American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

[jlai]

The thing is if there is a fundamental system issue then it should affect all four disciplines equally. But it is affecting ladies more. Ice dance is fine. Perhaps it helps to not look at what other countries are doing, but what ice dancing training is doing right.
For instance, ice dance teams stick together since young and work out kinks and then there are training centers who teach kids the right things at a young age that caters to the IJS system in Michigan, Kentucky, etc.

 

[MacMadame]

In the US I believe most of the rinks are privately owned and the coaches contract with the rink who grants the coaching privileges.

Most rinks are affiliated with a USFS club as well. It may be a very loose affiliation but they all tend to have one. My former club had a main rink where they even had an office and some satellite rinks where they bought ice time.

I agree, but what are the odds?

There are 3 different clubs in my area where it works like that. I don't know if this is the difference but we have a lot of adult skaters who are active in the clubs - volunteer their time, are on the Board, go to Governing Council, etc. I think Adult Skaters have a unique perspective because they understand what it's like to be a skater but they are also grown-ups.

 

[brennele]

Skating is basically a rich man's sport. One certainly does not have to be rich to practice skating at the entry level e.g. group lessons for children (who will very much enjoy the activity) but beyond recreational enjoyment, it is going to take big bucks. Bigger bucks than most families will ever have. For that reason, I question the wisdom of getting involved in the first place. It is arguably one of the most expensive activities, in fact, that a child can be introduced to. There are so many interesting activities in which parents can enroll their children for purposes of life enrichment. I can't see the wisdom of exposing them to something which - in all likelihood - you are not going to be able to afford should they actually excel at it. It just does not make sense to me. Why start something you are not going to be able to carry through.

As for skating on ponds, I did that as a child and it was immensely fun - no skating lessons needed for that sort of skating. At that level, it is rather like roller blading - also a lot of fun. No one needs to take lessons to roller blade. No need to take lessons to learn to ride a bicycle - a bit of practice and a little optional help and one will get the balance aspect down pat...then off you go. If I could ice skate on ponds as a child, literally anybody can. I am about as unathletic as they come and it was a piece of cake - no harder than learning to ride a bicycle. There was a time when ice skating might have been done purely for fun like rollerblading or bicycle riding is but I think that time is long gone. I truly don't think most people need actual lessons to learn how to balance on skates and then just do it on frozen ponds for pure enjoyment. I don't think it is possible to be less athletic than I am yet I picked it up in no time. Honestly, I don't even remember falling while learning. It was literally that easy to pick up balancing on ice skates on your own at your local pond.

 

[mag]

I wouldn't assume the coaches don't know.

I am not assuming. I have seen it in action way too many times. I would love for someone to do a masters thesis on “talent identification.” Basically have a study where 1000 kids are followed starting in LTS. Let the coaches do their thing and select the talented ones. Let the study randomly select the same number of kids. Look at the kids 12 years later. My experience tells me that about the same number of randomly selected Skaters as talented Skaters would still be Skating, and their results would be very similar. Maybe also select a group but base it on work ethic rather than “talent.” Give that group all the same special stuff as the talented group, but praise their work ethic rather than their talent. I suspect that work ethic group would see the best results.

I know nothing about Eteri, but I suspect that she values hard work over everything else. Her Skaters work their butts off and that is why they are successful. Eteri fired Zagitova because she wasn’t willing to work hard enough. That tell me that she isn’t wasting her time with Skaters who think that they are something special. Work hard, or get out.

 

[Sylvia]

At the very least why can't USFS use some of their funding to help some highly talented skaters get training?

How early and how would they be identified? Sometimes the youngsters who may appear to be the most "highly talented skaters" don't have the necessary discipline or work ethic or [fill in the blank here] to be successful competitors at the higher/highest levels.

ETA:

I know nothing about Eteri, but I suspect that she values hard work over everything else. Her Skaters work their butts off and that is why they are successful. Eteri fired Zagitova because she wasn’t willing to work hard enough. That tell me that she isn’t wasting her time with Skaters who think that they are something special. Work hard, or get out.

Which skater did you mean to write, @mag?

 

[Meoima]

USFA needs some stars. Many of the current young girls were inspired by Yulia Lip and Adelina. There should be some American girls inspired by top skaters the same.

 

[vesperholly]

In the US I believe most of the rinks are privately owned and the coaches contract with the rink who grants the coaching privileges.

