Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[yfbg722]

. And given that Coughlin had extensive legal expenses, ergo Sappenfeld's GoFundMe, he was represented by council who would have most assuredly told him to say nothing to the press. He was kept informed all along.

Do we know this for a fact? Perhaps the legal expenses Sappenfield added to the original GoFundMe are for his family to work on clearing his name. Originally the fund was only seeking $10,000 for funeral expenses.

Some in the skating community I've been in touch with say that John was frustrated because the exact nature of the allegations against him had not even been revealed to him. We don't know for a fact that he was kept informed all along either. We don't actually know anything for a fact other than that a young man who was beloved by many is no longer here.

 

[rfisher]

Do we know this for a fact? Perhaps the legal expenses Sappenfield added to the original GoFundMe are for his family to work on clearing his name. Originally the fund was only seeking $10,000 for funeral expenses.

Some in the skating community I've been in touch with say that John was frustrated because the exact nature of the allegations against him had not even been revealed to him. We don't know for a fact that he was kept informed all along either. We don't actually know anything for a fact other than that a young man who was beloved by many is no longer here.

legal expenses are legal expenses. "clearing his name" is exactly why you hire a lawyer. He'd have been a fool to not hire a lawyer when this began months ago. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

 

[skatingguy]

But people don't just "decide to commit suicide."

That's not true. Particularly with men, suicide can be a spur of the moment decision brought on by sudden changes in status - losing a job, losing a large amount of money, or the end of a relationship. When I was in high school a friend of mine hung himself from a tree in a park because his girlfriend broke up with him. He committed suicide within a few hours of the breakup, and there was no chance for anyone to intervene because we didn't know what had happened.

 

[yfbg722]

legal expenses are legal expenses. "clearing his name" is exactly why you hire a lawyer.

It was the assumption that he had already wracked up legal expenses and was informed that I was questioning. It is equally possible that Sappenfield is looking for help with expenses she expects to incur in trying to clear his name. This is my take from her post on Facebook where she says "Thank you for the letter you left me. I promise to you that your voice and truth will be heard."

 

[rfisher]

It was the assumption that he had already wracked up legal expenses and was informed that I was questioning. It is equally possible that Sappenfield is looking for help with expenses she expects to incur in trying to clear his name. This is my take from her post on Facebook where she says "Thank you for the letter you left me. I promise to you that your voice and truth will be heard."

I have no idea and really don't put a lot of credence into what she says.

 

[her grace]

Quoting from posts in the other thread

Its about time they pulled the plug on TSL!!, surely this case MUST do it

Who is "they"? TSL has free speech and free press rights as much as anyone else. Unless they slandered anyone, at which point a civil action could be filed, they have just as much right to discuss this as you do.

All other issues aside. TSL serves to glamorourise bullying and meaness in figure skating. The example he sets for the sport is dreadful.

Agreed. I find TSL's general approach to skaters pungent and do not listen to them. Vote with your ears, rather than advocating censorship.

 

[yfbg722]

I have no idea and really don't put a lot of credence into what she says.

Seems plausible that she would know a lot more about the situation than any of us. John's father took the time to comment on her post. That seems to indicate that she's still an insider/friend to the family.

 

[judiz]

Do we know this for a fact? Perhaps the legal expenses Sappenfield added to the original GoFundMe are for his family to work on clearing his name. Originally the fund was only seeking $10,000 for funeral expenses.

Some in the skating community I've been in touch with say that John was frustrated because the exact nature of the allegations against him had not even been revealed to him. We don't know for a fact that he was kept informed all along either. We don't actually know anything for a fact other than that a young man who was beloved by many is no longer here.

I find it hard to believe he did not know the exact nature of the allegations against him. He may not had known who made the allegations but no way would his lawyer be kept in the dark.

 

[feraina]

People are often wrongly accused of all sorts of crimes, though I don't know the percentages and don't have time to research them right now.

As previously stated, most rapes and acts of sexual harrasment do not get reported. According to this article for the BBC, only 35% reported.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45565684

How many people don't report crimes of theft or financial misdeeds that have been committed against them?

You are really comparing apples and oranges.

And people are unlikely to advance a charge of sexual harassment in order to just get even with someone who has done them wrong in some way. It's a hugely stressful and time-consuming thing to do, the complainant is unlikely to be believed in the absence of solid evidence (which is usually unavailable), the accused will most likely get off should the case be investigated or tried, and the accuser may be shamed and demeaned. Dr. Ford got death threats for coming forward about Kavanaugh, and her motives were genuine.



