Someday could a skater ever be considered best ever without an Olympic Gold

[savchenkoboss]

If this was just ten years ago, this whole thread would only be about Michelle Kwan with a bit of Kurt Browning, Irina, etc. sprinkled in.

There was actualy a time anyone considered Irina Slutskaya the best skater ever! This is a bit stunning to me. She has only 2 world titles, 0 Olympic Golds, she did win the prestigious Grand Prix final 4 times but others have more. Her most historic feat is winning Europeans 7 times, but Witt winning 6 straight is arguably more impressive. And she was not a popular skater, atleast not on sites like this, as most people didnt like her skating style and lack of polish and beauty on ice. Even someone like Cohen was often more popular, despite being way less successful, due to the beauty of her skating which many skating fans seem to prefer.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Considering how much effort has been spent on P&C vs V&M, I don’t think any of this GOAT talk is about Rittberger, Paulson or Salchow.

Just curious which of V&M or P&C do you prefer. I prefer V&M at this point, I find their chemistry better and more artistic, and some of their technical things like twizzles are better. Most of all their short dances tend to be more solid overall, P&C often dont even win the SD at Europeans, and it is the main reason V&M won most of their head to head meetings with P&C in their return as they lost 3 of 5 FDs.

However I think V&M are at their all time peak while P&C still arent close to theirs. I predict in 2 or 3 years I will find P&C better (ability wise). Although I am not sure if their chemistry on ice will ever quite match Klimova & Ponomarenko, V&M or T&D as his being gay makes it impossible to present even the guise of love the way V&M or T&D do on the ice, the same way the Duchensays and Shibutanis are limited in that respect by being siblings.

 

[giselle23]

In Kwan's case the combination of not winning the Olympics and winning the Grand Prix final only once makes it more clear she isn't in contention. At 2 of the 3 biggest events in the sport she isn't even close to being one of the best ever, only at one (worlds) is she up there and even there she is far from the most dominant per say, her 5 titles is almost strictly due to longevity (which is in part due to the lack of an OGM in the first place). That alone would take her out of serious consideration for being GOAT IMO. Then you have an event like Four Continents, she never even skated there. So really other than worlds where was she even dominant, especialy relative to other greats. Of course my opinion isn't important, the consensus opinion is, like how for instance I don't consider V&M as the GOAT at all, or even top 3 probably, but inspite of my opinion they are atleast close to the consensus GOAT along with maybe T&D, but that obviously doesn't apply to Kwan, Browning, Papadakis & Cizeron (yet) or any skater with no OGM, even the better suggestions of this thread thus far .

I'm glad you said IMO, because the lack of GPF titles is hardly reason to discount Michelle's qualifications for GOAT--IMO. The GPF isn't even an ISU championship event, which I found out fairly recently. And Four Continents has only become somewhat important with the rise of skating in Asia, which was after Michelle's era. (Still, Ashley Wagner wanted that World medal, despite winning Four Continents and medaling on the GPF). The two biggest events in skating are the Olympics and Worlds. Some (many?) would say they are the only big events. Let's see who else can win Worlds five times and stay on the World and Olympic podiums for 9 years straight before taking Michelle out of the running.

 

[berthesghost]

Yeah, I wouldn’t count world pros, sorry, I meant to use it’s new title:gpf, toward goat ranking. No one ever put out a PR saying they’re going to skip this year’s worlds or Olys but will be at the gpf.

As for PC vs VM, for me it’s a sort of reverse Sophie’s Choice as I couldn’t care less who stays and who goes

 

[muffinplus]

Although I am not sure if their chemistry on ice will ever quite match Klimova & Ponomarenko, V&M or T&D as his being gay makes it impossible to present even the guise of love the way V&M or T&D do on the ice, the same way the Duchensays and Shibutanis are limited in that respect by being siblings.

