9 dead in Toronto after van attack :(

[ballettmaus]

As much as I roll my eyes when some people seem to believe that bullying, autism or something along those lines explains all there is to explain, or make them less responsible for what they did, I also think that it would be a mistake to discard these completely if we're looking for explanations. I see it like a plane crash: there is never one single cause.

And yet, there always is when the attacker is an Islamist terrorist.
I agree, there never is just one cause but the same is true for Islamist terrorists. They need to be radicalized as well.

 

[Japanfan]

I wish the identity of the perpetrators of acts like these would no longer be made public and that it was possible that the media didn't give it too much room (even though I know they are doing their job and there is no way to pretend this isn't a big deal).

It's important to identify the perpetrators as it offers some closure to the victims and the general public. And I think there may a requirement that their names be released, barring exceptions in which anonymity is seen as preferable (don't know the legal process that involved, but there must be one).

Also, in knowing what kind of people commit horrendous and senseless acts of violence, it may be possible stop such acts from occurring.

In several cases of senseless shootings, there has been evidence that an individual was unstable and planning an act of mass violence. In one case, I don't remember which, there was a cache of stored guns.

My reason is that these people do not deserve the attention they are craving. I really believe it would lessen the imitation effect. I don't want to focus on them. I don't even want to feel hate for them. I just want them to no longer exist in anyone's mind.

Well this one will be behind bars, and I don't think people will be focusing on him.


As I was watching the news tonight, witnesses reported that he seemed to spare men and target women. So far the police has reported that most victims were women, but they are cautious and won't give any detail yet about the motives.


In the past few days, as it's time to discuss the sentence to come for the author of last year's attack at a mosque in Quebec City, it was said that the criminal had been bullied growing up. Again, bullying doesn't does not make someone do something like that. However, I can see how serious social difficulties could possibly be one of many factors that lead someone to a path like this. Both could play a part into social exclusion, which in turn could lead someone to frequent online communities that also broadcast extreme ideas and ideals. As much as I roll my eyes when some people seem to believe that bullying, autism or something along those lines explains all there is to explain, or make them less responsible for what they did, I also think that it would be a mistake to discard these completely if we're looking for explanations. I see it like a plane crash: there is never one single cause.[/QUOTE]

 

[Twilight1]

Anger outwards... sociopath
Anger turned inwards... substance use disorder

Sometimes both together

I see 'that' a lot.

 

[Choupette]

It's important to identify the perpetrators as it offers some closure to the victims and the general public. And I think there may a requirements that their names be released, barring exceptions in which anonymity is seen as preferable (don't know the legal process that involved, but there must be one).

Also, in knowing what kind of people commit horrendous and senseless acts of violence, it may be possible stop such acts from occurring.

In several cases of senseless shootings, there has been evidence that an individual was unstable and planning an act of mass violence. In one case, I don't remember which, there was a cache of stored guns.

Well this one will be behind bars, and I don't think people will be focusing on him.

He wrote a Facebook post that went online at the moment or right before he went to do what he did, in which he made a reference to a Californian killer who killed 6 and injured 12. This is not uncommon. School shooters made references to Columbine, IS killers made references to previous ones, and last year's killer in Quebec had several killers among his recent search history. This is precisely what bugs me. This idea is nothing new. In other countries, even family members of killed victims have asked precisely that, and it is backed up by facts, not only theory.

If we want to get into psychology, such acts are very reminiscent of narcissistic personality disorder patterns (I don't think all of the killers, individually, have NPD, it's a lot more complex than that, but the groups that they join, as a whole, very often exhibit such characteristics, because their leaders do). As a result, being recognized and admired for what they did become very important. See this link: Narcissism and terrorism: how the personality disorder leads to deadly violence.

Yes, once someone is charged in Canada, legally, their name has to be made public, except if, for example, identifying them would also identify the victim, such as in incest cases. Then the reporters have to make a choice: hide that the crime is incest (a choice that was made in a case involving a famous Montreal boxer a long time ago) or hide the accused name (which is usually the case).

I think it should be possible, however, to publish facts about the killers and not restrain information while not mentioning their name. I'm not saying nothing should be published about the events and what might have lead them to do that. It's only just about the names. Besides, not publishing their names in the media wouldn't mean that it would be a secret and that it would be kept from the victims or even the general public who would want to find out.