Oh, that's rich. Woman are charging men with sexual misconduct because they are malicious or misogynistic. In saying that, you deny the prevalence and severity of sexual harassment in the workplace, include sports workplaces.
You are trivializing a serious matter and engaging in victim-blaming.

And even if women are malicious or misogynistic, it would not follow that this would lead them to put forth a sexual harassment allegation because of the reasons mentioned above.

And you do know that very few men of the total male population are actually ever accused of sexual misconduct? The number is far fewer than the incidences of sexual misconduct, because so many such incidences go unreported. The the number of those accused who actually are investigated or have their tried are even fewer. And among those, the number who receive any sort of punishment yet even fewer.



Throughout the world many women live in fear of men, because they have no recourse should a man harm, violate or threaten them.

In some parts of the world women fear advancing a sexual harassment allegation because it would put their jobs on their line. And fear bosses/colleagues who do not respect them.

It’s easy to misunderstand each other when emotions are running high. You post makes fine points on their own, but they are not relevant to my posts. I was not talking about ‘women’ or or the accusers — I was talking about the psychology of third party observers, eg the public, FSU posters, skating fans.

 

[judiz]

That's not true. Particularly with men, suicide can be a spur of the moment decision brought on by sudden changes in status - losing a job, losing a large amount of money, or the end of a relationship. When I was in high school a friend of mine hung himself from a tree in a park because his girlfriend broke up with him. He committed suicide within a few hours of the breakup, and there was no chance for anyone to intervene because we didn't know what had happened.

Yes, some suicides are spur of the moment but many are thought out and planned. My husband’s was one. A lot of people who commit suicide are in deep emotional or physical pain and they tend to hide that pain from everyone, including friends and family. We may never know what drove John to take his life, the face he showed in public was just that, a public face. We will never know the pain he was suffering internally and these allegations may had been the final straw.

 

[nlloyd]

Moved from the condolences thread:

Suggesting to keep the name of the accused hidden until they are proven guilty maybe not the best idea, but in no way this is equal to victim-shaming or blaming SafeSport for conducting an investigation. Isn't it obvious?

Yes, these are two different things. However, if the accused is innocent until proven guilty, so are the accusers or potential victims. Those who assert that Coughlin couldn't possible be guilty are implying that the accusers are guilty of deception. Some have gone so far as to call them "liars" - not on this forum but in social media posts. It is possible to express sorrow at John's passing, offer condolences John's family and friends, and to remember the John you knew (as Gracie Gold did), without asserting that he was innocent and thus implying his accusers are lying. The latter approach provides a springboard to more overt instances of victim blaming.

 

[VGThuy]

It’s easy to misunderstand each other when emotions are running high. You post makes fine points on their own, but they are not relevant to my posts. I was not talking about ‘women’ or or the accusers — I was talking about the psychology of third party observers, eg the public, FSU posters, skating fans.

I think it's kind of hard to separate malice and misogyny when the nature of sexual assault is so deeply rooted into that and the way people view women accusers and sexual crimes is rooted in that. The way people easily dismiss crimes of a sexual nature unless they happen to children (some times) or are incredibly heinous or happen to a sympathetic victim with an already demonized alleged perpetrator. I think whether people are willing to believe the victim or perpetrator is deeply rooted in people's inherent biases and how they view the accused based on factors that mirror how our criminal justice system unevenly treats people based on physical characteristics and socio-educational-economic backgrounds in general. Certain types of men get champions who do not personally know them or actually involved to really quickly and a sort of army forms to try to prove the allegations are false and a campaign happens against the accusers.

 

[PRlady]

That's not true. Particularly with men, suicide can be a spur of the moment decision brought on by sudden changes in status - losing a job, losing a large amount of money, or the end of a relationship. When I was in high school a friend of mine hung himself from a tree in a park because his girlfriend broke up with him. He committed suicide within a few hours of the breakup, and there was no chance for anyone to intervene because we didn't know what had happened.

This, incidentally, is why gun suicides are predominately male and more “successful” than other methods. Having a gun in easy reach is one of the biggest factors in impulse suicide. Women are more likely to accumulate pills over time, leaving space for recovery from the suicidal impulse.

