UPDATED: Jason Brown to Brian Orser (official)

[RoseRed]

Realistically, though, does Jason have the luxury of a couple of years to make those adjustments? I don't mean that he's going to physically fall apart or anything [knocks wood], but he's been competing internationally since 2013, and there are newer skaters coming up in the US and internationally who are improving very quickly. I would love to see him make huge improvements, but I also feel that in some ways he has to step it up fast, because the rest of the world is catching up.

Of the new guys coming up right now, we have Alexei Krasnozhon (who I love) who's currently struggling coming back from injury. He's closer to having quads than Jason, and is a lot younger so easier for him to get it, but he actually doesn't have a lot of clean quads in comp. He also doesn't have the quality of Jason on his other elements and presentation. Then in juniors, the top guy right now is Camden Pulkinen. He's never done or attempted a quad in competition as far as I know, so he's not really ahead of Jason in that regard. Tomoki Hiwatashi does have the one quad in comp. Andrew Torgashev is very nice, but very inconsistent. But none of these guys are Nathan or even Vincent with all the quads. Now, internationally is another story, but nationally, I would say Jason is capable of keeping up (doesn't mean he will, but it's very doable).

 

[overedge]

I guess I am assuming he doesn't get a quad. Will he be on a World's podium? Not unless there is a major splat fest in the competition. But his artistry is beautiful and that component score could keep him in the top twelve. Maybe it isn't always about the gold but competing well and being a productive member of the team. I guess time will tell.

I totally agree that it's not all about the quad or the gold, and that there's a lot of honour in competing well and consistently. And I also totally agree that his artistry >>>>> a lot of other guys' artistry. But if he has been competing internationally for five years and still seems to be struggling to make the big breakthrough - I don't know. At times I think that maybe it isn't him, and maybe the skating world and/or judges just aren't paying as much attention to him as they should be. That's why I wonder if he has the luxury of time to develop, if there's a feeling out there that he should already have developed more by now.

 

[Cachoo]

I totally agree that it's not all about the quad or the gold, and that there's a lot of honour in competing well and consistently. And I also totally agree that his artistry >>>>> a lot of other guys' artistry. But if he has been competing internationally for five years and still seems to be struggling to make the big breakthrough - I don't know. At times I think that maybe it isn't him, and maybe the skating world and/or judges just aren't paying as much attention to him as they should be. That's why I wonder if he has the luxury of time to develop, if there's a feeling out there that he should already have developed more by now.

On the last question regarding development---is that only for the quad or are there other major weaknesses in his skating?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I guess I am assuming he doesn't get a quad. Will he be on a World's podium? Not unless there is a major splat fest in the competition. But his artistry is beautiful and that component score could keep him in the top twelve. Maybe it isn't always about the gold but competing well and being a productive member of the team. I guess time will tell.

Maybe it's just my Type A personality kicking in, and I understand that every athlete sets themselves different personal goals. But being there simply to help out and make sure Team USA keeps its maximum number of spots, wouldn't be enough to satisfy me. It would be so difficult to put in as much money, time and effort, just to furnish someone else's star potential.

Too bad this isn't 2008 or 2009. Jason would have had it sewn up.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I totally agree that it's not all about the quad or the gold, and that there's a lot of honour in competing well and consistently. And I also totally agree that his artistry >>>>> a lot of other guys' artistry. But if he has been competing internationally for five years and still seems to be struggling to make the big breakthrough - I don't know. At times I think that maybe it isn't him, and maybe the skating world and/or judges just aren't paying as much attention to him as they should be. That's why I wonder if he has the luxury of time to develop, if there's a feeling out there that he should already have developed more by now.

Agreed. Back in 2011, he and his former coach were at the Junior Grand Prix of Brisbane. Though he didn't try the 3A there, they were working on it (and landing it two-footed) at every practice. You would think with the IJS rewarding attempts, that they would have included it, to get him used to the jump in competition. Seven years later and it is still his nemesis. It can't help that Brown is competing against skaters who have been training (and including) quads in and since their teens.