In my area (Northeast), rinks are almost entirely owned by municipalities. They almost all operate at a loss and get subsidies from the local/county/state government.

For the most part here, clubs buy figure skating ice and coaches are contracted by the club. There is one rink where the rink itself “owns” the figure skating ice but that is a new and unusual arrangement. Club ice can restrict by ability (high freestyle so your tot in a helmet doesn’t interrupt a 2axel), age (adult only ) and discipline (moves/dance or freestyle), where rink ice usually is just a free for all.

 

[mag]

In my area (Northeast), rinks are almost entirely owned by municipalities. They almost all operate at a loss and get subsidies from the local/county/state government.

For the most part here, clubs buy figure skating ice and coaches are contracted by the club. There is one rink where the rink itself “owns” the figure skating ice but that is a new and unusual arrangement. Club ice can restrict by ability (high freestyle so your tot in a helmet doesn’t interrupt a 2axel), age (adult only ) and discipline (moves/dance or freestyle), where rink ice usually is just a free for all.

That sounds very much like how it is in my area of Canada.

 

[mag]

Which skater did you mean to write, @mag?

I read somewhere that Eteri fired Zagitova at one point because she wasn’t willing to work hard enough. Zagitova convinced her to take her back and the rest is, as they say, history.

 

[overedge]

@clairecloutier I would add to your list that IME many administrators and officials at the regional/sectional/national level - i.e. people involved with the skating federation - have risen to that level because they are good at doing whatever they do *in the context of skating*. Not in the context of how those functions would operate in non-skating organizations.

So when a parent or board member with expertise in a functional area looks at what a club or federation is doing and says WTF, often they are shot down because they "don't understand how skating works". Or because the people involved with the WTF area don't want their lack of knowledge to be revealed - the "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" reaction.

And sometimes parents with that expertise don't say WTF because they don't want to threaten the progress of their child's skating career.

So the net effect is that skating continues to lurch along with operations that are often inefficient, outdated, or in some cases borderline unethical (as the Callaghan situation is now demonstrating) and it's very difficult to make substantive change. Sometimes skating is its own worst enemy.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Just want to say, without highlighting specific posts, that lets not idealize the "Russian state-sponsored figure skating programme".
- There are only few training centres, like Sambo-70, where Eteri's group trains, in the whole Russia.
- In order to be selected for such training, students have to be at a fairly high level and to get there parents had to pay an arm and a leg...
- Most (~ 99+%) of skating rinks in Russia are commercial, and owners allocate time to elite figure skating only part time. The rest of the time goes to hockey, private parties, public sessions and group lessons. Even the elite coaches and skaters often experience ice time shortages, as you may have read in the complaints of some Russian elite coaches and skaters who end up switching rinks, clubs and even cities.
- Once a skater/athlete makes it to, for example Sambo-70 (it hosts more than just a figure skating programme), it is still not totally free for the student (too long to list all specifics). The advantage of centres like Sambo is that it is a fully equipped training complex, with not only ice rink, but gyms, dance rooms, running tracks, swimming pools, medical centre, therapy/massage, canteen/cafeteria, educational centre, and few other administrative set ups for athletic purposes. http://xn---70-5cdf9dpu.xn--p1ai/
- Sambo-70 holds admission sessions and try outs few times a year. The initial groups of kids that are selected as "hopefuls" do pay for training. It is only when they make it to Elite Coaches, like Eteri's group, the payment issues are handled differently.
- But it also allows "paid admissions" for those who just want to take public sessions, classes, use swimming pools or gymnasiums.

So basically, do Med, Zag, Trus, Kost, pay hourly fees to Eteri and crew and for ice time? no... there are different payment arrangements made between "all these" and the money do not just come from the State, by the way.

But all other students in, for example, Eteri's "pre-novice" groups which are handled by secondary teachers, do pay, full fees, and their parents do sit on the bleachers, and have opinions, and arguments with coaches, and give their kids advise, and try to give coaches advice....

Russian rinks are full of starry eyed kids and parents paying for years and years for private and group lessons, in hope that someday they will "make it to" the rinks of few elite coaches.... Eteri, Mishin, etc... and very few of these kids make it that far, but there are millions trying AT THEIR OWN expense....
http://worldfb.ru/article/331339/sh...-informatsiya-dlya-posetiteley-adres-otzyivyi
http://www.sport-katok.ru/sections/school/dla-detej/
http://skfkprestige.ru/news/nabor-na-novyy-uchebnyy-god/
http://workingmama.ru/places/shkola_figurnogo_katanija_nevskij_led/

There is not enough Oil and Gas in Russia to pay for all the figure skaters who are aiming for 6-7 training centres in Russia such as, Sambo, Sochi-centre, St. Pete Ice Palace, etc... So really, "state-sponsored" my foot...