Their programs aren't usually "love stories" so I don't know what that would have to do with anything... they did have romantic chemistry in the Mozart program.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I'm glad you said IMO, because the lack of GPF titles is hardly reason to discount Michelle's qualifications for GOAT--IMO. The GPF isn't even an ISU championship event, which I found out fairly recently. And Four Continents has only become somewhat important with the rise of skating in Asia, which was after Michelle's era. (Still, Ashley Wagner wanted that World medal, despite winning Four Continents and medaling on the GPF). The two biggest events in skating are the Olympics and Worlds. Some (many?) would say they are the only big events. Let's see who else can win Worlds five times and stay on the World and Olympic podiums for 9 years straight before taking Michelle out of the running.

Like I said in the V&M thread numerous of us mentioned their winning only 1 GPF is a mark against them being the GOAT and they even have THREE (or 2 if you just count individual, even that is pretty historic) Olympic Golds. If you dont believe me look in the thread yourself and you will see how often this comes up. So with that being said, just imagine someone with only 1 GPF and 0 Olympic Golds. That (their only 1 win at the GPF) is probably why they only have about 50% of votes as the best dance team ever now, rather than like 90% which with recency bias, and the super positive press they got post the Games, they would probably have after their historic Olympic record was completed in Pyeoncheng.

The GPF is the 3rd biggest event behind Olympics and Worlds. That is pretty much undisputed. Thus if that isnt a big event then nothing but Olympics and worlds are and most of the skaters skating and competing is irrelevant. And the 4th biggest is probably 4 Continents/Europeans, and Kwan didnt even skate in that. So really other than worlds, what case does she even have, and there are even skaters- Henie, Szabo, Heiss, who either won worlds more often or won 5 straight which is infinitely more impressive than 5 broken up over many years you would have to admit.

Kwan winning the GPF only once would hardly mean much if she won the Olympics twice or something like that. As it is she didnt ever win the Olympics, plus she won the GPF only once. The fact she didnt win the Olympics, obviously hands down the biggest event, is what makes her also not doing better at the GPF more significant. Not winning the Olympics she would really have to outshine everywhere else. She is basically only near the top in 1 major event- worlds. Everywhere else- Olympics, GPF, regular grand prix, Four Continents, World Juniors, she is either less successful or has the same success in each category than even other recent greats like Kim, Asada, Slutskaya, Medvedeva, etc... I wont bother getting into National titles since Kwan, Asada, Kim, Slutskaya, Kostner, Witt, Medvedeva, etc...and all the much older greats, all have a ton of those and win their own Nationals nearly every year they skate, so that part is a wash. I cant even name off the top of my head how many most of those have, except they all have a ton, and all win pretty much every year they compete at their own Nationals. Even Sotnikova, who is like the pariah of figure skating today, and definitely not a great even with her bogus OGM, won 6 National titles in an insanely deep field in Russia didnt she? And can probably get to 7 or 8 had she kept competing after Sochi, she has a shot in 2015 and maybe 2016, although none after that. Chan won his Nationals against the likes of Buttle, Sandhu, Reynolds, etc....10 times, but I dont think that overcomes his lack of an OGM in any GOAT discussion.

 

[giselle23]

Like I said in the V&M thread numerous of us mentioned their winning only 1 GPF is a mark against them being the GOAT and they even have THREE (or 2 if you just count individual, even that is pretty historic) Olympic Golds. If you dont believe me look in the thread yourself and you will see how often this comes up. So with that being said, just imagine someone with only 1 GPF and 0 Olympic Golds.

The GPF is the 3rd biggest event behind Olympics and Worlds. That is pretty much undisputed. Thus if that isnt a big event then nothing but Olympics and worlds are and most of the skaters skating and competing is irrelevant. And the 4th biggest is probably 4 Continents/Europeans, and Kwan didnt even skate in that. So really other than worlds, what case does she even have, and there are even skaters- Henie, Szabo, Heiss, who either won worlds more often or won 5 straight which is infinitely more impressive than 5 broken up over many years you would have to admit.