 

[judiz]

This, incidentally, is why gun suicides are predominately male and more “successful” than other methods. Having a gun in easy reach is one of the biggest factors in impulse suicide. Women are more likely to accumulate pills over time, leaving space for recovery from the suicidal impulse.

I am in an online support group for those who lost loved ones to suicide. From time to time a newcomer joins the group and asks how we lost our loved one. I read from a lot of posts that moms and grandmothers used a gun. Not that many for pills unless accompanied by hanging or gunshot because as you wrote, pills do leave space for recovery.

 

[breathesgelatin]

I'm horrified by some of the things going on in this thread, but think it should stay open so we can bring issues to light within our community.

It is disgusting the way some people are making assumptions about the accusers. I can't help but wonder if we knew who the accusers were, if the accusers happened to be well-known skaters, if some people would change their tune.

 

[babayaga]

Moved from the condolences thread:



Yes, these are two different things. However, if the accused is innocent until proven guilty, so are the accusers or potential victims. Those who assert that Coughlin couldn't possible be guilty are implying that the accusers are guilty of deception. Some have gone so far as to call them "liars" - not on this forum but in social media posts. It is possible to express sorrow at John's passing, offer condolences John's family and friends, and to remember the John you knew (as Gracie Gold did), without asserting that he was innocent and thus implying his accusers are lying. The latter approach provides a springboard to more overt instances of victim blaming.

Well, I agree with everything you wrote here. It's just none of what you describe was said or implied in the mourning thread. Going to a random forum and a random thread without reading the previous discussion and blaming posters of victim-shaming is disrespectful and stupid to put it mildly.

 

[vesperholly]

Also, every day newspapers, television broadcasts, Internet posts, Tweets, etc. are full of stories that contain wording like "Jane Doe, 35, of Everytown was charged with [name of crime] and will appear in court on [date]". Jane Doe hasn't been convicted, but her name and what she's accused of is being made public. That's legal, and it's part of the public record. And Jane might lose her job or have trouble getting a job because of that information.

Those reports of arrests/charges/indictments are made public record because they have to pass the scrutiny of a police officer, a prosecutor, and/or a grand jury. Professionals who are trained with clear procedures and rules to follow - an official record, the means to respond to charges, legal representation, etc.

https://www.federalcharges.com/indicted-vs-charged-mean/

SafeSport's policies concerns me. "The U.S. Center for SafeSport is an independent nonprofit committed to ending all forms of abuse in sport." So, they are an advocacy group ... which wields a lot of power and has very little in the way of consequences. To report someone, you literally fill out a form on their website, which I assume would kick off an investigation. They are publishing accusations against people but what is their basis? How do they decide that a complaint is valid enough to restrict and suspend an athlete, but not yet ready for police involvement?

Making a complaint on a website is not the same as making a complaint to the police. I understand that victims can be very scared and need SafeSport to step in to help them. It is absolutely important to have an avenue to encourage reporting. If these are not criminal complaints with immediate concerns, like sexual assault/abuse, but ethical ones, perhaps privacy should stand until the matter can be more fully investigated.

 

[nlloyd]

Well, I agree with everything you wrote here. It's just none of what you describe was said or implied in the mourning thread. Going to a random forum and a random thread without reading the previous discussion and blaming posters of victim-shaming is disrespectful and stupid to put it mildly.

Here is the context for the discussion, babayaga:

I am choosing to remember him for the positive impact he had on my life and so many others until there is any solid evidence that should make me feel otherwise.

That is a perfectly good position to take as long as you don't make the mistake of declaring the accusations against him, from whoever they come from, not worthy of being investigate.

The accuser/s deserve to have their stories

I don't understand who you are directing your posts to since before your messages there was not a single poster shaming the accusers or claiming that reports should not be investigated. People expressed very different thoughts and suggestions than those things you wrote.

It must be noted that you seemed to equate dots' post with victim shaming. That does not look like an accurate reading to me, in retrospect.

With regard to moving the discussion from the "John has died" thread. It was the request of a moderator that we keep that thread for condolences and use this one for discussion of the process.

It may be a good idea to read this thread, also.

 

[babayaga]

nlloyd, you left out this:

Is anyone else disgusted by the attitude of many in the skating community? Fans in this very forum and some skaters alike.

While John's passing is a very tragic event, there is a clear narrative going on with certain people trying to paint the situation as unfair. The truth is that we know very little about the accusation, but we do know that it was strong enough that he was suspended.