Last year he was second at Skate Canada. This year, even with the rule changes surrounding quads, he is sixth. Maybe the reality is that at 23 going on 24, he has maximised his jumping potential.

 

[barbarafan]

Baby steps as Orser said---I think we should be revisiting Jason and the move a couple of years from now after he has gotten used to his new team and, more importantly, had a chance to rework his technique. That must take time and if he learns more slowly then he'll need more time. Here is a question though: With his other skating skills wouldn't he still be in say---the top twelve---if he never attempted another quad but performed cleaned programs? I'm not talking about what Jason wants with that question. I love watching his skating and I would be happen to see him perform even if he finished last. I've seen competitions when I preferred him or Adam artistically even when they weren't landing quads. I hate to see him be crushed by the quad when there is so much more to see when it comes to Jason's skills and artistry.

Except will you get the chance to see him skate without it? He did not make team last year. His quad was always close.His jump technique was fine for triples but to do the quad you have to change it a bit. Before Orser takes on anyone he finds out what they are looking for in their skating...their goals etc. He is not ching ching at the cash. When a skater plateaus out he tells them he has done all he can to up the ante. If a skater is not engaged in being the best they can be and will not work hard on their goals he suggests they could do better elsewhere. If he agreed to take Jason on it is because he saw things he could change in his skating which would enable him to reach his goals. Jason is such a beautiful skater. If he could do a quad triple in the short and at least one quad in the long he would be in the mix again. Right now he has to think hard as he skates so muscle memory does not flip him back to prior technique. It will take time and in the meantime his muscles he needs are being fine tuned to not only allow him to do the jumps...but to not be injured in doing so. Health first.

 

[misskarne]

Realistically, you have to wonder what Jason's and Team Orser's long-term goals are. Without an actual quad attempt of any sort at Skate Canada, it seems even his moneymaker PCS is levelling out under the revised IJS.

I just don't see a world medal, let alone a world team spot, happening now.

He attempted it. He psyched himself out of it. You could tell. I'm sure we'll see it again in France. He'll be fine. He's a hard worker, whatever anyone may think, and he's actually a really pretty good jumper if you take your eyes off the quads for a sec.

"let alone a world team spot"? Who's beating him then? There are three spots, remember. Nathan's a given, you'd think. Vincent? His URs could easily do him in. Alexei? Timothy? Alexander Johnson? Camden? Really? You really think any of those guys are gonna score bigger than a clean Jason, even sans quad?

Everyone's got their eyes on the quad (you better have complained this much about Adam's lack thereof as well). The actual, telling, real signal, was the absolute frickin' money 3A-3T. The US haven't seen one like that since Joshua stopped doing them. That was the signal that when he's less nervous and more comfortable, he's gonna be right as rain.

 

[mackiecat]

Unless he implodes at Nationals, Brown will be in the world team. I predict he will be 2nd unless the tech team ignores Vincent’s UR

 

[Yazmeen]

I'll preferably watch Jason without quads than watch Vincent Zhou land "not really a quad after not really a quad" any day.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

Of the new guys coming up right now, we have Alexei Krasnozhon (who I love) who's currently struggling coming back from injury. He's closer to having quads than Jason, and is a lot younger so easier for him to get it, but he actually doesn't have a lot of clean quads in comp. He also doesn't have the quality of Jason on his other elements and presentation. Then in juniors, the top guy right now is Camden Pulkinen. He's never done or attempted a quad in competition as far as I know, so he's not really ahead of Jason in that regard. Tomoki Hiwatashi does have the one quad in comp. Andrew Torgashev is very nice, but very inconsistent. But none of these guys are Nathan or even Vincent with all the quads. Now, internationally is another story, but nationally, I would say Jason is capable of keeping up (doesn't mean he will, but it's very doable).