Kwan winning the GPF only once would hardly mean much if she won the Olympics twice or something like that. As it is she didnt ever win the Olympics, plus she won the GPF only once. The fact she didnt win the Olympics, obviously hands down the biggest event, is what makes her also not doing better at the GPF more significant. Not winning the Olympics she would really have to outshine everywhere else. She is basically only near the top in 1 major event- worlds. Everywhere else- Olympics, GPF, regular grand prix, Four Continents, World Juniors, she is either less successful or has the same success in each category than even other recent greats like Kim, Asada, Slutskaya, Medvedeva, etc... I wont bother getting into National titles since Kwan, Asada, Kim, Slutskaya, Kostner, Witt, Medvedeva, etc...and all the much older greats, all have a ton of those and win their own Nationals nearly every year they skate, so that part is a wash. I cant even name off the top of my head how many most of those have, except they all have a ton, and all win pretty much every year they compete at their own Nationals. Even Sotnikova, who is like the pariah of figure skating today, and definitely not a great even with her bogus OGM, won 6 National titles in an insanely deep field in Russia didnt she? Chan won his Nationals against the likes of Buttle, Sandhu, Reynolds, etc....10 times, but I dont think that overcomes his lack of an OGM in any GOAT discussion.

First of all, the GPF was basically a new event (invented by Speedy) in 1995-96, the year Michelle won it. It has never been considered at the level of a long-standing event like Worlds. It may be third in importance, but it is a very distant third. I'm sure Irina would trade the GPF medals she won over Michelle for Michelle's World titles in the same years. You say you won't bother getting into National titles but then you do. You are of course entitled to your opinion but I would bet that the consensus is that 5 World titles and a 9 year record of being on the podium at every event she entered overcomes by a lot the lack of gold medals at the GPF.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

I am of the opinion that Virtue and Moir were better skaters at 23 than Papadakis and Cizeron are right now, but I don’t think their ability to tell specific kinds of ‘love stories’ should come into that evaluation at all. Artistry and connection comes in all forms.

To answer the thread title, I don’t think any skater/team will be considered a consensus GOAT without an OGM, but then again we can’t agree on a consensus GOAT in any discipline among those in contention that do have OGMs, so I don’t see us getting anywhere on that front anytime soon

 

[VGThuy]

Kwan only competed at the GPF five times in her long career and was arguably robbed of one and won two of the three phases in the 1999-2000 one but lost the super final to what is arguably Irina’s best LP performance and with Kwan performing a so-so one. During that period she was peaking for Worlds and she usually performed better there than she did all season. As Sandra Bezic said recently, especially in an Olympic year, who cares what happens in the Grand Prix. It’s all about Worlds and the Olympics. That said the GP series and the GPF can do a lot to change the narrative but the endgame is always Worlds/Olympics.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Kwan only competed at the GPF five times in her long career and was arguably robbed of one and won two of the three phases in the 1999-2000 one but lost the super final to what is arguably Irina’s best LP performance and with Kwan performing a so-so one. During that period she was peaking for Worlds and she usually performed better there than she did all season. As Sandra Bezic said recently, especially in an Olympic year, who cares what happens in the Grand Prix. It’s all about Worlds and the Olympics. That said the GP series and the GPF can do a lot to change the narrative but the endgame is always Worlds/Olympics.

Again GPF wouldnt matter much or any if she actually won the Olympics. However she didnt win the Olympics AND she didnt do well at the GPF. Pretty desperate to try to argue someone best ever on Worlds alone when they were both clearly weaker at the Olympics (clearly the biggest event) and the events that come lower than Worlds than others even of recent times, LOL! Kwan fans always say Olympics dont matter, but now GPF doesnt matter either, regular grand prix (which Kwan often skipped and rarely dominated) doesnt, and I guess Four Continents (which Kwan never even skated so cant be important right) doesnt matter, so only Worlds and U.S Nationals matter? I guess in Kwansville land maybe, but I am speaking of the perspective of the real world.

And if the GPF didnt matter at all, V&M would have a lot more than 50% votes for GOAT in the V&M GOAT or not thread. When you consider recency bias, the super positive press they got coming out of Pyeongcheng, that most posters here arent even knowledgeable enough to understand T&D's intangible impact on dance, etc....

 

[savchenkoboss]

I am of the opinion that Virtue and Moir were better skaters at 23 than Papadakis and Cizeron are right now, but I don’t think their ability to tell specific kinds of ‘love stories’ should come into that evaluation at all. Artistry and connection comes in all forms.