One's appreciation for a skater should never lead to shaming accusers. Period. This is the type of attitude that prevents victims from coming forward.

 

[ZilphaK]

This is going to be some thread drift, but... I woke up thinking about all this today. In the past five years, two families I know have dealt with the devastating agony that comes after suicide; in both these cases, it was a young man in his early 20s. Two older men in my neighborhood have also died by suicide. All four men died via a self-inflicted gun wound (which is a can of worms discussion I won't open here, but it's notable in the statistics and part of the overall changes that need happen). In the United States, suicide is the second leading cause of death in people ages 15-24. But rates are high in every age group, especially for men. Although, rates for women are increasing; a college-aged woman in our neighborhood recently died by suicide, and a local 13yo girl killed herself after the death of her younger brother due to cancer.

I have two daughters and a son. People always joke with me, "Oh, daughters! Good luck with teen pregnancy!" That's pretty close to the least of my worries with my children.

There is an epidemic in the US right now. No idea what the answer is. To say, "Be watchful and careful with each other" add lend to the pain and guilt when family members and friends then feel like they are at fault for not doing enough. But we do still need to be watchful and careful with each other.

We do need to keep working to reduce the stigma of needing help, of not always being "strong" -- although we celebrate and reward "being strong" in our young athletes; congratulate them for working through pain. We need to find some balance here -- youth sports impart so many positives, but after all, it's just a game.

And mental health care -- again, not wanting to open any political debates, but we need to do better here, in helping people afford it, in making it accessible, in being open with our struggles in finding help so that the accessibility problem is on the forefront of change.

And because this is my personal cause, we need to be so cautious with sports and head injuries. Depression and personality changes are all so common after a concussion, and in some sports, kids are suffering multiple concussions before they even graduate high school. The risk of suicide increases after a head injury, at all ages.

This is all so sad. And no matter what the circumstances before this happened, it would be a shame for nothing to change, even in some small way.

(sorry, catching up and see this is being discussed, so not as much thread drift as I thought)

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

That's not true. Particularly with men, suicide can be a spur of the moment decision brought on by sudden changes in status - losing a job, losing a large amount of money, or the end of a relationship. When I was in high school a friend of mine hung himself from a tree in a park because his girlfriend broke up with him. He committed suicide within a few hours of the breakup, and there was no chance for anyone to intervene because we didn't know what had happened.

I was saying that John's suicide was not an inconsequential side effect of the situation. Not about HOW the decision was made. I agree that suicides can be instant emotional responses to negative stimuli.

 

[nlloyd]

I was saying that John's suicide was not an inconsequential side effect of the situation. Not about HOW the decision was made. I agree that suicides can be instant emotional responses to negative stimuli.

A side effect of what situation? I don't think any of us knows why John committed suicide.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

A side effect of what situation? I don't think any of us knows why John committed suicide.

Read the statement by the family. It makes it pretty clear why and what "situation" we are talking about. I believe that all parties in this tragedy should be treated with care. I believe suicide is a serious issue not to be taken lightly. Is that offensive somehow?

 

[nlloyd]

Read the statement by the family. It makes it pretty clear why and what "situation" we are talking about. I believe that all parties in this tragedy should be treated with care. I believe suicide is a serious issue not to be taken lightly. Is that offensive somehow?

Could you provide a link or paraphrase? I have read his sister's initial statement and Dalilah's but the former does not address the issue and the latter doesn't provide evidence; they are interpretations or assumptions.

 

[Mayra]

There has been debate over how TSL and CB reported Coughlin's suspension.

What would everyone's opinion be if TSL and CB restricted its reporting to saying only that he was suspended by USFS and then refusing to address the subject at all?

Unpopular opinion on this board, but IMO a lack of transparency from a governing body such as the USFS is simply not an option. Likewise, a decision that isn't " better safe than sorry" by SafeSport in the age of Larry Nassar/#Metoo is simply not an option either. This includes being being open and transparent while investigations are ongoing and have been escalated. In general we are blinded by the issue because John was such a well loved personality in the sport and because of this tragic outcome, but IMO the right decision was made by the USFS, PSA and SafeSport to publicize it's decisions.