 

[gkelly]

It takes a lot of money for a US skater to become a top competitor, but for the most part no one is getting rich off those expenditures.

One big chunk of expenses is ice time. That goes to the rinks, either directly or indirectly if clubs buy ice time from the rink and then skaters buy ice time through the club.

Compared to public sessions or hockey, figure skating ice time tends to lose money or have much lower profit ratios for the rinks because so many fewer figure skaters can use the ice at the same time.

The next big chunk of expense is skating lessons. Some high-level coaches who can charge high hourly rates or coaches who have a convenient setup where they can coach many hours in a row at the same rink at moderate rates can make a good living, but many other coaches scramble to be able to teach enough hours a week to earn enough to live on. A lot depends on how much ice time is available and what the market is like in terms of available students.

Some may encourage students to take more lessons than they really need for their likely level of success, because the only way the coaches can make a living is if they teach a minimum number of lessons per week. Also, they may want some success even at non-elite-track levels. If they tell parents that skaters competing in standard track will usually place near the bottom of their events if they only take one lesson per week and they would need more lessons to place higher and/or pass tests more quickly, that's just being realistic. Undoubtedly some coaches are better at explaining all available options and considerations to parents and others are just not good communicators. And some top coaches may make realistic optimistic forecasts about what a talented skater can achieve with them if they commit seriously to more training. How many are making unrealistic promises and pressuring parents/skaters to invest significant time and money for what they know will be a limited return?

For skaters who compete often (or who have to commute/travel regularly just to work with the right coaches or practice together with a partner), the next biggest expense chunk is probably travel and hotel expenses, which don't go to anyone in the skating community but rather to the travel and hospitality industries.

Club/federation membership, test fees, competition entry fees, skates, costumes, music cutting, off-ice training, etc., etc., also all add up, but again, most fees to USFS and local clubs primarily cover ice time, costs of bringing in officials, and other costs of running events. Some club events are meant to earn money for the club to spend on non-income-producing club events, skater support, etc. The labor of running clubs and running the federation is almost all volunteer.


A skating school/academy model at the local level or at training centers might be a valuable approach to make training more affordable for skaters interested in pursuing elite careers, or serious recreational careers seeing how far they personally can go. More skaters could go further/keep training longer if the economics were better.

But the specifics of the curriculum or what each skating school can offer would vary to some degree based on how much ice time is available in each location and what the economics and demographics of the area are in terms of what kinds of participants they can draw.

Also, if there's an ideal training and development plan for producing potential champions, should that be the only track available to provide lessons?

Would there still be room for recreational skaters who want to stick with less ambitious goals because they're not prepared to commit to daily training but still want to advance at a slower pace? Or who back off after realizing they're not going to make it to the top, or who started (or returned) in adolescence or adulthood rather than childhood and so are not on track for elite careers but still want to enjoy the sport and maybe maximize their own poteential?

If figure skating training exists only as an elite-track pursuit for potential champions who started in early childhood, the majority of US skaters would become unwelcome, and the numbers would no longer exist to sustain most clubs or to sustain figure skating ice time at most rinks.

 

[Tinami Amori]

P.S. Just for the record. Sambo-70 rink, where Eteri’s group trains, also has ice time issues, and often have to train with many other private lesson skaters and beginner groups, because Sambo/Kristalny rink IS commercial. Anyone wants to practice a Quad with all the little kids on the ice? http://xn---70-5cdf9dpu.xn--p1ai/file_handler.php?image=3841

When Putin congratulated Medvedeva at the official Olympic Reception, she made a serious face and after a quick “thank you” made an official request: On behalf of all our skaters we are asking to assist us with building a 2-field ice rink to help us better develop our sport”. It was all over the news….https://govoritmoskva.ru/news/152415/

And... for the record. for example Trusova has a financial sponsor, a corporation from her home town of Ryazan. This businessman helps financially many young promising athletes from Ryazan, even if they live in Moscow. Stanislav Podol, CEO of AgromolKombinat (Dairy Production corp).

I don't know what Westerners are imagining when they say "state-sponsored".