To answer the thread title, I don’t think any skater/team will be considered a consensus GOAT without an OGM, but then again we can’t agree on a consensus GOAT in any discipline among those in contention that do have OGMs, so I don’t see us getting anywhere on that front anytime soon

I agree with you on all that. Well maybe not the part of V&M being better than P&C are now at 23. I dont think any version of V&M could have beaten P&C in Pyeongcheng except for the 2017-2018 one. The 2010 version certainly couldnt have.

 

[giselle23]

Why are V&M and P&C in discussion but not Davis and White? I think D&W won the GPF five times, so they definitely should rate!

 

[briancoogaert]

However I think V&M are at their all time peak while P&C still arent close to theirs. I predict in 2 or 3 years I will find P&C better (ability wise). Although I am not sure if their chemistry on ice will ever quite match Klimova & Ponomarenko, V&M or T&D as his being gay makes it impossible to present even the guise of love the way V&M or T&D do on the ice, the same way the Duchensays and Shibutanis are limited in that respect by being siblings.

Well...

 

[Deleted member 74551]

I agree with you on all that. Well maybe not the part of V&M being better than P&C are now at 23. I dont think any version of V&M could have beaten P&C in Pyeongcheng except for the 2017-2018 one. The 2010 version certainly couldnt have.

The judges probably wouldn’t have gone there, because they didn’t go there in 2011 and 2013, but I largely said that because IMO VM’s Hip Hip Chin Chin (from when Moir was 23) and Carmen (from when Virtue was 23) display a level of difficulty I have yet to see PC match in any of their programs. But I am very interested to see where they go in their second senior quad, and of course I recognise that the current trends in ice dance reward different things now than they did then, which makes it harder to imagine how various iterations of the teams might’ve matched up against each other.

Agree with giselle23 that DW deserve by results alone to be much more in the conversation than they currently are.

 

[Icetigger]

Why are V&M and P&C in discussion but not Davis and White? I think D&W won the GPF five times, so they definitely should rate!

A great mystery to me too. They won seven senior world level titles against V/M versus three the other way and bested them in the latter part of their career.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Davis & White should be in the conversation for best ever I agree but they arent for some reason. Like I said it is all about consensus opinions (what most people think), not about my own opinions, so I always exclude my own personal opinions, but I agree D&W should be much more in the conversation. Particularly should have been before V&M's comeback, their 2nd and 3rd Olympic Golds, etc...

I think the reason they arent though is they arent a romantic and/or mesmorizing pair they way Torvill & Dean, Virtue & Moir, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and in an indirect way sort of Papadakis & Cizeron are. And that is the style people prefer in an ice dancing GOAT.

 

[Icetigger]

The judges probably wouldn’t have gone there, because they didn’t go there in 2011 and 2013, but I largely said that because IMO VM’s Hip Hip Chin Chin (from when Moir was 23) and Carmen (from when Virtue was 23) display a level of difficulty I have yet to see PC match in any of their programs. But I am very interested to see where they go in their second senior quad, and of course I recognise that the current trends in ice dance reward different things now than they did then, which makes it harder to imagine how various iterations of the teams might’ve matched up against each other.

Carmen's step sequences are so much easier than those of P/C for Moonlight Sonata and less well performed. The twizzles and the spin are also less well-performed and have no where near the level of nuance. Plus the overall quality of the skating is much lower that P/C's. More athletic and dynamic, maybe (esp. in the lifts). There's definitely more athleticism in the stand alone transitions, but the actual transitions into elements by P/C are a lot more difficult (and don't actually exist for more of V/M's programme). in terms of who is better in the freedance at 22/23 between P/C and V/M, there really is no debate.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I have heard that a reason the judges did not love V&M's Carmen and their losing streak to Davis & White began as many judges considered the program vulgar, especialy things like the lifts where it looked like Scott was partly holding Tessa's crotch. I dont agree with this mode of thinking, but apparently some of the judges felt that way, and even expressed it in some of the judges conferences where the scores and results were discussed amongst them. Basically it was a bit too risque for somes taste. Personally it might have been my favorite V&M program ever though.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Carmen's step sequences are so much easier than those of P/C for Moonlight Sonata and less well performed. The twizzles and the spin are also less well-performed and have no where near the level of nuance. Plus the overall quality of the skating is much lower that P/C's. More athletic and dynamic, maybe (esp. in the lifts). There's definitely more athleticism in the stand alone transitions, but the actual transitions into elements by P/C are a lot more difficult. in terms of who is better in the freedance at 22/23 between P/C and V/M, there really is no debate.