It's a shame that TSL and CB, two of the biggest sensationalists in the sport, picked up on the story the way they did, but to think that this wouldn't or shouldn't be reported on is dangerous IMO. Lack of reporting and transparency is what lead to the toxic and gross negligence in the gymnastics community. Once the investigation escalated and the interim suspension was handed down, burying our head in the sand was never going to be an option IMO.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Could you provide a link or paraphrase? I have read his sister's initial statement and Dalilah's but the former does not address the issue and the latter doesn't provide evidence; they are interpretations or assumptions.

You can read it on People.com. Regardless, I really don't understand your point. Do you think he killed himslelf not because of the investigation and ensuing publicity / loss of employment? P.S. No, I am not saying the victims should not be protected, the abuse should be tolerated, the secrecy had to be maintained above all, and that Coughlin was not guilty. I do not know. I am simply saying lets not take a young man's suicide lightly.

 

[skateboy]

For those who have not seen this, Mervin Tran left a lengthy and thoughtful message on Twitter (in 3 or 4 parts, click the arrows on the side to read the complete post). He addresses John, the act of suicide, the Me Too movement and more:

https://twitter.com/skate_moivo

 

[dots]

Some in the skating community I've been in touch with say that John was frustrated because the exact nature of the allegations against him had not even been revealed to him. We don't know for a fact that he was kept informed all along either. We don't actually know anything for a fact other than that a young man who was beloved by many is no longer here.

You need to speak with better sources.

A scenario where John would not be informed of the nature of his own investigation is so far fetched, it doesn't merit consideration. Anyone here could actually pick up the phone, talk to Safesport, and ask them for a guideline of their process of investigation.

I could entertain the idea that there was a waiting period when Safesports hold on to information as the investigations were taking place (interviews, background check, etc...) No one suspends you without stating their reasons and findings. The legal ramifications against Safesport would have been so great, John could have taken them to the cleaners and retire early.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Posting in this thread v. the other thread out of respect.

B) You cannot compare the John Coughlin case to what happened with Larry Nassar. There was evidence of wrong doing that was ignored for 30 years in that case, with hundreds of survivors. Absolutely no evidence of any wrong doing on the part of John Coughlin has been reported. To drag his name through the mud with no evidence is terrible.

We don't know what evidence SafeSport does or does not have. But suppose there is evidence -- e.g., let's say there's video, or text messages, or witness testimony. Should SafeSport upload all that for everyone to see? Summarize the reasons why they have elevated the case to interim suspension?

I agree with you that, "[w]e have no idea if SafeSport acted appropriately." We assume they did. That could be a wrong assumption, and I would be in favor of an independent body looking at the evidence that SafeSport had at the time they made their decisions. If it's a correct assumption that SafeSport had evidence, then SafeSport was protecting Coughlin's privacy, not abusing it, by not making the evidence public. Releasing more details would not be helpful to the accused.

There's simply no way to know if SafeSport's decision was substantiated without (1) severely violating Coughlin's own privacy, or (2) having a second independent panel look at it, which still requires everyone to accept a decision without knowing the facts. I'd be in favor of (2), and of objective standards published as to what each of the statuses mean.

I think it was inappropriate to make comparisons to convicted abusers, and especially to bring up Gordeeva & Grinkov in a disparaging way! That G&G fell in love in the 1980s while there was a four-year age difference between them and Katia was 16, has no specific bearing on any allegation being investigated by SafeSport in 2018-2019, nor on anything to do with John's death.

I didn't watch TSL and don't plan to, but it may have relevance. A 20-year-old having a sexual relationship with a 16-year-old would be statutory rape in a lot of states, and would be reportable to SafeSport. Christopher Pottenger was suspended by the PSA for having a consensual sexual relationship with a 16-year-old skater when he was 23: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sport...hip-underage-skater-draws-scrutiny/550505002/. Pottenger was a coach, but not the individual's coach, and the act was legal in Delaware. SafeSport was looking into this, eight years later. It is important to remember that not all complaints are "Nassar" level, and some of them may be about things that (1) are legal, and (2) some reasonable people may consider ethical even if professional guidelines say otherwise. I don't think Christopher Pottenger is a monster because he violated the PSA's code of ethics. He made a mistake, he was punished, and hopefully he learned. People make mistakes; people deserve the opportunity to redeem themselves and move on.

 

[skateboy]

I don't think Christopher Pottenger is a monster because he violated the PSA's code of ethics. He made a mistake, he was punished, and hopefully he learned. People make mistakes; people deserve the opportunity to redeem themselves and move on.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here but, if the relationship was legal AND consensual, how did Pottenger "make a mistake?"