Tarasova/Morozov Cheer Thread

aka_gerbil said:
Yes, they did make a big move, but this is more than adjustment period woes. This is not working. Max, with literally no coaching experience, had them skating better last season. They are 2 for 2 on disaster competitions at this point. One more disaster, no GPF. One more disaster after that, no Euros or Worlds.

I was all for them going to Marina for choreo, but she is clearly too rusty on coaching pairs technically.
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Marina is not a technical coach ís she?
 
Amy L said:
Well, yes, I know all that. The discussion has been that they have lost their reputation and should quit skating altogether because they have lost and will never be allowed to win ever ever again in a billion years. :lol: That is patently not true, mentioning the previous pairs. T/M used to be quite consistent, especially when they were new to seniors and didn't know any better. They had a personal breakup and tanked the Olympics within a few months of each other. They haven't been able to mentally toughen back up since. I don't know if it's possible or not, I don't know them personally. All I'm saying is that they'd be allowed to win. Difficult, but possible. So many pairs competitions end with the winning team being the one that got the least close to physically dying during a program.
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Only one poster mentioned that they should quit skating and do something else.

marysy said:
I’m surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but they just moved across the world to a new country to train under a new coach. There’s going to be an adjustment period and some growing pains in the process. A few bad competitions doesn’t mean their career is over.
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I mentioned it - see my post 438. I also mentioned what had happened to Berezhnaya Sikharulidze after they moved to the US.

Marina may not be Tamara but I am sure she can help them settle down.
 
aka_gerbil said:
No, she is not. I presume Johnny Johns is working with T/M, but clearly something is amiss.
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Marina is not their only coach. Nina Mozer is also listed as coach, and I believe Trankov also helps (but they are in Russia).

May be they should hire Gordeeva as their tech coach. G&G were technically perfect.
 
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Vash01 said:
MTM are not exactly a no name team. They are Canada’s current number one, skating in Canada, so they got the cushion.



ITA about S&H or J&C not being dinged. However, those two pairs have already earned the judges’ respect, while T&M have developed a reputation fir inconsistency, despite their strong skates at worlds 2019.

T&M need to reestablish themselves, which is harder than just establishing themselves. In retrospect they shouldn’t have gone to SLC, given the circumstances. It will take them a while to pull themselves out of the hole. They will need to be flawless in the LP and in their next GP.

I am always pessimistic so I need to stop expecting flawless performances from them. However, the judges need to reward their exquisite positions, strong SS, and lines. If they land the jumps and throws, the judges will reward those other things. I see so many ugly positions by other pairs (not B&K) getting ignored! They have big twist and big throws that often don’t get rewarded highly enough, but again it comes down to consistency in jumps and throws.

I am not willing to write off this season. They are still adjusting to new surroundings,new coaches and choreographers. They need to develop confidence. They need to believe in themselves.
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Oops, I made an error responding to the “no name Russian team”. I replied with MTM (Can) The Russian pair B&K were not a no-name team. They drew a lot of attention last year with their clean skates, and their personalities. They made the Euro and World teams - not a small accomplishment in Russia. Plus they are students of legendary coach Tamara Moskvina.
 
T&M will have more internal competition from now on. Mishina Gallyamov are showing promise. Stolbova could make a come back with her new partner. Z&E were strong last year. B&K have already proven themselves. P&K have won a GP silver already. Competition is usually good, as we have seen from the Russian ladies. However, it takes a certain kind of fighting spirit to use it to their advantage.

I think T&M were very consistent when they were the underdogs in Russia. After they became number one there, they seemed to lose the consistency. I still believe they have the most natural talent, and they need to focus on their own abilities and believe in themselves. They need to forget about medals or winning, and just focus on skating their best. They are different from S&H who are natural fighters. So the expectations of them by others need to be a little different. I will be happy if they just win one world championship in their career.

I hope Marina has a magic wand that she can wave and make them realize their tremendous potential. I think they are a little like Sasha Cohen and Gracie Gold. Lots of natural talent but not many wins.
 