I massively disagree on the complexity of Carmen’s step sequences and the nuances of the twizzles. They are perfectly musical, practically walked into, and exited on a running edge with choreography. Not sure more nuance could’ve been packed in! As well as the general quality of the skating tbh. The holds are vastly more intricate and Tessa knows how to straighten her free leg. I suspect this isn’t a subject either of us is willing to budge on, so agree to disagree?

 

[attyfan]

...

The GPF is the 3rd biggest event behind Olympics and Worlds. That is pretty much undisputed. Thus if that isnt a big event then nothing but Olympics and worlds are and most of the skaters skating and competing is irrelevant. And the 4th biggest is probably 4 Continents/Europeans, and Kwan didnt even skate in that. So really other than worlds, what case does she even have, and there are even skaters- Henie, Szabo, Heiss, who either won worlds more often or won 5 straight which is infinitely more impressive than 5 broken up over many years you would have to admit.
...

There appears to be a huge difference between a "GOAT" and a "consensus GOAT", which is (IMO) absurd, as it is theoretically possible to reach a "consensus" about recent skaters, but only the hardcore fans are likely to know those who competed much earlier. Limiting the discussion to Nats, Worlds and Olys allows some basis to compare the competitive records of current skaters and those, such as Henie, Button or Witt, all of whom competed at a time when the GPF didn't exist.

Also, I disagree that winning worlds 5 times straight is more impressive than 5 wins broken up, because I believe that the second is more consistent with winning against a broader group of competitors than the first. After all, Michelle won her 5th world title against a group that wasn't even competing at her first.

 

[giselle23]

Davis & White should be in the conversation for best ever I agree but they arent for some reason. Like I said it is all about consensus opinions (what most people think), not about my own opinions, so I always exclude my own personal opinions, but I agree D&W should be much more in the conversation. Particularly should have been before V&M's comeback, their 2nd and 3rd Olympic Golds, etc...

I think the reason they arent though is they arent a romantic and/or mesmorizing pair they way Torvill & Dean, Virtue & Moir, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and in an indirect way sort of Papadakis & Cizeron are. And that is the style people prefer in an ice dancing GOAT.

I think they are a mesmerizing pair. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHM_Nx_vgBQ And they won 5 GPF golds, so how can they be denied!

 

[Icetigger]

I massively disagree on the complexity of Carmen’s step sequences and the nuances of the twizzles. They are perfectly musical, practically walked into, and exited on a running edge with choreography. Not sure more nuance could’ve been packed in! As well as the general quality of the skating tbh. The holds are vastly more intricate and Tessa knows how to straighten her free leg. I suspect this isn’t a subject either of us is willing to budge on, so agree to disagree?

Yes, agree to disagree. But as you've made your case, i'll make mine ........ I would suggest you watch the two midline/diagonal step sequences performed at Worlds for both routines (both usefully to fast music). Take in to account the speed across the ice of P/C; the lack of side by side skating, and the complexity of both partners during points of separation, and the speed with which they end the sequence, plus the amount of nuance and moments accentuating the music. Then watch V/M's Carmen, note the amount of side by side skating, the lack of complexity in changes of hold, how not over the blades they are during sections of sequence, and the lack of speed and synchronisation in the final twizzles and exiting the element. Of course some of this may be due to rule changes (like an allowed retrogression, and I assume the rules on separation were different), but comparing Moulin Rouge's diagonal step is little better (although it was better skated) And if the rules allowed less for Carmen, the quality of how they skate the sequence suggests that more would have been skated even more so not as well. Overall, looking at Carmen, there is not one element skated anywhere near as well as any element in Moonlight Sonata.