I realize how our justice system works, and why it is public, and I'm not necessarily extremely enthusiastic over this possibility, nor blind to its downsides. Unfortunately, I do not see any better way to put an end to how they "inspire" others, and I really believe it would save many lives.

 

[overedge]

I'm not sure that he wanted attention as much as he (allegedly) wanted to hurt as many women as possible.

Also, the previous killer he referenced in his Facebook post was another self-proclaimed "incel" who stated that he did what he did because he was mad at women for rejecting him.

 

[Tinami Amori]

more issues coming up..
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ssian-the-man-accused-in-the-van-rampage.html

“He (had) notable special needs,” Reynolds said of Minassian, citing his behaviour of making meowing noises and hugging his arms around himself in the hallways at school.

He said he was surprised to hear Minassian was the suspected driver as he didn’t believe Minassian would be able to drive given his special needs condition. Reynolds said special needs students were well supported at Thornlea, and doesn’t believe Minassian was a bullying victim.

Shannon Goel, 25, said Minassian was in her Grade 5 class at Sixteenth Avenue Public School in Richmond Hill. When she heard his name reported on the news she got out her old yearbook.

“I just remember him acting out,” she said. “He would throw fits, he would always act out, and it was hard for people to control him.”

His mother is speaking out, seems she is hinting at a lack of funds in the community centre which dealt with her son... so maybe she does believe the cause was Asperger's Syndrome and fail of the local centre....

In a 2009 interview with the Richmond Hill Liberal, a Sona Minassian said her son lives with a condition called Asperger’s syndrome, a form of autism and relied

on Helpmate, a social service community program whose lack of funding threatened to shutter it.

 

[oleada]

@Tinami Amori I get your point that there’s always crazy people, and it’s true, but I can’t help but think that there’s something that can be done about this. Misogyny is the entrance point for a lot of men who end up being radicalized. Most mass shooters have a history of domestic violence. It’s a trend, but very few seem to care.

 

[Twilight1]

There are many free services for people with Autism and those who fall in the spectrum.

In fact, kids with special needs who don't fall in the spectrum get next to nothing in services compared to their counterparts in the spectrum. I speak as someone in the field and as a consumer for my son.

I undestand the mom is grieving but she is in the denial stage.

Her son had psychological issues and he murdered people. I hope they all get support/help through this.

 

[Tinami Amori]

@Tinami Amori I get your point that there’s always crazy people, and it’s true, but I can’t help but think that there’s something that can be done about this. Misogyny is the entrance point for a lot of men who end up being radicalized. Most mass shooters have a history of domestic violence. It’s a trend, but very few seem to care.

at this point i am just looking at information. the man was taken alive and can be questioned and examined.

ETA: In this interview there is a video, where his high-school class mate tells "Alek acted like a cat, meowing, purring, hissing, licking hands, rubbing his head against people".
https://globalnews.ca/video/4167307...out-toronto-van-attack-suspect-alek-minassian

 

[Japanfan]

@Tinami Amori I get your point that there’s always crazy people, and it’s true, but I can’t help but think that there’s something that can be done about this. Misogyny is the entrance point for a lot of men who end up being radicalized. Most mass shooters have a history of domestic violence. It’s a trend, but very few seem to care.

Few seem care about misogyny in general. I think a lot of people (women included) believe that it doesn't really exist or is not much of a problem, especially given advancements in women's rights.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Interesting that it is now being discussed there is a whole movement called Incel which are men who complain about women who won't have sex with them.

http://junkee.com/incel-alex-minassian-elliot-rodger/155913

 

[Wyliefan]

I can't believe people are just now finding out this is a thing. Any single woman, especially any single woman on a dating site, has known it for a long time.

 

[Twilight1]

Misogyny is very much alive and well. We just don't talk about it like we should. It is scary how little we talk about it but are very quick to equate feminism to misandry...

 

[Scrufflet]

I can't believe people are just now finding out this is a thing. Any single woman, especially any single woman on a dating site, has known it for a long time.

I'm not single, have been happily married for years and my community is one of successful partnerships. I had not hears of "incel" until the van attack. Hatred of women is nothing new to me; I like other women have coped with it all our lives.
A lot about this incident astounds me. I live close to the site, I worked at that college for 20 years, although not when he was there.
But what really stands out for me was seeing a photo of him and the California guy, Rodgers. Neither one was really ugly; they should have been able to find someone in this culture addicted to physical beauty. So they were likely very unpleasant human beings, incapable of displaying humour, charm or curiosity in another human being, 3 things that women I know find very attractive. I wish they'd gone for counselling, hit the gym, had work done or visited a hooker before they decided that people had to die.
I feel really bad for anyone who has to do online dating. It must be so hard for people to connect.