Here's an interview with Marina from after the US International. No revelations about T/M but gives some insight into her view of them and how she works. She attributes their performance at the USIC to travel and time change issues. She seems a bit cagy about them in general. Perfectly matched and have all the ingredients of success. She doesn't commit to a timetable like Raf's two years, but says time and patience are needed. She hints that she and the skaters are still getting used to each other. As a general philosophy, she wants training to be joyful and she thinks her sunny new location is more conducive to that. She says there are two kinds of people, "wrestlers" (fighters) and non-wrestlers. Athletes must want to work to be champions - there's no such thing as a champion who has to be made to work. (This echoes things I've heard about her camp in the past -- the athletes there bring their own motivation, she doesn't force it, or need to.)
translate.google.com

Марина Зуева: «Когда катаются Тарасова и Морозов, у других тренеров замирает дыхание»

Новый тренер видит в фигуристах «русский стиль».
translate.google.com translate.google.com
sport.business-gazeta.ru

Марина Зуева: «Когда катаются Тарасова и Морозов, у других тренеров замирает дыхание»

Новый тренер видит в фигуристах «русский стиль».
sport.business-gazeta.ru sport.business-gazeta.ru
(PS: Some Google Translate tips:
"Ride" is skate or flow (I think)
"Emissions" and "outbursts" are throws
"Todes" is death spiral (German for death)
"Revising" is, I think, rewatching
"Rentals" are programs
"Sirtaki" - no idea!

To me the panic expressed in this thread is premature. Plenty of skaters have come back from bad patches. There is a lot we (I) don't know about T&M -- how they feel about Marina and their new training situation, what's going on with their relationship, how they are dealing with life in America, if they have any injuries, and so forth. I wonder who they have to hang out with and how/if they are finding joy in their training. Anyway, I hope they shake off this comp and do what they're capable of in Russia.
 
I remember what Tamara once said (this was about B&S but it could be general)- after a peak you go through a valley, then you climb a hill again (major paraphrasing on my part). So after a successful 2019 worlds (two clean performances) T&M are in a valley now. If Tamara is correct, they will climb out of it.
 
I have to say the Marina-Tamara show at SC was fantastic. So far it's Tamara 2 (SP and FS), Marina 0. Let's see how Marina fights back!
 
Everyone keeps saying "adjustment period," but this is like standing there watching a piece of machinery malfunction and not doing anything about it. I don't buy that coaching change involves disaster skates and regression.

To pull an example from ice dance, take Hubbell/Donohue moving to Montreal in 2015. They were coming back from her hip injury and surgery in 14-15, but they finished 3rd in both of their GP events. They barely eeked out a win at Golden Spin. They barely won third at US nationals, finishing only 2.5 points ahead of H/B. They got the worlds assignment, but were passed over for 4CC. At worlds, they were 11th in the SD and barely managed to make it to 10th overall, mainly because others faltered in the FD. They made the coaching change after that worlds. The 15-16 season, they started out by winning their challenger. They won the SD in France (before the rest of the event was cancelled), finished third at NHK, made their first GPF. They were still third at nationals as they were the year before, but unlike in 2015, it wasn't an eeked out placement. They were closer to the top teams with a huge gap between them and 4th. (4th was 18 points behind them; they were 30 points ahead of H/B). Even though they finished 4th overall, they split placements with C/B in the short and W/P in the long at 2016 4CC, finishing third in both segments. They were 6th at worlds that season. Now, they're one of the top teams in the world, 2-time us champions, 2-time world medalists. I know there were a few rocky moments along the way (worlds 2017 FD, sigh), but they came out of the gate with improved results and progression forwards. T/M are known for being great technicians and they came out of the gate after their coaching change with two disaster competitions.

Marina is not a technical coach, not even for dance. She's a choreographer and good at packaging, expression, etc. But she didn't even choreograph their programs and all the packaging and expression in the world counts for nothing if you can't do the elements. And they are failing and doing things they had no problem with before in the past.
 