 

[savchenkoboss]

There appears to be a huge difference between a "GOAT" and a "consensus GOAT", which is (IMO) absurd, as it is theoretically possible to reach a "consensus" about recent skaters, but only the hardcore fans are likely to know those who competed much earlier. Limiting the discussion to Nats, Worlds and Olys allows some basis to compare the competitive records of current skaters and those, such as Henie, Button or Witt, all of whom competed at a time when the GPF didn't exist.

Honestly people arent directly comparing the competitive records of say Henie vs the present day skaters anyway. Since if they were Henie and Grafstrom or Salchow would be the unquestioned GOATs, but Grafstrom and Salchow arent even in the conversation to most people and Henie is at best tied for the consensus GOAT with Yu Na Kim and maybe Katarina Witt. So that part is kind of moot as it seems people are rightly or wrongly, holding skaters like Henie due to a different standard to begin with. Just the fact anyone would question someone with 3 Olympic Golds and 10 straight World titles isnt the GOAT is proof of that. Or in Grafstrom's case someone with 3 Olympic Golds and an Olympic silver.

As for your other part of course 5 straight wins is far more impressive, it means you were totally dominant. Being totally dominant > not being that dominant.

 

[giselle23]

There is no "consensus" as to Yuna Kim and certainly not as to Katarina Witt!

 

[julieann]

Honestly people arent directly comparing the competitive records of say Henie vs the present day skaters anyway. Since if they were Henie and Grafstrom or Salchow would be the unquestioned GOATs, but Grafstrom and Salchow arent even in the conversation to most people and Henie is at best tied for the consensus GOAT with Yu Na Kim and maybe Katarina Witt. So that part is kind of moot as it seems people are rightly or wrongly, holding skaters like Henie due to a different standard to begin with. Just the fact anyone would question someone with 3 Olympic Golds and 10 straight World titles isnt the GOAT is proof of that. Or in Grafstrom's case someone with 3 Olympic Golds and an Olympic silver.

As for your other part of course 5 straight wins is far more impressive, it means you were totally dominant. Being totally dominant > not being that dominant.

I agree with your last sentence. I think if someone constantly dominates a sport and loses out on and OGM due to injury, mistakes, judging bias or just a bad day, a OSM shouldn't preclude them from being considered one of the greats. Anymore than having a short mediocre career and one flukey OGM catapults you to greatness.

 

[savchenkoboss]

There is no "consensus" as to Yuna Kim and certainly not as to Katarina Witt!

Personally I think Witt sucks and is the most overrated flukey champion ever but on large online polls with hundreds of thousands of voters and experts picks I have seen Yu Na Kim, Henie, and to a degree Witt (probably less than those other two though) have the most best ever support. That makes them the consensus.

I guess credential and dominance wise it makes total sense for so many people to be picking Witt as she lost only 1 time in 5 years, including 4 worlds out of 5 and 2 Olympic Golds, but skating wise for me she was ugh for the most part.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Yes, agree to disagree. But as you've made your case, i'll make mine ........ I would suggest you watch the two midline/diagonal step sequences performed at Worlds for both routines (both usefully to fast music). Take in to account the speed across the ice of P/C; the lack of side by side skating, and the complexity of both partners during points of separation, and the speed with which they end the sequence, plus the amount of nuance and moments accentuating the music. Then watch V/M's Carmen, note the amount of side by side skating, the lack of complexity in changes of hold, how not over the blades they are during sections of sequence, and the lack of speed and synchronisation in the final twizzles and exiting the element. Of course some of this may be due to rule changes (like an allowed retrogression, and I assume the rules on separation were different), but comparing Moulin Rouge's diagonal step is little better (although it was better skated) And if the rules allowed less for Carmen, the quality of how they skate the sequence suggests that more would have been skated even more so not as well. Overall, looking at Carmen, there is not one element skated anywhere near as well as any element in Moonlight Sonata.