Jason is in another class... you cannot compare is skating skills and skating quality to Alexei Krasnozhon.... Not that he is not a good skater but there is a simple joy in watching Jason skate, it's just beautiful. Baby steps I agree. They must have a long term goal. Wishing him best of luck, keep all the good you have and work on what needs to be improved, Jason is in a good place.

 

[AYS]

Except will you get the chance to see him skate without it? He did not make team last year. .

His failure to make the team last year wasn't really down to the quad/not quad. He completely blew his lp - 5 major jump errors, including 2 total pops (singles). He would have been second in that lp with a typical Jason skate (typical meaning prior to last season), even without a quad.

I do hope he can get a handle on it, because Jason with even one quad per program, though it will not land him on top of the world podium, would make him a force to be reckoned with. Interesting that he's focusing on the salchow after years of trying with the toe. He must be having more success with that one in practice, maybe? Or perhaps the toe needs a more significant technique overhaul.

 

[Tavi]

Realistically, you have to wonder what Jason's and Team Orser's long-term goals are. Without an actual quad attempt of any sort at Skate Canada, it seems even his moneymaker PCS is levelling out under the revised IJS.

I just don't see a world medal, let alone a world team spot, happening now.

Don’t you think it’s a bit soon to judge?

Brian has said in the past that he needs about 18 months with a skater. Jason has only been at TCC for a few months. We don’t know whether he’s progressing slower than Brian’s “average” skater, but we do know his jump technique is being totally revamped. Among other things, they’re changing when he initiates rotation - which is a huge change.

Jason has said that he’s struggling between the old and the new ways of doing things. Even so, skating first in the FS, he still managed to get the highest GOE of his career on the 3A-3T and 3Lo, and only Shoma & Keegan had higher PCS. Yeah it’s lower than usual - but given the situation, not really surprising.

By the way, Brian’s goal for Jason is to make the World Team this season.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Maybe it's just my Type A personality kicking in, and I understand that every athlete sets themselves different personal goals. But being there simply to help out and make sure Team USA keeps its maximum number of spots, wouldn't be enough to satisfy me. It would be so difficult to put in as much money, time and effort, just to furnish someone else's star potential.

I'm glad you're not making the decisions. Since you mentioned "someone else's star potential", that leaves USFS, which, for the small percentage of money that they actually give to skaters, aside from discretionary money given to young, developing skaters, is based on strict criteria, ie, results from the prior season, and Brown has earned every penny he's gotten from them for at least a decade. This season, he was guaranteed one GP spot by being 10th on the SB list, above Rippon and Aaron, and even above Chan, and got a second, like every other GP-bound Man in the Top 24 SB who didn't earn two from 2018 Worlds, and, hence, earned his spot at Champs Camp.

If his parents are still contributing -- he made ~ $30K in prize money last year, between GP and 4C's, plus shows in Japan and Stars on Ice, and at this point, he may be self-supporting -- it's really up to them, and the US dollar is strong against the Canadian dollar.

 

[mattiecat13]

I love Jason - he's my favorite USA male skater. But I saw his LP live at Skate Canada and it is horrendous. The music cut between Old Friends and Hazy Shade of Winter is downright jarring and I don't understand the thought process that put these two songs together. If David Wilson wanted a Simon & Garfunkel song, I could see him doing a great job with Sound of Silence or Bridge Over Troubled Water, especially if he can channel his emotions from last season.

 

[Bonita]

I adore Jason's skating. He's my favorite male skater. But that long program music is just awful. I could barely hear it and it was so drab. I could have just as easily enjoyed it with the sound off just watching Jason's beautiful edge quality and spins. I know every program can't be Riverdance, but I could listen to that muzak as a sleeping aid.

 

[overedge]

On the last question regarding development---is that only for the quad or are there other major weaknesses in his skating?