They don't need a technical coach, they already got the technical goods. They need a coach who can help them with the mental and emotional aspect of the game, or at least a member of the team behind the scenes. Whatever they got now doesn't seem to be working
 
aka_gerbil said:
Whole post
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Actually their "out of the gate" skates were at the test skates which went well, and most fans (at least on FSU) felt the coaching change was clearly on the right track. Something has gone wrong since then and I haven't heard any authoritative reason why. We're just guessing. It's not relevant to say "they're not following the H/D trajectory so they're doomed"--they have their own trajectory. Unless they suddenly leave Marina and go back home or maybe to Aljona in Germany in the next week or two :D, or retire over a silver and a bronze medal, :huh: we'll just have to wait and see how they do in Russia.

The last thing I'll say is that I don't think your assessment of Marina is fair. She isn't working by herself - she has a team, plus Mozer and Trankov are still involved. And Marina was the one who called in her alum Charlie to choreograph their FS. Her camp has been a factory for Olympic medals and it's a bit hard to buy that T/M are training under inadequate conditions or coaching. There's no technical reason why their elements would suddenly need changing at this point anyway. They have all the elements. It's the packaging and the training setup where they can feel like the top team that they came to Zoueva for. I can't help thinking that their struggles are more psychological or interpersonal, and Im not sure where they would go to fix a broken heart, homesickness or culture shock.
 
it takes so many variables for a singles' skater and their team to put it together and skate a successful event. I would imagine being in a pair would only double those factors.

When everything is working, the skaters make what they do look very easy.

When the wheels begin to fall off, it must be so hard to get momentum moving again both from a physical and psychological perspective.

I hope they find their groove again, and are back to top form soon.
 
Vash01 said:
Oops, I made an error responding to the “no name Russian team”. I replied with MTM (Can) The Russian pair B&K were not a no-name team. They drew a lot of attention last year with their clean skates, and their personalities. They made the Euro and World teams - not a small accomplishment in Russia. Plus they are students of legendary coach Tamara Moskvina.
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Boikova & Kozlovskii have really come into their own at the senior level. Since moving up from juniors, her consistency on the side by side jumps is much improved, too. I love that they are coached by Moskvina. They have that classical-balletic style reminiscent of Valova / Vassiliev, and Bechke / Petrov.
 
Ilia Averbukh choreographed it because he needed them to have multiple show programs for his tour last year. I don't know if it's about Denis specifically, but I doubt it's totally coincidental.
 
Wow! That's stunning. Why can't they do an intense, romantic (even tragic) program like that for competition? People think they can't emote but in their ex's they sure do.
 
NAOTMAA said:
They don't need a technical coach, they already got the technical goods. They need a coach who can help them with the mental and emotional aspect of the game, or at least a member of the team behind the scenes. Whatever they got now doesn't seem to be working
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They have to maintain those skills though.

I obviously agree they need help mentally too and whatever the approach to that now is, it is clearly not working.

Spun Silver said:
The last thing I'll say is that I don't think your assessment of Marina is fair. She isn't working by herself - she has a team, plus Mozer and Trankov are still involved. And Marina was the one who called in her alum Charlie to choreograph their FS. Her camp has been a factory for Olympic medals and it's a bit hard to buy that T/M are training under inadequate conditions or coaching. There's no technical reason why their elements would suddenly need changing at this point anyway. They have all the elements. It's the packaging and the training setup where they can feel like the top team that they came to Zoueva for. I can't help thinking that their struggles are more psychological or interpersonal, and Im not sure where they would go to fix a broken heart, homesickness or culture shock.
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I know she's been a factory for Olympic medals--I am a V/M fan, after all. She played a big part in making them into what they are. That said, it's been a factory for ice dance medals. The last time she had an Olympic/World medalist pair was Gordeeva and Grinkov. When G/G won in 1994, Vladimir was 15 months old and Evgenia hadn't even been born yet. It's been awhile. The only other pairs teams I can recall her (and Johnny Johns) having are Castile/Okolski and Y/C. The first might have been able to have made a run at it if Brooke hadn't been perpetually injured after their national title in 2007. The second made it to 6th at worlds, but then split. The fact remains that it's been awhile since she's had a pair at this level. They have a team of people to coach dance, but there are not a lot of overlaps there. Ice dancers aren't jumping, doing throws, overhead lifts, twists, or side-by-spins. Jumping has been a problem for awhile now. Is there anyone in that group that is a jumping expert? That's what I'm getting at.