I have identified a few fleeting moments where Gabi is erroneously on two feet during the circular step sequence at Worlds despite the gargantuan score they received for that element, if we’re going to talk about not being over the blades and claim that not a single element was skated better, and I also slowed down their twizzles to check that element too- they do a very good job at matching up their exits perfectly but she’s almost pre-rotating into the second set, her upper body is twisted right round before she catches the blade (within the rules, I should think, but noticeable next to Guillaume who’s alignment is good). I’d also disagree with the implication that the Carmen diagonal step sequence lacks moments accentuating the music- the timing is spot on and actually in the Olympics FD I thought PC were chasing the music during their midline and Gui was having to pull Gabi through a little, though I’ll concede that they’d caught it back up by the end.

I will say that I don’t think VM ever put together a full performance of Carmen that went perfectly in all regards, which is not something that can be said for Moonlight Sonata and they deserve a lot of credit for that. I don’t agree that element for element MS was superior on each, and I really don’t agree that all the transitions into those elements were more difficult either.

But I think this is getting a tad off-topic, so I’ll shake on it As I said to giselle23 earlier, I do agree with you that we should be talking about DW more.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Davis & White's 5 Grand Prix final titles is an underrated feat. That is a record that will probably last awhile, half a century perhaps. And as I already said contrary to what some believe (I respect those who feel otherwise, but I dont budge on my own view on this as too much of my interest in every skating season since the event was introduced is centred around the build up to the GPF) I personally strongly feel GPF is a major event, a strong 3rd biggest event after Olympics and Worlds. They also did well in head to head against a team who might today be the consensus GOAT- Virtue & Moir. In fact they went unbeaten against absolutely prime Virtue & Moir for a whole 2 years, and beat them atleast once every season for their final 6 seasons together. So if V&M are the best ever as most seem to think, how can a team who was kicking their butts so regularly not rank very highly near the very top too. They probably deserve to be top 5 all time, if not even top 3.

And I think at this point they belong higher than Papadakis & Cizeron. Papadakis & Cizeron will probably surpass them in the next quad, but for now D&W should definitely be higher. They handsomely beat V&M to win Olympic Gold, which P&C could not do at all, and P&C benefitted from the retirements/breaks of both V&M and D&W, and didnt even really start conclusively dominating even the non Virtue & Moir field until this past season. Even as late as 2016-2017 they were having close contests with the Shibutanis, or losing the short dance to 2 other teams at Europeans. Davis & White never had problems with any teams besides Virtue & Moir from 2010 onwards.

Papadakis & Cizeron probably have more artistic impact, but Davis & White are still excellent artistically, even if they arent as creative maybe as Virtue & Moir or Torvill & Dean or some of the Soviets, etc.., and D&W at this point were much more perfect technically than P&C are.

Charlie is also the sweetest sweetheart. Just look at his instagram and all the adoreable photos with his dogs and friends, and his interviews and commentary is always so sweet and complimentary to both his former competitors like Virtue & Moir or Capellini & Lanotte, and also the ones who are relatively new. He has to get a little bonus for that doesnt he. Plus that hair!

 

[Yazmeen]

In answer to the original question: Yes.

 

[Icetigger]

but she’s almost pre-rotating into the second set, her upper body is twisted right round before she catches the blade (within the rules, I should think, but noticeable next to Guillaume who’s alignment is good).

I agree on this. She has less snap and catches her blade a quarter turn after Guillaume, which allows them to get the feature, but puts the feature at risk when the twizzles don't go right (and lost them a level twice this season). That's something they (she) needs to work on. Not because I think there is anything inherently wrong in her doing this ( in terms of single skater's aesthetic or in terms of getting the level), but because I think everything should be the same through the twizzles (even this tiniest detail), and strategically it's something to work on. But I also think it's part of the aesthetic- where she's supposed to be softer and he's supposed to be more manly- as envisaged by MFD (as stated by her in interview)- and accordingly her finishing of movements is always the tiniest fraction of a second behind Guillaume.

Overall though, it's a judged sport, and as much as we all have our different opinions, their opinions are (as mathematically expressed) on the whole that P/C are the best ice dancers of the IJS era, and that they did perform every single element at Worlds in the MS vs Carmen battle better (and are the better couple at 22/23); and in terms of competition and for skaters looking to challenge P/C, that's a fact that would be ignored at their own peril .