This is the thing. TBH I think his skating is just fine without the quad. I would sooner watch him do a beautiful triple cleanly than watch someone do a messy quad. But I don't think that's the mindset in skating right now. I don't see his lack of a quad as a problem, but there may be other skaters with quads and acceptable (maybe not great) artistry, and that's what seems to be seen as the desirable complete package.

I'm not trying to diss Jason because I think he's a fantastic skater. If I ran the world, he would be one of the top skaters in the world. But he doesn't seem to have all of what is being sought, and he hasn't seemed to have it for a couple of year (I mean "have it" by the standards that the men seem to be evaluated against). If he has maxed out his jumping ability and doesn't get further than he has already, that says more about what skating values, or doesn't value, than about the quality of his skills.

ETA: And yes, he has only been with Orser for a few months, but he's been an international-level skater for nearly five years. When we look at "how much time does he have" IMO we need to look at the arc of his entire career, not just this year.

 

[Sylvia]

@overedge, just curious... when you posted earlier that Jason "still seems to be struggling to make the big breakthrough" -- what do you mean by that exactly? You also wrote that "maybe ... judges just aren't paying as much attention to him as they should be" and I don't think this is accurate.

 

[skateboy]

Much has been said about Jason's "reaching his potential."

Is it possible that maybe he already has reached his potential? Jason is a wonderfully artistic skater and has done some fantastic programs (okay, this season aside). He's one of the best men spinners we've ever seen.

If "reaching his potential" means getting enough jump content to compete for a world or Olympic podium, that may simply never be in the cards for Jason.

 

[Fiero425]

Much has been said about Jason's "reaching his potential."

Is it possible that maybe he already has reached his potential? Jason is a wonderfully artistic skater and has done some fantastic programs (okay, this season aside). He's one of the best men spinners we've ever seen.

If "reaching his potential" means getting enough jump content to compete for a world or Olympic podium, that may simply never be in the cards for Jason.

Some fans think skaters can hang on forever like Kwan or Eldridge and still be competitive to the end! Those kinds of skaters are rare and far between! Some may hang around longer than they should, but last season's result from Minor at Nat'ls only got him an honorable mention! He couldn't be trusted to do it again and Rippon was sent in his place at the Olympics! As much as people love Brown, those glory days are behind him and there's really no other place to go but down! He can keep his style and grace, but the jumps just won't be there for him unfortunately! Check him out at SOI one of these days if they still exist then!

 

[Sylvia]

Is it possible that maybe he already has reached his potential?

Yes, but it's also possible he has not reached his full potential and that's why he decided to take a chance and make the move to Toronto. My impression is Jason strongly desires to have another opportunity to make an Olympic team and IMO that's a worthy enough goal to continue/strive to improve in the next few years.

 

[Fiero425]

Yes, but it's also possible he has not reached his full potential and that's why he decided to take a chance and make the move to Toronto. My impression is Jason strongly desires to have another opportunity to make an Olympic team and IMO that's a worthy enough goal to continue/strive to improve in the next few years.

I'm just going by what I've been seeing the last couple years! The artistic side of Brown's skating will keep him in the top 10, but he needs to do a lot more than he's able on the technical side! He won't even get a sniff of the podium without a reliable QUAD and he has little hope of developing one at this late stage in his career!

 

[Sylvia]

He won't even get a sniff of the podium without a reliable QUAD and he has little hope of developing one at this late stage in his career!

At least you didn't write no hope.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'm glad you're not making the decisions.

No, it isn't my decision. Much as I love his performance skills, I'm just being honest about Jason's competiitve chances at this point.

If I presented you with a wheelbarrow containing $500K to spend at your leisure, and the same wheelbarrow five years from now on the condition that it is thrown over the side of a cliff, which would you take?

Skating at the elite level is a horrendously expensive sport to pursue, and a crap shoot at the best of times.

 

[CaliSteve]

On the last question regarding development---is that only for the quad or are there other major weaknesses in his skating?

Being consistent with his triples, especially the Triple Axel.