I know Max and Mozer are still supposed to be involved, but it looks like they made one trip each. How much help is that, really? Like I said above, yes, they have the elements, but they also need to maintain those.

I get that there is obviously a mental component to all of this. They're adrift, that is for sure.

I also know that it's true that all there is now is to wait for Rostelecom, but personally, I'm not seeing how it's going to turn out any different from the first two competitions this season. These disaster competitions sort of beget more disaster competitions. No matter what the discipline is, we've all seen it before. That is a hard cycle to break.

Amy L said:
Ilia Averbukh choreographed it because he needed them to have multiple show programs for his tour last year. I don't know if it's about Denis specifically, but I doubt it's totally coincidental.
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Isn't there some sort of very Averbukh plot to it about the program being about an earthling and a dying planet or something like that?

Spun Silver said:
Wow! That's stunning. Why can't they do an intense, romantic (even tragic) program like that for competition? People think they can't emote but in their ex's they sure do.
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Anyone who says they're incapable of performing/emoting, etc. hasn't taken the time to watch any of their gala pieces. "Ordinary People", the number that Lambiel did for them, this one...
 
Spun Silver said:
Wow! That's stunning. Why can't they do an intense, romantic (even tragic) program like that for competition? People think they can't emote but in their ex's they sure do.
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I think it is difficult for many skaters to have the emotion and the technical consistency. I remember how consistent Shen and Zhao were before they started developing their artistry. Some of the inconsistency may have been due to Zhao’s injury but when they became a well developed pair, their consistency was not as good as when they were just jumpers.

In the current competitive environment one tech mistake could cost a pair a medal. So I suspect pairs other than Sui Han are being cautious (and it may have cost S&H the gold at the 2018 Olympics).

This is particularly true of romantic or tragic story telling. The pure joy we see from B&K is natural and they don’t have to ‘work’ to express that.

Exhibitions are different. A mistake doesn’t cost the skaters anything, so they can let loose and express themselves freely.

However, in T&M’s case they may want to find a middle path where they can be both consistent and expressive. It is so hard to do.
 
Vash01 said:
I think it is difficult for many skaters to have the emotion and the technical consistency. I remember how consistent Shen and Zhao were before they started developing their artistry. Some of the inconsistency may have been due to Zhao’s injury but when they became a well developed pair, their consistency was not as good as when they were just jumpers.

In the current competitive environment one tech mistake could cost a pair a medal. So I suspect pairs other than Sui Han are being cautious (and it may have cost S&H the gold at the 2018 Olympics).

This is particularly true of romantic or tragic story telling. The pure joy we see from B&K is natural and they don’t have to ‘work’ to express that.

Exhibitions are different. A mistake doesn’t cost the skaters anything, so they can let loose and express themselves freely.

However, in T&M’s case they may want to find a middle path where they can be both consistent and expressive. It is so hard to do.
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I don't know, I'm of the opinion that emotion can be choreographed. For example, the lack of it was often seen as a deficit in Davis/White. Then they took it on themselves to learn to act on ice, and built it into their routines. Given how strong technically T/M are, I can't see that it would be that difficult to add some expressive details to their routines.

Also, a lot of it is choosing to give them more romantic programs with emotional music in the first place.
 