 

[snoopy]

Neither one was really ugly; they should have been able to find someone in this culture addicted to physical beauty. So they were likely very unpleasant human beings, incapable of displaying humour, charm or curiosity in another human being, 3 things that women I know find very attractive. I wish they'd gone for counselling, hit the gym, had work done or visited a hooker before they decided that people had to die.

When I've seen okay/average looking guys all morose about not having a woman, the issue is they want Jennifer Lawrence. It's not that no woman will have sex with them but that a real hottie won't have sex with them.

 

[skategal]

When I've seen okay/average looking guys all morose about not having a woman, the issue is they want Jennifer Lawrence. It's not that no woman will have sex with them but that a real hottie won't have sex with them.

Yes, this is the crux of incel too. They think they are God's gift to women and deserve super-model beauties. Average women need not apply and they think "unattractive women" (by their standards) should be killed.

A real bunch of sick fcuks, they are....

 

[Tinami Amori]

... i am predicting a "progressive debate" on "having a guaranteed sex partner is one's civil right", and conversations such as "if the girls were a bit nicer and showed sympathy to the poor odd disabled boy, he would not become a killer", followed by "mandatory quotas" of each person providing "charity sex" to the outcasts... it's not "misogyny", it's social justice and redistribution of assets provided to some by nature...

 

[Aussie Willy]

I can't believe people are just now finding out this is a thing. Any single woman, especially any single woman on a dating site, has known it for a long time.

I am single woman and have never heard of it until now and didn't know it was a "movement". It has not received much publicity in Australia.

If you are on dating sites, many men don't really know how to behave. I don't think they get that sending dick pics is just a turn off.

 

[Scrufflet]

When I've seen okay/average looking guys all morose about not having a woman, the issue is they want Jennifer Lawrence. It's not that no woman will have sex with them but that a real hottie won't have sex with them.

Good point! I read an article recently that Hugh Hefner and the Playboy lifestyle were responsible for making all men believe that every single male had the right to expect sex from a gorgeous blonde with huge boobs. A stretch but an interesting one at that. I grew up in that era when every boy had a stack of those mags under his bed. I looked at my brother's stash and realized that not only did I not look like that but nobody I knew looked like that. Sounds like things haven't changed much.

 

[Japanfan]

Good point! I read an article recently that Hugh Hefner and the Playboy lifestyle were responsible for making all men believe that every single male had the right to expect sex from a gorgeous blonde with huge boobs. A stretch but an interesting one at that. I grew up in that era when every boy had a stack of those mags under his bed. I looked at my brother's stash and realized that not only did I not look like that but nobody I knew looked like that. Sounds like things haven't changed much.

When I've seen okay/average looking guys all morose about not having a woman, the issue is they want Jennifer Lawrence. It's not that no woman will have sex with them but that a real hottie won't have sex with them.

This is what's known as male entitlement. An entire sex trade exists to satisfy this sense of entitlement.

And, there are plenty of women who would like to have sex but can't find a suitable partner for whatever reason - or are physically constrained from having sex (i.e. in some countries women are not allowed to go out in public unless unaccompanied by a male).

 

[Aussie Willy]

And, there are plenty of women who would like to have sex but can't find a suitable partner for whatever reason - or are physically constrained from having sex (i.e. in some countries women are not allowed to go out in public unless unaccompanied by a male).

There been have a lot of women tweeting comments about not having sex and how they respond. Usually it is putting on the pyjamas, eating a block of chocolate and binge watching the latest series of [insert name].

I am sure the #MeToo movement doesn't help. Heaven forbid that women make men accountable for their actions.

 

[Japanfan]

Heaven forbid that women make men accountable for their actions.

And risk puncturing the fragile balloon that is the male ego, which we as woman are commonly tasked with propping up.

 

[binbinwinwin]

Toronto Star has confirmed that the service number in the Facebook post was his service number in the military which is private information that very few people have access to, with Facebook's confirmation, let's see how many people still call that post a hoax.

Yes, this is the crux of incel too. They think they are God's gift to women and deserve super-model beauties. Average women need not apply and they think "unattractive women" (by their standards) should be killed.

A real bunch of sick fcuks, they are....