 

[WildRose]

I love Jason - he's my favorite USA male skater. But I saw his LP live at Skate Canada and it is horrendous. The music cut between Old Friends and Hazy Shade of Winter is downright jarring and I don't understand the thought process that put these two songs together. If David Wilson wanted a Simon & Garfunkel song, I could see him doing a great job with Sound of Silence or Bridge Over Troubled Water, especially if he can channel his emotions from last season.

I always assumed the ‘Old Friends’ section was Jason’s way of thanking and saying good bye to his former coach, and that the “Hazy Shade of Winter” reflected his move to a new life training in Toronto. IRC his coach Tracy Wilson even mentioned something about him leaving his old friends when she was doing the commentary for this program on CTV. I like Jason’s long program and look forward to seeing it progress as they add to it through the season once he’s more comfortable with the new jump technique.

 

[overedge]

@overedge, just curious... when you posted earlier that Jason "still seems to be struggling to make the big breakthrough" -- what do you mean by that exactly?

I meant that he has been a senior international competitor for several years, and his placements haven't significantly changed over the course of that time. "Struggle" might not be the right word - I think he is working hard and making some very visible improvements. But they don't seem to be making a difference in his results, which perhaps is an issue with how judges are evaluating him, not with the quality of his performances.

You also wrote that "maybe ... judges just aren't paying as much attention to him as they should be" and I don't think this is accurate.

What I meant by "paying attention" is that I don't think his exceptional artistry is getting the rewards (points) it should be getting. This too may be an issue with how IJS is being applied rather than with what Jason is doing.

To be clear, I am not saying he is washed up or that he should give up and go away. I think he is a fantastic skater and I've thought that since he was a junior. I think he is one of the best male skaters in the US if not the world, and I want him to hang in there for as long as he wants to. If he's happy with his placements and progress, that's the most important thing, but it would be nice to see him appropriately recognized for what he does so well.

 

[Tavi]

Errr...how many of you who are convinced it’s all over for Jason ever thought Keegan Messing would get it together at 26? If you’d like some perspective on where he was a few years ago, take a look at his protocol for 2014 US Nats, where he had a total score of 197.45, fell twice, and popped four jumps. Keegan has been a senior international competitor since 2012. Give Jason some time before you write him off.

 

[Spun Silver]

No, it isn't my decision. Much as I love his performance skills, I'm just being honest about Jason's competiitve chances at this point.

If I presented you with a wheelbarrow containing $500K to spend at your leisure, and the same wheelbarrow five years from now on the condition that it is thrown over the side of a cliff, which would you take?

Skating at the elite level is a horrendously expensive sport to pursue, and a crap shoot at the best of times.

You could say that almost any skater is throwing money off a cliff as only a few will win the Olympics or see much direct gain from all they put into the sport. Jason has many fans around the world. Competing keeps him in the forefront of their attention. I am sure it has lucrative results for him in terms of his show opportunities, at least compared to many other skaters, even some who throw down the quads. He is kind of like Misha Ge, popular and successful without challenging for the top of the podium. Whatever he does with Brian, I hope he can leverage his skating career into another area of the sport after he retires as Misha has done (if that's what he wants).

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

You could say that almost any skater is throwing money off a cliff as only a few will win the Olympics or see much direct gain from all they put into the sport. Jason has many fans around the world. Competing keeps him in the forefront of their attention. I am sure it has lucrative results for him in terms of his show opportunities, at least compared to many other skaters, even some who throw down the quads. He is kind of like Misha Ge, popular and successful without challenging for the top of the podium. Whatever he does with Brian, I hope he can leverage his skating career into another area of the sport after he retires as Misha has done (if that's what he wants).

I guess I'm looking at it from the point of view that Brown should transition into a show career...well, now.

 

[Tavi]

I guess I'm looking at it from the point of view that Brown should transition into a show career...well, now.

He doesn’t want to, though. He was devastated after missing the Olympic Team and spent two months trying to decide if he wanted to continue on in competitive skating. This was his decision.