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

Nimi: You wrote

"Then there's also the fact that there are European countries (like mine) where private schooling is pretty rare and so is home-schooling, and the latter especially may be frowned upon -- i.e. there's a common sentiment that why would you let your kids focus primarily on their short-lived sporting career instead of making sure they take their actual education and grades seriously, that's reckless and "good" parents shouldn't allow that to happen (ETA: I probably should mention that in a country like Finland, the education system is in large part state-funded and even the higher education mostly tuition-free, and you primarily need good grades in high school and/or good performance in college/Uni intake exams to get in)"

If what you just wrote is how things are done in your country, I do believe I would fit in. Sounds like a very smart and well run country to me. I don't know as I could have expressed such sentiments as well as you did.

Finland, the best country for education...

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

The thing is if there is a fundamental system issue then it should affect all four disciplines equally. But it is affecting ladies more. Ice dance is fine. Perhaps it helps to not look at what other countries are doing, but what ice dancing training is doing right.
For instance, ice dance teams stick together since young and work out kinks and then there are training centers who teach kids the right things at a young age that caters to the IJS system in Michigan, Kentucky, etc.

Ice dancing is even more expensive. Why the USA have good results in ice dancing&? Because of great coaching. Great coachs make great success. Great coaches build a program. Great coaches scout for great talent.

 

[manhn]

But the US men are strong. Nathan has to be one of the favourites to win Worlds. So, the US men are just taking the great coaches away from the US women?

 

[Debbie S]

I do feel that in general, as a sport in the U.S., figure skating has very little structure organizationally. As a parent, it is not particularly easy to find information and get your questions answered. USFSA puts out general brochures about things, but there is no support beyond that. Like, for example, nowhere is there a list of competitions that take place in a geographic area for a given age level. (If there is such a list, I'm unaware of it.) Nor is there centralized information about what is entailed in all the different early levels in skating (I'm talking Basic 6, Basic 8, Pre-Free Skate, whatever). I suppose some of this info exists somewhere in the member area of the USFSA web site, but it's not easy to find. Then you also have weirdness with coaching information. Rinks provide lists of coaches on their web sites, but there is often no info about what sessions they teach on, what their rates are, are they accepting new students, etc.

Yes, it's true that parents are basically dependent on the coach to suggest competitions and steer them to a club. USFS does have a Parents tab/page on their website (http://www.usfigureskating.org/story?id=84093) and there is some basic material there about LTS and joining a club, plus some infographics on USFS test and comp structure. They've had some other infographics in the past that we've posted on our club bulletin board. Six years ago, marketing nerd that I am, created a brochure with basics about our club, what is a club, why join, and some other info on practice time and clothing, some of which I pulled from the USFS website. At the time, I was on the board and suggested that we create some kind of takeaway for LTS parents who would walk by our club ice check-ice table (one of our sessions starts right after LTS) and ask who we were and what we did. We do have a list of club coaches on our website, with a headshot and bio info they provided (including levels and disciplines taught) and their contact info. We don't post rates b/c rates change, and I think coaches generally don't like to publicize that. Questions about rates and scheduling/availability are best asked directly of the coach.

USFS does produce a book/pamphlet of the skills at each Basic Skills and Freeskate badge level; it's up to the LTS program to give them out to participants, and most do, I remember getting one when I started lessons. They used to have something up on their website; maybe they haven't updated it yet - the levels and elements were modified a bit last year (I agree, they should have something).

I think USFS leaves a lot for clubs to figure out - in many cases, they impose rules and then it's up to clubs to enforce and even simple things can get very political. They do offer club education workshops for board members to attend - I think they do about 5 a year around the country, but one obviously has to be near your area in order to attend. About 5 years ago, I and other board members attended one that was about an hour away. It was semi-helpful - most seemed designed to go over rules and regulations for clubs and our responsibilities, with some discussion of fundraising and membership retention, and volunteer recruitment. If your club signs up for National Skating Month, they send a packet of branded tchotchkes to give out, with some of their website infographics that you can copy and hand out. And I remember just before the Olys, they sent an e-mail (may have gone to all members) suggesting that clubs have a viewing party, and gave step by step instructions on how to plan one - I had to laugh at this...if a skating club can't plan a party, we're all in trouble, lol.