I wouldn't say they think they're god's gift to women, I've had a lot of experiences with this men on Reddit and they have harassed women and sent very graphic messages that are too inappropriate for me to quote. People have compared it to video games, like you complete each requirement and you "unlock" what's next and women are the NPCs. I did this and then I did this, therefore I should deserve sex and intimacy from a woman! And not just with any woman, she's gotta be hot, but not in a slutty way, with hair that is always perfect, her face must be all natural and wear minimal make up, can eat 5 hamburgers and drink 10 beers in one sitting but no "fat chicks" etc etc. They just have all this entitlement and their extreme bitterness has become this terrifying misogynistic movement that led to this. Disgusting.

 

[Deleted member 19433]

Yes, this is the crux of incel too. They think they are God's gift to women and deserve super-model beauties. Average women need not apply and they think "unattractive women" (by their standards) should be killed.

A real bunch of sick fcuks, they are....

This particular person was definitely a sick fcuk, and I'm so sorry for all the victims that this situation ever happened.

However, while there are some high profile people who have identified with and brought publicity to the term and committed evil acts, not all people to whom the term would apply are like that:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ented-incel-movement-interview-toronto-attack

I haven't used the label for myself or sought out community with people who have used that label, but by the original and literal definition it would apply to me, and I find this act and the attitude that led to it completely horrifying. I also have been diagnosed with Asperger's, though I've been reluctant to accept and embrace that label also. There is an extra layer of hurt in this situation and some of the reactions to it, because connecting with people and finding love or seeing myself as even a possibly lovable person is something I've struggled deeply with my whole life.

But what really stands out for me was seeing a photo of him and the California guy, Rodgers. Neither one was really ugly; they should have been able to find someone in this culture addicted to physical beauty. So they were likely very unpleasant human beings, incapable of displaying humour, charm or curiosity in another human being, 3 things that women I know find very attractive. I wish they'd gone for counselling, hit the gym, had work done or visited a hooker before they decided that people had to die.
I feel really bad for anyone who has to do online dating. It must be so hard for people to connect.

It is very hard for some people to connect, myself included. I'm not really ugly or unpleasant most of the time (at least I don't think I am, and I'm harder on myself than most people are on me). Lots of people like and appreciate me and things I do and tell me it all the time, but love and affection haven't come easily (or ever). No one's ever expressed that towards me in my whole teen/adult life.

I'm not hateful of women, in fact I'm so concerned and anxious about the risk of even slightly offending or creeping out women I'm potentially interested in, or making them feel bad about having to reject if they don't feel the same way (because so far they never have) that it's very, very hard for me to get up the confidence to express any interest in them. Whenever I have, I've been rejected (always in as kind and respectful a way as possible, but it still hurts a lot and the practice hasn't made it any easier). I do struggle with anxiety and confidence and eye contact and need to try harder, but it takes a lot of physical and mental and emotional energy to put oneself through that repeatedly and sometimes doesn't feel worth it.

Sorry for derailing the thread. I realize that people who were making negative comments probably weren't intending them to be directed at me, but it still does hurt and is a sensitive subject for me. Obviously, my hurt isn't in the same league as those of the victims (and friends and families of the victims) of tragedy and I don't mean to take attention off of them.

 

[Japanfan]

I haven't used the label for myself or sought out community with people who have used that label, but by the original and literal definition it would apply to me, and I find this act and the attitude that led to it completely horrifying. I also have been diagnosed with Asperger's, though I've been reluctant to accept and embrace that label also. There is an extra layer of hurt in this situation and some of the reactions to it, because connecting with people and finding love or seeing myself as even a possibly lovable person is something I've struggled deeply with my whole life.

It is very hard for some people to connect, myself included. I'm not really ugly or unpleasant most of the time (at least I don't think I am, and I'm harder on myself than most people are on me). Lots of people like and appreciate me and things I do and tell me it all the time, but love and affection haven't come easily (or ever). No one's ever expressed that towards me in my whole teen/adult life.

Hugs, RFOS.

The world is full of people who find it hard to connect, are insecure, and may be sort of different, for lack of a better word. Love and affection are elusive to many, but those people often do pair up with others somewhat like themselves.

In terms of finding a partner, you are looking at just one person in a world of millions. Just one.

Never give up your capacity to surprise yourself, and never say never.