Cherub721 said:
Could someone please translate what Evgenia says here, at about 2:01-2:12
youtu.be

Евгения Тарасова - Владимир Морозов. Скейт Канада. 2019

Интервью бронзовых призеров Гран-при в Канаде Евгении Тарасовой -- Владимира Морозова корреспонденту Татьяне Фладе для сайта ФФККР
youtu.be youtu.be
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My Russian sucks too much for me to be able to hear her without a mic over all the background noise. I think she said something like the speed and emotions were good. But Vladimir does blame her for the lift mistake and said that she was off the rhythm - - check out her expression at 2:34! He made a lot of catty remarks about her mistakes last season in front of her face but she keeps her mouth shut about his. They need some couples counseling - or Marina can give them pool noodles to hit each other with. It reminds me of something Anton Sikharulidze said about off-ice pairs that break up. Everything becomes doubled. "You can't land your jumps and you always left the dishes in the sink!" They've been broken up for nearly 2 years and it's over time they have to figure something out.
 
Mad for Skating said:
Relax, guys! T/M had a bad event here, but Rostelecom might be a different story. Let’s at least wait till the GPF before we start writing them off.
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For most figure skating fans, there's always a reaction to what just happened. But then, in regard to T/M, some fans are reacting to a long history of them not quite living up to their promising talent and harnessing who they are in an expressive way on the ice. Meanwhile, because they have textbook elements when they are on, they generally have received loads of manna from heaven from the judges. I contend that the judges can overdo the manna from heaven when even the skaters know they don't deserve such gifts, e.g., T/M received consistently huge scores from the judges for weirdly unsuitable Candyman, even with horrid mistakes. What kind of message does that send to skaters? Not a good one, in my estimation.

Now, when T/M can use more judging help, the judges are wanting them to prove they can be more consistent. Meanwhile, T/M are looking so unconfident, after a promising Russian test skates outing. Yep, sure, this current downward scenario can turn around for them. But unless they start showing up with some confidence and spark, instead of tense, weary, hangdog expressions, it's going to be a long season. On the positive side, they haven't missed the podium yet, and they've got Marina and she doesn't seem too worried.

T/M need to settle down and figure out who they are, and try to show us who they are on the ice. If they are going to continue wandering in the wilderness trying to be something other than who they are, we are in for more Zzzzzz :yawn: Possibly confidence in their tech abilities will kick in for them and they may return to better tech consistency and get back former full-on respect from the judges, with also a bit of help from Rusfed influencing the judges in their favor. We'll see... It's hard to predict with all the depth in Russian pairs and internationally.
 
aka_gerbil said:
Anyone who says they're incapable of performing/emoting, etc. hasn't taken the time to watch any of their gala pieces.
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Yep, I saw one of their gala programs, and I was surprised to see Vlad smiling at Evgenia and moving with more ease and less tension! I wondered why someone doesn't adapt one of their best exhibitions for a competitive piece. They need to skate to music that they are both moved by.

I didn't realize T/M have broken up off-the-ice. That can bring some unsettled emotions to a partnership, unless it's a mutual, loving decision made and committed to by both partners, as a personal sacrifice in order to focus on their on-ice partnership, as happened in the case of James/Cipres.
 
Amy L said:
My Russian sucks too much for me to be able to hear her without a mic over all the background noise. I think she said something like the speed and emotions were good.
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Same reason I am asking :lol: Ok, what you say makes sense, since she was saying something about emotions I thought she said горесть (sorrow) but she said скорость (speed).

But Vladimir does blame her for the lift mistake and said that she was off the rhythm - - check out her expression at 2:34! He made a lot of catty remarks about her mistakes last season in front of her face but she keeps her mouth shut about his. They need some couples counseling - or Marina can give them pool noodles to hit each other with. It reminds me of something Anton Sikharulidze said about off-ice pairs that break up. Everything becomes doubled. "You can't land your jumps and you always left the dishes in the sink!" They've been broken up for nearly 2 years and it's over time they have to figure something out.
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I could be wrong but I thought he said the entrance was bad and their rhythm together was bad, but not naming her specifically. It's really hard to hear though.
 
Vash01 said:
That was beautiful. They are capable of expressing intense emotions.
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Can't view the video, as it's geoblocked. Where are the exhibitions being made available for viewing in the U.S.? NBC Gold does not provide GP exhibitions.
 
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