 

[brennele]

tinami, when the term "state-sponsored" is used, it means that the government and not the skater's parents pay for most, if not all, of the training. Governments have a good deal more money than do private individuals. If the two extremely talented young ladies from Russia were born in the US, talented and hardworking though they be, unless their parents could afford all of their skating expenses, they could not rise to the top. Within the US, there may be many people with the sort of talent and drive which could bring them a gold medal. We will never find them and we will never know about them because FS is simply too expensive. Instead of skating lessons, likely their parents found other, less costly, activities for their children to pursue. Perhaps they took piano lessons or maybe the boys joined Little League or the children got art lessons, guitar lessons, ballet lessons and/or joined the YMCA or literally any of dozens upon dozens of interesting activities suitable for children which are not nearly as expensive as skating.

By this point, most parents are on to the high cost of FS so they don't even let them start ice skating lessons in the first place. What's the point? The expense relative to other activities for child enrichment is high right from the get go. Instead, they channel the children into other directions. When it comes down to a need for parents working 2 and 3 jobs, denying other siblings any college funds and mortgaging their homes so as to pay for FS training and practice time, sanity has ceased to be in control. Skating has evolved into a richman's sport in the US. It so happens that we also have a lot of rich men in the US so some of them will, in fact, enroll their children to FS lessons (more likely their wives will do so) and a few will rise to the top so as to make it to the Olympics. There is an incredible amount of wealth in the US and some folks have more money than they know what to do with. We will still see some great US figure skaters - just not as many as Russia will have. NBD. I can be just as happy watching the Russian ladies or celebrating with the Japanese at Hanyu's incredible performance. The Japanese deserve some glory also. The US does not have to have it all. We have more than our share of goodies, all things considered. I do believe the US is the greatest country to have ever existed on the face of the earth......but having said that, it does not mean we have to always have all the greatest figure skaters. We can be happy for other countries. I for one have become a huge Hanyu fan. I am happy for the Japanese to have produced such a fine skater and such a fine human being. The folks in the US can absolutely enjoy the performance of these wonderful people from other countries; our own next great skater will come along soon enough. Meanwhile, I am enjoying being a Hanyu fan.

 

[DreamSkates]

Well good luck to all the ladies in the world after Trusova just won the Jr Grand Prix with THREE triple-triple combos and TWO QUADS.
In skating, I've wondered what's next - well here she is. Of course she is just 13 and likely to gain height and weight and time will tell if she can sustain this technical high.

 

[MacMadame]

It takes a lot of money for a US skater to become a top competitor, but for the most part no one is getting rich off those expenditures.

I think this is important to realize. There is a lot of volunteer labor that makes skating possible. And a lot of people who would like to make money (like rink owners), but mostly just make a living or it's a hobby or it's a loss leader for what they really want -- like a hockey team owning rinks in order to encourage new converts to hockey and nurture talent.

But the US men are strong. Nathan has to be one of the favourites to win Worlds. So, the US men are just taking the great coaches away from the US women?

The men are strong? Or one man is strong? Even small programs with almost no elite coaches produce a star once in a while. I think our Mens skaters aren't really any stronger than our Ladies skaters.

They do offer club education workshops for board members to attend - I think they do about 5 a year around the country, but one obviously has to be near your area in order to attend.

They used to offer them in conjunction with Governing Council. Hopefully, they still are.

 

[manhn]

One champion is enough. I am Canadian. We are used to huge gaps in our champs and those behind them.

 

[brennele]

Well said, manhn. The bottom line is that capitalism has many advantages as compared to ecconomic systems in other countries but producing FS champs is NOT one of the benefits of a society based on capitalism. We are just going to have to enjoy the fruits produced by countries which have systems which are favorable to producing elite skaters. I certainly would not want to give up all we have here under our system for the sake of producing more elite figure skaters. If other countries produce them, esp Russia and the Asian countries, we can enjoy watching these folks skate. We certainly love the food produced in Asian countries - many of us can't get enough sushi or Chinese food. There is absolutely no reason we can't also enjoy the wonderful skaters which come out of these same places. We will just have to wait until someone has enough money to produce another US - or in your case Canadian - elite skater. Meanwhile, I am cheering for Hanyu. Sushi is great and so is Hanyu. Looks like the Japanese know how to do a thing or two.

 

[manhn]

Canada and the US make up 2 of the medalists in the Team event, and there is a thread about how to make that event fairer for those other countries. So, not sure what these two countries are doing so wrong.

 

[mag]

Canada and the US make up 2 of the medalists in the Team event, and there is a thread about how to make that event fairer for those other countries. So, not sure what these two countries are doing so wrong.

