gold, etc.)

 

[NAOTMAA]

T/M tend to relax a lot more in their exhibitions so chances are "Candyman" could have been a very successful exhibition piece for them. They probably would have pulled it off nicely and it would have been a lot of fun for everyone involved. On paper it may have looked good but they should have realized that it just wasn't going to work as a competitive program even if they hoped it could.

 

[Vash01]

Can we compare T&M’s Candyman with B&S’s Citylights LP? It was my least favorite B&S LP. They skated it well on many occasions and won (except when they should have- worlds 2001). IMO it lacked the beauty of their other programs.

Their costumes were great and Anton was great as Chaplin. Elena played the blind girl part well. One could appreciate their skills but I didn’t care for the humorous middle part. Neither did the judges, it seems. They told Tamara that for the Olympics the judges wanted a classical, romantic program. B&S loved Citylights and they wanted to skate it in the Olympics. The judges indicated that they would not win if they skated Citylights. So Tamara picked Meditation for them and used a very difficult choreography. They pulled it off.

Now look at Candyman. It seems the judges gave them no input, and/or they were ignored. The music was terrible for them (it could have been fun for another pair). I had no problem with the costumes but it seems everyone else did. What bothered me was the music.

T&M could not portray the characters well,particularly Vladimir. Did Mozer pay any attention to the pair that was a contender for OGM? There was no way they could win the gold with this program but they could have won a silver or bronze (more likely).

Even if T&M had skated their best, they had no chance of winning the OGM. What was wrong with Candyman was that it didn’t highlight the positives of T&M. Instead it highlighted their negatives. If Astakhova Rogonov had skated to Candyman with those costumes,I don’t think anybody would have complained. It was so ‘not T&M’!

B&S Citylights case was different. Although I didn’t feel that it suited them, many others did,including the commentators lt showed their versatility. It still showed their skills. The judges didn’t like it. That was the main problem (It May have been a part of the political campaign against them, to help S&P). I adored their Kid exhibition but as a competition LP it is still my least favorite of their programs. Could they have beaten S&P with This? I think the chances were 50-50. Tamara, being a smart coach, raised their chances significantly by choosing the right program for them, and it was a beauty.

So I place major blame on coach Mozer.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I'm gonna come right out and say it, I never got the hate for Candyman. I found it fun and engaging, and to me it was the perfect example of how lyrics can destroy a program. If not for "cherry pop" and "nasty dirty boy" it wouldn't got got nearly the amount of hate it did.

I have to concentrate hard to hear lyrics in programs, so it was long while before I even realised what they were.

However, the amount of ridicule T/M got for it was cruel and disgusting, there were people who were honestly happy T/M missed the podium at the Olympics (the most important competition of all) JUST because of that.

And then they wonder why T/M are so reclusive and quiet! Imagine reading some of the stuff directed at them as if it was directed at you! I'd never leave my house!