I'm not hateful of women, in fact I'm so concerned and anxious about the risk of even slightly offending or creeping out women I'm potentially interested in, or making them feel bad about having to reject if they don't feel the same way (because so far they never have) that it's very, very hard for me to get up the confidence to express any interest in them. Whenever I have, I've been rejected (always in as kind and respectful a way as possible, but it still hurts a lot and the practice hasn't made it any easier). I do struggle with anxiety and confidence and eye contact and need to try harder, but it takes a lot of physical and mental and emotional energy to put oneself through that repeatedly and sometimes doesn't feel worth it.

I'm sorry you've had to endure rejection, but again don't give up.

Some women may find your sensitivity attractive. Goodness knows we're all really accustomed to being treated like sexual objects. Being treated with respect is a good place to start in terms of dating or building a relationship.

 

[overedge]

Good point! I read an article recently that Hugh Hefner and the Playboy lifestyle were responsible for making all men believe that every single male had the right to expect sex from a gorgeous blonde with huge boobs. A stretch but an interesting one at that. I grew up in that era when every boy had a stack of those mags under his bed. I looked at my brother's stash and realized that not only did I not look like that but nobody I knew looked like that. Sounds like things haven't changed much.

Online porn has made things even worse since the Playboy days. It's not just looks now - it's also behavior. There has been some interesting/scary research about how teenagers' expectations of sexual activity have been shaped by what they've seen online - namely, that men expect women to behave and respond during sex like the women do in porn videos. And if they don't then something is wrong with them. Because as we know porn is such an accurate depiction of sexual activity in real life

 

[Scrufflet]

Online porn has made things even worse since the Playboy days. It's not just looks now - it's also behavior. There has been some interesting/scary research about how teenagers' expectations of sexual activity have been shaped by what they've seen online - namely, that men expect women to behave and respond during sex like the women do in porn videos. And if they don't then something is wrong with them. Because as we know porn is such an accurate depiction of sexual activity in real life

Frightening.

 

[Scrufflet]

This particular person was definitely a sick fcuk, and I'm so sorry for all the victims that this situation ever happened.

However, while there are some high profile people who have identified with and brought publicity to the term and committed evil acts, not all people to whom the term would apply are like that:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ented-incel-movement-interview-toronto-attack

I haven't used the label for myself or sought out community with people who have used that label, but by the original and literal definition it would apply to me, and I find this act and the attitude that led to it completely horrifying. I also have been diagnosed with Asperger's, though I've been reluctant to accept and embrace that label also. There is an extra layer of hurt in this situation and some of the reactions to it, because connecting with people and finding love or seeing myself as even a possibly lovable person is something I've struggled deeply with my whole life.




It is very hard for some people to connect, myself included. I'm not really ugly or unpleasant most of the time (at least I don't think I am, and I'm harder on myself than most people are on me). Lots of people like and appreciate me and things I do and tell me it all the time, but love and affection haven't come easily (or ever). No one's ever expressed that towards me in my whole teen/adult life.

I'm not hateful of women, in fact I'm so concerned and anxious about the risk of even slightly offending or creeping out women I'm potentially interested in, or making them feel bad about having to reject if they don't feel the same way (because so far they never have) that it's very, very hard for me to get up the confidence to express any interest in them. Whenever I have, I've been rejected (always in as kind and respectful a way as possible, but it still hurts a lot and the practice hasn't made it any easier). I do struggle with anxiety and confidence and eye contact and need to try harder, but it takes a lot of physical and mental and emotional energy to put oneself through that repeatedly and sometimes doesn't feel worth it.

Sorry for derailing the thread. I realize that people who were making negative comments probably weren't intending them to be directed at me, but it still does hurt and is a sensitive subject for me. Obviously, my hurt isn't in the same league as those of the victims (and friends and families of the victims) of tragedy and I don't mean to take attention off of them.

Much respect for what you have said here! Please don't give up on your search for happiness. I went for the man with humour, sensitivity and dignity and we're happy 33 years later. I find that many women go for the entire package as opposed to just looks.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I read few pages on "that incel" site..... people there range from quiet shy types, to comedians, to potential violent criminals... Those who "hate" do not just "hate women"... They also strongly hate other men "who are not like them/better than them".

If anything, when reading i had recollections from "Animal House" - nerds vs. jocks.. A whimp and a blimp..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuFCaIAnETk

 

[misskarne]

I think it's disgusting that the word "terrorist" has been put away now that they're sure he's an incel. He's still a fcuking terrorist. Why is this so hard?