Don’t you go throwing them there facts into this conversation. There is no room for that here.

 

[brennele]

manhn, I don't know as they are doing anything "wrong" per se but people like to see OG winners coming from their country. It is only natural and the US is not exactly producing a whole bunch of them these days. Certain other countries are and the reason is largely rooted in economics. It is simply too expensive to produce elite skaters here in the US. I cannot speak to Canada. Rather than piss and moan about it why not simply enjoy the skaters coming out of other countries where there are different systems for financing elite FS.

It is not like anything is going to change here. I live in northern PA where we have a hardiness zone of 5b - way too cold to grow mangos or citrus fruit. That scenario is not going to change and I like those kinds of fruits. So I purchase and enjoy these items which are produced elsewhere. Would it be nice to grow them in my own land. Sure but that is not going to happen. We are not ever going to see State-sponsored FS here so we are just going to have to wait until the next elite skater comes up the pipeline. I am not holding my breath. Team events are nice and so are bronze medals. It is all nice but gold is the best and unless Chen get his head screwed on straight over the next 4 years, I don't see that coming in 2022. Moreover, truth-be-told, I like Hanyu's humility and humanitarian attitude a lot better, anyway. That counts for much. For me, it is about who they are as much as what they do on the ice. Mastery combined with humility and humanitarianism is the way to go in my book.

 

[skateboy]

It is all nice but gold is the best and unless Chen get his head screwed on straight over the next 4 years, I don't see that coming in 2022. Moreover, truth-be-told, I like Hanyu's humility and humanitarian attitude a lot better, anyway.

Chen, at age 18, is still a relative newbie to seniors and has had far more success than not in a very short time (beating every top contender along the way), so I would hardly say his head is not screwed on straight.

I like Hanyu too, but I'm not sure where Chen's attitude is so far less humble... I suppose we all have our own opinions.

 

[brennele]

Skateboy, Oh it is much, much less humble. Before the whole debacle, Chen was coming across as rather arrogant in the various interviews he conducted. Don't get me wrong. I am not rooting for Chen to fail or anything like that but he definitely has issues with the psychological aspects of competing. He fell apart in the 2018 Olympics and it was more a function of what was in his head than his body. He got psyched out, as it were, by the whole thing and esp by the prospect of going up against Hanyu. He needs to work on his mental attitude as much as on his body (meaning his skating) and he very much needs to learn how to conduct interview so he does not come across as arrogant. Part of Hanyu's appeal is how he comes across when interviewed. I certainly want to see Chen succeed but he has one heck of a lot of work to do and it is not all about the physics of skating. There is more to it than that.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Q: American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

A: Team Eteri happened.

 

[ZilphaK]

Maybe also select a group but base it on work ethic rather than “talent.”

Yes, my definitions of "talent" as far as skating goes would be comprehensive.

I think you'd be able to tell by 8 or 9 years old the kids who are "coachable" (a huge focus in all youth sports these days), who are already organizing their practices well on their own and not wasting time, athletically astute i.e have good body awareness, possibly across a number of sports, who are passionate about perfection (although, taken to an extreme, that can be detrimental), and not necessarily always even-tempered, but kids who can bounce back quickly from disappointment.

An "innate gift" for skating skills is a small part of all that. Although, teaching Learn To Skate, if a parent tells me their kid is enthusiastic about some other sport -- skiing, gymnastics, even soccer -- but has never been on skates before, I can almost guarantee the kid can be started at Basic 2 and will probably pass through to 3 after a few weeks. Not just assuming the kid is athletically talented, but that they are already used to practice and training and understanding that skills are learned/built on.

I also think that it's hard to look at skaters who "have been" and make determinations about skaters who "could be." I've seen skaters who have all of the above, but who honestly weren't in a good coaching match. I do wonder whether having "the right coach" from the beginning could have made a difference, not only in the kid's skill progression, but in overall attitude and love of skating. I'm not minimizing how hard it is to coach any kid -- parenting them is hard enough -- but there are gifted coaches who know when to push and challenge, when to keep a kid in the right place at the right time to meet goals and build confidence, and know how not to take tween/teen moods personally. And who know how to keep parents sane.

 

[Meoima]

If Americans want to get attention back to FS, they need star ladies, not men. I have to say this sport has always been like this, the ladies attract the most attention, huge deal and all. Image Zagitova were American... wow... she would become an international star like Kwan did.